Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Lets collect all thoughts into one thread.
- There is a 25 GP threshold involved, where all items above that need to be listed in the ITS. Any item that is 1 cp to 24 GP does not need to be listed.
- No need for a GM to initial or sign the Inventory Tracking Sheet because the GM should have initialed each purchase on the Chronicle sheet. (Source here)
- You can use multiple tracking sheets, and have each one represent a different set of items (Mundane items, alchemical items, ammunition) if you'd like. (Source here)
- It can be completed before, during, or after a game session.
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Lets collect all thoughts into one thread.
- There is a 25 GP threshold involved, where all items above that need to be listed in the ITS. Any item that is 1 cp to 24 GP does not need to be listed.
- No need for a GM to initial the Inventory Tracking Sheet because the GM should have initialed each purchase on the Chronicle sheet. (Source here)
- You can use multiple tracking sheets, and have each one represent a different set of items (Mundane items, alchemical items, ammunition) if you'd like. (Source here)
Thank you
If we duplicate the form format exactly can we use word or excel to create these sheets?
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Just so I'm clear on how this is supposed to work.
August 14th rolls around and I play a game with Alex GMing. I currently have no ITS. Instead of my current practice of purchasing at home and adding the purchases to this sheet, Alex would fill out the chronicle sheet completely and I would not add anything to it later.
After this I go home, dream of ways to kill Kyle's goblin and fill out my inventory tracking sheet with goblin bane arrows.
At my next game Betsy hands me the chronicle sheet, I add my arrows to it and hand it and my ITS back to Betsy. Betsy makes sure things match and that I have remembered that I have to buy the bane arrows 50 at a time.
Seeing that things are correct she signs off on the chronicle sheet.
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Personally I would like to be able to utilize one tracking sheet for several chronicles worth of purchases. (Does it really make sense to print out a 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper to track the purchase of only one or two items?)
You could (and for a few of my characters I already do) track an entire career's worth of purchases on a single sheet of loose leaf paper. To have to expand that to 6 to 12 sheets for each of my characters just seems wasteful to me.
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I know I've posted this fifteen thousand times in other threads, but I'm going to post it here.
The elephant in the room.
Lots-- probably most-- groups aren't doing the accounting that they're supposed to do right now. At the beginning of the game, GMs almost never look at character sheets or chronicle sheets. At the end of the game, GMs hand out chronicle sheets that are already signed, with only the grey ("GM only") boxes filled out, and maybe the player name and player PFS number.
As such -- this whole business of initialing every purchase on the chronicle sheet is already not being done, and indeed GMs aren't even looking at what players are doing right now. I didn't realize GMs were supposed to initial individual purchase right now, but if they are it's certainly not happening. What I thought was supposed to happen was that the GM signature at the bottom would happen only once the purchase section had been filled out, and that signature was enough. But, even then, most GMs are not doing this!
As such, all these changes (the ITS sheet, the standards for when things can be signed), while it might help the system as designed, does nothing to address the reality of PFS out there, that people already aren't doing the paperwork they're supposed to be doing. In practice, this just adds more paperwork that people are supposed to do that, yes, would make it easier for GMs to audit, if GMs actually did that (and a few do, but it's the exception).
What is going to be done to deal with the real issue, that the tracking is already not being done? Adding more things to do doesn't address that!
There's another question. If you're a player who wants it done right, but GMs just give you chronicle sheets that are pre-signed and aren't interested in seeing your purchases, how do you ever legally do purchases? You have to somehow talk a GM into initialing things, but if the GM is one who just hands out pre-signed chronicle sheets, you're screwed. As long as you only play with lax GMs, you're fine, but the first time you get a GM who does it right, you're screwed because all the previous GMs didn't give you the signatures you needed to play legally.
This is an even bigger problem online. In person, in principle, you could write your purchases on the previous sheet (I guess?), and, at the table, slide that sheet in front of the new GM with a pen and convince him to initial it. Some GMs will volunteer to do this, and that's great, but I predict, again based on current practice of not doing the paperwork, that most GMs will be annoyed by this. Do you really want to be annoying your GM at the beginning of a session?
But, OK, fine, in person, it's not that hard. Online, it's much more painful. You have to send the sheets back and forth through email, and wait for the signatures. You have files in a format that works for you (PDF files at the right resolution, whatever), but now the GM is reading and writing it, and image qualities will degrade, and they may use software that screws up your format. Or whatever. Again, I'm assuming this is not the sheet the GM hands out at the end of the game-- which, as I've stated, will be mostly blank and presigned-- but the previous chronicle sheet you got from a different GM on which you've written your new purchases. This is a major hassle for the well-intentioned.... But, again, the [i]elephant in the room[/b] is that already people aren't doing the checking they're supposed to do before signing, and adding another sheet isn't going to do anything to change that.
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Personally I would like to be able to utilize one tracking sheet for several chronicles worth of purchases. (Does it really make sense to print out a 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper to track the purchase of only one or two items?)
You could (and for a few of my characters I already do) track an entire career's worth of purchases on a single sheet of loose leaf paper. To have to expand that to 6 to 12 sheets for each of my characters just seems wasteful to me.
That is already the intention. You keep adding purchases to your sheet until it is full and then you would start another one. You fill in your chronicle number (not the scenario number) in the appropriate box for bought, sold or expended.
I just went back and retroactively filled one of these in for a 7th level character. It took about 10-15 minutes and filled almost the whole sheet.
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By the way, instead of just complaining, let me propose a solution.
The situation is, right now we have GMs signing off only on the gold, experience, and prestige earned in a scenario, but not on purchases. Let's assume that that is all that we're ever going to be able to get GMs reliably to do. Thus, we have to remove the assumption that GMs are going to sign off on purchases.
Second, we want to have clear accounting records so that the GM who does choose to audit a player's build and equipment is able to do so with a minimum of pain.
The way to do that is, first, to eliminate the purchase section from the chronicle sheet, and eliminate the need to write or initial purchases on chronicle sheets. Make it explicit that players doing purchases isn't something that requires individual GM signatures or approval. They have to be completely transparent about it, so that if a GM wants later to figure out what they bought and when, that GM can figure out if the player did it right. But there's no need for a GM to approve each and every little step. In practice, GMs aren't checking that right now, and if it's not being done, it's not useful, so let's just drop it from the rules.
Next. Change the ITS a little bit. Each line can almost be as it is. However, there also needs to be the possibility to add "Gold earned in scenario" and "Gold expended in scenario", instead of just inventory.
Players, when they create a new character, write down "Misc Starting Equipment" on one line, with additional lines for individual items worth 25gp or more.
At the end of that scenario, they add lines for gold spent. They then add a "Gold Earned in Scenario" line, which can include the day job and be copied from the chronicle sheet. At the very right, perhaps, add a column for "total current gold", so that players can track how much total gold they have after purchases and so forth.
On previous lines, if they expended any of the items in the scenario, or used up charges, or whatever, they update those lines above with chronicle number for this scenario in which the item was expended. Or they check off charge boxes. Or whatever.
On subsequent lines, they add additional equipment purchased. They can do this, on their own, in between scenarios. There's no need for GMs to sign off on it.
The next scenario, the GM can look things over, make sure it all makes sense. At the end of that scenario, again, add to the ITS gold spent and gold earned.
And so forth.
In the end, we have an accounting system that really isn't too hard to use. It doesn't have redudant things in multiple places (chronicle sheets and ITS), with the opening potential for confusion and errors that that introduces. It doesn't require GMs to sign off on each and every purchase (which most GMs don't do anyway, and won't do). It codifies that it's OK for GMs to do what GMs are doing anyway, pass out signed chronicle sheets that give the players what they got in that scenario, without having the GM to verify all sorts of ancillary accounting. However, it does provide enough accounting that a GM can quickly check that the player hasn't made mistakes.
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Ok, Mike there is bunch of threads on this and I have not gone through all of them, so you may have answered this already.
I have a question. I understand the Tracking sheet is Mandatory, but some of us have horrendous hand writing and using the form as is will not work for them (<----me). Since we are not making GM initials mandatory anymore can we please allow Custom version of the sheet as long as they provide all the same information so they can be done and update electronically? Or release a Fully Form-fillable version?
It should be treated the same as the Character sheet in that manner, we don't have to use the official version in the guide but can use our own version as long as it has all the same info (Herolabs as an example for the character sheet)
Edit: Also allowing this would allow me to add a request to Lone Wolf to add the capability for tracking purchases into their program since it is mandatory for PFS and if you allow custom versions i could use theirs if they added the ability.
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The intent is that you will only go to a second sheet when the first is full. That is why the chronicle # box is there, to mark which chronicle the purchase was on.
And when a particular sheet has everything expended - you no longer have to bring it along with your character .
A reason to keep permanent items on their own page.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Ok, Mike there is bunch of threads on this and I have not gone through all of them, so you may have answered this already.
I have a question. I understand the Tracking sheet is Mandatory, but some of us have horrendous hand writing and using the form as is will not work for them (<----me). Since we are not making GM initials mandatory anymore can we please allow Custom version of the sheet as long as they provide all the same information so they can be done and update electronically? Or release a Fully Form-fillable version?
It should be treated the same as the Character sheet in that manner, we don't have to use the official version in the guide but can use our own version as long as it has all the same info (Herolabs as an example)
There will be a form fillable sheet posted at some point.
The original post was lost in the merging of some threads, I think. But here's the quote.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Since we have to write the purchases on the individual Chronicles anyway, what purpose does the ITS serve at all?
It allows for easier tracking of consumables by Players and confirmation by GMs that accurate tracking is occurring when someone has used 15 weapon blanches or 40 alchemical items or 35 charges from a wand in one scenario.
It allows GMs, if they want to audit a character, have a quick reference of what equipment came from what chronicle instead of having to flip through every Chronicle until they find it, thus speeding up game play.
It allows a convenient method for purchases made between scenarios, after a game is over when no one has time to place purchases on the last Chronicle, to be notated on the next Chronicle by the next GM.
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Since we have to write the purchases on the individual Chronicles anyway, what purpose does the ITS serve at all?My guess is to have it on one source instead of multiple so it will be easier for GMs to Audit purchases.
Mike has already said that we don't need to write the items on the chronicle sheets any more. You list your items purchased on the ITS, and use the chronicle to tally the total cash.
It sounds like the section at the bottom for items bought/sold will be shrinking/disappearing on season 5 chronicles, and only be used for conditions, alignment warnings, or other notes.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Why do you not need to list things below 25gp? I would think if you're trying to audit and inventory, you'd want everything.
The only potential problem I can see with how you've laid it out now is for scenarios that say 'the PCs don't have time for any shopping before the mission'. My understanding is that these pre-purchases would not be subject to this limitation, as they are actually between the scenarios and just being administratively noted during this session. But some wordage to that effect might be helpful.
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There will be a form fillable sheet posted at some point.
The original post was lost in the merging of some threads, I think. But here's the quote.
If an electronically prepared version is ok why limit it to form filable? Half the time I can fill the form just not save it filled. If one can duplicate the format using word, excel, pagemaker, etc why would that be a problem.
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Mike has already said that we don't need to write the items on the chronicle sheets any more. You list your items purchased on the ITS, and use the chronicle to tally the total cash.Since we have to write the purchases on the individual Chronicles anyway, what purpose does the ITS serve at all?My guess is to have it on one source instead of multiple so it will be easier for GMs to Audit purchases.
What? No he hasn't. See point 2 in the OP, and the post it links to.
Edit: And, for that matter, his post immediately above yours.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Why do you not need to list things below 25gp? I would think if you're trying to audit and inventory, you'd want everything.
The only potential problem I can see with how you've laid it out now is for scenarios that say 'the PCs don't have time for any shopping before the mission'. My understanding is that these pre-purchases would not be subject to this limitation, as they are actually between the scenarios and just being administratively noted during this session. But some wordage to that effect might be helpful.
Because if we require people to list every candle, piece of chalk, et al. It would become too cumbersome. Not having these CP and SP items listed will only cause a variance of a few hundred gold at most, over 12 levels.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Ok folks, feel free to debate semantics, merits, or whatever you like in regard to the ITS. People wanted a merged topic so this does that. It's my day off. I will visit this thread tomorrow. Have a great day. I'm going to play golf and then watch my Falcons.
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I highly support this idea - I have a high-level caster whom has an assortment of wands, and 6 slots to track wands is not going to cut it. I can see that character needing 3 to 5 tracking sheets for just wands:
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I highly recommend having 2-3 versions of the tracking sheet:
(a) version that documents permanent magic items
(b) version that documents single-use consumables, with possible setup to track quantities ("acid flask" should be a single line item, not one line item for each acid flask)
(c) version to track multi-use items (such as wands and scrolls with multiple spells
- all versions should be editable, so we can do this at home, and type it in for legibility.
- all versions should have a column for rules source (book and page #) for ease of audit and reference.
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In the old Living Greyhawk campaign, you could use PDF forms, and it had a reference number to the adventure record you purchased the magic item on it, but had to have a previous (or previous forms) that were signed as a track of what you had previously. I prefer a PDF form, as it is just cleaner to look at and view.
Secondly, why not simplify the rules of what needs to be tracked more than a gp limit? It seems the concerns are magic items, consumables of all sorts, and unique items, the concern not necessarily mundane items. Make the list of what needs to be recorded the following:
* Masterwork Gear
* Gear Made of a Special Material
* Permanent Magic Items
* Consumables, including Alchemical, Poisons, Potions, Scrolls, Wands, Etc
Do you really want to clutter a tracking sheet with mundane weapons and armor? Have to write down a greatsword, plate mail, chain mail, and other mundane equipment on these sheets? Having the purchased written down, as per the old rules, on a adventure record seems good enough and acceptable. That, and the four items above cover 10 gp acid flasks and 2 gp cold iron arrows, if tracking these items is a concern.
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Mike has already said that we don't need to write the items on the chronicle sheets any more. You list your items purchased on the ITS, and use the chronicle to tally the total cash.Since we have to write the purchases on the individual Chronicles anyway, what purpose does the ITS serve at all?My guess is to have it on one source instead of multiple so it will be easier for GMs to Audit purchases.What? No he hasn't. See point 2 in the OP, and the post it links to.
Edit: And, for that matter, his post immediately above yours.
It was something he said very early in the threads debating all this stuff, like two days ago. I'm not sure if everyone ignoring that statement since then is because that decision's been reversed, or what. But I specifically asked about the need to list out every single item purchased on both the ITS and the chronicle, and was told that they would just be on the ITS.
Just searched and found it
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Mike has already said that we don't need to write the items on the chronicle sheets any more. You list your items purchased on the ITS, and use the chronicle to tally the total cash.Since we have to write the purchases on the individual Chronicles anyway, what purpose does the ITS serve at all?My guess is to have it on one source instead of multiple so it will be easier for GMs to Audit purchases.What? No he hasn't. See point 2 in the OP, and the post it links to.
Edit: And, for that matter, his post immediately above yours.
It was something he said very early in the threads debating all this stuff, like two days ago. I'm not sure if everyone ignoring that statement since then is because that decision's been reversed, or what. But I specifically asked about the need to list out every single item purchased on both the ITS and the chronicle, and was told that they would just be on the ITS.
Just searched and found it
You still need to write it on the chronicle sheet, it is just that there won't be an area specifically for purchases and sales. There will be a general notes section that you write it in now.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I think it would benefit a lot of players if a sample ITS could be posted somewhere. I know I didn't realize when I first looked at it that the boxes were where you put the chronicle number for the purchases/selling/expending. I understand it now, but some could easily not understand it.
I think what would help is to see an example of a season 5 chronicle sheet.
Paizo could edit out the spoiler info as needed, but it would be nice to see how at least the bottom of the sheet is now designed, as well as any change in design of the boxes on the right, if changes were made.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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I think what would help is to see an example of a season 5 chronicle sheet.
Paizo could edit out the spoiler info as needed, but it would be nice to see how at least the bottom of the sheet is now designed, as well as any change in design of the boxes on the right, if changes were made.
There is an example at the back of the new Guide to Organized Play on page 35. It's not a full-sized version, but gives you an idea of what the typical Season 5 Chronicle Sheet may look like.
I missed that, will need to take a look at it when I get home.
Thanks!
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I think it would benefit a lot of players if a sample ITS could be posted somewhere. I know I didn't realize when I first looked at it that the boxes were where you put the chronicle number for the purchases/selling/expending. I understand it now, but some could easily not understand it.
I've been meaning to ask for this also.
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Kyle has played with the ITS and made a couple of variants, they can be found Go to here.
I would like to see these added to as additional templates for the ITS.
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Why is more paperwork even being considered? Why? If I wanted spreadsheets and accounting, I'd go back to playing EvE Online.
I understand the necessity to keep players honest, but at the same time I will tell you I don't even bother to check what my players purchase most of the time. They understand the Fame limits to what they can purchase, and they understand the consumables are used and to mark that down. They mark the charges in Wands down when they are used, and they are very good about asking questions if they need to. But adding more paperwork, however miniscule it may seem, is just another piece of paper we have to print and carry around, to look over before and after each scenario . We start at around 1800 and end around 2000, with a thirty minute drive home. Not all my players can even be in before 1800, too, with work and stuff. Do I prevent them from playing for having a real life and needing to do stuff because I can't check X, Y, and Z?
EDIT:
While I don't check, my players generally take note of what they buy and figure calculations in. They take note of their gold spent compared to gold on hand, and other things like that. I don't need to check when I have players like that.
I get that not everyone is lucky to have the same players week after week, but once again it's still more paperwork that needs to be filled out. Players might have time during the week to do it, but GMs generally don't have it after or before scenarios if they're like me.
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Mike, one quick question. But first, enjoy your day off and the game.
For existing characters, I know it is not required to list purchases prior to Aug 14, but if I were to implement the sheet for an existing character would just listing the current equipment held by the PC suffice or would I need to list ALL items owned and sold/expended up to this point?
I see the benefit to having a tracking sheet overall, but would prefer to just list what I actually have on the PC at the time the sheets become mandatory so as to minimize excess sheets and to help expedite the transfer (so I'm not spending 20-30 minutes per PC to accomplish it).
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Why is more paperwork even being considered? Why? If I wanted spreadsheets and accounting, I'd go back to playing EvE Online.
The whole point of the ITS was to respond to the feedback received regarding the 'cramped' area for purchases on a chronicle, to help facilitate GM audits should they occur, and to open the chronicle up to have more room for cool boons, unique items and a GM/Players notes section to add even more flavor to the game.
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Ideally, the ITS should replace the items purchased/sold section at the bottom of chronicles, and allow for tracking of consumables on the ITS instead of on individual character sheets. That's it. If it just replaces other paperwork, puts everything all in one place that's easy to use, and doesn't create redundant paperwork, then it's a good thing. I'm still waiting to see for sure whether that's the case.
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Mike, one quick question. But first, enjoy your day off and the game.
For existing characters, I know it is not required to list purchases prior to Aug 14, but if I were to implement the sheet for an existing character would just listing the current equipment held by the PC suffice or would I need to list ALL items owned and sold/expended up to this point?
I see the benefit to having a tracking sheet overall, but would prefer to just list what I actually have on the PC at the time the sheets become mandatory so as to minimize excess sheets and to help expedite the transfer (so I'm not spending 20-30 minutes per PC to accomplish it).
While I'm not Mike,
what I did was to just put a "Start" line with the total GP from the last chronicle... then as I was making purchases wrote them down and then did a "total" line.
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And that's a good goal. I applaud Paizo's interest in responding to player feedback. One way to address it would be to drop inventory-tracking entirely, freeing up lots of room on the chronicle sheet and skip the addition of a new form to fill out.
I guess I'm curious what problem is being solved with GM review and approval for equipment purchases?
The requirement for tracking resources will never go away... one can never have the endless bag of bullets.
However, there wasn't a lot of room with the 5 mini lines to accurately track and have it be legible... this is just a matter of making things (hopefully) a little easier I would assume.
It's all a matter of what the final implementation of it ends up to be.
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Ideally, the ITS should replace the items purchased/sold section at the bottom of chronicles, and allow for tracking of consumables on the ITS instead of on individual character sheets. That's it. If it just replaces other paperwork, puts everything all in one place that's easy to use, and doesn't create redundant paperwork, then it's a good thing. I'm still waiting to see for sure whether that's the case.
My problem is this is only exacerbating an issue that may seem small and simple to the Paizo employees who run Society, but the GMs are goin g to see a real problem. Ink is not exactly cheap, and with the rate I use it for projects and other paperwork for the Marines, it's not something I can be replacing every week (that's an exaggeration, but it's common for me to replace it). Seven-ish pages may not seem like much, but consider also that we are printing out the physical copy of the scenario/module as well, as well as seven-ish copies of the Chronicle sheets as well.
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Ideally, the ITS should replace the items purchased/sold section at the bottom of chronicles, and allow for tracking of consumables on the ITS instead of on individual character sheets. That's it. If it just replaces other paperwork, puts everything all in one place that's easy to use, and doesn't create redundant paperwork, then it's a good thing. I'm still waiting to see for sure whether that's the case.My problem is this is only exacerbating an issue that may seem small and simple to the Paizo employees who run Society, but the GMs are goin g to see a real problem. Ink is not exactly cheap, and with the rate I use it for projects and other paperwork for the Marines, it's not something I can be replacing every week (that's an exaggeration, but it's common for me to replace it). Seven-ish pages may not seem like much, but consider also that we are printing out the physical copy of the scenario/module as well, as well as seven-ish copies of the Chronicle sheets as well.
You shouldn't have to print out the ITS for anything other than your characters. Unless you're the coordinator for your area, more than likely the coordinator will have a couple of extra (or should) with them if a player doesn't have any.
I'm confused as to what exactly you're saying.
Seven-ish pages may not seem like much, but consider also that we are printing out the physical copy of the scenario/module as well, as well as seven-ish copies of the Chronicle sheets as well.
Why would you be printing out sevenish ITSs for every game? You keep using the one that you have until you fill it, then you start another one.
Also, is there any reason why your players can't print their own?