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I was looking at the level/tiers in the product descriptions and noticed this path shoots well past the levels normally included in an AP. Given my recent campaigning for more high-level material from Paizo I am more than a little excited. However, the existing product descriptions only include the first 5 chapters so I am wondering if someone can tell me what level/tier characters should attain during this path. Given the levels/tiers of the first five chapters I am assuming level 20/tier 10. If this is the case I am going to set money aside now for a subscription.
Everything I've heard suggests you WILL reach level 20, and you'll be getting to the 10th Mythic Tier. What's more, I've heard you'll likely reach level 20 around halfway through the final book, meaning you'll be walking around with the level 20 attributes for more than just one encounter.
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Everything I've heard suggests you WILL reach level 20, and you'll be getting to the 10th Mythic Tier. What's more, I've heard you'll likely reach level 20 around halfway through the final book, meaning you'll be walking around with the level 20 attributes for more than just one encounter.
Badass.
I just finished developing part 3 of this Adventure Path—by the end of this adventure, PCs should be well into 12th level. Things look quite good as a result for reaching 20th level before the campaign's end.
Official badass.
You guys just earned a subscription.
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As a semi-related question now that my original one has been answered, how does so much play get fit into the existing AP space? Story and encounter design being what it is I am curious how 20 levels of play can be fit into what is usually enough space for 15-16 levels of play? Has the layout been changed or is it just a result of the inclusion of mythic encounters?
As a semi-related question now that my original one has been answered, how does so much play get fit into the existing AP space? Story and encounter design being what it is I am curious how 20 levels of play can be fit into what is usually enough space for 15-16 levels of play? Has the layout been changed or is it just a result of the inclusion of mythic encounters?
From the mythic playtest - once you have mythic levels your start getting CR+4 encounters as 'normal' and take on much higher level stuff.
The exp isn't changed because you are mythic - the exp curve and level formula only use the 'non-mythic' side - so you end up with a *very* fast advancement curve. Although I will say based on the blurbs about the adventures you spend at least the first few levels as 'normal' and then things quicken up - most of the adventure paths are 2-3 levels per book - sometimes four. This one looks like it will be a hard 4 - more likely 4.5 per - considering the exp change from epic it shouldn't feel outrageously different.
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That was kind of my assumption. I read through the playtest but didn't actively play any of the material. I was more curious about the approach and kinds of things they were including. My only concern is that the advance might seem too quick. I am nearing the end of Snows of Summer, my first real experience with an AP outside of a player in a dysfunctional Skull & Shackles game, and the rate of progression feels just about right. Hopefully it is well balanced and paced, which I assume it will be, these guys seem to know what they are doing.
Creative Director
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As a semi-related question now that my original one has been answered, how does so much play get fit into the existing AP space? Story and encounter design being what it is I am curious how 20 levels of play can be fit into what is usually enough space for 15-16 levels of play? Has the layout been changed or is it just a result of the inclusion of mythic encounters?
The trick is that when you're mythic, you can take on tougher encounters. That means that when in a normal part 2 of an adventure (as an example) the PCs are 7th level, they're facing on average CR 7 encounters. In a mythic adventure, where the PCs are 7th level but Tier 3, they're facing on average CR 8 encounters. And as more tiers are gained, that average goes up. In part three, you're normally starting as a party of 8th level or so characters. In this adventure's part 3, you're starting as 9th level, tier 3 characters, so that by the end you're facing on average CR 13–14 encounters where in a normal end of a part 3 you'd be facing on average CR 10–11 or so.
So the further we get into the AP, the tougher the encounters get, which means your characters are simply gaining levels faster. Or to be more accurate, the rate at which you gain levels doesn't decrease (which is the norm for an AP) as you get further into the volumes.
So, the format of the books don't change, and the number of encounters (and the mix of type of encounters) doesn't change. It's just that since the encounters are getting progressively tougher than normal, you're gaining more XP than normal, and thus increasing level faster.
Am I right in assuming that you'll also give "level up" events for the mythic tiers?
Or will I as GM be able to choose between different events?
Are you already able (and willing) to give hints about how the gain of mythic tiers will be distributed over the AP (likely ~2 tiers per books 2-6?)
On a side note:
In a mythic adventure, where the PCs are 7th level but Tier 3, they're facing on average CR 8 encounters. And as more tiers are gained, that average goes up. In part three, you're normally starting as a party of 8th level or so characters.
Emphasis mine. Shouldn't that be 7th level and Tier 1? In contrast to level 9 and Tier 3?
Ruyan.
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So, the format of the books don't change, and the number of encounters (and the mix of type of encounters) doesn't change. It's just that since the encounters are getting progressively tougher than normal, you're gaining more XP than normal, and thus increasing level faster.
That was what I thought was going on. It seemed unlikely that you guys would change up the format of the APs with it being so successful as is. As a writer, avid GM, and amateur designer I always enjoy learning little details about the design process.
It doesn't seem like mythic scales the way I thought it did. I didn't get to actually play the playtest but I did read through it. I made the assumption that a mythic tier was roughly equivalent to a level. So characters of level 7 with 3 mythic tiers would be on par with level 10 characters, but I can see that it doesn't quite scale like that. I assume that [i[Mythic Adventures[/i] will discuss scaling in detail and I will understand it better.
Speaking of scaling and encounter design, I recall it being mentioned that this AP can be played without the inclusion of the mythic rules though, obviously the path is designed with mythic being the baseline assumption. How does that work? It seems that the higher average CRs will become steadily more overwhelming on non-mythic characters.
Sorry I keep throwing out questions but this path has really piqued my interest. I suppose I could just wait a month and have these questions answered in print but then I'd have to wait and that's no fun.
I've heard it said Mythic Tiers could be considered the equivalent of half a level. This means the end-game will be four people (or more) who are at a theoretical level 25 fighting a CR 30 critter. But then, level 20 has some added benefits that haven't been in an AP before (as does a MT of 10)... so a level 20, MT 10 character may very well be more equivalent to a level 27 because of the end bonuses.
Which makes me wonder if a party that consisted of a Generalist Wizard and a Cleric would be weakened as a result due to their LACK of anything special at level 20.
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I've heard it said Mythic Tiers could be considered the equivalent of half a level. This means the end-game will be four people (or more) who are at a theoretical level 25 fighting a CR 30 critter. But then, level 20 has some added benefits that haven't been in an AP before (as does a MT of 10)... so a level 20, MT 10 character may very well be more equivalent to a level 27 because of the end bonuses.
That makes sense with the numbers that Mr. Jacobs mentioned above. After clamoring for some high-level material, I'm really excited to run this path.
Which makes me wonder if a party that consisted of a Generalist Wizard and a Cleric would be weakened as a result due to their LACK of anything special at level 20.
Aside from the sheer badassery of a 20th level wizard or cleric, you mean? lol
When you look at the extra bonuses any Specialist class for Wizard gets compared to the Generalist wizard... it's odd Generalists get nothing for their trouble. Similarly, Clerics get no extra benefit for their effort compared to Druids, Oracles, or Inquisitors. Not even with their Domains, oddly enough. So I'd say that other classes have an additional 1/2 level benefit over Generalist Wizards and Clerics due to the level 20 loving they get. (Heck, this holds true for the Prestige classes as well - level 10 in the Prestige Class holds some benefit to compensate for their not reaching level 20 in one regular class.)
Edit: RuyanVe: If you look at the write-up for that character, you'd see that the Mythic abilities do not increase the CR to 30.
Strip all those, and that character is only CR 25 for being Mythic Tier 10 and level 20, suggesting level 20 bonuses and that 10th tier are the equivalence of an additional +1 level.
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Creative Director
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Am I right in assuming that you'll also give "level up" events for the mythic tiers?
Or will I as GM be able to choose between different events?
Are you already able (and willing) to give hints about how the gain of mythic tiers will be distributed over the AP (likely ~2 tiers per books 2-6?)On a side note:
In a mythic adventure, where the PCs are 7th level but Tier 3, they're facing on average CR 8 encounters. And as more tiers are gained, that average goes up. In part three, you're normally starting as a party of 8th level or so characters.
Emphasis mine. Shouldn't that be 7th level and Tier 1? In contrast to level 9 and Tier 3?
Ruyan.
Yeah; we do "level up" notes in the advancement track for each adventure for levels and tiers. Further, when an encounter counts as a mythic trial, we say so in the story award section for that encounter.
The distribution of mythic tiers in Wrath of the Righteous is like this:
As for my bolded quote, no. That's just an example of what a 7th level tier 3 party would be facing.
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Creative Director
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It doesn't seem like mythic scales the way I thought it did. I didn't get to actually play the playtest but I did read through it. I made the assumption that a mythic tier was roughly equivalent to a level. So characters of level 7 with 3 mythic tiers would be on par with level 10 characters, but I can see that it doesn't quite scale like that. I assume that [i[Mythic Adventures[/i] will discuss scaling in detail and I will understand it better.
Speaking of scaling and encounter design, I recall it being mentioned that this AP can be played without the inclusion of the mythic rules though, obviously the path is designed with mythic being the baseline assumption. How does that work? It seems that the higher average CRs will become steadily more overwhelming on non-mythic characters.
Sorry I keep throwing out questions but this path has really piqued my interest. I suppose I could just wait a month and have these questions answered in print but then I'd have to wait and that's no fun.
This was one of many things that we changed after seeing the result of the playtest, and isn't something we've officially talked much about yet, but yes. Turns out, a tier of power is NOT the same as a level of power–it's about half a level in power. For the purposes of engineering and designing encounters in any event. Mythic Adventures does indeed talk about it more.
Each adventure's foreword will have a section that offers advice on how to play the AP with non-mythic characters, utilizing a combination of techniques including but not limited to leveling the PCs up faster, giving them more characters, increasing their treasure, re-building the monsters to be non-mythic, using hero points, and more. This DOES mean that the GM should still be familiar with the Mythic Rules even if his players aren't using them, so that the GM knows what he's looking at in each adventure and can thus make informed decisions on how to depower encounters as needed.
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Creative Director
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Spoiler:In RoW, the one your trying to rescue is a lvl 20 witch with 10 mythic tiers equalling a CR 30 foe--though it's not part of the AP fighting her.
This was one of many things that we changed after seeing the result of the playtest, and isn't something we've officially talked much about yet, but yes. Turns out, a tier of power is NOT the same as a level of power–it's about half a level in power. For the purposes of engineering and designing encounters in any event. Mythic Adventures does indeed talk about it more.
I plan on running this AP because my players and I want to reach the pinnacles of power, but I'm also concerned about the "feel" of leveling up more quickly.
So if I get what you're saying from your first post above, the PCs will be increasingly "ahead of their level" in terms of total power, on account of their growing number of mythic tiers. Since the XP requirements for each higher level are not increasing, but the encounters are scaling up faster due to this increasing mythic power, doesn't that mean that they will be gaining new levels progressively faster, as they acquire more mythic tiers?
So, once they attain 8 mythic tiers (which is roughly equivalent to four levels), wouldn't this mean they'd normally be taking on CRs that reward quadruple the amount of XP, thus speeding up their leveling-up rate by a factor of four?
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Creative Director
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I plan on running this AP because my players and I want to reach the pinnacles of power, but I'm also concerned about the "feel" of leveling up more quickly.
So if I get what you're saying from your first post above, the PCs will be increasingly "ahead of their level" in terms of total power, on account of their growing number of mythic tiers. Since the XP requirements for each higher level are not increasing, but the encounters are scaling up faster due to this increasing mythic power, doesn't that mean that they will be gaining new levels progressively faster, as they acquire more mythic tiers?
So, once they attain 8 mythic tiers (which is roughly equivalent to four levels), wouldn't this mean they'd normally be taking on CRs that reward quadruple the amount of XP, thus speeding up their leveling-up rate by a factor of four?
Characters WILL gain levels in this AP faster than in other APs. I mean... that's pretty much the only way we can do a 1st to 20th level AP without adding 1 or 2 extra adventures. It's kinda the law of physics.
In any event, yes, they'll be gaining more XP, but since the amount of XP that they need to gain increases as well, it means that they won't ever reach a point where they'll be leveling after every encounter or even close to that.
Further, not EVERY encounter is one that's well above their average party level... if it were, then every encounter would be a life or death struggle. We're also including plenty of "normal" encounters for their level, both to help slow that XP progression a bit, but also to give the players a chance to actually FEEL mythic in their power.
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This path seems to be doing exactly what I had hoped it would do and that is allow players to reach those pinnacles of power that I feel have been sadly lacking in Pathfinder products.
I was excited to run Reign of Winter with the gonzo elements in part 5 but Wrath of the Righteous has trumped that. I am excited and my wallet will be voting for more high-level romps on this one.
Of course, my wallet inadvertently voted the other way on RoW by purchasing part one and none of the others. lol
Thanks, James, for answering my questions.
Spoiler:It's the combination of higher-than-normal stats and increased equipment (for +2 CR), Forceful Presence (for +1 CR), having an artifact as a Familiar (for +1 CR), and Long Lived without penalties for aging (for one last +1 CR), in addition to Mythic abilities.
and
Spoiler:That foe has a LOT more going on than just being a witch 20 with 10 tiers. She essentually has enough extra unique powers and abilities and bonuses and perks that she gains a boost to her CR that leads her up to CR 30.
And thanks, James and Tangent101, for correcting my statement. Just got the chance to have a look at my PDF and you're right, of course.
Still: so excited!
Ruyan.
Characters WILL gain levels in this AP faster than in other APs. I mean... that's pretty much the only way we can do a 1st to 20th level AP without adding 1 or 2 extra adventures. It's kinda the law of physics.
In any event, yes, they'll be gaining more XP, but since the amount of XP that they need to gain increases as well, it means that they won't ever reach a point where they'll be leveling after every encounter or even close to that.
Further, not EVERY encounter is one that's well above their average party level... if it were, then every encounter would be a life or death struggle. We're also including plenty of "normal" encounters for their level, both to help slow that XP progression a bit, but also to give the players a chance to actually FEEL mythic in their power.
I getcha. And I reread my post and realized my calculations were off: a "level/tier-appropriate encounter" would reward double the usual amount of XP, not quadruple -- which actually isn't too bad. And I'm glad to see you plan to mix in some lower-powered encounters as well to slow things down a bit. It should be interesting to see a wider oscillation of CRs if that is the case.
I'm also considering stretching out the XP level progression chart and adding extra material if I feel like the AP needs it once I see it. My main concern I guess is that leveling-up likely will accelerate during the AP.
That isn't necessarily a bad thing. I know one of my players who plays over Skype feels the Reign of Winter campaign is leveling up too slowly - the other game, Runelords, feels like it levels up quicker, though part of that may be that it is also the lower levels (they're level 7 in Runelords now, while level 4 in RoW).
Well this thread certainly answers my question about how mythic tiers will accumulate; my old theory was that the leveling would be normal and that you'd also gain 1 mythic tier per adventure, ending up at 18/6.
No, the AP will (if everything works out) end at level 20 and 10 mythic tiers. It stands to reason, thusly, that the level gain will be a bit asymetrical in both cases.
The distribution of mythic tiers in Wrath of the Righteous is like this: ** spoiler omitted **
Would you be willing (if able) to pinpoint the levels during which mythic tiers will be gained? I'm working on some hypothetical builds, and it'd be nice to know where to slot the tiers in.
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The distribution of mythic tiers in Wrath of the Righteous is like this: ** spoiler omitted **Would you be willing (if able) to pinpoint the levels during which mythic tiers will be gained? I'm working on some hypothetical builds, and it'd be nice to know where to slot the tiers in.
As it's written, it looks like the PCs get their first mythic tier the same time they reach 6th level. The next five volumes run like this:
Volume 2: Levels 6-9, Tiers 1-2
Volume 3: Levels 9-12, Tiers 3-4
Volume 4: Levels 13-15, Tiers 5-6
Volume 5: Levels 16-18, Tiers 7-8
Volume 6: Levels 18-20, Tiers 9-10
Everything I've heard suggests you WILL reach level 20, and you'll be getting to the 10th Mythic Tier. What's more, I've heard you'll likely reach level 20 around halfway through the final book, meaning you'll be walking around with the level 20 attributes for more than just one encounter.Badass.
I just finished developing part 3 of this Adventure Path—by the end of this adventure, PCs should be well into 12th level. Things look quite good as a result for reaching 20th level before the campaign's end.Official badass.
You guys just earned a subscription.
As awesome as this it is a little sad this is not the case in every AP.
Really looking forward to this AP, but every AP should go to level 20.
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Creative Director
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The distribution of mythic tiers in Wrath of the Righteous is like this: ** spoiler omitted **Would you be willing (if able) to pinpoint the levels during which mythic tiers will be gained? I'm working on some hypothetical builds, and it'd be nice to know where to slot the tiers in.
Nope. You'll need to ask your GM for that info, and furthermore, the points at which any one character will gain a tier will vary anyway, according to what order you complete things.
Be that as it may... it's not physically possible for every AP to go to level 20.You guys just earned a subscription.As awesome as this it is a little sad this is not the case in every AP.
Really looking forward to this AP, but every AP should go to level 20.
Why not add an extra issue per AP?
I wonder how the "continue the campaign" chapter in the last volume is going to be for this AP.
Why not add an extra issue per AP?Be that as it may... it's not physically possible for every AP to go to level 20.You guys just earned a subscription.As awesome as this it is a little sad this is not the case in every AP.
Really looking forward to this AP, but every AP should go to level 20.
12 / 2 = 6 volumes per AP to get 2 APs per year.
Be that as it may... it's not physically possible for every AP to go to level 20.You guys just earned a subscription.As awesome as this it is a little sad this is not the case in every AP.
Really looking forward to this AP, but every AP should go to level 20.
I understand the reasons, but I suppose one way of doing it anyway is to throw in a few hundred thousand story xp here and there :)
Bigger story awards seem to be a solution, but even those would not get you to level 20 at the normal pacing we have. I'd rather see the fast XP track used more, that help.
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Creative Director
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Why not add an extra issue per AP?Be that as it may... it's not physically possible for every AP to go to level 20.You guys just earned a subscription.As awesome as this it is a little sad this is not the case in every AP.
Really looking forward to this AP, but every AP should go to level 20.
Becasue we can only do 1 per month, and we have to launch one at Gen Con, and for several other lesser reasons.
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Creative Director
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I understand the reasons, but I suppose one way of doing it anyway is to throw in a few hundred thousand story xp here and there :)Be that as it may... it's not physically possible for every AP to go to level 20.You guys just earned a subscription.As awesome as this it is a little sad this is not the case in every AP.
Really looking forward to this AP, but every AP should go to level 20.
Perhaps... but every time I try something even slightly close to that trick, the internet gets out its pitchforks and torches and marches on my castle.
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Creative Director
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Bigger story awards seem to be a solution, but even those would not get you to level 20 at the normal pacing we have. I'd rather see the fast XP track used more, that help.
The fast track wouldn't solve it. It'd just have the end level at one higher, so 18th instead of 17th for example.
Ah, dammit. Oh, well. To be honest, the last two or three levels are really difficult to GM, anyway. Not much which can challenge a party anymore when they get access to level nine spells.
to be honest i'm fine with how they do APs, there is a reason they put the "Continuing the story" article at the end of every AP, if your players are invested in their characters whats so hard with creating a few adventures yourself? Paizo already did the heavy lifting by getting you 15-18th level and giving you multiple ideas for onward. all it takes is throwing together some maps and monsters and voila! (i understand thats a bit simplistic:) there is also many, many high level adventures out there that are easy enough to tweak, not to mention the wealth of material from other older versions of the game (it is the oldest RPG in the world after all:) sitting on most of your shelves collecting dust just begging for an update:) humanity is given an imagination for a reason people, use it or lose it! (again an over simplification, but hey i just tried Hard Root Beer for the first time tonight:) so cut me a lil slack;)
btw Mr Jacobs thanks, this stuff is awesome:)
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Ah, dammit. Oh, well. To be honest, the last two or three levels are really difficult to GM, anyway. Not much which can challenge a party anymore when they get access to level nine spells.
My husband GM's our 18th-level-trio of mages, and routinely runs us through gauntlets. Getting us to expend resources (diamond dust is our crack), burning us through our high level spells, and putting us on unfavorable ground. Some days, we're on our game, and we play smart. Other times...not so much. :)