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So, there seems to be some unclear wording on these.
Taking Wolf Shaman as the example.
At 6th level, a wolf shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2.
It does not say it replaces Wild Shape or that the Druid GAINS Wild Shape at 6th level, just that at 6th level "it functions at" the Druid level -2.
The problem I see with this is that what this means is that as written it effectively, means that at level 4 and 5, the Wild Shape functions as normal for all shapes, having a duration of 4 hours at 4th, 5 hours at 5th...and then dropping back down to 4 hours at 6th.
So it seems to me that this is some sort of typo, since it makes little sense for that to be the way it works.
I've seen it around quite a few times in the past months, which makes it FAQ material in my book.
So, succinct question for the FAQ:
Do the Animal Shaman Druids gain Wild Shape at 4th as normal, or is this a typo and they are intended to gain it at 6th?
I can't find it but I remember finding a note from the author saying it was intended that you get Wild Shape at 6th level and not earlier, but I'm having trouble finding it now.
There is no question in my mind that Animal Shamans do not get Wild Shape at all until 6th level.
I wouldn't even think it's unclear enough to warrant a FAQ, to be honest. However, I will dutifully click it, just so I don't have to hear people whining about it at least once a week.
"Oh, but it makes my wild shaping worse!"
Yes, yes it does. It's a bad archetype for a Wild Shaper.
"Oh, but it doesn't say it replaces!"
It doesn't have to. It's the ability itself. There's no new name or anything, it's just flat out called Wild Shape, and you get it at 6th.
As a followup question:
If they do only gain Wildshape at 6th, the archetype fails at its surmised purpose (to be a Wildshape centric character who is better than a normal druid with regards to a single animal type) compared to a standard druid, so why was it even printed?
Because they are not wildshape centric at all. The Animal Shamans are designed to be great summoners, and they are--well, some of them are (Saurian, Eagle, Lion).
They are terrible Wild Shapers, and they were never meant to be powerful ones--thematic ones, for sure, but not powerful. Their abilities simply soften the blow with thematic animals, that's all.
Shamans summon. Base druids wildshape. Well, and Menhir Savants--they're just "better Druid."
Shbumpity bump.
Shiggidy diggity.
Oh, and I know the author intent, but if I recall the last thread FAQing this was marked "No Reply Required", when obviously there IS if it's still being asked.
That is true you get wildshape at lvl 6, so totem transformation until then. A regular druid gets wildshape at 4 but these archtypes delay that for a little bit.
As an additional note though, if (for example a Saurian Shaman) wild shapes into a reptile or a dinosaur, they get a +2 on their druid level. To some people (me included) that's good enough reason to delay wildshape.
As an additional note though, if (for example a Saurian Shaman) wild shapes into a reptile or a dinosaur, they get a +2 on their druid level. To some people (me included) that's good enough reason to delay wildshape.
Having better wild shaping for level 6 and 7 is worth not having Wild Shape at all for 4 and 5?
That would be the user's preference, if they think that it's worth it. You get totem transformation too.
So it's up to you to decide if you want a better wild shape at 6 and 7 together with totem transformations over a wild shape at 4 and 5. At least with Saurian Shaman you're choice are not that limited since it says reptiles and dinosaurs.
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That would be the user's preference, if they think that it's worth it. You get totem transformation too.
So it's up to you to decide if you want a better wild shape at 6 and 7 together with totem transformations over a wild shape at 4 and 5. At least with Saurian Shaman you're choice are not that limited since it says reptiles and dinosaurs.
Personally I don't mind the delay.
Aaaand, back up to the top we go.
Also, I don't think it's a "better" Wild Shape at all. It trades a lot of the versatility (which is the main power of) Wild Shape for being slightly better at turning into a certain kind of creature.
Saurian Shaman is probably the most versatile, but it's still limited, basically, to Lizards, Snakes, and Bigass Lizards and Snakes while being worse at turning into those nice utility forms like squirrels and other inconspicuous woodland creatures, and animals with an X Speed (be it Climb, Swim, Fly, or Burrow).
You forgot dinosaurs, and that makes it a different ball game compared to the other shamans, cause you're not limited to a small selection of animals. I'm not saying it's the best but it has a wider variety and I think that's the only thing it has over the rest. Like Shfish above, he or she successfully managed to use the ape shaman which I for some reason can't think of a good backstory for it aha!
Also, I don't think it's a "better" Wild Shape at all. It trades a lot of the versatility (which is the main power of) Wild Shape for being slightly better at turning into a certain kind of creature.
Like I said, user preference.
Boomp.
As I have stated before, our group interprets it as written, meaning that the wild shape feature changes at level 6. That means the animal shaman druid gains wild shape as normal at level 4 and it works as normal at level 5. At level 6 the shaman feature is expressed and the changes are made.
I have repeatedly asked for a developer ruling on this since and have been unable to get one. Although there are plenty of people who claim that the intent is clear, I do not believe this is at all clear.
On the other hand, I have no intention of changing the way we play regardless. I think an "animal shaman" druid whose wild shape is delayed by two levels is conceptually perverse and backwards from a game design perspective.
"By choosing a druid archetype which has extensively studied and is more closely aligned with a single type of animal, your druid will not be able to wild shape AT ALL for two levels after a druid that has done no such level of study."
As I have said before, that's just silly.
Well, as has been stated before, the Shamans are not really Wild Shape specialists, as the name would suggest.
I don't find it silly at all, really.
Well, as has been stated before, the Shamans are not really Wild Shape specialists, as the name would suggest.
I don't find it silly at all, really.
I didn't say they are "wild shape specialists." I said they specialize in aligning with one type of animal. In my view that means that instead of being WORSE at wild shaping into that specific animal type, they SHOULD be better.
Our approach is a poor patch on a bigger problem with the whole shaman archetype design. If I were to have designed the archetype I'd have done it differently. But to say that a druid who is more closely aligned with an animal type can't even wild shape into THAT ANIMAL TYPE until two levels after a generic druid is...
and I repeat....
Silly.
Also, we allow templates so that non dinosaur shamans can be equal in power to dinosaur shamans. But that's primarily just to allow power gaming players to pick a more flavorful shaman type.
Well, as has been stated before, the Shamans are not really Wild Shape specialists, as the name would suggest.
I don't find it silly at all, really.
I didn't say they are "wild shape specialists." I said they specialize in aligning with one type of animal. In my view that means that instead of being WORSE at wild shaping into that specific animal type, they SHOULD be better.
What you seem to be neglecting is that as an animal shaman you actually start transforming at Level 2 instead of level 4 with your totem transformations. Which give you a utility that normal wildshapers never get.
Being a shaman is NOT about just the wildshaping. If it were, than the bonuses to summoning and the optional domains would not be there.
Sheesh, where did I say that being a shaman was "just about wildshaping?" All I said is that a shaman shouldn't lose the ability to wildshape AT ALL until level 6.
Your interpretation here, that a shaman can wild shape at level 2 to their animal type, is an interpretation I have not seen from anyone else. I would actually be OK with that.
Update: I realize you are talking about the totem abilities, not wildshaping. Which is a fair point from a game balance perspective, but still doesn't adress why my wolf specialist druid can't wild shape into a wolf for two levels after a generic druid can.
Because it's right there where you just wrote. The author's intent conflicts with the RAW.
That means it needs to be clarified one way or another. Especially since as written there's a period where a leveling character actually LOSES power instead of gaining it, which speaks to it being a typo in the RAW rather than how it is actually intended to work (by the rest of the team other than the author, who may change things slightly before something is released).
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This is like a bad Monty Python skit.
The author admits his own words don't match his intent.
His intent is to have an animal specialist druid not be able to wild shape into the animal type they have specialized in until two levels after a generic druid can do so.
His words say that he can wild shape at level 4, but at level 6 the wild shaping changes dramatically such that at level six for the majority of animal forms he wildshapes into less powerful forms than he did at level 5.
Requests for clarification of the rule are met with silence because the incorrectly written rule has been identified as the "proper" answer.
And the thing that cracks me up, is that the unintentional wording, as bad as it is, is still better than what the author intended.
And he got PAID for all that.
Love this game.
If the author hadn't specifically said that he wanted the wild shaping delayed entirely until level 6, I would have assumed the intent was for the shaman to be able to wild shape into their totem forms at 4th, but then not be able to shift into other forms until 6th.
Until I saw the author write his intent, I had assumed he just couldn't find good wording for that, and the editors shredded it for something less complicated (All Wild Shaping delayed until 6th).
And I would still question because, while I don't doubt that the author said the RAW is actually that you get it normally at 4th and then it gets worse at 6th, I never saw that post, and further, I disagree with his reading.
The Shaman archetype has an ability called "Wild Shape" at 6th. That is the same name as the core druid's Wild Shape--there's no need for "replace" language because it doesn't replace it, itis the same ability.
Example: a Carnivalist Rogue gets Sneak Attack at 2nd level and every 4 levels after that. However, it never says that the Carnivalist's sneak attack replaces normal sneak attack progression. Does that mean a Carnivalist has two Sneak Attack progressions? One on odd levels and one every four levels starting at 2nd? Of course not, so why would you read the Animal Shaman's Wild Shape differently from that?
And the thing that cracks me up, is that the unintentional wording, as bad as it is, is still better than what the author intended.
And he got PAID for all that.
Love this game.
This is ridiculous. You don't like his intent, but there's nothing wrong with it. Why would you harp on him for making a thematically strong but mechanically weak archetype, but not the dozens of terrible prestige classes, feats, archetypes, and spells for other classes that fall into far worse traps than this?
It seems to me that the fault here is yours, not his--you want the Animal Shaman to be as good at wild shaping into their chosen form as the base druid. Would you strip their amazing summoning with templates as a standard action ability then, instead? What exactly would you intend to trade, then, for that power? The price is delayed Wild Shape, because the archetype focuses on Summoning. You disliking that focus doesn't mean the author was terribad for designing it the way he did.
mpl, I harp on him for poor game design, poor writing and lack of quality control before publishing the result.
Is that clear enough for you?
And the thing that cracks me up, is that the unintentional wording, as bad as it is, is still better than what the author intended.
And he got PAID for all that.
Love this game.
This is ridiculous. You don't like his intent, but there's nothing wrong with it. Why would you harp on him for making a thematically strong but mechanically weak archetype, but not the dozens of terrible prestige classes, feats, archetypes, and spells for other classes that fall into far worse traps than this?
It seems to me that the fault here is yours, not his--you want the Animal Shaman to be as good at wild shaping into their chosen form as the base druid. Would you strip their amazing summoning with templates as a standard action ability then, instead? What exactly would you intend to trade, then, for that power? The price is delayed Wild Shape, because the archetype focuses on Summoning. You disliking that focus doesn't mean the author was terribad for designing it the way he did.
Yes. Most of them are downright terrible. The price being paid for Totemic Summons is A Thousand Faces, as it says in the archetype. I would also note that you are extremly limited in domain/animal companion choice compared to a normal druid anyways.
Although to be fair, Menhir Savant really is the only Druid archetype worth taking, with Saurian Shaman a distant second.
mpl, I harp on him for poor game design, poor writing and lack of quality control before publishing the result.
Is that clear enough for you?
I don't think it's poor game design--or rather, it's not any worse than the majority of archetype design. The shamans are weak, but they are strong summoners and I don't think there's anything wrong with penalizing their wild shape as a result.
You also have no idea how bad his writing was, because it could have been altered significantly from how he wrote it--actually, we know that's the case, since he said as much.
Poor quality control you can criticize and I'd never argue, but that's not the author's fault, that's the fault of the editor. I will definitely agree with you that I think the RPG industry in general suffers from poor editing.
Free lance authors have shockingly little control over the final published version of their words.
mpl, you are more generous than I. I have not heard from any source that the author claims his words were edited poorly. If they were and the result was a complete change from what the author intended, then I'll criticize poor editing.
As it is I'll just criticize poor editing .... too. :)
Alley-oop.
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The Wildshape isn't that penalized IMO, if you know what to expect in the campaign. You can start wildshaping as an 8th level druid at level 6. I is penalized somewhat, especially if you don't know what you are running into, but still is not all that bad the way I see it. For instance, if you know you will be in a campaign with a lot of swimming involved you could choose an aquatic creature to shaman, or if you know you will be in a heavy jungle, you can choose ape shaman. AND you become good at summoning. I think that is worth a 2 level delay.
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1) The Author has stated several times that he thinks the wording is ambiguous. He has made his intent very clear (no wild shape until L6).
To the best of my knowledge has NEVER said that the RAW unambiguously state that one gets Wild Shape at L4.
RAW is ambiguous
2) The Shamans (at least the Lion and Saurian ones) are quite balanced with a normal druid even when not getting wild shape until L6. Being able to summon templatized creatures AS A STANDARD ACTION is a VERY significant advantage. A Shaman is clearly more powerful at L2-3. weaker at L4, its a toss up at L5, and is more powerful at L6-7. Toss up again at L8+ assuming one uses RAW for wildshape. If one adopts the very common House Rule that Shamans can wildshape into the same templates that they can summon then they're more powerful at L8-9. And arguable at L10+.
I think everybody understands that.
The problem, however, IS that the RAW is ambiguous and contradictory to the RAI entirely, which is why I want it FAQ'd.
So, there seems to be some unclear wording on these.
Taking Wolf Shaman as the example.
At 6th level, a wolf shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2.It does not say it replaces Wild Shape or that the Druid GAINS Wild Shape at 6th level, just that at 6th level "it functions at" the Druid level -2.
The problem I see with this is that what this means is that as written it effectively, means that at level 4 and 5, the Wild Shape functions as normal for all shapes, having a duration of 4 hours at 4th, 5 hours at 5th...and then dropping back down to 4 hours at 6th.
So it seems to me that this is some sort of typo, since it makes little sense for that to be the way it works.
I've seen it around quite a few times in the past months, which makes it FAQ material in my book.
So, succinct question for the FAQ:
Do the Animal Shaman Druids gain Wild Shape at 4th as normal, or is this a typo and they are intended to gain it at 6th?
I really don't see the error or typo.
Every 4th level druid gets the ability to Wild Shape. Whether or not they have a Shaman archetype. Show me where it says it's replaced or doesn't happen, and I'll believe it when I read it.
At level 6, the ability is altered so that while not in your totem animal form, normal Wild Shape lasts less time. When you are in your totem form, Wild Shape lasts more time. That's it. That's the extent of the change. This is not gaining a new ability, it's an alteration.
You are specializing in a particular form. So, the rest of the forms you could take suffer a bit. It's a tradeoff. What's the confusion?
EDIT: After re-reading everything again, I believe the confusion lies with the omission of the standard Archetype statement of "This ability replaces <X> or this ability alters <X>."
It's at best an errata that needs the statement "This class feature alters the Wild Shape class feature of the Druid".
Yeah, I guess I don't see how, as there is absolutely nothing that even suggests it in the archetype's wording.
Is it the word "function" that's confusing everyone? Are they thinking that the contextual definition of "function" is to turn on and start working only at the level this ability is altered?
I honestly think the omission of the standard Archetype disclaimer is at fault here.
Yeah, I guess I don't see how, as there is absolutely nothing that even suggests it in the archetype's wording.
Is it the word "function" that's confusing everyone? Are they thinking that the contextual definition of "function" is to turn on and start working only at the level this ability is altered?
I honestly think the omission of the standard Archetype disclaimer is at fault here.
Probably because if one were to WS at -2 level than normal, they won't gain the use of the ability until level 6 (useable 0/day at levels 1-5).
If we were to apply your way of interpretation, this is the ONLY case AFAIK that 'changes how a class feature works mid-progression'. That is why many people including myself see it as a simple omission of a sentence (complete replacement) not some convoluted progression some seem to prefer.
That's not true at all. And, the ability doesn't CHANGE until 6. That doesn't magically, retroactively disqualify you for something you don't even have yet.
Once you get to level 6, the Wild Shape ability you ALREADY HAVE functions as a level 4 druid's would. And if you're in your special form, it functions as a level 8 druid's would.
That's all. That's the change. In no way does this say "Instead of gaining Wild Shape at 4, you don't gain the class feature till 6".
Do casters casting a certain spell at -2 to Caster Level lose all their spell progression? Nope.
Do any other archetypes take an ability away and then give it right back to you at a higher level? Nope.
(Although, gunslinger comes to mind for some reason. I think there's a weird Archetype out there that takes away a deed and gives it back to you later, but it SPECIFIES that it's happening. Animal Shaman does not.)
EDIT: Yep. Pistolero. Takes away the Deadeye deed and gives it back to you a few levels later. If Wild Shape worked like that, the wording would mirror it.
The problem is, and will continue to be, that this particular line in the Animal Shaman selection is missing the standard archetype disclaimer saying how this alternate class feature interacts with the standard class feature. Therefore people are reading way too far into it.
EDIT: After re-reading everything again, I believe the confusion lies with the omission of the standard Archetype statement of "This ability replaces <X> or this ability alters <X>."
It's at best an errata that needs the statement "This class feature...
That, and the fact that the author says it works differently from what the text says.
Yeah, I guess I don't see how, as there is absolutely nothing that even suggests it in the archetype's wording.
Is it the word "function" that's confusing everyone? Are they thinking that the contextual definition of "function" is to turn on and start working only at the level this ability is altered?
I honestly think the omission of the standard Archetype disclaimer is at fault here.
As I said above, then, please explain the Carnivalist to me. Their Sneak attack feature does not say anything about it replacing normal sneak attack. So, do Carnivalists get Sneak attack at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, etc.? By extension of your reading here, that's how it works. I find that troubling.
In an FAQ or Errata? Because those are the only two things that actually change rules.
If it was an offhand opinion, then it's treated as exactly that and nothing more "official".
As I said above, then, please explain the Carnivalist to me. Their Sneak attack feature does not say anything about it replacing normal sneak attack. So, do Carnivalists get Sneak attack at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, etc.? By extension of your reading here, that's how it works. I find that troubling.Yeah, I guess I don't see how, as there is absolutely nothing that even suggests it in the archetype's wording.
Is it the word "function" that's confusing everyone? Are they thinking that the contextual definition of "function" is to turn on and start working only at the level this ability is altered?
I honestly think the omission of the standard Archetype disclaimer is at fault here.
Irrelevant. This is not a thread about the Carnivalist. It's about Animal Shaman druids and the omission of any wording that takes away their normal Druid class feature.
That being said, I will research what you asked, because I know little about that archetype...it could be that they're missing the same statement which clarifies how the archetype applies to that class feature. The same as the Animal Shaman druid is missing it.
In an FAQ or Errata? Because those are the only two things that actually change rules.
If it was an offhand opinion, then it's treated as exactly that and nothing more "official".
It's an indicator of how the ability was intended to work, coupled with the fact that the way the ability works and is worded currently SCREAMS "Typo!".
I don't see the typo.
Druid gets to 4th level, gains Wild Shape. Wild shapes into Very Beastly Things.
Druid gets to 6th level, Wild Shape is altered. His Very Beastly Things that are not his totem animal type are less effective, those that are his totem animal type are more effective.
Where's the typo? I still don't comprehend the implied or intended error...