So DR bypassed by the most prevalent enemy you'll face not so great.
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The problem is that you are trying to match those Celestial traits when you could be getting even more attacks for even more damage. Those traits are simply not worth investing the evolution points. (Seriously, when you have Evolution Surge why in the world would you buy any of the Celestial features?)
Is it a good feat? Absolutely. Is it going to make the Animal Companion as combat viable as an Eidolon. Nope.
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Either Eidolons are just not desired to be played by the designers or that was a massive typo by the game designers regarding that feat.
Those aren't the only two options. They probably found that the eidolon with that feat was too powerful, and the last thing the Summoner needs is a more powerful Eidolon. Alternatively, the fact that the Eidolon would suddenly become a magical beast would break all sorts of things as the Eidolon is based on being an Outsider (and many of their abilities build off of this fact, like summoning/calling them).
There's also a fair amount of precedence for 'every companion but Eidolon'. For example, the Boon Companion feat.
I highly doubt it's a mistake.
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but you cant argue my logic that this make animal companions FAR superior to Eidolons. Its note even close anymore. Maybe a 3 point evolution that actually adds a template or something. This is the kind of disparity that kills a class for people. Not sure i will bother playing my summoner in PFS anymore. The first animal companion that comes along will rock its world.
Great. That means I get to stop hearing everyone else complaining about how overpowered Eidolon's are.
Also the full Celestial Appearance is 7 Evolution Points, not 6.
Maybe it's just me but I very rarely see an aasimar that has levels in a class that grants an animal companion. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen an aasimar druid, cavalier, etc. Paladins usually choose the divine weapon option. Their non-neutral nature would make a druid aasimar pretty rare IMO. I doubt you will see that feat used much at all.
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I'll place my money on the Eidolon every day if it's going up against the vast majority of animal companion with this feat.
It's a very strong feat, but it doesn't make the Eidolon useless. Far from it.
Maybe it's just me but I very rarely see an aasimar that has levels in a class that grants an animal companion. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen an aasimar druid, cavalier, etc. Paladins usually choose the divine weapon option. Their non-neutral nature would make a druid aasimar pretty rare IMO. I doubt you will see that feat used much at all.
Not quite true, I'm contemplating building an Aasimar Oracle of Nature
Take the Bounded Mount Revelation, then use the favored class bonus to get +1/2 to your level to that revelation and take Celestial Servant. So at 8th level you have a 12th level animal companion with the celestial template and a magical beast; that's 10 HD, 10 BAB (Magical Beast means HD = BAB) and the celestial template is in full force at 10 HD.
...but even given all that, to call the Eidolon underpowered is... Beyond the pale? xD Eidolons are really, really strong.
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Well I for one have never been disappointed with the damage output of the eidolon. The biggest draw of Celestial Servant is that it makes your creature more durable, and as a summoner, if you your Eidolon is not as durable as the Animal Companion, big deal! From the sound of it, your party will probably tear to shreds whatever you're up against before your Eidolon falls in battle. Even if it ever does fall in battle, that does let you use your amazing Summon Monster class ability. Standard action summoning is pretty nice!
And finally, if you're still contributing to combat, it's all good. Pathfinder/D&D isn't PvP.
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Which would be great, except that at later levels, your quick fix actually winds up being worth more than most 4pt. Evolutions. The Celestial Template grows notably more powerful as the HD of the creature increases.
but you cant argue my logic that this make animal companions FAR superior to Eidolons. Its note even close anymore. Maybe a 3 point evolution that actually adds a template or something. This is the kind of disparity that kills a class for people. Not sure i will bother playing my summoner in PFS anymore. The first animal companion that comes along will rock its world.
I disagree about that far superior statement. You might get "superior" depending on how a GM runs a game but not far superior, and not every druid you face in PFS will have this feat, if you have to face a druid..
If you post a 20 level animal companion, and a 20 level Eidolon the Eidolon can fight, most likely better than the AC, and still do other things. I would make the same argument at level 10 since most games dont reach 20. Being an intelligent(sentient on the same level as humanoids) creature it can reasonably do things without waiting for instructions also.
Maybe it's just me but I very rarely see an aasimar that has levels in a class that grants an animal companion. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen an aasimar druid, cavalier, etc. Paladins usually choose the divine weapon option. Their non-neutral nature would make a druid aasimar pretty rare IMO. I doubt you will see that feat used much at all.actually i saw a aasimarr druid this past Saturday and the celestial tiger was in all ways more effective than my Eidolon.
He did not say it would never happen, he said a trick out versions of both.
Your eidolon is mostly not tricked out. If it is then it can probably almost handle the encounter by itself.
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Fair enough, as far as i could tell from that forum before i built the character, what i have is a fairly optimized Eidolon build. Point is the Celestial tiger was still...a lot...better.
Thats because the druid has the best animal companion (pouncing big cat), you do not have the best eidolon(pouncing quadraped).
A Quadraped, with 2 sets of claws, pounce, the large evolution, Rend (to go nicely with those 2 sets of claws), you have spent 12 points (with extra evolution you have 5 left) which can go into defense or into flight or something else that the cat cant possibly do, or just put it into ability increase strength 2 times to get into rediculous territory.
Your eidolon has 29 strength(without ability increase), and an attack routine of
1 bite +18 1d8+9+1d6(energy of your choice)
4 claws +18 1d6+9+1d6(energy of your choice)
this is without any feats like power attack or weapon focus or improved natural attack. With flight it can pounce on just about anything in most circumstances. As a summoner you can enlarge and haste your eidolon just for the heck of it
with power attack, weapon focus claws
1 bite +15 1d8+15+1d6(energy)
4 claws +16 1d6+15+1d6(energy)
The tiger cant match that, celestial servant or no celestial servant. Certainly its a good feat for animal companions, but it certainly doesnt make the eidolon unappealing by comparison.
i was going for a build very similar to what you are suggesting, though not sure why quadraped matters. Maybe i am missing something
Going for a Marolith look 6 arms, claws with 4 sword with the last two vs a bite attack. Same affect. Why does quad make it any easier to get there.
because the pounce evolution requires quadruped base form.
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Pounce + As many natural attack as possible at first level. As it scales, it gets even worse. Load up the Eidolon with a belt, evolution points to stack strength, give it power attack, and it'll wreck any Animal Companion in a DPR fight. PLUS, it's more useful outside of combat, being intelligent and not needing Handle Animal. The fact your Eidolon is using manufactured weapons means it's NOT 'tricked out'. Cool? Totally cool, but not optimal. Manufactured weapons are still bound by base attack, whereas the only real limitation on natural attack is the number in the Eidolon's statblock.
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Has anyone mentioned the fact that the Animal Companion's Spell Resistance will also block the druid's buff spells? And since there's no trick to make an animal lower its SR, you have to spend a move action to Push the AC every round you want to buff it. That takes a pretty big chunk out of the biggest benefit to pet-based classes i.e. improved action economy.
I hate to denigrate someones playing abilities, but I think if you've got a druid pet showing up an eidolon, especially at the levels of play you see in PFS, it probably has a lot more to do with comparative system mastery than the difference in power between an eidolon and an AC, even one with Celestial Servant.
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***I feel for the Eidolon, he is in big trouble head to head. on extra attack not a fair trade for DR/5. best case is a draw for the Eidolon
Spell resistance is as much a curse as a gift. The Eidolon gets to pick up Haste for a further extra attack which the AC could very well miss out on due to its SR, as well as any other goodies (Bull's Strength, Magic Fang, etc.). HIs attack potential will also continue to grow, with an ever-increasing number of attacks. As previously mentioned, you have also been comparing your sub-optimal eidolon to the single best AC out there, so that's a chunk of your issue.
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Gotcha, as you advance though your weapon continues go get more attacks, Max attack limits ONLY natural attacks
If you have a 6/1, 9/4 at 9th level plus the 4 (or 5) natural attacks. so you can get up to 7 attacks at 12 level without much work. Which is what i was going for. Plus using a two hander gives you the strength *1.5 which will get pretty nastyIn the head to head with the stack block suggested above, the difference is the free DR for the Cat. Its a game changer to have 5 or 10 dr.
Eidolons will almost always be more potent by pooling their damage into a large number of natural attacks gaining full STR to damage and being univeraslly enhanced by a single AoMF than by diluting their combat potential into manufactured weapons with decreasing attack bonuses for iteratives that are also sapping the effectiveness of any natural attacks they do have. It's also vastly more affordable and effective to enhance their natural attacks than to try and enchant half a dozen swords for them to use.
Has anyone mentioned the fact that the Animal Companion's Spell Resistance will also block the druid's buff spells?
...Crap. I've been playing a PFS character with Celestial Servant, based on the tactic of buffing my mount with spells.
Has anyone mentioned the fact that the Animal Companion's Spell Resistance will also block the druid's buff spells? And since there's no trick to make an animal lower its SR, you have to spend a move action to Push the AC every round you want to buff it. That takes a pretty big chunk out of the biggest benefit to pet-based classes i.e. improved action economy.
I hate to denigrate someones playing abilities, but I think if you've got a druid pet showing up an eidolon, especially at the levels of play you see in PFS, it probably has a lot more to do with comparative system mastery than the difference in power between an eidolon and an AC, even one with Celestial Servant.
I dont like SR. At least the summoner can bypass the eidolons SR automatically, so you have made another good point.
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28 Strength at level 9(14 base + 3 advancement +1 ability score increase +6 Large +2 Evolution))
Bite +16 (1d8+9)
4 Claws +16 (1d6+9)
Rend(1d6+13)
Rend(1d6+13)
Pounce
Power Attack(-2 Attack/+4 Damage)
I'm not worried about the Eidolon.
Basically, if any AC is outshining your Eidolon, then it's bad design by the player, not the system.
ok 12 evo is 9th level
Animal companion at that level
base stats
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13
+3 dex and str
advancement +8 str -2 dex +4 con
str 26 (+1 from ability) dex 18 con 18 (one from ability score increase)
a staggering stat advantage over the purposed Eidolon
rake grab pounce all for free with advancement1d6+8 x2 bite 1d8+12 has multi attack at this point so thats another 1d8+12 at -5 (like hitting will be an issue)
add power attack as a feat and it gets worse.
Resistances likely moot the energy damage mentioned (everything really bad is immune to fire taking that would be silly)
and the cat has Spell resistance 14
and DR 5/Evil (10 in two more levels)I feel for the Eidolon, he is in big trouble head to head. on extra attack not a fair trade for DR/5. best case is a draw for the Eidolon
BAB =+6
6+8=14 attack bonusPower attack makes it a +12
Let see how this matches up for DPR..
Now lets say the druid has crafting feats so the AC has a +2 amulet of mighty fist for a total of
16 and 14--->before PA/after PA
Target AC is 23
Charging+Pounce+no PA
No PA, with pounce DPR=57.20
DPR with PA, and pounce DPR 67.91
PS:That bite is not getting 1.5 strength mod damage. That only applies to animals with one primary attack, so the tiger is getting 1d8+8 before you account for my amulet of mighty fist I gave it.
edit: That becomes 18 and 16 with pounce, not that I think it matters.
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Basically, if any AC is outshining your Eidolon, then it's bad design by the player, not the system.
ok 12 evo is 9th level
Animal companion at that level
base stats
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13
+3 dex and str
advancement +8 str -2 dex +4 con
str 26 (+1 from ability) dex 18 con 18 (one from ability score increase)
a staggering stat advantage over the purposed Eidolon
rake grab pounce all for free with advancement
What are you talking about? At 9th level, a quadraped can have rediculous stats
Base STR 14 +3str/dex at 9th level + 1 from ability point increase, +8 from large evolution, + 4 from ability increase evolution twice.
The eidolon has a 32 strength. It can also have pounce and rake, and rend, and do it with 4 sets of claws and a bite instead of just 1 set.
1d6+8 x2 bite 1d8+12 has multi attack at this point so thats another 1d8+12 at -5 (like hitting will be an issue)
add power attack as a feat and it gets worse.
The eidolon can too take power attack and multi attack. It can also have 4 claws instead of just 2 each doing more damage then the cats claws with a better to hit bonus.
It can also take rend, and thus do an additional attack of claw + 1.5 strength each time it hits with two claws (which will be often).
An eidolon that is build similarly to the big cat (Large Quadraped with pounce, and bite claw x4) blows the big cat out of the watter in terms of damage
Resistances likely moot the energy damage mentioned (everything really bad is immune to fire taking that would be silly)
and the cat has Spell resistance 14
and DR 5/Evil (10 in two more levels)I feel for the Eidolon, he is in big trouble head to head. on extra attack not a fair trade for DR/5. best case is a draw for the Eidolon
The eidolon has a higher strength, better ac, more attacks, better mobility (it can fly if you take the evolution), has a better buffer in the form of the summoner vs the druid (who cant buff or heal his animal companion effectively because of the spell resistance). So why on earth are you feeling for the eidolon? The poor kitty just got eaten.
28 Strength at level 9(14 base + 3 advancement +1 ability score increase +6 Large +2 Evolution))
Bite +16 (1d8+9)
4 Claws +16 (1d6+9)
Rend(1d6+13)
Rend(1d6+13)Pounce
Power Attack(-2 Attack/+4 Damage)I'm not worried about the Eidolon.
I dont know if you can rend twice, but even if not the Eidolon is ahead with no rends. That is just damage.
With PA + pounce and no rends-->74.72
edit:I did not give the eidolon any magic items.
28 Strength at level 9(14 base + 3 advancement +1 ability score increase +6 Large +2 Evolution))
Bite +16 (1d8+9)
4 Claws +16 (1d6+9)
Rend(1d6+13)
Rend(1d6+13)Pounce
Power Attack(-2 Attack/+4 Damage)I'm not worried about the Eidolon.
-5 to each of those and kitty also has rend and about 40 more hit points. Kitty wins.
Rend is on my too do list. Dont need quad for that.
like the points made about focusing on all natural to not split efforts. Need to consider that. goes against the theme a bit , but its a good point.
There is no -5. Those are primary attacks unless the eidolon has a rules exception for claws.
How is the cat getting rend? If you are saying at higher levels you can get it, then the eidolon also improves at higher levels. Right now at level 9 the kitty is behind, so now it does not win.
PS:You might want a rules quote for that cat getting rend because I dont know of any of the hard covers giving it out, but I may be mistaken.
If you want to push this to a higher level you can, but the cat will fall further behind.
28 Strength at level 9(14 base + 3 advancement +1 ability score increase +6 Large +2 Evolution))
Bite +16 (1d8+9)
4 Claws +16 (1d6+9)
Rend(1d6+13)
Rend(1d6+13)Pounce
Power Attack(-2 Attack/+4 Damage)I'm not worried about the Eidolon.
-5 to each of those and kitty also has rend and about 40 more hit points. Kitty wins.
Rend is on my too do list. Dont need quad for that.
like the points made about focusing on all natural to not split efforts. Need to consider that. goes against the theme a bit , but its a good point.
The cat doesnt have rend, it has rake which is not the same thing. Also, none of the attacks for the eidolon are at -5 so long as it doesnt use manufactured weapons they are all at the highest attack bonus.
And how does the Cat have more hit points? They have the same Constitution score. Both start at 13, get a +4 bonus for going large and could potentially put 1 point into con from ability score increases (since their strength bonus is odd at this level).
The cat has 8d8+32 average of 68
The eidlon has 7d10+28 averae of 66.5.
Again you need to compare like to like. If you are going to compare against the big cat, the eidolon should have the large evolution, which pretty much (beside rules errors) evens out everything you are talking about.
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-5 to each of those and kitty also has rend and about 40 more hit points. Kitty wins.
Rend is on my too do list. Dont need quad for that.
like the points made about focusing on all natural to not split efforts. Need to consider that. goes against the theme a bit , but its a good point.
-5 to each of those is on you for not understanding that focusing on natural attacks instead of utilizing manufactured weapons is a losing strategy. As Wraithstrike and others pointed out above, the Eidolon's damage is overtopping the kitty's substantially before you even tag in magic items based solely on natural attacks. This is another place where the eidolon comes out ahead: since he has a larger number of natural attacks, he garners greater benefit from items like the Amulet of Mighty Fists, which applies its bonus to all natural attack forms. That equates to an exponentially larger gain in damage from the same item. Or from the same enhancement in cases like Greater Magic Fang (which the druid will have to take much more effort to cast on his cat than the summoner will to cast on his Eidolon since you've given the cat SR).
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you know it's not often you see a misunderstanding of how the eidolon works result in weaker eidolons...I should mark the occasion.
I dont know if you can rend twice, but even if not the Eidolon is ahead with no rends. That is just damage.
As far as I can tell you can.
Rend (Ex): An eidolon learns to rip and tear the flesh of those it attacks with its claws, gaining the rend ability. Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round, its claws latch onto the flesh and deal extra damage. This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon's Strength modifier. The eidolon must possess the claws evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
Emphasis mine.
Also, for Eidolons, Bite and Claw attacks are primary attacks, so they get full attack bonus, in case that was what the '-5 to those' was about.