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If you're insisting on calling women "Mrs." or "Miss" when you've been told there's a professional title that is actually the equivalent of "Mr.", you are making a deeper statement.
Or acting out of a different habit that's been ingrained for years, or have never heard of ms, or have tried using ms before and someone else objected to that, or keep stumbling when making an unfamiliar sound, or just don't remember which one's which.
The irony is that the term and marital status not mattering to people at all (or mattering as much as mens) is apparently your goal, but you're forcing people to think about.
And frankly, when you haven't had to deal with something in your life, you don't get to tell anyone who has whether or not they get to be offended about it. You're not qualified to dismiss or validate their feelings about it.
If that's the case then you can't tell someone else how they feel about your objections. It works both ways. You're talking about a subjective piece of formal etiquette relying on a very small nuance that varies a lot by region and generation, not an objective physical law of the universe with one right and wrong answer.
I'm sure there are some people that find that the usage of the different honorifics, at all, to reinforce the artificial construct of gender and insist on a universal honorific. (one google search later.. apparently its Mixter (mx) ) What would you think of someone that insisted on that terminology, not as a personal preference like calling someone by a nickname but as inherently THE right way to do things?
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I would say anyone "Insisting" I learn a brand new word just for them is going to be exceedingly disappointed. Unless they are my boss- and then they'll only be disappointed sometimes.
Its hard enough to remember who all said not to use sir/mr/ma'am and just want their first (or last or Mr Last or Ms First or whatever) without someone trying to introduce brand new words just for them.
I mean, I guess you have a right to try but good luck getting it to stick.
Usually when weird words stick to someone they are of an unpleasant kind and very, very difficult to shake back off again.
We're all just people trying to get along. Anyone looking out for a reason just to get all up and offended is going to find it, and is going to have a very unhappy life in the process.
-S
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That's kind of my thought. If someone walks into a culture where women are called "ma'am" and dresses down everyone who doesn't call her "Ms.,"... well, my sympathies are with the poor people she's dressing down.
When someone says something that offends you, that's not necessarily their fault or their problem.
I have to agree. "Two countries separated by a common language," and all that.
Most people think the people in NYC are rude, and many of them are, but usually it's a function of language. 90% of the time, when an NYC driver yells, "F--- YOU!", he's not cussing you out because he's angry -- yet. He doesn't know if he needs to share space with you, and he's asking straight-out if you're from there. If you answer in the affirmative in the same language (this usually involves his mother in the response), you might even see him smile, slap his car door, and let you through. (The other 10% of the time, he's in a Mercedes or BMW and he's a stuffed shirt a$$hole and it's OK to hit him.)
This is the first time I've ever heard of ma'am implying marriage. It's just the feminine of sir, as far as I've ever heard.What's "miss" the equivalent of, then?
The way I was raised Miss was used with a name, Miss Jones for example. It was not until I was quite a bit older that I learned in some circles miss was OK to use without a name. I also want to point out it has a lot to do with your age. I was already finished with school when Ms. began to gain usage. When I was in business school I was taught to use Mrs. or Miss. Now I will admit I like Ms. better because it takes the pressure off me to find out your status. :-)
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Is there any way I can flag this whole thread and everyone in it?
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I have to agree. "Two countries separated by a common language," and all that.
Most people think the people in NYC are rude, and many of them are, but usually it's a function of language. 90% of the time, when an NYC driver yells, "F--- YOU!", he's not cussing you out because he's angry -- yet. He doesn't know if he needs to share space with you, and he's asking straight-out if you're from there. If you answer in the affirmative in the same language (this usually involves his mother in the response), you might even see him smile, slap his car door, and let you through. (The other 10% of the time, he's in a Mercedes or BMW and he's a stuffed shirt a$$hole and it's OK to hit him.)
this is so dated it boggles the mind. We new yorkers are the friendliest people on the face of the earth. I think there were people friendlier than us but we either killed them off or exiled them or something. Anywho, the only time I have witnessed people around here being rude is when they are being made late for work by some jerk who is gawking at the scenery or doesn't know how to drive-that truly enrages most.
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I just wanted to say that I use sir and ma'am and yes, I do think I'm better than you because of it. (Well, that and other things. Truth be known, I'm pretty awesome.)
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We new yorkers are the friendliest people on the face of the earth.Tell that to Joss Whedon.
I will. I look forward to introducing him to thousands of rabid fans in a side street off of Mott.
'Cause in English we don't even have a singular second person
"You" is the singular second person pronoun; the plural second person is "Y'all." Which, to my knowledge, makes English the only major language in which the second person plural is the informal version.
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this is so dated it boggles the mind.
Ah! You must live in the mythical post-Giuliani tourist NYC. I've heard good things about this place, but it's true that I haven't had a chance to visit it yet!
Here in Spain Spanish we use "Señor/Señora" or on formal situations, but normally the gender neutral "usted". I have heard sometimes that we Spanish are considered to have a rude talking out there, but more for our extreme love for insults.
All that are of course cultural things.
See, the crazy thing is, when I lived in Madrid, I did hear a good amount of Señor, Señora, Señorita, and the like - but I never, for the life of me, heard usage of usted until I was back in the US and heard it from those from south of our borders. More often, I heard actual vosotros conjugates, or Ellos/Ellas than Usted/Ustedes.
Also, related to the earlier comment someone made about 'hon' - I know there are a lot of people who use it condescendingly, and often alternate it with 'sugar', but as a Baltimorean I am told we are especially egregious abusers of 'hon' as a genuine endearment. At least, on the male half - my mother doesn't say it, but she's also ex-military and may have had it conditioned out and replaced with the other-aforementioned 'Sir/Ma'am'. Which, honestly, she doesn't really do all that much, either.
Then again, we both tend to use 'Sir/Ma'am' a substantial amount based on our respective IT careers, having started on the front lines of tech support and where those two designators are the default until surname is procured, and then there's a minimum usage of Mister/Missus/Miss/et. al Surname throughout the call, before resolution.
'Cause in English we don't even have a singular second person"You" is the singular second person pronoun; the plural second person is "Y'all." Which, to my knowledge, makes English the only major language in which the second person plural is the informal version.
Regional at best! Speaking as a New Englander, I'd rather use "thee" and "thou" and sound like an archaic nut-job! :P
(Also, the vikings had the right idea, "th" should be one letter.)
As a hopeless gaijin, I've been waiting for somebody else to explicate the wickedly engendered Japanese language, but nobody has, so, Link.
'Cause in English we don't even have a singular second person"You" is the singular second person pronoun; the plural second person is "Y'all." Which, to my knowledge, makes English the only major language in which the second person plural is the informal version.Regional at best! Speaking as a New Englander, I'd rather use "thee" and "thou" and sound like an archaic nut-job! :P
(Also, the vikings had the right idea, "th" should be one letter.)
Two, actually: Ð (ð) and Þ (þ).
Thee and thorn, respectively, IIRC.
The rules are regional and generational. People are only doing what they were taught was polite, not making any deeper statements.
No, you're attempting to remedy the fact that until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's. You're not being polite to me by calling me Miss or Mrs. instead of Ms.; you're committing a fairly significant professional faux pas.
If you're insisting on calling women "Mrs." or "Miss" when you've been told there's a professional title that is actually the equivalent of "Mr.", you are making a deeper statement.
And frankly, when you haven't had to deal with something in your life, you don't get to tell anyone who has whether or not they get to be offended about it. You're not qualified to dismiss or validate their feelings about it.
Several someones have already refuted this, and I was going to join in attempting not to pile, but to differentiate, when something occurred to me.
Your reaction at a regional cultural more that is not intended with malice or prejudice reminds me entirely of what happens when I deal with individuals from the South of A Certain Age™ who are accustomed to referring to individuals, kin or otherwise, of a much/relatively younger age than them, as 'boy' as a term of endearment and affection.
As a black male, there are a few metric tons of contextual and cultural baggage tied up in that little turn of the phrase. I've had gentlemen commit this faux pas, and realize it only because I reflexively flinched for a split second, before regaining my composure and remaining polite. It was not an intentional display of ill-will or non-respect - they genuinely found me personable and pleasant and sought to banter with me the way they would with kin.
When someone has a title that is superceding of the societal defaults, one should not necessarily presume the person misspeaking means to demean or dismiss. While I have little room to chide pomposity, even I tend to find people who get that bent, especially when the mistake is apologized for, to be particularly grating. It brings to mind the whole schtick with Dr. Evil having a minor hissyfit at being called Mister. I've dealt with enough doctors with a similar attitude, when working in contexts that hold no bearing on their professional capabilities (if I'm working in your office fixing your computer, then certainly, I don't mind calling you Doctor, but when you come into my store wearing an aloha shirt and flip flops and act like an arse? Sod off you twit!), and seen this with my own grandfather, who is particularly insistent on the Esquire part of his professional title being noted. Military ranks are similar, though my experience is that officers will remain insistent on being addressed by rank long after they are retired, while NCOs like my step-father never indulge in such things. If I have to deal with someone who is many years discharged and back in the civilian world, who insisted on being referred to as Captain or Major or what-have you, I would humor them only as much as necessary, not because I don't think they earned their title of choice, but because it hold little bearing on my life as a civilian and it smacks of unprofessional-ism on the part of the so-called professional.
I've gotten enough of that from Officers of the Law who are off duty. And I already have a poor opinion of a substantial number of their number, as it stands. So yes, I can understand where offense would be taken for not having one's lofty professional, academic, and/or social-climbing achievements acknowledged, or feel that the lack of acknowledgment of same is somehow an overt slight against one's gender or ethnicity or orientation or theological creed, there's a certain amount of getting over of one's self that helps smooth out the matter, particularly when there is a history of conditioning for certain regions for politeness in a manner that is entirely too easy to misinterpret as callous disregard for other contingent factors.
Two, actually: Ð (ð) and Þ (þ).'Cause in English we don't even have a singular second person"You" is the singular second person pronoun; the plural second person is "Y'all." Which, to my knowledge, makes English the only major language in which the second person plural is the informal version.Regional at best! Speaking as a New Englander, I'd rather use "thee" and "thou" and sound like an archaic nut-job! :P
(Also, the vikings had the right idea, "th" should be one letter.)
We can talk about voiced and unvoiced dental fricatives if you want, but I had a room-mate who kept trying to lisp his Cs when he mumbled spanish; it's been like fifteen years, but I still get pretty frustrated whenever the subject comes up.
I thought y'all was singular, with "all y'all" as plural?
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"Neptura speaks in an overwrought way, intending to sound majestic and terrifying. 'Think not that I do not see thou, little one,' he says to Promethea, who replies 'Stupid man. It’s "thee," not "thou." Hopeless without an editor' (Moore). Another negative example of using conventions unthinkingly in writing—they don’t stand up to criticism, or to a reasoned audience."
Of course, it would be a better essay if the author had gotten Moore's given name correct.
The rules are regional and generational. People are only doing what they were taught was polite, not making any deeper statements.
No, you're attempting to remedy the fact that until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's. You're not being polite to me by calling me Miss or Mrs. instead of Ms.; you're committing a fairly significant professional faux pas.
If you're insisting on calling women "Mrs." or "Miss" when you've been told there's a professional title that is actually the equivalent of "Mr.", you are making a deeper statement.
And frankly, when you haven't had to deal with something in your life, you don't get to tell anyone who has whether or not they get to be offended about it. You're not qualified to dismiss or validate their feelings about it.
Several someones have already refuted this, and I was going to join in attempting not to pile, but to differentiate, when something occurred to me.
Your reaction at a regional cultural more that is not intended with malice or prejudice reminds me entirely of what happens when I deal with individuals from the South of A Certain Age™ who are accustomed to referring to individuals, kin or otherwise, of a much/relatively younger age than them, as 'boy' as a term of endearment and affection.
As a black male, there are a few metric tons of contextual and cultural baggage tied up in that little turn of the phrase. I've had gentlemen commit this faux pas, and realize it only because I reflexively flinched for a split second, before regaining my composure and remaining polite. It was not an intentional display of ill-will or non-respect - they genuinely found me personable and pleasant and sought to banter with me the way they would with kin.
When someone has a title that is superceding of the societal defaults, one should not necessarily presume the person...
Good point re: boy.
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I don't mind "sir." I wasn't raised with sir/ma'am, but I use them occasionally if I need to politely get a stranger's attention. I am conscious of using "miss" for most women rather than commit an age-related faux pas. To me, "sir" never connoted an age, so I never minded it.
I miss the Italian "lei". It confuses non-native speakers with weak Italian skills, because the second person singular (formal) is the same as third person singular feminine. So if a waiter turns to man to take his order and says, "E per lei?" It's easy to hear "And for her?" when it can also mean "And for you, sir?" (Who are you calling "her"?)
I also miss the ubiquitous exchange when ending a purchase transaction:
Me: "Grazie!" (Thanks!)
Vendor: "Grazie a lei!" (Thank you, sir!)
I always found it charming.
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"Neptura speaks in an overwrought way, intending to sound majestic and terrifying. 'Think not that I do not see thou, little one,' he says to Promethea, who replies 'Stupid man. It’s "thee," not "thou." Hopeless without an editor' (Moore). Another negative example of using conventions unthinkingly in writing—they don’t stand up to criticism, or to a reasoned audience."
Of course, it would be a better essay if the author had gotten Moore's given name correct.
The most annoying quote in Baldur's gate was Dynaheir saying "Thy called?" all the time.
Up thine, and all that.
Y'all is most definitely a southern thing. Whenever I say it up here (South Dakota), I get funny looks from people. My friends make fun of me for it.
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Obviously. Those of us up north know that the proper second person plural is "you guys", regardless of the gender of the people involved.
(The possessive is "you guys's", but "your guys's" is also acceptable.)
(Disclosure: I try to avoid saying "you guys" as much as possible, but I've been known to slip up.)
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As a hopeless gaijin, I've been waiting for somebody else to explicate the wickedly engendered Japanese language, but nobody has, so, Link.
My interactions with the Japanese were mostly the traditional "Gaijin Smash!" method (if you've never had a chance to read Azrael's "I am a Japanese School Teacher" blogging, you should. He's an amazing writer, and I can personally attest he's not making this stuff up. He was in the area of Kyoto while I was in Kagawa-ken, and his experiences jive with much of what I experienced!).
Japanese reaction to this was generally muted, as it was expected. But in the typical bald, open eyed honesty of small children, a five year old boy in one of my children's English classes said one day:
男みたい！
Otoko mitai!
You're like a man!
I didn't raise my voice an octave when talking. I didn't always use the polite/formal form of words. I didn't use traditionally feminine Japanese body language. I wasn't scared of being assertive/aggressive if I felt it necessary (gaijin smash!!!!).
They have their own version of "y'all" here in Pittsburgh: "Yinz" (derived from "you 'uns"). You can show you're in the know by referring to locals as "Yinzers."
Good point re: boy.
I figured you would appreciate that, given what I recalled of prior discussions. Besides, several someones who think 'our lot' see offense and malice on the part of 'the Man' everywhere probably wouldn't read this thread, let alone give credence to the idea that others might take umbrage at any number of perceived slights in such a manner.
It bothers me more coming out of a cop's mouth than any other situation. They are supposed to be better trained than such as public servants. The worst of the offenders are the ones who tend to be responsible for Officer being on par with several choice four-letter words.
As a hopeless gaijin, I've been waiting for somebody else to explicate the wickedly engendered Japanese language, but nobody has, so, Link.My interactions with the Japanese were mostly the traditional "Gaijin Smash!" method (if you've never had a chance to read Azrael's "I am a Japanese School Teacher" blogging, you should. He's an amazing writer, and I can personally attest he's not making this stuff up. He was in the area of Kyoto while I was in Kagawa-ken, and his experiences jive with much of what I experienced!).
Japanese reaction to this was generally muted, as it was expected. But in the typical bald, open eyed honesty of small children, a five year old boy in one of my children's English classes said one day:
男みたい！
Otoko mitai!
You're like a man!
I didn't raise my voice an octave when talking. I didn't always use the polite/formal form of words. I didn't use traditionally feminine Japanese body language. I wasn't scared of being assertive/aggressive if I felt it necessary (gaijin smash!!!!).
COOL!!!!!!
I don't mind "sir." I wasn't raised with sir/ma'am, but I use them occasionally if I need to politely get a stranger's attention.
That is the big thing (to me). If I need to tell you that you left your cell phone on the table at Starbucks,... well, I'm sure you'd rather I told you than not. Even if I call you by a dispreferred pronoun.
To me, my "natural" version would be:
* "Excuse me, sir, I believe you left this." Replace "sir" with "ma'am" for a woman of my own age or more, with "miss" for someone obviously younger. I'm obviously of the group that considers ma'am to be a term of respect and miss to be somewhat patronizing.
One of the things that bothers me in Nowheristan is that I don't know what pronouns to use. If I'm in Germany, what do I call the 30-year old lady to get her attention? Is it the same in Austria?
But if I call you "froken" in Stockholm,... well, did you want the damn phone back or not? If you're more concerned with the absence of a wedding ring or a diacritical mark than with the absence of your phone,.... I apologize in advance.
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Eh, I didn't like being told I was like a man, really. But I wasn't willing to conform to certain parts of the culture, and having to act like a "proper woman" happened to be one of those areas, in many ways. Part of being there was definitely understanding that I wasn't going to change the culture. I wasn't going to fit in even it I did conform to expectations, however...so I stuck with being me, and looked at it as a part of why I was there - introducing the Japanese in rural Kagawa to American culture, not just the langauge.
The local elementary school had an "Internationalization club". I was invited there about once a month. Our activities: making Japanese pottery. Cooking Japanese food. Participating in the Japanese tea ceremony (the baa-chan that taught it didn't speak English. I'm left handed, and unconciously mirror imaged everything she did left handedly. I got slapped a lot that visit. @_@). Learning English.
As near as I can determine, to the Japanese, internationalization = making the rest of the world more Japanese, with the exception of using English as the langauge.
Eh, I didn't like being told I was like a man, really. But I wasn't willing to conform to certain parts of the culture, and having to act like a "proper woman" happened to be one of those areas, in many ways. Part of being there was definitely understanding that I wasn't going to change the culture. I wasn't going to fit in even it I did conform to expectations, however...so I stuck with being me, and looked at it as a part of why I was there - introducing the Japanese in rural Kagawa to American culture, not just the langauge.
The local elementary school had an "Internationalization club". I was invited there about once a month. Our activities: making Japanese pottery. Cooking Japanese food. Participating in the Japanese tea ceremony (the baa-chan that taught it didn't speak English. I'm left handed, and unconciously mirror imaged everything she did left handedly. I got slapped a lot that visit. @_@). Learning English.
As near as I can determine, to the Japanese, internationalization = making the rest of the world more Japanese, with the exception of using English as the langauge.
COOL!!! except for the slapping.
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As a hopeless gaijin, I've been waiting for somebody else to explicate the wickedly engendered Japanese language, but nobody has, so, Link.
Wow... that reads like one of the 2-page footnotes at the beginning of a Jack Vance novel.
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But if I call you "froken" in Stockholm,... well, did you want the damn phone back or not? If you're more concerned with the absence of a wedding ring or a diacritical mark than with the absence of your phone,.... I apologize in advance.
Don't think anyone would be offended by an obvious foreigner calling them "fröken" (you'd even get bonus points for using the native language), but whoever you said it too would definitely be amused - and if they were the helpful kind would explain that you sound like you're from the 1950s, and that the "correct" way to address someone in that situation would be an insistent "Ursäkta" ("Pardon me" or Excuse me").
Heh. Last time I was in Vienna, I needed directions, so I addressed a local, "Entschuldigung, meine Dame. Sprechen Sie Englisch, bitte?"
I was pretty sure I'd massively overdone the formality when she replied with a very clipped and impatient, "Of course!"
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I really did like the pottery, and the tea ceremony was incredibly interesting.
On one level it was incredibly insulting to be slapped repeatedly. On the other, even my horribly uncultured gaijin self understood that a venerable 80 year old tea ceremony master has the right to slap anyone for messing up sucha ceremony, and there was no other way for her to communicate. I was alternately annoyed and amused. And no amount of concentrating prevented me from doing everything left handed.
Tea ceremony is crazy stylized. There is a specific way to wipe the lip of the bowl/cup, which requires taking the napkin and folding it in a precise and clearly circumscribed way. And folding it that way, only left handedly backwards, is completely unacceptable.
A funny gendered langauge story: Another JET in Kagawa had much better Japanese than I had. Her goal in life was to be a voice actor. She was in a bar and heard some drunken Japanese salarymen talking about her in...unflattering...terms, assuming she couldn't understand them. After a particularly egregious comment, she whirled around and said in a deep voice "Nan da tou?!?!" - which is incredibly male / blunt / informal.
They ran out of the bar in terror. :)
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until fairly recently, our society thought it was a good idea to let everyone know women's marital statuses, but not men's.When did wedding rings come into vogue? Because they usually make it pretty easy to tell the marital status of any person of either gender, even without having to wait for someone to use an honorific.
The oldest recorded exchange of wedding rings comes from ancient Egypt, about 4800 years ago.
I really did like the pottery, and the tea ceremony was incredibly interesting.
On one level it was incredibly insulting to be slapped repeatedly. On the other, even my horribly uncultured gaijin self understood that a venerable 80 year old tea ceremony master has the right to slap anyone for messing up sucha ceremony, and there was no other way for her to communicate. I was alternately annoyed and amused. And no amount of concentrating prevented me from doing everything left handed.
Tea ceremony is crazy stylized. There is a specific way to wipe the lip of the bowl/cup, which requires taking the napkin and folding it in a precise and clearly circumscribed way. And folding it that way, only left handedly backwards, is completely unacceptable.
A funny gendered langauge story: Another JET in Kagawa had much better Japanese than I had. Her goal in life was to be a voice actor. She was in a bar and heard some drunken Japanese salarymen talking about her in...unflattering...terms, assuming she couldn't understand them. After a particularly egregious comment, she whirled around and said in a deep voice "Nan da tou?!?!" - which is incredibly male / blunt / informal.
They ran out of the bar in terror. :)
southpaws should be left unmolested! And to be a fly on the wall for the latter...
Now if only we could get rid of the the titular "De" (a more formal version of "du" - meaning "you" - although the same word also means them or those. I guess the closest word would be "Thee")
I think it's actually the other way around. You is the formal form (ie. 'De') of the informal Thee (ie. 'du') that has gone out of use. I also think it's largely out of use in the 'real world', save for addressing old folks or royalty (who, I suppose, qualify as old folk :p)
Anyway, at least when it comes to a country like Denmark, I think it's more like we like to think that everyone's roughly equal. That guy might be the manager of the company, but he likes to think of himself as 'one of the guys', and the guys like to think that their manager isn't 'better than them by default'. Without a lot of ranked society, the kind of implied ranking you get with these polite terms of address becomes meaningless.
And I think that's pretty essential to the Scandinavian outlook in general.
(On the flip side, I also hate when random people get way too familiar. Like if the manager of my company signs a letter with 'kærlig hilsen', which is essentially signing the letter with 'with love' which is... pretty inappropriate. :p)
Lots of different cultures, sometimes within the same country. Wow.
Telling someone in Sweden they forgot the phone is easy: Ursäkta mig, jag tror du glömde mobilen. (Excuse me, I think you forgot the phone)
Think about it. No pronoun problems AT ALL! Absolutely nobody would be insulted in the least by saying that. You could say that to our king and it would be okay. If you tried using titles, however, and used the wrong one, however, someone might conceivably get insulted.
That is not to say we don't have people who think this is very important stuff. We have amoeba-royalists too. But, even them you can call 'du'.
We're also on a first name basis with our teachers and whatnot, around these parts. I think it would be pretty quirky if a teacher insisted on being called by their last name.
At least on this side of 1970. :)
I like to use "hey you".Sadly, during my time living in Philly, I found myself saying "hey youse".
Are you sure that you didn't mistake Philadelphia for Dublin?