players with a lot of system mastery sometimes gravitate towards casters and players with little or no system mastery sometimes are more comfortable playing a fighter or rogue.
Which is why our group encourages the exact opposite behavior. All of our noobs are pointed towards druids and clerics, with the thought that "can't f#@$ up the build, with minimum advice"
We consider fighter to be a class for experienced players only.
Mind you he did not realize how bad the Monk class was until he was 13 levels in. So in fairness him watching the Caster sling around 7th Level Spells was a contributing factor. Also while his AC was the best amongst the party at the start of the campaign and he was often difficult for enemies to hit by this point most enemies were capable of hitting him with reasonable reliably (Dex/Wis focused). On the flip side, even with +4 Magic Fang he was having trouble hitting the enemies reliably and since he was using Magic Fang, Greater for +hit/dmg, DR made those attacks that did land underwhelming. Also while he would often serve as the party's walking "trap detector" relying on his high saves to keep him safe, when high level spells/abilities got tossed around the 1's he rolled subjected him to much nastier effects then they had at lower levels. Intelligent high leveled enemies would frequently ignore him after his attacks missed/did low damage. The only thing he really had over the other players at this point was that his saves were higher than theirs, which didn't give him much to enjoy.
Still the end of the campaign was happy(?) for him as with help from the party Sorcerer, they succeeded in betraying the party and retrieving a divine artifact for their new employer, despite the BBEG and the rest of the party (temporarily) joining forces to prevent their escape.
So my feelings were right monks are a martial/skillmonkey hybrid.
monks can survive anything that requires a reflex save, doesn't mean they are useful.
they can take a feat tax to negate lone bosses that make single attacks. such as T-Rexes or specific gunslinger/crossbowman builds.
doesn't mean they are a decent class.
Monks dump dex for strength just like rogues. :P
monks can survive anything that requires a reflex save, doesn't mean they are useful.
they can take a feat tax to negate lone bosses that make single attacks. such as T-Rexes or specific gunslinger/crossbowman builds.
doesn't mean they are a decent class.
They're more effective than Rogues, though... Not that such a thing is something to brag about...
There's DR, but yeah martial "I hit it with my sword" is the most effective and efficient damage dealing tactic in the game.
Yes. Well, sort of, it's slightly below "I full round every single round with 2 extra attacks with my bow" and "I pounce and do six gazillion natural attacks at max bonus", but it's close there.
But the problem is that it is better done by other classes. Inquisitors, alchemists, druids, summoners, etc all of them can hit with their swords (or better yet, with their bows or claws) at the same level (or higher) than martials, and they have a lot of free stuff for utility and party resources than martials don't
What happened with the 12 level example fighter?
players with a lot of system mastery sometimes gravitate towards casters and players with little or no system mastery sometimes are more comfortable playing a fighter or rogue.Which is why our group encourages the exact opposite behavior. All of our noobs are pointed towards druids and clerics, with the thought that "can't f&!@ up the build, with minimum advice"
We consider fighter to be a class for experienced players only.
And this is the real reason why you feel there is not martial/caster disparity.
What happened with the 12 level example fighter?
With power attack. +20/15 to hit. Averaging 32 damage without crits.
With crits .2*64+.75*32+.05*0 = 36.8
All day unlimited use.
And this is the real reason why you feel there is not martial/caster disparity.players with a lot of system mastery sometimes gravitate towards casters and players with little or no system mastery sometimes are more comfortable playing a fighter or rogue.Which is why our group encourages the exact opposite behavior. All of our noobs are pointed towards druids and clerics, with the thought that "can't f&!@ up the build, with minimum advice"
We consider fighter to be a class for experienced players only.
Because bad players don't play martials? Ok
So my feelings were right monks are a martial/skillmonkey hybrid.
They are half-arsed martials and half arsed skill monkeys. I guess it's roughly the same :p
An alchemist is a real martial-caster-skillmonkey hybrid. Dervish bards are too
You know, it doesn't take much GM fiat to give martial characters competitive flexibility. For example, there are rules for designing intelligent magic items that can cast spells for you without you having to take an action. These items are seriously underpriced. If you allow a monk, rogue or fighter to design their own intelligent item and buy it at the official price (or find it in a treasure hoard), but don't allow the wizard to do the same, it suddenly becomes a lot fairer.
Because bad players don't play martials? OkAnd this is the real reason why you feel there is not martial/caster disparity.players with a lot of system mastery sometimes gravitate towards casters and players with little or no system mastery sometimes are more comfortable playing a fighter or rogue.Which is why our group encourages the exact opposite behavior. All of our noobs are pointed towards druids and clerics, with the thought that "can't f&!@ up the build, with minimum advice"
We consider fighter to be a class for experienced players only.
because bad players play casters.
because bad players play casters.Because bad players don't play martials? OkAnd this is the real reason why you feel there is not martial/caster disparity.players with a lot of system mastery sometimes gravitate towards casters and players with little or no system mastery sometimes are more comfortable playing a fighter or rogue.Which is why our group encourages the exact opposite behavior. All of our noobs are pointed towards druids and clerics, with the thought that "can't f&!@ up the build, with minimum advice"
We consider fighter to be a class for experienced players only.
Hahahaha. No no no. Not all of the casters. Our arcane casters are played by our more system breaky group members.
You know, it doesn't take much GM fiat to give martial characters competitive flexibility. For example, there are rules for designing intelligent magic items that can cast spells for you without you having to take an action. These items are seriously underpriced. If you allow a monk, rogue or fighter to design their own intelligent item and buy it at the official price (or find it in a treasure hoard), but don't allow the wizard to do the same, it suddenly becomes a lot fairer.
An easier fix is to keep your casters playing conservatively.
It cost less spells to work with a martial than to try and show him up.
What happened with the 12 level example fighter?With power attack. +20/15 to hit. Averaging 32 damage without crits.
With crits .2*64+.75*32+.05*0 = 36.8
All day unlimited use.
but what magic gear are we assuming? +6 belt and +3 sword? Anything else?
An easier fix is to keep your casters playing conservatively.
It cost less spells to work with a martial than to try and show him up.
Agreed: an adventuring group where martials lead the way and casters give them whatever support seems necessary works pretty well.
But this isn't really something the GM can control.
Druid:
Starting str: 18. Level pumps +2. Belt +6. +6 size wildshape.
Holy AMOF, greater magic fang.
In allosaurius form:
9 BAB +11 str +3 GMF,-3 power att. -2 size. Attacks when pouncing (includes charge bonus) +20/+20/+20/+20/+20.
Damage 4d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20
+2D6 vs evil creatures with strong jaw. Or just 3d6/1d8/1d8/1d8/1d8 without strong jaw. One enemy per day he can add smite evil (with planar wildshape) and add +12 to damage to every attack.
In Tyranosaurius form could do 24d6+34+2d6 +grab (as gargantuan creature) with vital strike and strong jaw.
Can swap to other dinos and gain trip, grab, trample when needed.
The companion could be a pouncing dino, for extra dmg, or an ankylosaurius, for stun and crazy AC.
And as a free bonus, he can wildshape into earth or air elementals to scout, or tiny animals to infiltrate, can cast buffs in party members, have a lot of utility stuff, some skills, etc.
So your 20/15 power attack leaves me unimpressed.
A +6 belt is 36k, your wealth at level 10 is only 62k. You wont be buying it for a while if you want any other gear.
TRex also exceeds your size limitation. On smite I am pretty sure you get it once per Wild Shape rather than per day.
36k is the cost for martials. Casters craft it at hal price. And we are talking about level 12
My bad with trex, thought it was huge by default. Swap it for behemoth hippo for same effect.
And yes, planar shape is once per wildshape you burn into it.
but what magic gear are we assuming? +6 belt and +3 sword? Anything else?What happened with the 12 level example fighter?With power attack. +20/15 to hit. Averaging 32 damage without crits.
With crits .2*64+.75*32+.05*0 = 36.8
All day unlimited use.
+2 sword. +4 belt.
Druid:
Starting str: 18. Level pumps +2. Belt +6. +6 size wildshape.
Holy AMOF, greater magic fang.In allosaurius form:
9 BAB +11 str +3 GMF,-3 power att. -2 size. Attacks when pouncing (includes charge bonus) +20/+20/+20/+20/+20.
Damage 4d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20
+2D6 vs evil creatures with strong jaw. Or just 3d6/1d8/1d8/1d8/1d8 without strong jaw. One enemy per day he can add smite evil (with planar wildshape) and add +12 to damage to every attack.In Tyranosaurius form could do 24d6+34+2d6 +grab (as gargantuan creature) with vital strike and strong jaw.
Can swap to other dinos and gain trip, grab, trample when needed.
The companion could be a pouncing dino, for extra dmg, or an ankylosaurius, for stun and crazy AC.
And as a free bonus, he can wildshape into earth or air elementals to scout, or tiny animals to infiltrate, can cast buffs in party members, have a lot of utility stuff, some skills, etc.
So your 20/15 power attack leaves me unimpressed.
You seem to be rolling in expensive gear while being too large to fit into most encounters.
Ignoring the size problem, but adjusting for a +4 belt. I see +17 without charging. And only +18 to damage. I'm ignoring your once per day smite.
So when you can charge your DPR is ahead. When you can't it is behind.
Melee bite +14 (2d6+8/19–20 plus grab), 2 claws +14 (1d8+8)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 talons +14, 1d8+8)
Also wondering why your base damage does not look like this.
Even with a +4 belt, you are still spending WAY more on gear for offense than my fighter. Those +3 amulets (+1, +2 for holy) are pricey
+2 sword. +4 belt.but what magic gear are we assuming? +6 belt and +3 sword? Anything else?What happened with the 12 level example fighter?With power attack. +20/15 to hit. Averaging 32 damage without crits.
With crits .2*64+.75*32+.05*0 = 36.8
All day unlimited use.
Oh this is a level 10 fighter not 12 sorry.
So the level 12 fighter +4 belt, +3 sword no special bonuses.
Str = 18 +3lvl + 4mag = 25 (+7 bonus)
12 BAB + 2class + 2feats +3mag + 7str - 4 power attack = 22 to hit
10str + 2class + 2feat + 3magic + 12power attack + 7greatsword damage = 36
.2*72+.75*36+.05*0 = 41.4 average damage per swing
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With a +6 belt instead
+23 to hit
38 damage
.2*76 + .75*38 + .05*0 = 43.7 average damage per swing
I am unimpressed with your flurry of love taps.
I had one of those fun monk experiences where I flurried missing all five attacks. While the smiting paladin hit with his two attacks easily doing as much damage as I do with all five of my attacks.
I did do a good job taking out the weak mooks. Monks are pretty good at taking out weak mooks. Not as good as an arcane blaster or two-hander cleaver, but not too bad.
The Bladebound Magus has a +5 blade at level 9 for 90% of the combats were in. He got this for free. He can cast his spells through his sword, while my monk has to spend a ton of money to buy a +5 weapon and then spend extra to get an enchantment that lets me use my ki strike through the weapon. Nice thing is I won't need it when I have a +5 weapon. If I want to use my fists as a +5 weapon, I have to spend twice as much as a single weapon fighter. I only crit on a 20. At least a two-weapon fighter can get high crit weapons to make their two-weapons sing.
I did a lot of damage with a dual Falcata wielding fighter.
Monk is a sad, sad little boy compared to the Magus and Inquisitor. The rogue is sort of the reverse of the monk. All offense, very little defense. He is also a sad, sad little boy compared to the Magus.
Rogue and Monk should be rebalanced with the Magus and Inquisitor in mind.
Monk is a poor rogue-fighter mix
Magus is a fighter-wizard mix
Idk much about Inquisitors, they sound like a paladin rogue-mix.
Druid:
Starting str: 18. Level pumps +2. Belt +6. +6 size wildshape.
Holy AMOF, greater magic fang.In allosaurius form:
9 BAB +11 str +3 GMF,-3 power att. -2 size. Attacks when pouncing (includes charge bonus) +20/+20/+20/+20/+20.
Damage 4d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20
+2D6 vs evil creatures with strong jaw. Or just 3d6/1d8/1d8/1d8/1d8 without strong jaw. One enemy per day he can add smite evil (with planar wildshape) and add +12 to damage to every attack.In Tyranosaurius form could do 24d6+34+2d6 +grab (as gargantuan creature) with vital strike and strong jaw.
Can swap to other dinos and gain trip, grab, trample when needed.
The companion could be a pouncing dino, for extra dmg, or an ankylosaurius, for stun and crazy AC.
And as a free bonus, he can wildshape into earth or air elementals to scout, or tiny animals to infiltrate, can cast buffs in party members, have a lot of utility stuff, some skills, etc.
So your 20/15 power attack leaves me unimpressed.
You seem to be rolling in expensive gear while being too large to fit into most encounters.
Ignoring the size problem, but adjusting for a +4 belt. I see +17 without charging. And only +18 to damage. I'm ignoring your once per day smite.
So when you can charge your DPR is ahead. When you can't it is behind.
Melee bite +14 (2d6+8/19–20 plus grab), 2 claws +14 (1d8+8)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 talons +14, 1d8+8)Also wondering why your base damage does not look like this.
Even with a +4 belt, you are still spending WAY more on gear for offense than my fighter. Those +3 amulets (+1, +2 for holy) are pricey
I think I'm starting to see why you don't understand that casters are better... you have no idea how Amulet of Mighty Fists works do you? +3? Try +2.
"An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability."
Now a +2 Amulet has price of 16,000gp but since the Druid is a caster and should have Craft Wondrous, he's getting this for the cost of 8,000gp.
Meanwhile your +3 Sword is setting you back 18,000gp.
As a caster with Craft Wondrous he'll also get his +6 Belt for half cost compared to you 18,000gp to your 36,000gp. So he has spent a total of 26,000gp on offense, while you have spent a whopping 54,000gp (close to half your wealth).
Now if I were going to continue itemizing the Druid, I'd craft myself a Bead of Karma to give me higher buff bonuses and eke out another +1 to Magic Fang Greater for 10,000gp. Next, I'd pick up a +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate for 19,300gp (because lolCraftArms&Armor). That'll add +10 to the druid's AC np. Even with those purchases, the Druid still has only spent 44,000gp. Toss on one metamagic rod, extend lesser for 3,000gp (so your Magic Fang, Greater last all day) and your Barkskin to last 240 minutes (or 320 minutes with Bead) for another +5 AC.
That'll get him another +1 to hit and damage, +15 AC and he'll still clock in at only 47,000gp giving him plenty of room to purchase several other wonderful items. (Like 8,000gp to get him some +6 Wis, or an upgrade to his AoMF to +3 (another 1d6 damage probably), a Handy Haversack, some ioun stones (orange prism ioun stone or pale green prism is only 15k for him, Dusty Rose for 2,500/250gp for +1 insight ac/+1 initiative), and a Druid's vestment (cause you can just use it when you need the extra wildshape so why not?)
Having purchased all of that we're still under 12th level WBL clocking in at 103425gp, 4,575gp under wbl. (If you want saves the AoMF can be dropped and a +5 cloak of resistance would only be 2,500gp more.
Also, his "love taps" while less damaging then yours account for pounce (which you just plain don't have without multiclassing) and his average damage in behemoth hippo form with just one hit is 114 damage + grab. So ya.. at 12th level I'd say this goes handily to the druid, even before taking into account the Animal Companion, and you know... full casting.
Well you need buff spells to get close to a fighter. Which is my whole point.
My fighter has these additional feats on top of his already superior martial prowess:
Toughness
Combat Reflexes
Step Up
Stand Still
Blind Fight
Pin Down
He also has better perception than your oracle
The spells argument is fine, but I feel that fighter martial prowess makes it difficult for non-martial to adequately fill that role.
Druid:
Starting str: 18. Level pumps +2. Belt +6. +6 size wildshape.
Holy AMOF, greater magic fang.In allosaurius form:
9 BAB +11 str +3 GMF,-3 power att. -2 size. Attacks when pouncing (includes charge bonus) +20/+20/+20/+20/+20.
Damage 4d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20/2d6+20
+2D6 vs evil creatures with strong jaw. Or just 3d6/1d8/1d8/1d8/1d8 without strong jaw. One enemy per day he can add smite evil (with planar wildshape) and add +12 to damage to every attack.In Tyranosaurius form could do 24d6+34+2d6 +grab (as gargantuan creature) with vital strike and strong jaw.
Can swap to other dinos and gain trip, grab, trample when needed.
The companion could be a pouncing dino, for extra dmg, or an ankylosaurius, for stun and crazy AC.
And as a free bonus, he can wildshape into earth or air elementals to scout, or tiny animals to infiltrate, can cast buffs in party members, have a lot of utility stuff, some skills, etc.
So your 20/15 power attack leaves me unimpressed.
You seem to be rolling in expensive gear while being too large to fit into most encounters.
Ignoring the size problem, but adjusting for a +4 belt. I see +17 without charging. And only +18 to damage. I'm ignoring your once per day smite.
So when you can charge your DPR is ahead. When you can't it is behind.
Melee bite +14 (2d6+8/19–20 plus grab), 2 claws +14 (1d8+8)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 talons +14, 1d8+8)Also wondering why your base damage does not look like this.
Even with a +4 belt, you are still spending WAY more on gear for offense than my fighter. Those +3 amulets (+1, +2 for holy) are pricey
I think I'm starting to see why you don't understand that casters are better... you have no idea how Amulet of Mighty Fists works do you? +3? Try +2.
"An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability."
Now a +2 Amulet has price of 16,000gp...
Now you are using Craft wondrous item as the reason your druid is better? Please pff
Even the devs say they see something broken with the crafting system. You don't get to double you WBL for comparisons.
The hipo:
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +17 (4d8+13/19–20 plus grab)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks capsize, trample (2d6+13, DC 26)
Does not impress me.
Considering the FAQ explicitly says you do get to treat crafted magic items for their cost not their price... I'd say the Devs are with me on this one. Also why wouldn't I use Craft Wondrous? Its something casters do and something they do well. That'd be like me asking you not to use your bonus feats. Also those buffs aren't being cast in combat, Greater Magic Fang is lasting 32 hours with bead of karma, Barkskin last for an incredible duration 240-320 minutes is 4 to over 5 hours. I'd much rather have the Druid or the Oracle in a fight. Because even after taking their fighting ability into account their full casting is much better, than Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Step Up, Stand Still, Blind Fight, and Pin Down.
You are missing the impact of strongjaw and vital strike.
I'll give you vital strike, but strong jaw is a 4th lvl minute/level buff. 10min/lvl and hour/lvl buffs sure.
This isn't really important, but the spell says you must lay a hand on the animal part. Hippos don't have hands.
Considering the FAQ explicitly says you do get to treat crafted magic items for their cost not their price... I'd say the Devs are with me on this one. Also why wouldn't I use Craft Wondrous? Its something casters do and something they do well. That'd be like me asking you not to use your bonus feats. Also those buffs aren't being cast in combat, Greater Magic Fang is lasting 32 hours with bead of karma, Barkskin last for an incredible duration 240-320 minutes is 4 to over 5 hours. I'd much rather have the Druid or the Oracle in a fight. Because even after taking their fighting ability into account their full casting is much better, than Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Step Up, Stand Still, Blind Fight, and Pin Down.
We can talk more after you stop doubling your WBL.
Quote:
PC Wealth By Level (page 399): If a PC has an item crafting feat, does a crafted item count as its Price or its Cost?
It counts as the item's Cost, not the Price. This comes into play in two ways.
If you're equipping a higher-level PC, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise the character isn't getting any benefit for having the feat. Of course, the GM is free to set limits in equipping the character, such as "no more than 40% of your wealth can be used for armor" (instead of the "balanced approach" described on page 400 where the PC should spend no more than 25% on armor).
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
—Sean K Reynolds, 01/14/12
Looks like I'm using my normal WBL not my fault I get to use cost, instead of price. Seems like a martial problem. Has it occurred to you that maybe the reason you don't see why casters are so much better is because you don't know things like this?
Sigh*
Time and money
Caft wondrous Items gets you more of one at the cost of another.
If your group has months and years between levels so that you can craft items that is rare.
If you are constantly switching out characters to make use of the crafting feat, this has its own problems.
"Has it occurred to you that maybe the reason you think casters are so much better than martials is because you are ignoring actual game-play constraints."
Ultimate campaign says you should let a PC with crafting feats exceed normal WBL by about 30% maybe more for multiple crafting feats. Any class can grab a spell like ability and craft too so extra wealth shouldn't come into it if we are doing fair comparisons.
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There is no martial-caster flip. The casters are always better.
I think the flip argument is misleading. The flip might never occur in actual gameplay. You could also start off with casters being better early on and falling behind non casters later. I think looking at potential ability any casting class is better than one without casting. From personal experience I don't think a flip really occurs, in game usefulness tends to be swingy and player skill is the biggest determinant. I haven't played a game above level 14 however so maybe sometime after 14?
Oh no... a Max of of 2,000gp cost per day, those items would take a whopping... 52 days or about 2 months. Do your campaigns get to 10th level in 2 months? I actually have played a Craft Wondrous Item user in actual play and I found the time restrictions to be a non-concern. A two day stop in a town got me my Amulet of Mighty Fists. The 2 hours worth of work while adventuring while somewhat problematic early on (still not terribly hard to get to 4,000gp +2 stat items by the time your 5th) became less of an issue once Teleport came online drastically reducing travel times. I recommend you actually play a crafter in a campaign once before claiming there's some huge trade-off as it is fairly negligible in practice.
While you correct redliska, a martial could be a race with a SLA and qualify that way, but that locks them into a certain race, while casters can always have access. (Also not my fault Marthkus didn't pick Craft Wondrous, while Gustavo did.)
14th!? Compare Marthkus' Fighter with Gustavo's Druid or andreww's Oracle. Now remember that those classes have full casting in addition to their formidable melee ability. At the absolute least we can say from this thread the flip occurs by 12th.
Oh no... a Max of of 2,000gp cost per day, those items would take a whopping... 52 days or about 2 months. Do your campaigns get to 10th level in 2 months? I actually have played a Craft Wondrous Item user in actual play and I found the time restrictions to be a non-concern. A two day stop in a town got me my Amulet of Mighty Fists. The 2 hours worth of work while adventuring while somewhat problematic early on (still not terribly hard to get to 4,000gp +2 stat items by the time your 5th) became less of an issue once Teleport came online drastically reducing travel times. I recommend you actually play a crafter in a campaign once before claiming there's some huge trade-off as it is fairly negligible in practice.
Wow.
This conversation is ridiculous. I no longer value you opinion. Please refrain from addressing me in the future. I will not respond.
Well do tell us all about your experience as a Crafter in an actual campaign. Inquiring minds want to know.
We both know that's not going to happen.
I DM'd a campaign with a 3.5 artificer without errata to certain feats. This allowed the artificer to make items at severely reduced prices and times.
You know what he did with 75% reduced gold cost with 100% reduced time cost item making?
He made items for the whole party. I made the campaign harder. No one had more wealth than anyone else though. That would have been stupid.
Oh the one hand, Anzyr might be understating how long a wizard spends on crafting items. In my experience, the Craft feats can also be used to benefit other party members. It's like half price for everybody! So you can have significantly more than 2 months downtime to use these feats. And this also ignores how long putting spells in a spellbook takes.
On the other hand, I think it's kind of strange to think that a 12th level character wouldn't have had SUBSTANTIALLY more than 2 months downtime during their adventuring career. In my experience, campaigns have a lot of downtime because PCs have lives that aren't just adventuring. After all, it takes an elf about 120 years to go from a level 0 wizard to a level 1 wizard. And then it takes... 3 months to gain another 11 levels in wizard? Not likely. There might be a lot of campaign variation in how crafting items are used, but in my experience there's a lot of downtime specifically for that reason.
And Markthus, if there isn't, what do you do if the players ask the DM "Hey, can we have downtime to craft stuff soon"? You can go "No, the plot demands you go forward!", but then they can just say "Ok, the plot isn't going anywhere without us, and we're taking a few weeks to craft items."
And Markthus, if there isn't, what do you do if the players ask the DM "Hey, can we have downtime to craft stuff soon"? You can go "No, the plot demands you go forward!", but then they can just say "Ok, the plot isn't going anywhere without us, and we're taking a few weeks to craft items."
My open world campaign, I didn't care.
My more serious 1-36 3.5 campaign had set amounts of downtime that PCs could do nothing to lengthen or shorten.
My DMing skills are not the best and running APs bore me to tears. When I play in groups downtime is always limited by pressing matters that need to be attended too. People to rescue from captors. BBEG trying to end the world. Business contracts that are time sensitive. The list goes on and on.
I actually cannot recall ever having enough downtime for serious crafting. By the time our party gets enough wealth to craft, we are too wrapped up in the plot to just halt adventuring for a few months.