Goblin Squad Member
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Aw.. My post got deleted... I was going to add to it.
Yes, I am glad that milestone 2 has been met, and it has been successful. I'm also glad to see that the 2014 is still projected for EE.
But, to be honest, there is little else red meat on this bone. We will now hunger for another 7 days, hoping for more gameplay details.
Keep up the good work GW!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I love the insight into the design process.
Since it came up, I'm wondering if the escalations are intended to be fully cooperative (there is no disadvantage to having more help) or group competitive (there is an advantage to doing better than other groups, or to contribute a larger fraction of the final outcome, or any other reason why it might be preferable to be the only group "working" the escalation, including the total rewards being constant or scaling less than linearly with participants).
GW2 takes the first route in their quests, and the result is a difficulty curve that's all over the place depending on other people's participation.
I've been considering the political consequences of groups considering escalations their 'turf' and 'defending' them against 'poaching'. I'm not sure how that should work; it seems anti-lore but pro-"meaningful player interaction".
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Goblin Squad Member
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How big can this single server MMO that you are building become? How many players in the game world on one server?
They can connect many computers/servers together to make an integrated and scalable whole we all log into. If they need more they patch in more, and if population falls off they can reduce it as well.
'Single server', as I understand it, just means everyone who logs in is logging into the same virtual environment, even if that one virtual environment requires many physical computers in the server farm.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...But, to be honest, there is little else red meat on this bone. We will now hunger for another 7 days, hoping for more gameplay details...
It seems like red meat to know that they are going to use generated terrain and hand polish it. It is red meat to hear they are pleased with the work ongoing for the escalation system and that the AI is evolving. There is red meat that elves and dwarves are getting some love.
Small steps make the journey: We also have red meat that they are using an Agile methodology and writing new code into the Unity engine to handle MMO scale client interaction. That means they are confident in their planning, their process, and its viable expression.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...They worked closely with game design and programming to change our original conception of a monolithic single settlement object into a much more organic multi-part design...I cannot express how much this pleases me.
Same here.
I love the peek into the design process as much as I do the details of the design accomplishments. It's also great to hear the team is on track with their milestones!
The escalation cycles excite me. Kinda makes me want to play a lone ranger type character who watches a specific hostile area for signs of trouble. Then once an escalation cycle begins, he will venture out to nearby settlements to warn them of the encroaching danger. Kinda like Shalelu with Sandpoint I guess.
I'm glad that progress continues to move forward and everything is coming together nicely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been considering the political consequences of groups considering escalations their 'turf' and 'defending' them against 'poaching'. I'm not sure how that should work; it seems anti-lore but pro-"meaningful player interaction".
Another concern would be turning what GW is calling PvE content into a PvP issue. Then again, would such a development simply be a reflection of the game's nature?
The prudent choice may be having, at least for this, a notable divide between PvE and PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love the insight into the design process.
Since it came up, I'm wondering if the escalations are intended to be fully cooperative (there is no disadvantage to having more help) or group competitive (there is an advantage to doing better than other groups, or to contribute a larger fraction of the final outcome, or any other reason why it might be preferable to be the only group "working" the escalation, including the total rewards being constant or scaling less than linearly with participants).
GW2 takes the first route in their quests, and the result is a difficulty curve that's all over the place depending on other people's participation.
I've been considering the political consequences of groups considering escalations their 'turf' and 'defending' them against 'poaching'. I'm not sure how that should work; it seems anti-lore but pro-"meaningful player interaction".
We know that we'll be able to find trophies in (at least) some escalations that will provide benefits to our settlements. I don't recall reading how many trophies will be available from each escalation. If it's one trophy per escalation, or one trophy every other escalation, then I can see settlements competing to be first into the trophy room, setting up ambushes near the entrance if they reach the trophy room while members of a rival settlement are already inside, etc. If multiple trophies are available per incursion, then I can see settlements cooperating more easily, and backstabbing each other less often.
Side note - In the EVE Online incursions that inspired escalations, the generally treacherous EVE player population developed codes of ethics that were widely followed. (Don't fight the final boss as soon as it appears - give everyone time to profit from the late-stage fights. Don't gank each other while flying expensive incursion-specialized spaceships. Etc.) Of course some players broke these customs, but a surprising number followed them. PFO may see similar codes emerge around escalations. (Un-threaded gear taking the place of expensive ships, etc.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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How big can this single server MMO that you are building become? How many players in the game world on one server?
EVE Online is a single server MMO, and it routinely hosts more than 40,000 players at once. PFO almost certainly won't be able to handle that many people during Early Enrollment, or even when it opens up to the world, but given several years of steady growth, it could wind up that big.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Discussion thread for Goblinworks Blog: Milestone 2 Update
Awesome to hear about the maps/terrain coming along, I look forward to seeing some of the render.
I am a little worried about Escalations being a slog/grind, but will reserve real judgement until I am actually experiencing it in game.
=Dan
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Goblin Squad Member
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How big can this single server MMO that you are building become? How many players in the game world on one server?EVE Online is a single server MMO, and it routinely hosts more than 40,000 players at once. PFO almost certainly won't be able to handle that many people during Early Enrollment, or even when it opens up to the world, but given several years of steady growth, it could wind up that big.
This post made me realize, at least in one way, how size will affect the early game.
If there are only a small number of active players (10,000?) won't it be fun when someone wants to join an existing organization, and immediately three or four members already know them?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It will be fun in that with that small a group, with the fact it is only one server a lot of active player will get to know each other. We will be like a small town.
It will be interesting to see how the community comes together to craft, sell and fight.
I as those above me have said enjoy the inside peek at how a game is made and the step it takes to get into my computer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Side note - In the EVE Online incursions that inspired escalations, the generally treacherous EVE player population developed codes of ethics that were widely followed. (Don't fight the final boss as soon as it appears - give everyone time to profit from the late-stage fights. Don't gank each other while flying expensive incursion-specialized spaceships. Etc.) Of course some players broke these customs, but a surprising number followed them. PFO may see similar codes emerge around...
It's all about decisions. Do I knife my enemy Bob in the back while he is injured and fighting Fluffy the evil Pixie lord and get my sweet sweet revenge upon him, or will that allow Fluffy to rally his Sprite horde and wreak havoc in the immediate surrounds...where my settlement happens to be?
Fun times!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another good informative blog. I am happy everything is going well and on track. The video last week was absolutely awesome. I am really glad to see and hear that the game is turning into what was promised to us.
That being said, I would like to make a request that, since it has been a few weeks and I think this is what Bludd was hinting at, Can next week's blog step back into the game itself? What I mean is, can you discuss another aspect of the game as it either will be or is desired (from your (GW) perspective) to be in the EE/Final product. I know reputation has been a big topic here on the forums, and also learning more about how the SAD system will work is another.
While I like and enjoy hearing about how things are going, I would really like to get some major questions answered and clarification on several hot topics being discussed. Even if it is still in the "theory" stage, getting a greater understanding of how GW wants things to work and what they are shooting for will go along way IMHO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I think the Milestone blogs are essential and I am very happy to hear that GW hard work is producing timely results. It's even better, if you bear in mind plenty of kickstarters have fallen behind as many as 50% are delayed. All the more so for mmos.
Polish sounds like even more work than the previous 2 put together, so g'luck GW for the next 3 months!
I'm happy if Eacalations are bit like weeding the garden: If you leave it alone too long it starts taking over: Little seedlings begin te process and the successful ones produce more/lead to tougher variety taking root... And then the snails etc! Hopefully they'll mirror players fighting for resources at the most sophisticated level even allied ones trading with allied players.
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About the video: it seemed like settlement sites are built on areas that are already pre-cleared / terraced... Are all the sites supposed to be ruins of ancient abandoned settlements or something? That was the impression I got.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How big can this single server MMO that you are building become? How many players in the game world on one server?
Like being said above its not really one server it is one cluster. So logically it is one server but physically it is many servers working together and can me scaled as needed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How big can this single server MMO that you are building become? How many players in the game world on one server?Like being said above its not really one server it is one cluster. So logically it is one server but physically it is many servers working together and can me scaled as needed.
Here's a good article on EVE's server at massively fi: EVE Evolved: EVE Online's server model
A youtube demonstration of bigworlds app cell tech (aka load balancing): BigWorld Server Load Balancing Demonstration
And Camelot Unchained are similarly going for large numbers on screen, as per one of their kickstarter updates: A More-Epic Battle (Kickstarter Update #14) shows 1,000 clones running around atst ie screen view stuffed full of models
Maybe City State and Goblin Works might share notes if they decide they're not competing too much?!
Armies might consist of multiple hundreds at a size that's impressively MASSive and not needlessly nor prohibitively large (ie too many) I'd guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I think the Milestone blogs are essential and I am very happy to hear that GW hard work is producing timely results. It's even better, if you bear in mind plenty of kickstarters have fallen behind as many as 50% are delayed. All the more so for mmos.
Polish sounds like even more work than the previous 2 put together, so g'luck GW for the next 3 months!
I'm happy if Eacalations are bit like weeding the garden: If you leave it alone too long it starts taking over: Little seedlings begin te process and the successful ones produce more/lead to tougher variety taking root... And then the snails etc! Hopefully they'll mirror players fighting for resources at the most sophisticated level even allied ones trading with allied players.
I am not arguing that these blogs aren't essential. I definitely think they are and enjoy them, but I was just saying I would prefer to have them peppered out among the others. The blogs where gameplay and mechanics is discussed allows us (forum members) to discuss and crowdforge. There is nothing to crowdforge when they do a blog about progress and "behind the scene" things. We enjoy hearing the progress reports and like to see videos and such but what is there to discuss on the forums for the next week?
There is so much speculation going on right now with how some of the systems will work and it is causing frustrations and issues. That is why I am suggesting that next week's blog be something like what previous blogs were and discuss something we can crowdforge. I used examples such as the SAD system or how exactly reputation will effect game play. Some people seam to think reputation will be relatively meaningless and I disagree, but without the devs giving us a more detailed blog on how the system will work and affect gameplay, it is all speculation.
I hope this explains my post bit more. If not, I will try again, just post what doesn't make sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a programmer, I enjoyed some of the architectural mentions in this post (especially the mention of Grome, which has led me to Artifex Terra 3D).
As a backer, I was pleased to hear that we are on schedule and that Milestone 3 will have significant improvements.
As a future player I was saddened that we had no game play details.
2/3 ain't bad.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Milo: I don't mean I don't agree: Design blogs are simply the best for musing about all week!
But as the last 2 weeks: Media blog due to convention and Report blog due to Milestone; it's timing and different aspects of dev and different writers eg Lore (Rich Baker), Tech (Mark Kalmes), Art (Mike Hines), Finance (Ryan Dancey) etc etc.
I guess atm designers have their hands full with dev but that might slow down the design blogs it might allow Goblin Squad peeks at random stuff as more material to show becomes available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The escalation cycles excite me. Kinda makes me want to play a lone ranger type character who watches a specific hostile area for signs of trouble. Then once an escalation cycle begins, he will venture out to nearby settlements to warn them of the encroaching danger. Kinda like Shalelu with Sandpoint I guess.
I'm glad that progress continues to move forward and everything is coming together nicely.
Sorry, but the first thing that popped into my head was "Ranger Gord to the rescue!"
Red Green for the win ;)
Chief Technical Officer
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About the video: it seemed like settlement sites are built on areas that are already pre-cleared / terraced... Are all the sites supposed to be ruins of ancient abandoned settlements or something? That was the impression I got.
What you see in the video is just the result of the ground texture having a procedural tendency, and the trees not falling off in a natural way toward the clearings. It will get fixed relatively soon.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I am a little worried about Escalations being a slog/grind, but will reserve real judgement until I am actually experiencing it in game.
Asking one person to do the same task 50 times would be grindy... but when 50 people each do the task once, I don't think anyone would see it that way. I'm hoping that the escalations will involve more of the latter—that Goblinworks will find ways to incentivize the community to accomplish large tasks that no individual would want to do, or even be able to do.
About the video: it seemed like settlement sites are built on areas that are already pre-cleared / terraced... Are all the sites supposed to be ruins of ancient abandoned settlements or something? That was the impression I got.What you see in the video is just the result of the ground texture having a procedural tendency, and the trees not falling off in a natural way toward the clearings. It will get fixed relatively soon.
Hm... I was seeing that not so much as something to fix, but as a positive thing grounding the game in the area's lore of ancient Azlanti settlements (or other people, e.g. Kellids, Ulfen, Orcs, Elves, etc). Either way, I'm sure the graphical detail will improve.
I did find that some details tended to 'break' when you got really close, such as when I tried "climbing" down the cliff face in the demo and the dragon sculptures became amorphous chunky blobs up-close. I also hoped for directional jumps (rather than just up and down hopping), that could be useful for navigating some terrain (jumping over rivers, etc), and being able to leap off of buildings/cliffs (landing further away), rather than just move directly down from them seems like a cool feature.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How big can this single server MMO that you are building become? How many players in the game world on one server?Like being said above its not really one server it is one cluster. So logically it is one server but physically it is many servers working together and can me scaled as needed.Here's a good article on EVE's server at massively fi: EVE Evolved: EVE Online's server model
A youtube demonstration of bigworlds app cell tech (aka load balancing): BigWorld Server Load Balancing Demonstration
And Camelot Unchained are similarly going for large numbers on screen, as per one of their kickstarter updates: A More-Epic Battle (Kickstarter Update #14) shows 1,000 clones running around atst ie screen view stuffed full of models
Maybe City State and Goblin Works might share notes if they decide they're not competing too much?!
Armies might consist of multiple hundreds at a size that's impressively MASSive and not needlessly nor prohibitively large (ie too many) I'd guess.
Thanks for the links, what I meant to ask is how many people on the server before there are huge problems, like lag. Eve seems to have hit a limit on the numbers in one area , showing that the technology needs to change to make the theory work better in practice. 40,000 people online on one 'server' is pretty impressive. So how many people online would turn the server into a lag fest? It can't be an unlimited number online with no problems, or is there no upper limit?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's pencil in a Mark Kalmes blog for this when they've got through working on it, no doubt! They can apply more servers to an area to deal with player density in a localized area (eg busy settlements would be a norm). But there must be a limit where as you say performance would be compromised for exceptional occurrences, say for example, the battle of 5 armies. ;)
No idea what they'll do in that situation.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Notmyrealname - EVE's current architecture can support about 1,000 players in the same shared game space without meaningful problems. From 1,000 to about 3,000, the system now implements "time dilation". Since the system can't keep up with the load, the simulation in a constrained area is slowed down; the higher the load, the slower the dilation. This allows interaction to continue in a meaningful way into those 2 - 3k numbers. The problem is that outside of the area of the dilation game time is not affected, so more and more people can reach the affected area at an accelerated rate (as seen from inside the dilation). Still, it's better than a freeze and server crash.
To put that into context, most Theme Park servers have a max capacity of about 3,500 players, and a max local capacity of between 100 and 300 players. And at much over 100 players, most of the Theme Park games have so much lag and network congestion that they're unplayable.
