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This may be a rather foolish question, but at a table of three, who chooses which pregenerated character the GM will play? Locally, it seems to be the players' choice, but I was wondering if that's the norm everywhere. Is there any reason or rule that prevents the GM from choosing? If not, would such a thing be a breach of etiquette?
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My guess would be the GM. What the Guide says is:
In cases in which you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table of three players, and play an official level-appropriate pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum table size of four PCs.
To me, that sounds like it's basically a GMPC, so the GM should pick.
That being said -- whenever I've run a fourth character as a GM pregen, it's always been obvious where the hole in the party was. And, in fact, the few times I've done it, it's always been the same hole, and I've always run Kyra.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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The players should probably pick, since they know what their party can and can't do better than the GM, but I could see where a GM might veto their selection if he/she doesn't think they can play it effectively (such as not being familiar with mounted combat for Hayato, or being wary of Seelah's paladin code for an ethically-suspect mission).
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Why don't the pregens get a say in this? Why does poor, overworked Kyra have to go on yet another mission as party band-aid while Merisiel continues to sit on her arse? Where's the equality? Where's the representation? The fact that the question is framed as "players or GM?" with no mention of the pregen's feelings just proves the tyranny! End it, I say! Let the pregens decide for themselves!
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Why don't the pregens get a say in this? Why does poor, overworked Kyra have to go on yet another mission as party band-aid while Merisiel continues to sit on her arse? Where's the equality? Where's the representation? The fact that the question is framed as "players or GM?" with no mention of the pregen's feelings just proves the tyranny! End it, I say! Let the pregens decide for themselves!
Everyone knows that Kyra is a micro-managing control freak, who can't stand to think of people succeeding without her help.
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If the answer to this question matters, then the players and GM should go home without playing. Seriously. If the players and GM can't discuss this like mature adults and come to an agreement based on the holes in the party's abilities, then I can only imagine how badly the rest of the session will go.
And yeah, that usually means picking Kyra, because what group couldn't use a healer?
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If the answer to this question matters, then the players and GM should go home without playing. Seriously. If the players and GM can't discuss this like mature adults and come to an agreement based on the holes in the party's abilities, then I can only imagine how badly the rest of the session will go.
And yeah, that usually means picking Kyra, because what group couldn't use a healer?
A table that has a healer, but no front line? :-)
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There is no official rule, but since the GM's playing it, and the GM is... well, the GM, the GM would logically have the final say.
That said, the GM doesn't really have any vested interest in what pregen is played, so usually if the players request a specific pregen, GMs will oblige.
I don't think I have ever seen the GM play the 4th character - in my experience the GM has one of the players play it in addition to their own character.
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A table that has a healer, but no front line? :-)If the answer to this question matters, then the players and GM should go home without playing. Seriously. If the players and GM can't discuss this like mature adults and come to an agreement based on the holes in the party's abilities, then I can only imagine how badly the rest of the session will go.
And yeah, that usually means picking Kyra, because what group couldn't use a healer?
I did say "usually". I've never seen anything but Kyra and Valeros used as the 4th to fill a party, and Kyra is MUCH more popular.
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I did say "usually". I've never seen anything but Kyra and Valeros used as the 4th to fill a party, and Kyra is MUCH more popular.A table that has a healer, but no front line? :-)If the answer to this question matters, then the players and GM should go home without playing. Seriously. If the players and GM can't discuss this like mature adults and come to an agreement based on the holes in the party's abilities, then I can only imagine how badly the rest of the session will go.
And yeah, that usually means picking Kyra, because what group couldn't use a healer?
You're absolutely right. I was just being funny (poorly). It seems like unless there is a reason not to go with Kyra she is the go to girl.
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I've now experienced a table with a pre-gen eight times in my PFS career, two times as a GM and six times as a player. So far, the pre-gens used have been:
Level 1 Reiku
Level 1 Kyra
Level 1 Reiku
Level 4 Valeros
Level 4 Ezren
Level 4 Ezren
Level 4 Kyra
Level 1 KyraSo Kyra has a plurality, but no a majority.
Wow, you're much more organized then me. I haven't a clue how often someone used a pre-gen. Very cool.
Does that include players that didn't have a character to play as well as filling a 3 player table?
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I did say "usually". I've never seen anything but Kyra and Valeros used as the 4th to fill a party, and Kyra is MUCH more popular.A table that has a healer, but no front line? :-)If the answer to this question matters, then the players and GM should go home without playing. Seriously. If the players and GM can't discuss this like mature adults and come to an agreement based on the holes in the party's abilities, then I can only imagine how badly the rest of the session will go.
And yeah, that usually means picking Kyra, because what group couldn't use a healer?
I've now experienced a table with a pre-gen eight times in my PFS career, two times as a GM and six times as a player. So far, the pre-gens used have been:
Level 1 Reiku
Level 1 Kyra
Level 1 Reiku
Level 4 Valeros
Level 4 Ezren
Level 4 Ezren
Level 4 Kyra
Level 1 KyraSo Kyra has a plurality, but no a majority.
Were those all tables with 3 players and a pregen for the 4th, or were some of those tables where a player was using a pregen because they didn't have their own PC? I've seen a wide variety of pregens used when players are picking what to play, but as a 4th for a 3rd person table, it's almost always "Do we have a healer? Do we have a front line?" and the result is Kyra probably 80% of the time and Valeros otherwise.
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Why don't the pregens get a say in this? Why does poor, overworked Kyra have to go on yet another mission as party band-aid while Merisiel continues to sit on her arse? Where's the equality? Where's the representation? The fact that the question is framed as "players or GM?" with no mention of the pregen's feelings just proves the tyranny! End it, I say! Let the pregens decide for themselves!
Or poor Ezren... he has died solo many time in our lodge that it is now a running joke.
Developer
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Why don't the pregens get a say in this? Why does poor, overworked Kyra have to go on yet another mission as party band-aid while Merisiel continues to sit on her arse? Where's the equality? Where's the representation? The fact that the question is framed as "players or GM?" with no mention of the pregen's feelings just proves the tyranny! End it, I say! Let the pregens decide for themselves!
I keep imagining how 4th- and 7th- level Kyra drops another bag full of gold at the local wand merchant to buy a new wand of cure light wounds; surely this one she will be able to keep fully charged for a whole day.
Pathfinder Jim: Kyra! Kyyyyyyyyyraaaaaa! We need your class abil– erm...We miss having you along yesterday. You missed out on awesome lootz.
Kyra: Sarenrae does not approve of purposeful misspelling, for it is a sign of growing corruption. Also, I know full well that you only wish me to accompany you so that I might use all of my expendable items in lieu of you ever using yours.
Pathfinder Sally: What? No! That's not it at all! We really like how you memorize...cleric spells, and, uh...
Pathfinder Bob: ...cure light wounds...
Pathfinder Jim: And there was that time that you cast, err...
Pathfinder Bob: ...cure moderate wounds. On a good day sometimes she can cast cure critical wounds.
Pathfinder Jim: Haha, yeah! See, Kyra, we totally understand and appreciate you! Lolz :-)
Kyra: Shorthand emotional abbreviations are the language of The Rough Beast. Begone! You simply wish to drain yet another one of my wands of all of its charges, provide me none of the scenario rewards, and then complain when dungeon denizens continue to punish you for poor tactical choices.
Pathfinder Sally: Well, I guess we could always bug Lini and make her memorize nothing but healing spells.
Pathfinder Bob: Good idea! Whooo! We gots teh healz!
Silly Pathfinders...
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I keep imagining how 4th- and 7th- level Kyra drops another bag full of gold at the local wand merchant to buy a new wand of cure light wounds; surely this one she will be able to keep fully charged for a whole day.
Pathfinder Jim: Kyra! Kyyyyyyyyyraaaaaa! We need your class abil– erm...We miss having you along yesterday. You missed out on awesome lootz.
Kyra: Sarenrae does not approve of purposeful misspelling, for it is a sign of growing corruption. Also, I know full well that you only wish me to accompany you so that I might use all of my expendable items in lieu of you ever using yours.
Pathfinder Sally: What? No! That's not it at all! We really like how you memorize...cleric spells, and, uh...
Pathfinder Bob: ...cure light wounds...
Pathfinder Jim: And there was that time that you cast, err...
Pathfinder Bob: ...cure moderate wounds. On a good day sometimes she can cast cure critical wounds.
Pathfinder Jim: Haha, yeah! See, Kyra, we totally understand and appreciate you! Lolz :-)
Kyra: Shorthand emotional abbreviations are the language of The Rough Beast. Begone! You simply wish to drain yet another one of my wands of all of its charges, provide me none of the scenario rewards, and then complain when dungeon denizens continue to punish you for poor tactical choices.
Pathfinder Sally: Well, I guess we could always bug Lini and make her...
If you imagine it, John, it can be done.
In other words, I totally want to see this.
You just won Pathfinder, John.
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Usually, I let the players decide which of the pregens makes for that 4th PC.
However, depending on the party makeup, I have seen Kyra, Ezren, Valerios or Merisiel. Kyra is one of the main choices, but the others have seen some play.
Then again, I still remember the game where we had 5 players, but two ran pregens (Valeros and the ninja, IIRC), and my Magus was the party healer. Until I rolled that 1 on my UMD check (after 7 successful checks, not bad at only +5) for the only CLW wand in the party, which also happened to be my Magus's. After that game, I shelled out for a wand of Infernal Healing for my Magus, but I do have the books for it.
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When I am GMing I let the players choose which pregen they take along with them.
How familiar I am with the scenario and how I am feeling on the day will determine who controls the pregen.
I would rather take control over the Ky- the pregens as the players often have a thing about not preserving their life that much.
I still remember the cheers from other GMs the first time Kyra made it out of a 3 player table alive when I was GMing.
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I keep imagining how 4th- and 7th- level Kyra drops another bag full of gold at the local wand merchant to buy a new wand of cure light wounds; surely this one she will be able to keep fully charged for a whole day.
Pathfinder Jim: Kyra! Kyyyyyyyyyraaaaaa! We need your class abil– erm...We miss having you along yesterday. You missed out on awesome lootz.
Kyra: Sarenrae does not approve of purposeful misspelling, for it is a sign of growing corruption. Also, I know full well that you only wish me to accompany you so that I might use all of my expendable items in lieu of you ever using yours.
Pathfinder Sally: What? No! That's not it at all! We really like how you memorize...cleric spells, and, uh...
Pathfinder Bob: ...cure light wounds...
Pathfinder Jim: And there was that time that you cast, err...
Pathfinder Bob: ...cure moderate wounds. On a good day sometimes she can cast cure critical wounds.
Pathfinder Jim: Haha, yeah! See, Kyra, we totally understand and appreciate you! Lolz :-)
Kyra: Shorthand emotional abbreviations are the language of The Rough Beast. Begone! You simply wish to drain yet another one of my wands of all of its charges, provide me none of the scenario rewards, and then complain when dungeon denizens continue to punish you for poor tactical choices.
Pathfinder Sally: Well, I guess we could always bug Lini and make her...
I like how in your world of Pathfinder, John, that everyone but clerics use shorthand "text" speech. Haha
I can just imagine Pathfinders walking around Absalom and any time they hear a funny joke, they don't laugh, they just say, "Lolz".
But I digress. Any time that I have to run a table of three, I almost ALWAYS let the PC's pick who the Pre-gen will be. It's more fair, in my opinion. I've only had one case where the players were "playing the system" and I had to step in and change who they picked. It was a 1-5 scenario and they were level 1,1, and 2. Fighter, Rogue, Cleric I believe. They wanted to pick the 4th level Cleric so that way they could just have her heal with her wand and call it a day. I explained that, doing that was not in the spirit of the game and could pick the first level version instead and still have her heal the party. So...They went with Lem (First level bard) instead and the PC cleric healed.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Or poor Ezren... he has died solo many time in our lodge that it is now a running joke.
You must not have heard how I wrecked the first combat in Fortress of the Nail with my GMPC Ezren. Everybody was lined up, and a high-damage lightning bolt killed 2 of the 3 enemies before they even got to act.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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When I ran Fortress of the Nail, one of our regulars was playing Kyra-7. To her credit she was really trying to roleplay Kyra.
I almost got her to sabotage the mission when I stole a heresy from the boards here. She was playing up the 'being uncomfortable surrounded by Asmodaeus worhipers' bit, and I ran with it.
"You appear to be most disconcerted."
"Oh, you noticed."
"I did, but fail to see why. Followers of Asmodaeus' consort are always welcome here."
"WHAT?"
:-)
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To me, Pre-gens are a GREAT roleplaying tool! Though each Pre-gen has their own story that the PC's can use a basis for their roleplaying, I like how players pick a character they think is cool and give it this unique, engaging personality. To name a few that i've experienced in my time as a GM:
Kyra-7: As the reverend, Al Sharpton
Valeros-7: Generic, stereotypical frat boy
Amiri-1: Always complaining because her sword is "SOOO heavy" and kept trying to have her party members carry it for her.
Ezren-7: Complaining that it's so hard to walk at his old age.
Lini-4: Oblivious to the fact that her animal companion, DrooGami, is following her and has the attention span of a goldfish.
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This may be a rather foolish question, but at a table of three, who chooses which pregenerated character the GM will play? Locally, it seems to be the players' choice, but I was wondering if that's the norm everywhere. Is there any reason or rule that prevents the GM from choosing? If not, would such a thing be a breach of etiquette?
Although the GM is supposed to run the pregen, at every table I've been at, the GM had another (experienced) player play the pregen. The GM already has enough to worry about.
You'd think the choice of pregen would fall on the group, since they know what they need better than anyone else. That's been the case at every table I've played.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Although the GM is supposed to run the pregen, at every table I've been at, the GM had another (experienced) player play the pregen. The GM already has enough to worry about.
One time I was put in charge of a level 7 Kyra, and she selflessly ran through a wall of fire to heroically heal my fallen monk. Crazy, huh?
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One time I was put in charge of a level 7 Kyra, and she selflessly ran through a wall of fire to heroically heal my fallen monk. Crazy, huh?Although the GM is supposed to run the pregen, at every table I've been at, the GM had another (experienced) player play the pregen. The GM already has enough to worry about.
You'd think she'd know that fire doesn't block the area of effect of channeled positive energy. No wonder Kyra can't get past level 7 - she never learns anything from all her experiences!
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I have dropped subtle hints in helping the small party decide what you need. it always seems like they lack both a cleric and a rogue. and sometimes an arcane caster. so it can get dicey, they really need all three to be a balanced party. if it's a melee-heavy scenario, I ask how much healing they may need. if it's a dungeon crawl, does anyone have trap finding, etc.
I actually prefer the cleric or rogue to run as NPCs. you're mostly rolling some skill checks or healing, and shouldn't be swinging the combat one way or the other. I would feel bad if the NPC ended up hogging all of the glory.