Hello,
I am making a Gnome Paladin of Shelyn as my first pathfinder society character. I am a little worried about roleplaying a paladin, but they are too cool not to try out.
Furthermore the Gnome Lv 1 Paladin
Str 13
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 16
First feat: Power Attack
Racial Abilities: Swap for the Languages ability.
Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Linguistics and (Favored class bonus) Profession: Tailor.
Weapon: Glaive. Backup bow and Mace with shield
Traits: Reactionary? ???
That's what I have, but I am more worried about the roleplay than the numbers. I don't want to be a downer. I picture Furthermore the paladin to be able to "detect ugly" rather than evil. Very concerned with inner beauty. Complimentary, as in giving compliments, to all the other characters at the table. Are there pitfalls I should worry about?
Also, I don't know much about these factions. It looks like the Silver one is the only one a paladin could join. And traits are confusing. I would like to boost my initiative but don't know what else. So that's that. Any advice helps, thanks. I start Sunday hopefully.
I know you said you're more concerned about roleplay than numbers, that's a great attitude to have... but still, you might want to have your strength a little higher. Paladins are sort of relied on as being a heavy combat class, and a STR of 13 is a little low.
And really, Profession: Tailor is going to be absolutely no good for you, sorry. If you want it for roleplay, take 1 rank. You don't need to continue to put ranks into it.
As far as traits go, doesn't much matter. Are there any skills that you wish were on your class skill list? There's probably a trait out there to make almost any skill into a class skill for you.
You might at least *consider* being a bard instead of a Paladin. It would be better with your current statline, and it would turn you into more of a team player and less of a frontline fighter. You could still be a devotee of Shelyn, and you could still use the glaive as your weapon if you used a feat to do it. You could take preform (oratory) and inspire your allies to acts of greatness by telling them how wonderful they are. Or sing them love songs if you'd rather.
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Talk of optimization aside, don't worry about role playing him. In my experience putting thought into how to role play your character and acting how you think they would act is enough. A paladin would obviously only break their code in extreme circumstances. As long as you respect the class, work with your team to do things in a way that your character wouldn't be opposed to, and yes, take the SC faction, you should be fine. Your DMs are not out to get you. A good DM will never let you get into a situation where you have to break your atonement, you would have to trap yourself there.
On to the build itself. I would lower Con to 14, or dip Wis to 7, and try to get strength to 16. You shouldn't need more than that, but it really helps to have that bump to hit. I would also suggest the SC "A Sure Thing" faction trait. In between that, Smite, charge, and my Scabbard of Vigor, my paladin at 3rd level usually has anywhere from +14-+18 to hit the BBEG. Having near guaranteed, consistent damage is one of the cornerstones of a paladin in my mind.
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Sounds like a wonderful character to play!
I second the other folks here in suggesting a bit more strength. With 13 strength, your glaive will be +1 to hit and +1 for damage. With Power Attack, that will be +0 to hit and +3 damage. With 14 strength, that would be improved to +2 to hit, +3 damage, or +1 to hit and +6 damage when power attacking.
Another alternate gnomish racial ability you might look into is Darkvision. When a demon casts a darkness spell, it's handy to be able to see through it! Eternal Hope is also very powerful, and sounds like it would fit your character well.
Silver Crusade is a great choice for a paladin. Other factions might, at some point, issue orders that you cannot in good conscience follow. There are also TWO potentially useful traits available to members of the Silver Crusade.
A Sure Thing: Once per day, you gain a +2 bonus on a
single attack roll against an evil-aligned creature. If the
creature is not evil-aligned, this ability is wasted with
no benefit.
Beneficent Touch: Once per day, when you cast a spell
or use a class ability that heals hit point damage, reroll
any 1s that appear on the dice and take the new roll (even
if it is another 1).
As a paladin, you will end up rolling many d6's for lay on hands. If you are fighting a terrifying pitspawn, which blasts you for 40 damage, and you lay on hands to heal yourself for 5d6 (which turn out to have 3 1's, a 3, and a 4), this trait could save your life.
Another very useful trait is 'Dangerously Curious', which fits well for gnomes! It makes Use Magic Device a class skill. This is an incredibly powerful ability, and is based on Charisma. A wand of any level 1 spell is only 2PP (which you typically earn in one session). Now, you can always use wands of paladin spells, and you should buy a Cure Light Wounds wand ASAP. But this skill lets you use a wand for ANY spell! Would you like to use a longstrider wand for an hour of +10 movement speed? How about a wand of Shield for 1 minute of +4 AC?
Here is some information about paladins of the Songbird and their Oath:
Paladins of Shelyn are peaceable promoters of art and beauty. They see the ugliness in evil, even when cloaked in the form of beauty, and their job is to prevent the weak and foolish from being seduced by false promises. Their tenets include:
* I am peaceful. I come first with a rose. I act to prevent conflict before it blossoms.
* I never strike first, unless it is the only way to protect the innocent.
* I accept surrender if my opponent can be redeemed—and I never assume that they cannot be. All things that live love beauty, and I will show beauty's answer to them.
* I will never destroy a work of art, nor allow one to come to harm unless greater art arises from its loss. I will only sacrifice art if doing so allows me to save a life, for untold beauty can arise from an awakened soul.
* I see beauty in others. As a rough stone hides a diamond, a drab face may hide the heart of a saint.
* I lead by example, not with my blade. Where my blade passes, a life is cut short, and the world's potential for beauty is lessened.
* I live my life as art. I will choose an art and perfect it. When I have mastered it, I will choose another. The works I leave behind make life richer for those who follow.
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As long as you don't get too hung up on the oath and play like a complete d-bag, I think they can be lots of fun. Once the others see you are not playing Lawful Stupid, you are a welcome addition.
Since the GM's did not create their own personal world and pantheon, it is very rare for anyone to give you a lot of hassle over niggly details on your oath.
There are 3 normal primary roles for the paladin in combat.
1) THW main damage dealer. If you are trying for that, I would suggest raising your strength.
2) Archer main damage dealer. With a 10 dex, I don't think you are interested in this.
3) Tank damage absorber. You still need to do enough damage that foes can't just ignore you. I would try to do at least 14 str to get that +2. I would suggest dropping wisdom since your saves are going to be good anyway.
Silver Crusade is pretty much the faction for paladins. Though I have heard of them in Grand Lodge and Andoran. But those will tend to get a fair number of faction missions that conflict with the oath. (I've also seen one in Lantern Lodge, but it is going away in a couple weeks.)
As keerawa said, A Sure Thing or Benificient Touch are probably the 2 best faction traits for you.
Thanks for the inputs!
Here's two possible stat arrays:
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 7
Cha: 15
or
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 15
Int: 13
Wis: 9
Cha: 16
I am trying for melee combat, so I think I'll stick with the latter.
I could go for Archery. In which case:
Str: 10
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 16
And then I'd use the Divine Hunter Archetype... but I'd rather use a reach weapon.
I think I could go with the 2nd list. 6 damage on a power attack is lots better than 4. I want Int 13 so I can take Unsaction Knowledge for some out of class spells.
Both of those traits are very cool! I may just flip a coin between them. I don't need a special book to use them, do I?
New Skills: Diplomacy, UMD, Sense Motive
Favored class: Extra hit points
New Racial Abilities: Eternal Hope, magical linguist, darkvision
Traits: Dangrously Curious, A Sure Thing
Feat: Power attack.
Thanks for the help! Those roleplay things are giving me something to chew on. I am not as worried now. Never played a paladin before and always wanted to, but my homegame group usually has at least one evil character in it.
Edit: A more practical question, how do I get my character on here (the website) and registered? I have the number, just not sure what to do with it.
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To regester your PC, click on 'My Account' at the top of this page.
About the 4th block down is a window to add PFS characters. Just follow the directions. It's pretty easy.
I don't like a bunch of odd numbers on my attibutes. I don't feel like I'm getting full value for them. Sometimes you need it to qualify for a feat. But then I will usually go ahead and increase it to the next even number. Remember, except for special events PFS chars basically retire when they reach level 12 (I've never gotten there though since I have 4 low level characters). So you will get a +1 at 4th and 8th level and I believe all the stat enhancing items give an even bonus.
I would probably go with something like:
Str 14 (16-2), Dex 12, Con 14 (12+2), Int 14, Wis 7, Cha 16 (14+2)
A str of 16 is difficult to do with a gnome's str penalty and still have many points left over for other abilities unless you want 2 dump stats which I rarely recommend. Probably something like:
Str 16 (18-2), Dex 8, Con 14 (12+2), Int 14, Wis 7, Cha 14 (12+2)
Then rely on eventual full plate to make up for the low dex.
Both rely on the paladin cha saves to bring up their save bonus.
You are supposed to have a copy of any material which you are using for your build.
When I post a build on these boards. I usually say what feats and other choices I will be making for at least the first several levels.
I do like Unsanctioned Knowledge. Paladins don't get a huge number of spells each day to really make great use of it. But still very good.
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Don't go too hog wild on equipment at first. My general recommendations are as follows:
A set of hide armor, heavy wooden shield, morning star, dagger, javelin, and potion of cure light wounds. (That last is for someone to pour down your throat if you go into the negatives. There might not be a healer present.)
That is usually sufficient to get you through the first scenario.
Save some money until you hear the mission breifing. You may need to pay for a boat ride to someplace, cold weather gear if heading into the mountains, vial of holy water if haunted church, etc...
Then after the mission briefing and you've bought everything else you need, then you could upgrade to a halberd if desired.
Also good to keep a few vials of acid/fire to use on swarms which can be incredibly difficult to get past at low levels.
First 2 prestige points buy a wand of cure light wounds.
Second 2 prestige points but a strength rated masterwork composite bow.
Use your cash from the first few scenarios to buy decent masterwork armor and a masterwork weapon.
Buy a scroll of magic weapon and some weapon blanches to use on arrows for creatures with damage reduction.
Always keep a cure X wounds potion and a lesser restoration potion/scroll for emergencies.
That should be good to about 3rd level when you can start thinking about what your eventual gear should look like.
Maybe you eventually want an adamantine long hammer and mithral full plate that you can later get enchanted.
As always, check back on the forums if you have more questions.
OP, you may occasionally hear or read the term "lawful stupid" in regards to roleplaying paladins
there are a bunch of lonnnnnng threads here on the forums on that subject
it may help you to read some of them to get a better idea of some of the potential pitfalls of paladin roleplaying, if you have not already
good luck and have fun!
Whether your roleplaying becomes a problem or not could really be up for table variation. A friend of mine uses blade of mercy/enforcer so he never actually goes out of his way to kill things. One time a group tried to argue he should fall because he didn't kill a hell knight, and another time because he took an infernal healing while unconscious. I've also seen people try to tell him how to play his character, regardless of whether they were players, behind the GM screen, or those creepers watching from outside of the table. In PFS where you can't talk with your GM and you don't have static players its a little more difficult to put up with people sometimes.
As for PFS factions, Silver Crusade isn't your only option. Andoran, Qadira, Osirion, and the old standby Grand Lodge are all compatible with a paladin for the most part (nobody said a LG character can't still be greedy).
Those other factions all have missions where you assassinate people though. Cold blooded murder sort of assassination. That might bring up an issue. You can pick anyone sure, even Scarzini, but how that goes down could be less than fun.
Remember the PFS Guide clearly states:
Characters who commit potentially evil acts (casting spells with the Evil descriptor, killing or maiming someone, etc.) while following specific orders from their faction or the Pathfinder Society, do not suffer alignment infractions. These are cases where karma applies to those making the orders, not their tools.As well as:
If you have a great idea for a paladin of the Cheliax faction, then play that character. Just know that you might have a harder time than most achieving the faction’s notoriously diabolical missions.
Actually... Micheal Brock thinks paladins deserve to have a hard time. Not a big fan of him, but if I remember correctly that ruling still stands. Personally I always thought the rules you linked were for uniformity and ease of play, but I guess paladin players still deserve a kick in the balls for being paladins.
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I tend to agree with Mike Brock on that one. Letting neutral PCs get away with evil acts for a faction mission is one thing. Letting PCs ignore their religious code (this applies to clerics and inquisitors just as much as paladins) is another.
For a paladin, Silver Crusade is the safest faction. If you join Andoran, you might occasionally be asked to assassinate an evil person, which is unlawful and unpaladin-like, even if it's still arguably a "good" act. Most of the time, those bad guys you're asked to kill end up being the main bad guy of the scenario who your party would kill anyway, so your faction mission will be easy. But occasionally, you may have to refuse to do it.
I wouldn't join Cheliax or Sczarni with a paladin, because you'll have to refuse a lot of faction missions, but the others should be safe at least 90% of the time.
Ironically, I have seen one Silver Crusade faction mission that worshipers of Shelyn might have a problem with. Each player will have to decide if their follower of the goddess of art would be ok with destroying an offensive and blasphemous piece of art.
Remember, faction missions aren't supposed to have a 100% success rate. For that matter, faction missions are kinda going away (still waiting on the details) in two weeks, so this may all become irrelevant.
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And then I'd use the Divine Hunter Archetype... but I'd rather use a reach weapon.
Building a highly flexible warrior is actually quite simple using just CRB feats!
gnome, using the very good 15/14/14/14/12/07 20pt pre-racial array:
STR-13 (bump 4th)
DEX:14
CON+14
INT:14
WIS:07
CHA+16 (bump 8th,12th)
...archetype: none which forfeit the must-have Divine Grace. I recommend against Divine Hunter for small race paladins in PFS because they are invariably able to use their mounts in dungeons (DH forfeits mount, and also Aura of Courage). I'd just stick with the CRB paladin (IMO it's the best).
01 Mounted Combat
03 Quick Draw
05 Power Attack
07 Indomitable Mount or Deadly Aim
Weapons: longbow, lance, morningstar, scimitar
Buy a darkwood light quickdraw shield. Buy a strength belt before committing to a magic strength bow. (Throw javelins or sling at low level when you can't melee.)
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Both of those traits are very cool! I may just flip a coin between them. I don't need a special book to use them, do I?
In general the answer is yes, but these are from the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. That's part of the core, so you don't need to bring it with you - but it's a FREE download, so you can get the PDF on your phone or print out the page. http://paizo.com/products/btpy84k4
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A Sure Thing: Once per day, you gain a +2 bonus on a
single attack roll against an evil-aligned creature. If the
creature is not evil-aligned, this ability is wasted with
no benefit.Beneficent Touch : Once per day, when you cast a spell
or use a class ability that heals hit point damage, reroll
any 1s that appear on the dice and take the new roll (even
if it is another 1).
:-/
...not terribly impressed by once per day minor buffs.
There are many better traits out there. (Dangerously Curious is hella good for paladins without dumped INT.)
(Note that you are NOT required to take a faction trait in PFS.)
This is most helpful! Lots of information to go over.
I'm not very keen on going into the negatives for a stat, but I DO like the 14, 12, 14, 14, [7 :( ], 16 stat array. I was initially hoping to bump str from 13 to 14 at 4th, but that could get frustrating in the interim. I'll just bump it twice and be 16 at 8th, or put my bumps into Cha for nicer saves and other class features.
Thank you very much for the equipment ideas. I wasn't aware I could keep starting gold, having always had to have spent it in home games. This is also my first game ever starting at lvl 1. Lowest I've started was lvl 2, and boy those HPs look low! Ack!
I do intend to take the Unsanctioned Knowledge Feat at 5th. I was thinking about taking bard spells. Silent Image was one of them, which would make the basic Gnome Magic trait valuable. Why would a Paladin use an illusion? It's one of the best spells in the game (in my opinion), and I'm sure it could have lawful good implications, [Have you seen this man? :Silent Image a 3d representation:]. Otherwise I suppose the game will only progress to the 2nd level spell which I suppose would best be Heroism. Possibly Mirror Image. Other Shelynni style spell suggestions off the bard list (or any list that looks good) are welcome.
If I've gotta limit myself to the books I bring, I'll probably limit myself to 3. Core I assume I don't need to bring. APG, UM, and... UC I suppose.
Looking toward the future:
Feats: Power Attack 1st, Mounted Combat 3rd, Unsanctioned Knowledge 5th
Do I need to put skills in ride now to be effective at mounted combat should I take the mount at 5th? [A well coiffed attack poodle!] Would I be able to purchase a mount around 3rd and before 5th or would a wand of mount do?
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A Sure Thing: Once per day, you gain a +2 bonus on a
single attack roll against an evil-aligned creature. If the
creature is not evil-aligned, this ability is wasted with
no benefit.Beneficent Touch : Once per day, when you cast a spell
or use a class ability that heals hit point damage, reroll
any 1s that appear on the dice and take the new roll (even
if it is another 1).:-/
...not terribly impressed by once per day minor buffs.
There are many better traits out there. (Dangerously Curious is hella good for paladins without dumped INT.)
(Note that you are NOT required to take a faction trait in PFS.)
Generally, I tend to agree about once per day traits, but I actually took Beneficent Touch with my channel-heavy cleric. If you're rolling lots of healing dice in combat, being able to avoid a bad roll at a critical time can sometimes be a life saver.
Generally, I tend to agree about once per day traits, but I actually took Beneficent Touch with my channel-heavy cleric. If you're rolling lots of healing dice in combat, being able to avoid a bad roll at a critical time can sometimes be a life saver.
It increases the average healing per dice rolled from 3.5 to 4. It could take a lot of a lot of healing dice to make it a real life saver.
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... I'm not very keen on going into the negatives for a stat, but I DO like the 14, 12, 14, 14, [7 :( ], 16 stat array ...
Understand, but it is pretty much necessary when you have several stats that you want to be good (MAD build). If you are making, for example, a simple high int wizard (SAD build). then it isn't necessary, though many still do. If you don't want the stats as high though there are others possible.
16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 1016, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12
14, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10
(before racial modifiers)
None of these have a dump stat. But you can't keep as many abilities as high without losing something somewhere.
... If I've gotta limit myself to the books I bring, I'll probably limit myself to 3. Core I assume I don't need to bring. APG, UM, and... UC I suppose. ...
That is why I have been going for PDF's for all the new books I'm buy. Then I can just print off the watermarked page for the specific rule I am using or show that I have it on my tablet. I do have the hard print of the basic CRB, GMG, Beastiary, and Inner Sea World Guide.
If you want hard print but just don't want to carry them, you could make a copy of the pages you need to keep track of while playing. Then leave the book in your car, you could just retreive it in the event a GM decides to audit your build.Really the only time I have heard of them doing that is if you have something real oddball that the GM doesn't know how it works OR if you have a really topped-out bizzare build that the GM thinks isn't legal for PFS (screwed up summoner edilon seems to be the most likely). You don't have anything like that, so it isn't too likely.
... Looking toward the future:
Feats: Power Attack 1st, Mounted Combat 3rd, Unsanctioned Knowledge 5thDo I need to put skills in ride now to be effective at mounted combat should I take the mount at 5th? [A well coiffed attack poodle!] Would I be able to purchase a mount around 3rd and before 5th or would a wand of mount do?
Usually I say don't bother with mounted combat, not that much happens outdoor where you can use it. But since you are small a medium mount could be taken inside sometimes. (Many are social situations where a mount would not be appropriate even if it fits.)
Which type of divine bond you chose can be a tough decision.
Since you don't have a high dex and are likely to be in at least medium if not heavy armor, I would suggest enough points in ride to give a decent chance to succeed in the standard checks while wearing your armor.
Yes, PFS is pretty generous with the financial rewards. You can easily afford a mount by 3rd level.
... not terribly impressed by once per day minor buffs.
There are many better traits out there. (Dangerously Curious is hella good for paladins without dumped INT.)
(Note that you are NOT required to take a faction trait in PFS.)
Generally I agree with you stat wise. I almost always take either a faction or relgion trait (or both) just to feel more like a member. I sometimes forget that not everyone does that.
Generally, I tend to agree about once per day traits, but I actually took Beneficent Touch with my channel-heavy cleric. If you're rolling lots of healing dice in combat, being able to avoid a bad roll at a critical time can sometimes be a life saver.It increases the average healing per dice rolled from 3.5 to 4. It could take a lot of a lot of healing dice to make it a real life saver.
It's not what it does to the average that makes a significant difference. It's what it does when you happened to roll really close to the low end of the bell curve. Not all that likely, but we've all seen it happen at some of the worst possible times. {shrug} It's like insurance. Most of the time it isn't meaningful, you hope it isn't needed, and is generally a waste of funds. But occaisionally you're glad you have it.
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Thematically, Sacred Touch is a good trait for a paladin. A paladin is likely to want to stabilize a dying combatant, whether friend or foe. Now that the Magical Knack trait is PFS-legal it is quite useful for paladins and rangers.
In my experience, having one or two odd numbered attribute scores is useful. The first PFS character I built had all even numbered scores, so my first attribute score increase at fourth level did not increase any of my bonuses.
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It's not what it does to the average that makes a significant difference. It's what it does when you happened to roll really close to the low end of the bell curve. Not all that likely, but we've all seen it happen at some of the worst possible times. {shrug} It's like insurance. Most of the time it isn't meaningful, you hope it isn't needed, and is generally a waste of funds. But occaisionally you're glad you have it.It increases the average healing per dice rolled from 3.5 to 4. It could take a lot of a lot of healing dice to make it a real life saver.
Generally, I tend to agree about once per day traits, but I actually took Beneficent Touch with my channel-heavy cleric. If you're rolling lots of healing dice in combat, being able to avoid a bad roll at a critical time can sometimes be a life saver.
Exactly. If we always had average die rolls, then it would be a worthless trait. It's those rare times when you get a bad roll when it's really important that make it useful. Kinda like shirt rerolls.
Bam! Sold on Sacred Touch.
Traits: Sacred Touch and Dangerously Curious.
I'm preppin' for tomorrow! Very excited. Thanks for the help.
Do NOT dump Wis. Perception is THE most rolled skill, and you'll feel left out if you never make that roll.
In fact for a newb- never dump any stats.
You will find Sacred Touch mostly useless, since your Lay On Hands does much better than that. If you're going to spend a Standard Action, might as well get them on their feat.
Take:Armor Expert, and Missionary.
Later, take Divine Warrior.
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Agree with DrDeath about Sacred Touch, but Dangerously Curious is a good choice. You have high charisma, so making UMD a class skill could easily lead to you being able to use whatever wands you want once you have a few ranks in it. I have a level 6 sorcerer who no longer has to roll to use wands of cleric spells, because his UMD is up to +19, and the DC for wand use is 20.
Too late on the Wisdom dump. It's done. If I don't like it I'll change it before it gets locked in at 2nd level. I'm fine roleplaying an oblivious character. (I say that now...)
Changed Sacred Touch to Armor Expert.
Filling out the last things on my char sheet now, basic equippies. Kept it under a light load.
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Paladin is the one class I'd ever dump wisdom on. They get such great saving throws that the perception penalty is the only real cost, and that's not worth build points to avoid.
Remember, if you're wearing medium or heavy armor that slows you down anyway, then there's no point in worrying about whether your eq is a light load.
Had my first game today! That was loads of fun. I both sucked and rocked. I played with four pregens (ninja, bard, cleric, wizard).
The cold weather encounter was largely uneventful.
The second encounter I actually got to smite evil! I spoke Draconic which was nice and helpful thanks to the high intelligence, although the kobold druid was CRAZY so didn't learn anything particularly helpful. The cleric stabilized her so I didn't need to.
The final encounter was lots of fun, even though it was a bunch of failed saves after another, we eventually got what we needed to do done.
Lessons learned: While failing perception rolls are okay, failing sense motive isn't. I failed one and ended up taking cursed treasure. I gots to get ranks in that.
Gnome spell like abilities aren't to be underestimated. The ability to have clean clothes in social situations with prestodigitation is a handy one.
Being mounted means you are not stupidly slow as a small character! I'm going to aim towards that as my divine bond, if I don't go to Cavalier directly while keeping much of the same fluff. (Could take Order of the Star as a Cavalier and be just dandy in the same line, but without all the healing later on that I want.) I will probably take the mounted paladin archetype.
I like the character and have fun with it. We'll see how it sticks by level 2.
Thanks for the help!
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Do NOT dump Wis. Perception is THE most rolled skill, and you'll feel left out if you never make that roll.
Paladins are awesome, but they can't do everything. With tepid INT, most paladins barely have enough points to walk and chew gum, let alone stay in the saddle, hobnob the royalty, tell if somebody's lying, and use a magic device.
Dump WIS, and dump it hard. Going from a 12 to a 7 frees up a whopping 6 build points o make your CHA and attack stat both be higher. Not a point in Perception? Well, that may have freed up from 25% to 50% of your skill points.
Ohnozz... that's -6 out of the gate relative to the 1st-level teammate with WIS:12 and Perception as a class skill. Good -- let him make the roll. After all, those damned guides keep telling everyone to go wonkers on Perception, so there's bound to be somebody in the party hyper-maxed in it anyway.
I have halfling multiclass paladins with class-skill maxed Perception who spot almost everything despite a WIS:7, and lunkhead paladins without a single rank, and they both do just fine.
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Lessons learned: While failing perception rolls are okay, failing sense motive isn't.
Bingo. If I had two skill points for a paladin, one would go to Ride, and the other to Sense Motive.
Having dumped wisdom only sucks until you pick up Divine Grace at 2nd level.
Being mounted means you are not stupidly slow as a small character! I'm going to aim towards that as my divine bond, if I don't go to Cavalier directly while keeping much of the same fluff.Cavalier diversions are very tempting (especially for heavy armor paladins wanting to get rid of armor penalties to Ride), but each dip-out delays those awesome, butt-saving auras.
Fair warning: the CRB paladin is so good (especially the auras) that, IMO, all the archetypes are weaker (most substantially so).
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I'm not very keen on going into the negatives for a stat, but I DO like the 14, 12, 14, 14, [7 :( ], 16 stat array. I was initially hoping to bump str from 13 to 14 at 4th, but that could get frustrating in the interim. I'll just bump it twice and be 16 at 8th, or put my bumps into Cha for nicer saves and other class features.
Don't sweat the baby levels: your small/13 + mutt is better than any other character's 16/nomal + nada....because you'll have two attacks in melee to their one.
The 15,14,14,14,12,07 20pt array is exceptionally good for MAD characters, especially races with two stat bumps.
I do intend to take the Unsanctioned Knowledge Feat at 5th.Dangerously Curious and a haversack full of cheap scrolls are going to take a paladin a LOT farther than Unsanctioned Knowledge. IMO, it's a feat for high-level paladins who actually have enough feat slots to matter.
Feats: Power Attack 1st, Mounted Combat 3rd, Unsanctioned Knowledge 5thPower Attack is a very useful feat which I don't like at 1st level if you're not a raging barbarian or feat-loaded fighter going after chains. You'll kick yourself every time you whiff by a point (and I observe that this happens almost as often as the extra damage being a fator at low level). Take Mounted at 1st to keep your ride alive.
01 Mounted Combat
03 Quick Draw
05 Power Attack
07 Indomitable Mount or Deadly AimWeapons: longbow, lance, morningstar, scimitar
Buy a darkwood light quickdraw shield. Buy a strength belt before committing to a magic strength bow. (Throw javelins or sling at low level when you can't melee.)
Every feat and item on that list works on harmonious synergy to keep you effective in varied combat situations. You can charge, bash, hack and shoot.
(Only thing you're not good against is gibbering mouthers; you watch our for those -- they're especially designed to kill small characters.)
The mounted archetype trades out Divine Health (so I'll be susceptible to disease) and Aura of Justice. The abilities traded for are No Ride Checks /w Armor and Mount gains benefit of my CHA to saves. I think those are very worthwhile trades, especially considering Aura of Justice is so far away. And I'm restricted to taking a mount, but I'll be doing that anyway. I can take the Disease curing mercy at the same time so the trade will be off-set.
New point buy:
STR 14 (16-2)
DEX 10
CON 13 (11+2)
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 19
Bump CHA at 4th to get +5 to all saves and during smite to hit and AC. Bump CON at 8th to get +8 HP and +1 to Fortitude.
I'll have a whopping 2 skill points. Those go into Diplomacy and UMD for now. I can take the FCB for Ride or for an additional HP, and I'm leaning to the latter.
Still working the kinks out of the character.
Furthermore Sowann Ensoforth was a sculptor in a small village. A gentle soul concerned more with art than soldiering, it came as a bit of a shock when a little birdie told him he would become a soldier of his goddess, Shelyn. This was all the more surprising because the bird was made of stone and he had only just finished carving it.
He lashed his chisel to the end of his hammer and marched out to find beauty in the world
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Aside from CHA, you're trying to "jam a race's weaknesses and ignore its strengths". I.e., the old 3rd-edition "make a half-orc sorcerer" kind of thing. In a gnome, you're spending *half* of your 20pt-buy build points on a 16-2=14 STR, and it's killing your other stats. E.g., Mounted Combat is a DEX-based skill, and, without multi-classing, you'll be eating an armor-check penalty off your flat-zero bonus from DEX:10. Meanwhile, your poor CON is languishing at a 13, begging to be risen to a 14 (instead of throwing it all into CHA, thereby meaning two more build points would have been saved via CON:12>14/CHA:16>18 at 1st as opposed to CON:11>13/CHA:17>19)
Having three odd-numbered stats at 1st is suboptimal unless you're playing a contorted weird build which is optimal only when MAD across the board (to maximize point-buy in the 1:1 range of 13 or less). There are *very few* such optimal builds; and gnome paladins aren't one of them. (This is why pre-racial 15,14,14,14,12,07 rocks; it'll give a 20 at 4th w/item, and *three* other 14s to play with.)
Not saying you won't have fun; just pointing it out.
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Yup, gnome strength based paladin is a sub-optimal choice. But the cha and con bonuses do salvage it somewhat, as long as you go into it realizing that you'll never be as heavy a damage dealer as a race with higher strength. The cha bonuses to every paladin ability and con bonus for survivability could still make this a very good character. But skipping strength and going for some sort of dex based attacker instead (archery or weapon finesse) might be a more optimal way to do it.
But again, as long as he's having fun with it, being perfectly optimal isn't a requirement.
Had my first game today! That was loads of fun. I both sucked and rocked. I played with four pregens (ninja, bard, cleric, wizard). ** spoiler omitted **
Lessons learned: While failing perception rolls are okay, failing sense motive isn't. I failed one and ended up taking cursed treasure. I gots to get ranks in that.
Gnome spell like abilities aren't to be underestimated. The ability to have clean clothes in social situations with prestodigitation is a handy one.
Being mounted means you are not stupidly slow as a small character! I'm going to aim towards that as my divine bond, if I don't go to Cavalier directly while keeping much of the same fluff. (Could take Order of the Star as a Cavalier and be just dandy in the same line, but without all the healing later on that I want.) I will probably take the mounted paladin archetype.
I like the character and have fun with it. We'll see how it sticks by level 2.
Thanks for the help!
Yeah, I told you not to dump WIS. You spent 5 pts bring your str up to 16-2=14. That would have brought your wis to 11, and bring one pt from CHA would make that a 12, and you int a 12 also.
What would you lose? +1 to atk and damage. How much damage do you do when you fail your will save and spend the entire encounter running away? Zero.
So, take how much damage you failed to do during that entire encounter and then compare it to the extra +1 you got when you were there.
Also having a Wis of 12 and a int of 12 means you could put one pt into Sense motive, which means +4.
It's true you get a nice bonus to saves at 2nd level. That -2 from a bad Wis will be offset by the +4. BUT, failing a Will save generally means you're OUT of the combat.
Besides you're also now playing a hero that is more of a fool than 99.999% of all Golarion. Not very heroic.
Don't dump.
Playing a paladin can be a huge pain in the ass because there always seems to be a perception gap between what you think the 'right' thing to do in a situation may be, and what the GM or another player thinks it is. It's why I'll never play a paladin again and why there are so many threads on here discussing it.
Player decides to take action X and reasonably believes that it's well-within his paladin-code to do so.
GM disagrees and punishes or warns player for it.
Chaos and fights ensue.
Totally not worried. Had loads of fun. Failed a bunch of will saves and wisdom checks. These things happen. I'm not good at those things yet. Next level, saves get MUCH better across the board. 4th level, I'll be a paladin with +5 to saves AND good save DCs (for a Paladin.) I ignore armor check penalties to ride with the Shining Knight archetype. That means I'll only need one rank to get the Guide with Knees ride check regularly. (Ride 5, so a single rank gets +4, which never fails.)
Once I get out of first level, things look up.
I have followed a lot of advice, but I can't follow all of it when it's contradictory. (For example, I can't both have odd numbers to bump at 4th and 8th AND have all even numbers from first level.)
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I happen to be running a gnome Paladin of Shelyn in a non-PFS game. She's CHA based and tends to do quite well. The DM is a bit silly with WBL (in a fun way), so her AC and Saves are quite goofy. Especially when the foe is evil.
As a gnome paladin of Shelyn, you should keep this in mind.
Gnomes are natural illusionists. Do not be fooled by appearances; strive to see things (and people) as they truly are.
Consider humor a form of art. Share your art. Prank.
Gnomes are, physically, very mutable. Because of this, you may have a very different standard of beauty than others. Your personal image of Shelyn is probably that of a gnomish Shelyn, especially if raised among other gnomes.
While gnomes are very capable of being obsessed fanatics, many take a more relaxed view of religion, and see their god as an old friend, rather than a deity to be worshiped.
I'd be careful with this last one, as your DM may not agree. Gnomes are natural tricksters. A gnome paladin may not consider acts of trickery and deception dishonorable. Your goddess may not mind such things either, (being NG.)
Above all... gnomes are... unique. Feel free to disregard any or all of this! Find your quirks, and play with them.
I'd be careful with this last one, as your DM may not agree. Gnomes are natural tricksters. A gnome paladin may not consider acts of trickery and deception dishonorable. Your goddess may not mind such things either, (being NG.)
In PFS your playing with fire if your hoping for a particular type of GM. You end up having so many different teammates and different GMs its just too hard to rely on a lenient GM. I've met a lot of jerks playing PFS. Not that I haven't met some cool people, but unfortunately those people aren't my full time PFS GMs.
Above all... gnomes are... unique. Feel free to disregard any or all of this! Find your quirks, and play with them.
All characters are capable of being unique. I like this last one though.
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I have followed a lot of advice, but I can't follow all of it when it's contradictory. (For example, I can't both have odd numbers to bump at 4th and 8th AND have all even numbers from first level.)
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.Thugsalot's paint-by-numbers guide to making an awesome 20pt character every time:
1) Q. Does my concept require good numbers in every stat?
...(are you sure?)
...... A. Yes. (Pick 15,14,12,12,12,12 pre-racial array.)
...... B. No (see next)
(Array #1 yields the highest aggregate positive bonus of any 20pt-buy starting array in which at least one number is higher than a 14. Note that dropping a 15 to a 14 releases 3 build points...but that only results in a 15,12,12 sequence becoming an inefficient 14,14,13 sequence. Having your "main" stat begin as an odd number may seem unideal, but it's actually the most efficient way to spend precious build points, and results in an even number through the rough 4th-to-8th section of leveling -- IMO the deadliest range for PFS characters.)
2) Q. Does my concept have one dump stat, but need the rest good?
...... A. Yes. (Pick 15,14,14,14,12,07 pre-racial array.)
...... B. No (see next)
(Array #2 is a shift of 6 points in #1, converting a 12,12,12 sequence into a 14,14,07. This is my favorite array of them all for multi-role and MAD characters.)
3) Q. Is character to be min/maxed, but with only one dump stat?
...... A. Yes. (Pick 17,14,12,12,12,07 pre-racial array.)
...... B. No (see next)
(Array #3 also is a shift of 6 points in #1 to convert a 15,12 pair into a 17,07. Characters with this array intend to bump the prime stat every level without fail, buy a stat item ASAP for a 22 by 5th, and very likely indulge classes like barbarian to boost it even further.)
4) Q. Is this character a shamelessly min/maxed "save or suck" caster?
...... A. Yes. (pre-racial 18 cast stat, sack everything else that doesn't make saves or hitpoints)
.......B. No. (Pick one of the other arrays.)
(Arrays with uber even starting numbers (especially 18s, which cost seventeen points), are not at all point-efficient. Chose this array only if ultra min/maxing is your cup-of-tea, you know your GM doesn't mind, you're very experienced with the sort of character you'll be playing, and equally well-versed in the spells and items he'll need to shore up his many weaknesses.)
= = = = =
Example:
halfling rogue2/paladinX starting stats
STR-12
DEX+17 (bump 4th)
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:07
CHA+16 (other bumps)
The "bonus density" of the very efficient 15,14,14,14,12,07 array really becomes apparent in races with a +2/-1 stat adjustment. This small race character manages to swing two main stats of 16 or higher and still have three other stats 12 or higher, including the one that's the racial dump!
At 4th or thereabouts, a bump in the prime stat plus a belt yields a dexterity of 20, for an effective stat array of 20,16,14,12,12,07.
When creating a character, put yourself in the mentality of, "What are his stats after 4th with his first stat item?" The best point-buy payoff is for a 15 race-bumped to a 17, level-bumped at 4th to an 18, then item-bumped to a 20. Getting that 20 in a prime stat for a measly *seven* build points plus cash is about the very best thing you can do to supercharge utility and survivability. You have thirteen remaining build points -- two-thirds left -- to make a well-rounded character who's not a boring one-trick-pony. (If there's one thing PFS module writers do very well, it's mess with one-trick-pony expectations).
Example:
halfling rogue2/paladinX starting stats
WIS:07
The "bonus density" of the very efficient 15,14,14,14,12,07 array really becomes apparent in races with a +2/-1 stat adjustment. to make a well-rounded character who's not a boring one-trick-pony.
You contradict yourself. Either he has a super dumped wisdom, down to the point he's more foolish than almost everyone in the width and breadth of Golarion, or he's well rounded. You can't dump a stat down to 7, in world where the lowest stat (not counting racial modifiers) is a 8 and call yourself 'well rounded".
And our OP found out what it cost him: sitting out an entire combat, having to run away like a scared bunny (how heroic!) and then getting saddled with a cursed item.
You're a HERO dammit. Act like one.
If the only way you can make a build work is to dump a stat down to 7, I have no respect for that build.