Round where I live, 'Sir' or 'Madam' would only ever be coupled with 'Can you come with me, please? I'm placing you under arrest'
Having said that, 'Please', 'Thankyou', 'Excuse me' and all those little courtesies aren't dead, even if they are normally accompanied by an impressive amount of effing and blinding.
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I find sir or ma'm helps to ameliorate peoples reaction to my GEEK VADER MONOTONE OF DOOM. Sends the start of the conversation from "its going to eat me!" to "... its being polite i think..."
From now on I will use only 'human'.
"Hello, human!"
"Need any assistance, human?"
I think "sentient" might work better, but I'm a huge legion of super heroes fan.
effing and blinding.
Not familiar with these terms (well, I know the literal meaning of blinding, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean).
I am considering "organic".
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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From now on I will use only 'human'.
"Hello, human!"
"Need any assistance, human?"
Funny story.
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Lived most of my life in Nebraksa, and I was raised with the "Sir/Ma'am". If I don't know the other person I'm speaking to, I use them, regardless of age difference. I think every human being is deserving of a certain minimum amount of respect just for breathing, so they get the "Sir/Ma'am" until they prove otherwise. If asked to use that person's first name instead, I will do so.
I refuse to refer to people as "Hey, you". To me, it depicts a sort of social laziness, like a person can't even be bothered to show a little common courtesy to his or her fellow man. I must admit though, I am far more forgiving of women in regards to this than men.
Being polite, and being a gentleman reflects not only upon you but your family, and family pride is a big deal in the Midwest. How you are seen, how you communicate with people speaks to your upbringing, and I choose not to embarrass my family. I think this harkens back to a small town philosophy, where everyone knew everyone else.
It's just done without thought on my part. Be polite, be civil. Remember where you came from. Don't be a jackass.
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effing and blinding.Not familiar with these terms (well, I know the literal meaning of blinding, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean).
British colloquialism. Loose translation: Cursing.
Etymology. "Effing" refers to a word that sounds a lot like lucking but beginning with f. "Blinding" refers to gorblimey (derived from God blind me) as a very mild curse (I think).
I've been taught to use "Sir" or "Ma'am" when dealing with those older than I or my superior at work. In any other circumstance, I don't see such titles as necessary.
Thanks
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What really gets my goat is when a stranger (or anyone really, even people close to me) call me 'hun' or 'sugar'. These are amongst the most dire of condescending insults where I live.
They relate only one message:
"I am better than you and you are so pitiful I must treat you like an ignorant child."
That POV is very interesting to me. I'm from Baltimore and the local culture is to call everyone "hon." The intention is akin to calling someone "friend" or "neighbor" -- and is most definitely more of an equalizer than a diminutive. It would be more of an insult NOT to be called "hon" by the people who use that terminology, it would basically mean there's something about you they don't like.
And generally, we assume anyone who DOES take offense to "hon" is an outsider who doesn't respect our local culture (provided you are in Baltimore when you choose to take offense to it).
I do try to bear in mind it is a local thing and other people may not take it the same way. I am definitely guilty of "hon" and "darling"-ing everyone, and I am challenged to remember people aren't always going to take it the way in which I intend.
Anyway, Umbral Reaver, should I ever accidentally "hon" you, I apologize in advance for any insult felt, and please know it's intended as a compliment, not an insult.
As for "ma'am" I think some of my fellow women let themselves be conditioned by society far too much and become ridiculously oversensitive about their age. As it is, I look younger than my age and older folks often talk down to me (and how, at 37, people still ask me "am I still in school" I don't know). So when I hear someone call me "ma'am" I am delighted. Someone knows I'm over 30! Yay! It always makes me feel like a big girl. ;)
Mind, I don't take offense to "miss" either, but neither bother me.
I also always think of that Mary Tyler Moore episode "Today I am a Ma'am." Poor Mary, age 30, gets called ma'am AND learns she is no longer in the target age (18-29) demographic for their show's ratings. She has quite the crisis. To me such a crisis therefore seems to be the realm of sitcom material and little more. I'm sorry to hear there are others who make such a deal of it... especially since I cannot think of a single circumstance where someone would use "ma'am" as anything other than a term of respect (whether it's used in their local culture or not).
I do use ma'am/sir/miss as I was trained to do so when I worked retail (and my parents used those terms too).
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I myself will be honest. Both of my parents were military at one time and since we spent a lot of time on base until I was in school I was taught to reference all strangers as sir or ma'am. I was taught that so I would not accidentally offend a superior officer and cause trouble.
It has stuck through all these years. If a person requests I not do it I politely explain why I did it and promise to try to not use the term in the future.
Funny thing one time was when someone realized he left his ID at home instead of having it in his wallet. Since he called me ma'am I asked him if he had his military ID on him as I could use that to card him for his beer. He asked how I knew he was in the military and was stunned when I told him only the military used the term ma'am when speaking with me and so it was usually a dead giveaway.
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I find it curious that it seems to be implied by several posters that if you don't use these "honorifics" you're somehow an impolite, rude, uncivilized person and even socially lazy and a jackass.
Funny how that contrasts with the implication that those who DO use them are the opposite...
I find it curious that it seems to be implied by several posters that if you don't use these "honorifics" you're somehow an impolite, rude, uncivilized person and even socially lazy and a jackass.
Funny how that contrasts with the implication that those who DO use them are the opposite...
I noticed that you stated that things are done quite a bit different in Sweden. If so, then do you also avoid the honorifics in your organizational dealings? If this is true, then there appears to be no one who is ever given respect because there appear to be no guidelines. Are the reasons for earned respect entirely subjective? I am a bit curious.
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I find it curious that it seems to be implied by several posters that if you don't use these "honorifics" you're somehow an impolite, rude, uncivilized person and even socially lazy and a jackass.
Funny how that contrasts with the implication that those who DO use them are the opposite...
It has nothing to do with the meaning of titles themselves, as you have to differentiate between the honorific and the formal usage of the terms. In the formal (ie, not implying a difference in status) it is the usage of the titles and the deference implied what's important and considered polite.
By deffinition of the word, "Politeness" means proper use of manners and ettiquete, which in turn are social codes of conducts agreed upon to be desirable. The usage of those titles is considered part of that code in several cultures, so not using them means you are breaking the barrier of politeness. And if you are not being polite, you therefore are being impolite.
Really, it's no different than claiming people who don't chew with their mouths closed are being impolite.
Now, we can nitpick about whether being polite is important in society or a tool devised by the stooges of plutocracy (I personally think it's important and desirable), but we should make the distinction between the honorific and formal usages of the word.
I find it very easy to be polite without calling people "Master" or "Mistress," but ymmv.
Fascinating discussion. I'm another Brit who would expect 'Sir' or 'Madam' to involve a trip to the local nick.
From my perspective, it all revolves around my knowledge of the current social context in which I find myself, and my direct personal knowledge of the person I'm addressing.
Social: Mr John Smith, Sir John Smith, Captain John Smith and Dr John Smith would all be called John. Likewise for Mrs, Dame, Major or Dr Joan Smith.
Formal: Mr Smith, Sir John, Captain Smith and Dr Smith would find themselves called exactly that.
They know they're a man or a woman, so calling them 'sir' or 'madam' comes across as sarcastic (essentially saying "I don't care what your title actually is, and I'm not going to waste my time finding out").
It only gets a little tricky when dealing with the nobility, wherein unless you have been granted explicit social permission to call them by their first name, you should properly refer to them by their full title in the first instance, and their form of address thereafter.
All good fun.
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Anyway, "sir," "ma'am," I don't really care, but what I can't stand is when black men call me "Boss." That's pretty infuriating.
Except for my co-worker, Necker. He's an elderly gentleman from Haiti, and his English is pretty indecipherable and the only words he ever seems to say are "Yes, boss, heh heh heh." He also has a history of mental instability and appears to be heavily medicated, so we just let him say and do whatever he wants.
They know they're a man or a woman, so calling them 'sir' or 'madam' comes across as sarcastic (essentially saying "I don't care what your title actually is, and I'm not going to waste my time finding out").
This is one thing I don't understand. It's one thing if the person's tone is obviously sarcastic - the drawn-out drone of someone who's emphasizing the term with obvious distaste, or something equally noticeable. But in the general context of the use, without any emphasis or variance of speech, I don't see why it would be automatically considered sarcastic.
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IN GNOMUNIST KOREA THERE ONLY ONE TITLE: GLORIOUS LEADER
YOU GLORIOUS LEADER? THEN TITLE AND PRETTY WATCHES (FOR KEEPING GLORIOUS TIME)
YOU NO GLORIOUS LEADER? THEN WHAT YOU DO OUTSIDE MINE. GO BACK IN MINE, OR WE MAKE YOU SAUSAGE
I, otoh, have a fondness for "sirrah" and "knave."
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They know they're a man or a woman, so calling them 'sir' or 'madam' comes across as sarcastic (essentially saying "I don't care what your title actually is, and I'm not going to waste my time finding out").This is one thing I don't understand. It's one thing if the person's tone is obviously sarcastic - the drawn-out drone of someone who's emphasizing the term with obvious distaste, or something equally noticeable. But in the general context of the use, without any emphasis or variance of speech, I don't see why it would be automatically considered sarcastic.
He did say he was British. ;-)
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IN GNOMUNIST KOREA THERE ONLY ONE TITLE: GLORIOUS LEADER
YOU GLORIOUS LEADER? THEN TITLE AND PRETTY WATCHES (FOR KEEPING GLORIOUS TIME)
YOU NO GLORIOUS LEADER? THEN WHAT YOU DO OUTSIDE MINE. GO BACK IN MINE, OR WE MAKE YOU SAUSAGE
Fawful is having title for you, head of fire! Fink-rat!
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Fawful is having title for you, head of fire! Fink-rat!IN GNOMUNIST KOREA THERE ONLY ONE TITLE: GLORIOUS LEADER
YOU GLORIOUS LEADER? THEN TITLE AND PRETTY WATCHES (FOR KEEPING GLORIOUS TIME)
YOU NO GLORIOUS LEADER? THEN WHAT YOU DO OUTSIDE MINE. GO BACK IN MINE, OR WE MAKE YOU SAUSAGE
AGAIN IS YOU
BOTHERING IS BEING HAD
WE DON'T SAY KILL-PERSON AGENT IS SENT IN WAY OF YOU, BUT WE DON'T SAY HE NOT SENT EITHER
I noticed that you stated that things are done quite a bit different in Sweden. If so, then do you also avoid the honorifics in your organizational dealings? If this is true, then there appears to be no one who is ever given respect because there appear to be no guidelines. Are the reasons for earned respect entirely subjective? I am a bit curious.I find it curious that it seems to be implied by several posters that if you don't use these "honorifics" you're somehow an impolite, rude, uncivilized person and even socially lazy and a jackass.
Funny how that contrasts with the implication that those who DO use them are the opposite...
Well, I'm from Denmark, but in this case it seems to be about the same attitude we have towards it in general. ;-)
When you say organizational dealings I assume you mean within a company and e.g. within the military.In most companies that I'm aware of the tone is much more conversational and informal. One obvious example of the contrary is a recently deceased shipping magnate (Mærsk Mc-Kinney Møller - son of the founder of the Maersk-group), who seemed to be called Mr. by everyone - well, the Danish equivalent (he was a Knight of the Order of the Elephant, which might have something to do with it).
Within the military it might be more common too, although with language differences it's a bit of a different situation. We have words that are used instead of e.g. "Yes Sir," but which doesn't translate very well to civil organizations as they pertain to direct orders from a military superiour.
In writing you might get more formal language, like letters being addressed to a Mr. or Mrs./Miss so and so, but it's by no means universal and most letters are just addressed to your full name.
Respect is given by general language, and obviously the absence of derogatory or particularly foul language, and acts.
Now, obviously, you'll find people over here who disagrees with that and use all the titular words and feel that the "respect your elders" should be a given. Incidentally those are usually older people and are thus slowly dying out.
I can easily be kind and courteous and give my seat on the bus to an elderly person, but if said person starts poking me with a cane and tells me that I should respect him or her just because they are older... that'll make me lose all respect immediately.
So, yes, the baseline is still that everyone deserves respect, it just doesn't take a lot to lose said implied respect quickly when you impose on others.
Here in Spain Spanish we use "Señor/Señora" or on formal situations, but normally the gender neutral "usted". I have heard sometimes that we Spanish are considered to have a rude talking out there, but more for our extreme love for insults.
All that are of course cultural things.
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Ya know, the grooviest thing about this whole thread (to me, anyway) is seeing how many Paizonians chime in from so many different countries.
Now, back on the rails.
I find it curious that it seems to be implied by several posters that if you don't use these "honorifics" you're somehow an impolite, rude, uncivilized person and even socially lazy and a jackass.
Funny how that contrasts with the implication that those who DO use them are the opposite...
Do you also find it curious that there are different cultures on the planet? I only spoke of things around where I live, and I thought I made that pretty clear. It was not meant as a broad brush.
If I went to where you live and was told "Hey we don't do that here" then I wouldn't continue to do so, but based on where I was raised, I could not help but find that curious.
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Old people aren't slowly dying out. They are slowly being replaced, by us.
Here in Spain Spanish we use "Señor/Señora" or on formal situations, but normally the gender neutral "usted". I have heard sometimes that we Spanish are considered to have a rude talking out there, but more for our extreme love for insults.
All that are of course cultural things.
Here in Chile we love how you guys curse, though, so it's all nice and dandy (or, conversely, how you guys get all giggly around here when they see the giant signs of one of the local lotteries saying "Polla Chilena de Beneficencia" or "Saquese la Polla y hagase millonario").
My Asturian great-grandmother, may God rest her soul, laughed about it until the day she died, often saying "Only a country like Chile would have a public, beneficence polla for everyone to enjoy".
The shape of the country certainly doesn't help.
Old people aren't slowly dying out. They are slowly being replaced, by us.
Oh my, it's a conspiracy! And we're all sleeper agents!
What really gets my goat is when a stranger (or anyone really, even people close to me) call me 'hun' or 'sugar'. These are amongst the most dire of condescending insults where I live.
They relate only one message:
"I am better than you and you are so pitiful I must treat you like an ignorant child."
When I found myself in Chicago for a weekend just about every woman in the city that I talked to used that term or something similar.
It took a moment to adjust, but I loved it.
BTW Chicago was one of the friendliest city's I've ever been too. Every person was a character who had their personalities on their sleeves. This might have been due to the crosstown classic (Cubs vs. Sox) that was going on over the course of the visit. Wow that city comes alive for that series.
-MD
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Ironically, when I was in my 20s, people working in stores or restaurants or the like would call me Sir or Mr. <lastname> all the time, and it bugged me. Now that I'm 40, married, and have kids, and feel like I've EARNED it, it seems like nobody around (SE Michigan, US) here does that anymore. Everybody seems to want to address me by first name, which feels way too familiar for passing acquaintances.
I was raised to use Sir/Ma'am and Mr./Ms. X when talking to people older than yourself, or when in specifically formal circumstances.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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On the politeness aspect of it, I think 'assumed ignorance' is the best standard.
If I call Jessica, "ma'am." I'm running on my own cultural norms. She might get offended* but jumping down my throat is not the right response. Politely asking me to call her "Ms. Price" or "Jessica" is a lot better than calling me a neanderthal.
Now if I continue to do it, that's me being a Richard. OTOH, if she jumps down my throat the first time I do it, I'll likely keep doing it, just to annoy her. :-)
Aside. I prefer being called "Matthew" in conversation with people I don't know. "Matt" I prefer for more familiar people, like friends and family.
*
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Old people aren't slowly dying out. They are slowly being replaced, by us.Oh my, it's a conspiracy! And we're all sleeper agents!
We're our own pod-people!
I find it curious that it seems to be implied by several posters that if you don't use these "honorifics" you're somehow an impolite, rude, uncivilized person and even socially lazy and a jackass.
Funny how that contrasts with the implication that those who DO use them are the opposite...Do you also find it curious that there are different cultures on the planet? I only spoke of things around where I live, and I thought I made that pretty clear. It was not meant as a broad brush.
If I went to where you live and was told "Hey we don't do that here" then I wouldn't continue to do so, but based on where I was raised, I could not help but find that curious.
Not at all and that's not what I wrote. I wrote that to me it seemed implied that if you didn't do so (in the US) you were impolite and probably wasn't raised properly (didn't learn proper manners).
Old people aren't slowly dying out. They are slowly being replaced, by us.
Either you're being contrary just for the heck of it or you don't understand that something that was common among certain generations tend to slowly die out when those generations get older and die too.
E.g. rampant racism and homophobia.
effing and blinding.Not familiar with these terms (well, I know the literal meaning of blinding, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean).British colloquialism. Loose translation: Cursing.
Etymology. "Effing" refers to a word that sounds a lot like lucking but beginning with f. "Blinding" refers to gorblimey (derived from God blind me) as a very mild curse (I think).
I always took 'blinding' as referring to 'bloody' rather than 'blimey', but that's not to say that wiktionary/anyone else is wrong. 'Blimey' isn't really swearing - it's a word you could comfortably use in front of your grandparents (or I could) - 'bloody' is in a slightly more severe category, but still down the scale from the F word.
Bring back 'Zounds'. That's what I say.
Also, I'm delighted to learn that Denmark has an Order of the Elephant :)
Now back to your regularly scheduled programme.
What really gets my goat is when a stranger (or anyone really, even people close to me) call me 'hun' or 'sugar'. These are amongst the most dire of condescending insults where I live.
They relate only one message:
"I am better than you and you are so pitiful I must treat you like an ignorant child."
When I found myself in Chicago for a weekend just about every woman in the city that I talked to used that term or something similar.
It took a moment to adjust, but I loved it.
BTW Chicago was one of the friendliest city's I've ever been too. Every person was a character who had their personalities on their sleeves. This might have been due to the crosstown classic (Cubs vs. Sox) that was going on over the course of the visit. Wow that city comes alive for that series.
-MD
Bizarre. I'm from the Chicago area, and the "hon/sugar" thing has always seemed like a southern thing to me.
Bizarre. I'm from the Chicago area, and the "hon/sugar" thing has always seemed like a southern thing to me.What really gets my goat is when a stranger (or anyone really, even people close to me) call me 'hun' or 'sugar'. These are amongst the most dire of condescending insults where I live.
They relate only one message:
"I am better than you and you are so pitiful I must treat you like an ignorant child."
When I found myself in Chicago for a weekend just about every woman in the city that I talked to used that term or something similar.
It took a moment to adjust, but I loved it.
BTW Chicago was one of the friendliest city's I've ever been too. Every person was a character who had their personalities on their sleeves. This might have been due to the crosstown classic (Cubs vs. Sox) that was going on over the course of the visit. Wow that city comes alive for that series.
-MD
Growing up in Texas and now living right on the Tennessee/Georgia border, I can confirm it's very much a southern thing, though perhaps not exclusively so. And likewise, it's more endearing than condescending where I've heard it (though that doesn't stop it from being a little irritating after being used so much).
I didn't see it much, by comparison, while living in Arizona.
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okay at this point I am just going to reduce all of my social interactions to simply pointing and hooting while jumping up and down
this will eliminate any potential miscommunications, unintended slights, hurt feelings and general differences in culture
i may also wear a loincloth and attempt to make fire
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I was taught to use sir/ma'am with your elders, and anyone you don't personally know.
i may also wear a loincloth and attempt to make fire
We approve of this course of action
On the politeness aspect of it, I think 'assumed ignorance' is the best standard.
If I call Jessica, "ma'am." I'm running on my own cultural norms. She might get offended* but jumping down my throat is not the right response. Politely asking me to call her "Ms. Price" or "Jessica" is a lot better than calling me a neanderthal.
Now if I continue to do it, that's me being a Richard. OTOH, if she jumps down my throat the first time I do it, I'll likely keep doing it, just to annoy her. :-)
Aside. I prefer being called "Matthew" in conversation with people I don't know. "Matt" I prefer for more familiar people, like friends and family.
I've yet to see anyone act actually offended or "jump down someone's throat" if a first request to address them differently is followed. I'm sure it's happened, I just don't think it's that common. Generally, since the only people that call me "ma'am" or "miss" are people I'm not likely to form a relationship with (mechanics, staff in the occasional shop, strangers in different cities), and anyone I am forming any sort of business/social relationship knows my name and uses it, I don't correct people.
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Bizarre. I'm from the Chicago area, and the "hon/sugar" thing has always seemed like a southern thing to me.What really gets my goat is when a stranger (or anyone really, even people close to me) call me 'hun' or 'sugar'. These are amongst the most dire of condescending insults where I live.
They relate only one message:
"I am better than you and you are so pitiful I must treat you like an ignorant child."
When I found myself in Chicago for a weekend just about every woman in the city that I talked to used that term or something similar.
It took a moment to adjust, but I loved it.
BTW Chicago was one of the friendliest city's I've ever been too. Every person was a character who had their personalities on their sleeves. This might have been due to the crosstown classic (Cubs vs. Sox) that was going on over the course of the visit. Wow that city comes alive for that series.
-MD
Typically it is. Unless in Acadiana where it is replaced with the much better term cher.
When I was growing up, "Mr." or "Mrs./Miss/Ms." and last-name were sort of obligatory for strangers -- but, conversely, the word "sir" was reserved for people you held in immense esteem, bordering on veneration (or for your superior officers in a military chain of command). It wasn't something you threw around.
Then I moved south, where people don't even have last names in speech (except to clarify a person not present), but "sir" and "maam" are constantly used as shorthand in every sentence to announce, "Ah'm reeeeeeeeeeal Southern, so y'all other Southerners can trust me!" In Texas, they were so ubiquitous that it was hard NOT to pepper your speech as liberally as possible with them.
I sort of wonder if there isn't a happy medium somewhere -- or if it started off that way but evolved over time into something binary.
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Clubbing people in the face is also unlikely to be misunderstood.
Old people aren't slowly dying out. They are slowly being replaced, by us.
heh. True.
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When I was growing up, "Mr." or "Mrs./Miss/Ms." and last-name were sort of obligatory for strangers -- but, conversely, the word "sir" was reserved for people you held in immense esteem, bordering on veneration (or for your superior officers in a military chain of command). It wasn't something you threw around.
That was how I was raised. In the deep south.
On the politeness aspect of it, I think 'assumed ignorance' is the best standard.
If I call Jessica, "ma'am." I'm running on my own cultural norms. She might get offended* but jumping down my throat is not the right response. Politely asking me to call her "Ms. Price" or "Jessica" is a lot better than calling me a neanderthal.
Now if I continue to do it, that's me being a Richard. OTOH, if she jumps down my throat the first time I do it, I'll likely keep doing it, just to annoy her. :-)
Aside. I prefer being called "Matthew" in conversation with people I don't know. "Matt" I prefer for more familiar people, like friends and family.
*** spoiler omitted **
Sure thing, matt! :-D