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Play the character you want to play.
Play what you want to play... without shooting yourself in the foot.
That said, I don't know much about cavaliers, but what's most optimal varies between what your trying to make. A cleric focused on offensive casting and nothing to do with channeling wants something different than the one who wants to buff and channel.
I also don't know your area, but it really does vary. The locals I used to play with really varied. Some really liked optimizing, but others thought a rogue with 5 con was a great idea. One of my friends had a GM tell him he never wanted him at his table because he was too powergamey, but the guy hadn't optimized at all. Sometimes you just can't win either.
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It can go either way, really.
Balanced will make your character average at everything, good at nothing.
Min-maxing will make your character great at something, not good at something else.
Not having an 18 isn't a crime, but you may find yourself looking for some high numbers on the dice. Having said that, if it means the difference between not dying on -12hp, it might be worth it.
Think of what kinds of sacrifices you might be willing to make, but don't move too far out of your comfort zone to do it.
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Strike a balance... the second one is far from min/max'd and will make the combat portion of the game more fun as you will do better. if you are a melee or ranged damage dealing class and neither of these stats provide a good chance to hit, then you may become frustrated in the long run.
Remember regardless of stats RP is all up to you.
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Its hard to RP when your only action is "roll to congeal"
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Strike a balance... the second one is far from min/max'd and will make the combat portion of the game more fun as you will do better. if you are a melee or ranged damage dealing class and neither of these stats provide a good chance to hit, then you may become frustrated in the long run.
Remember regardless of stats RP is all up to you.
+1 to several comments here.
While I will always advocate being willing to take a (minor) hit to combat-monkey-itude for the sake of roleplaying flavor, just make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot by spreading yourself too thin.
I'll agree that the second set of stats is probably going to be a more solid choice for PFS play due to the nature of the game requiring combat to happen in most cases rather than roleplay or circumvention.
However, to really give you a solid analysis, I'd need to know more about what you have in mind for your character. What are your concepts? What do you want your character to be able to do? What is their backstory?
As a GM, I always encourage players to roleplay and make their characters special and unique in their own ways, and I reserve judgement on a character and their build until I see it in action. I'd much rather see the person with the "average" stat spread that helps support the party and contributes to the party's success in a way that makes it fun for everyone, than to see the "optimized" character obliterate combat while leaving no real opening for anyone else to have a chance to shine.
You can roleplay how you want, regardless of the statblock.
That being said, I'd go for a statblock more like the second one, but with more focus on Con and less on Dex (you can wear heavy armor, after all). So a 15/14/14/10/10/12 sounds best to me, or you could take the Str down to 14, and get Int or Wis up to 13 if you want the skill points or Will saves/Perception.
Its hard to RP when your only action is "roll to congeal"
That's my goblin's favorite full-round action!
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Focused or spread out? Depends on the character. I've made characters with stats (before racial adjustments) as different as 16/15/14/12/10/7 and 14/14/13/13/12/12. Both of those stat spreads are from characters who have reached 8th level or higher without dying, and both have been tons of fun to roleplay.
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VerdantSF,
It depends entirely on the style of cavalier you want to play. I have a level 15 halfling Order of the Sword cavalier (Venture Captain Grayson and his faithful WARPIG! Ozzy), and have had an incredible time with him throughout his career. Probably the most fun PC I have had in nearly 30 years of gaming.
His starting stats were
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 16
At level 12, he had reached
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 9 (hey, he got EVER so slightly more observant)
Cha: 16
He does ridiculous amounts of damage while mounted, has a decent armor class in +5 full plate, and acts as party face most of the time.
On the minus side of things, he is quite obviously a glass cannon. The low Constitution has taken him out of the fight on more than one occasion, and his low Wisdom means that most of the time he is not aware of what is going on until Ozzy starts jumping around. He is also somewhat prone to being gullible.
Even with those flaws, he has been immensely fun to play as a sort of out-of-touch halfling playboy who always thinks he is in charge.
I guess my point is, play the character build you want. Don't worry so much about whether a +1 here or a -1 there is going to impact the table as a whole. Be prepared with ways to deal with the negative bits you build in, and roleplay them to the hilt.
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Personally, I will typically dump either Str and/or Cha if they are not "useful" to the particular build I am running (my monk has a 7 cha, my magus has a 5 cha, and my wizard has a 7 str and cha). I will never dump other stats unless I am aiming for a very specific build (7 dex on a nature oracle for example), or I am going for a very specific RP concept that merits it.
As far as maxing stats, though, if I play a spellcaster I always jump for the 20. I want my spellcasting to be absolute. If I am not building a spellcaster though, a 16 or 18 after racial modifiers is almost always enough for me to do what the character was built to do with great success.
First of all, OP, my first piece of advice is, no matter what anyone here says, play what you want.
Second, here is the stat array that I usually go with on any character (arranged differently depending on what stats are more useful where) 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10.
Third, if you are a cavalier, my advice is that since you can wear heavy armor (which restricts dex, and most dex based skills), and most likely should wear heavy armor, you won't need such a high dex. So my suggestion is give dex a 12 at most. You're better off with more con for HP, or int for skill points, or maybe cha (don't some of the Cav's special abilities depend on cha?), IMHO.
First of all, OP, my first piece of advice is, no matter what anyone here says, play what you want.
"I want to play a wizard with 5 con without illusion or conjuration!" -said a very short lived wizard.
Some ideas may live longer than others mind you.
16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10Nitpick: that's only 19 points.
Hey Jiggy -
I thought the points worked out like this:
16 = 10
14 = 6
12 = 2
10 = 0
Am I missing something?
First of all, OP, my first piece of advice is, no matter what anyone here says, play what you want."I want to play a wizard with 5 con without illusion or conjuration!" -said a very short lived wizard.
Some ideas may live longer than others mind you.
True, but I think that's part of the learning process for those that are adamant to play characters with an untenable mechanics build, despite any advice given.
A 14 costs 5 points, not 6 points.
Huh, well ain't that somethin'. Alright, my advice is to turn one of those 12s into a 13.
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Personally, I will typically dump either Str and/or Cha if they are not "useful" to the particular build I am running (my monk has a 7 cha, my magus has a 5 cha, and my wizard has a 7 str and cha). I will never dump other stats unless I am aiming for a very specific build (7 dex on a nature oracle for example), or I am going for a very specific RP concept that merits it.
As far as maxing stats, though, if I play a spellcaster I always jump for the 20. I want my spellcasting to be absolute. If I am not building a spellcaster though, a 16 or 18 after racial modifiers is almost always enough for me to do what the character was built to do with great success.
So, did you "go for the 20" on your Magus build?
I have characters who are extremely focused in their states (23 int at level 1 for my next witch) and I have had character who are very divers (both my TWF Viking and my Tengu Samuri are spread pretty even).
I have found what I do depends very heavily on what I need for the build to take off.
For a witch all I really need is int and enough con to stay alive so that is what I did.
For my TWF I needed Str for damage and to hit, dex for TWF feats enough con to stay alive and enough Int to not be helpless on skills. I actually wound up using the human alternative to bump two stats.
For my Tengu because he is order of the tomb for divine spells I needed Str Wis with enough con and int to stay alive and get the skills to fuile the order of the tome abilities.
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I have characters who are extremely focused in their states (23 int at level 1 for my next witch) and I have had character who are very divers (both my TWF Viking and my Tengu Samuri are spread pretty even).
How do you get Int to 23 at first level? Or is this for a non-PFS game, where the heritages are legal, so you can take Aasimar, 18 purchased, +2 racial, +2 from a heritage, +1 from ?
There is a boon from the grand convocation last year that potentially grants +1 wisdom, and the few goblins that are around get +4 dex but neither of those is the answer here.
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So, did you "go for the 20" on your Magus build?Personally, I will typically dump either Str and/or Cha if they are not "useful" to the particular build I am running (my monk has a 7 cha, my magus has a 5 cha, and my wizard has a 7 str and cha). I will never dump other stats unless I am aiming for a very specific build (7 dex on a nature oracle for example), or I am going for a very specific RP concept that merits it.
As far as maxing stats, though, if I play a spellcaster I always jump for the 20. I want my spellcasting to be absolute. If I am not building a spellcaster though, a 16 or 18 after racial modifiers is almost always enough for me to do what the character was built to do with great success.
No. While Magus's cast spells, I do not consider them a primary spellcaster (at least in comparison to cleric, druid, wizard, ect.).
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While Magus's cast spells, I do not consider them a primary spellcaster (at least in comparison to cleric, druid, wizard, ect.).Magi aren't spellcasters, they're martials with a large pool of powerful, short-duration buffs!
Agreed sir! That's why I didn't spring for that 20. My wizard is rocking a 39 Int anyhow, so I've got my ridiculous DC caster covered.
I have characters who are extremely focused in their states (23 int at level 1 for my next witch) and I have had character who are very divers (both my TWF Viking and my Tengu Samuri are spread pretty even).How do you get Int to 23 at first level? Or is this for a non-PFS game, where the heritages are legal, so you can take Aasimar, 18 purchased, +2 racial, +2 from a heritage, +1 from ?Err... if you mean the Aasimar heritages from Blood of Angels, they are PFS legal, but the racial ability modifiers replace the normal Aasimar ability modifiers.
To my knowledge, the only way to start with an ability score at 22 in PFS is to buy it up to 18 (the maximum allowed under the point buy system), have a racial +2, and then use the boons from ** spoiler omitted ** grant another +2.
I have no idea where the last +1 comes from.
Rivalry's End GM credit and then play. :D
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I have characters who are extremely focused in their states (23 int at level 1 for my next witch) and I have had character who are very divers (both my TWF Viking and my Tengu Samuri are spread pretty even).How do you get Int to 23 at first level? Or is this for a non-PFS game, where the heritages are legal, so you can take Aasimar, 18 purchased, +2 racial, +2 from a heritage, +1 from ?Err... if you mean the Aasimar heritages from Blood of Angels, they are PFS legal, but the racial ability modifiers replace the normal Aasimar ability modifiers.
To my knowledge, the only way to start with an ability score at 22 in PFS is to buy it up to 18 (the maximum allowed under the point buy system), have a racial +2, and then use the boons from ** spoiler omitted ** grant another +2.
I have no idea where the last +1 comes from.
Rivalry's End GM credit and then play. :D
** spoiler omitted **
Well, it won't quite be first level - you need to be at least 3rd before you can apply rivalry credit. But it's still quite high early on!
I do believe the retirement arcs allowed you to apply to person out of tier. It actually doesn't matter since the character was already credited up to three before I applied Rivalry's End.
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I do believe the retirement arcs allowed you to apply to person out of tier. It actually doesn't matter since the character was already credited up to three before I applied Rivalry's End.The exception was only made for GM credit on characters ABOVE seventh level, so you couldn't apply it to a first level character, which is why I didn't consider it (or Way of the Kirin) when trying to figure out how you could have a 23 at level one.
You could do the standard "hold-the-chronicle" thing for the GM credit, but you'd still have to be level three before the 14th in order to get the boon.
GM credit for above-tier only is my understanding as well.
You have to be level 3 and have played before the 14 was my understanding.
But we digress.
My opinion on multiple stats being decent vs one very high stat is that if you can get away with one very high stat do it, but that many classes and builds require multiple stats to be decent to function. This is perfectly acceptable in my mind.
in their states (23 int at level 1 for my next witch) and I have had character who are very divers (both my TWF Viking and my Tengu Samuri are spread pretty even).
Rivalry's End GM credit and then play. :D
Sorry, I still don't understand how you get to an Int of 23. You can't apply a playing and a GM scenario credit to the same character.
Base = 18Race = +2
Rivarly's End = +1
That's 21 (and only at 3rd level, not 1st level). Where is the other +2 coming from?
In real life, there are highly successful people, geniuses, at what they do best. Whether they are sports stars or scientists, they are the best at what they do. And after I’ve met some of them it’s obvious to me that a lot of them can’t do “everything”. As a matter of fact, some of them have never even learned basic things, like how to cook a basic meal or do a load of laundry. Some reality TV shows show celebrities struggling with very basic stuff. They’re that specialized. And yet, they are more successful than 99.999999% (rounded up) of the population.
When we’re in a PFS group or in real life, you want to be good at what you do. Or ideally, the best.
We’re in a team for a reason; you don’t have to be great at everything.
The problem with trying to be good at everything, is that you end up being good at nothing.
If you want 14s in everything, that’s OK, but realize you’re playing a concept character, and you probably won’t be as effective at your role compared to other PCs who are more specialized. That’s not playing the game wrong, but you just have to play the game with that realization. In other words, realize that this PC should probably not be playing in “challenging” scenarios and that if you get 2-3 PCs like this in a party, it’s probably better to play a different PC.
Concerning your specific arrays, neither is particularly optimal, even the 2nd array is hardly optimal. And like others have said, cavaliers have a hard time in PFS, even if they are small.
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In real life, there are highly successful people, geniuses, at what they do best. Whether they are sports stars or scientists, they are the best at what they do. And after I’ve met some of them it’s obvious to me that a lot of them can’t do “everything”. As a matter of fact, some of them have never even learned basic things, like how to cook a basic meal or do a load of laundry. Some reality TV shows show celebrities struggling with very basic stuff. They’re that specialized. And yet, they are more successful than 99.999999% (rounded up) of the population.
When we’re in a PFS group or in real life, you want to be good at what you do. Or ideally, the best.
We’re in a team for a reason; you don’t have to be great at everything.
The problem with trying to be good at everything, is that you end up being good at nothing.
If you want 14s in everything, that’s OK, but realize you’re playing a concept character, and you probably won’t be as effective at your role compared to other PCs who are more specialized. That’s not playing the game wrong, but you just have to play the game with that realization. In other words, realize that this PC should probably not be playing in “challenging” scenarios and that if you get 2-3 PCs like this in a party, it’s probably better to play a different PC.
Concerning your specific arrays, neither is particularly optimal, even the 2nd array is hardly optimal. And like others have said, cavaliers have a hard time in PFS, even if they are small.
Some builds require far more specialization than others. My cleric started with three 14s and a 16 and he does just fine in "challenging" scenarios.
Some builds require far more specialization than others. My cleric started with three 14s and a 16 and he does just fine in "challenging" scenarios.
I'm guessing he is channel focused, but that's a special case. Rules and generalizations never apply to every case, there are always exceptions.
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Having focused/spread out attributes doesn't equate to having a good time in PFS.
My two favorite characters had the following stat spreads at level 1. Both are level 12+ now.
Character A) STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 16
Character B) STR: 10 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 8 WIS: 20 CHA: 8
Character B required a high casting stat, I thought, to be as effective as possible. But I didn't derive the most enjoyment from casting spells. The character was just fun.
Character A required no high stats, and was fun to play because he was versatile, and didn't have any weaknesses in his attributes. And he was simply fun by concept.
Both still were excellent party members and carried the party through encounters they otherwise would have failed.
So, for anyone reading this in the future since the OP is already up and running, I'd recommend exactly what the first response in this thread suggested.
Play the character you want to play.
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Some builds require far more specialization than others. My cleric started with three 14s and a 16 and he does just fine in "challenging" scenarios.I'm guessing he is channel focused, but that's a special case. Rules and generalizations never apply to every case, there are always exceptions.
Well, he just kind of does whatever needs to be done. He has a couple of channeling feats, but being a generalist cleric is pretty effective because few of the spells I cast give saving throws. And sometimes its fun and useful to bash in some heads.