My PCs are near 11th level in Kingmaker, have collected a fair amout of loot and are starting to overmatch alot of the encounters.
One particular tactic they employ is to have 2 of the characters become invisible. In addition, the sorcerer is also flying around. When he casts spells he stays invisible. So he can never be targeted.
The PCs are not way over powered or anything, I am just not sure how to deal with the levitating invisible sorcerer. I need to counter this invisible death machine.
I also have a Dragon Disciple who has six attacks when he uses his claws and teeth. He is 130 something HPs and 34 AC with stone skin.
How do I deal with that?
I want to challenge the PCs but not be too evil. How do I ramp up my game to match these super heroes?
Scent. Blind Sense. Blind Sight. Tremorsense. See Invisibility. True Seeing.
Those abilities are the touchstone powers to counter invisibility.
Devils with a scroll of Deeper Darkness will seriously mess them up.
I do just want to check: the sorcerer is using Greater Invisibility, yes? Because if he's not, he won't stay invisible very long if he's acting as an "invisible death machine".
Other ways to deal include playing smart bad guys: if the PCs use spells as a significant source of defence, don't send in the troops all at once. Send in a few weaker enemies (not too weak, mind, just enough to make the heroes nervous and bring out the serious combat spells). Wait five, ten, twenty minutes, then do the same again. And again. And again. Then you hit them with the actual attack. If you allow the players to control the pace of encounters, they will never be challenged. (This problem is also known as the 15 minute adventuring day.) If you wave-challenge them a couple of times, you can then throw a single big fight at them early in the day. They might choose to conserve resources instead of going all-out. Mix it up. Don't be afraid to really push the envelope on encounters - just don't throw 15 CR-appropriate encounters at them in a single day. Put numerous weaker ones in there, the kind they can clear in 2 rounds, a few at the right CR, and maybe a single big one.
And by far the best advice possible: single creature CR-appropriate encounters are no more than a speed-bump. Use multiple foes (preferably with different abilities) to keep the action economy at approximate parity when the fight starts.
Dispel, glitterdust, lantern of revealing.
Also, as noted, once the sorcerer begins casting offensive spells while invisible he will become visible unless he uses greater invisibility.
I also agree with the suggestion of deeper darkness as well. If the PCs can't see them (and deeper darkness is total concealment) they can't target them to hurt them.
Scent. Blind Sense. Blind Sight. Tremorsense. See Invisibility. True Seeing.
Those abilities are the touchstone powers to counter invisibility.
Devils with a scroll of Deeper Darkness will seriously mess them up.
I do just want to check: the sorcerer is using Greater Invisibility, yes? Because if he's not, he won't stay invisible very long if he's acting as an "invisible death machine".
Other ways to deal include playing smart bad guys: if the PCs use spells as a significant source of defence, don't send in the troops all at once. Send in a few weaker enemies (not too weak, mind, just enough to make the heroes nervous and bring out the serious combat spells). Wait five, ten, twenty minutes, then do the same again. And again. And again. Then you hit them with the actual attack. If you allow the players to control the pace of encounters, they will never be challenged. (This problem is also known as the 15 minute adventuring day.) If you wave-challenge them a couple of times, you can then throw a single big fight at them early in the day. They might choose to conserve resources instead of going all-out. Mix it up. Don't be afraid to really push the envelope on encounters - just don't throw 15 CR-appropriate encounters at them in a single day. Put numerous weaker ones in there, the kind they can clear in 2 rounds, a few at the right CR, and maybe a single big one.
And by far the best advice possible: single creature CR-appropriate encounters are no more than a speed-bump. Use multiple foes (preferably with different abilities) to keep the action economy at approximate parity when the fight starts.
Super good advice. Thanks.
As a GM, how do you justify or determine when to 'give' a creature blind sight for example so the encounters are more challenging? Do you make it story related? I think the PCs might start feeling cheated if all of a sudden everything they start running into has some ability to see invisible creatures.
Also, I need to start giving the bad guys magical weapons so that can even come close to the 34 AC. But again, the PCs worked to get this powerful only to have the enemies counter. I know the encounters need to be challenging, but I want it to seem fair and fun.
How do you GMs handle this?
Double check your rules. If the sorcerer attacks someone with a spell, even with an AoE like fireball, they become visible. Even with grater invis that only lasts a certain number of rounds instead of minutes like regular invisibility. You can only use a natural attack on a limb if you don't use another attack with that limb such as a weapon attack held in that hand. Stuff like that.
Unless you've put in a lot of extra encounters to let them exceed where the AP expects them to be level-wise it should be having things to challenge them. If you did do this, it's completely warranted to modify those encounters with the tie-in being ramifications from their earlier actions.
If they're starting to overpower the encounters, then whine at being "cheated" when you ramp up the monsters, then have the munchkin talk with them.
Monsters are wary, paranoid creatures. If they hear stories from their monster friends that there's a group of invisible stalkers laying waste to the hordes, don't you think they're going to figure out ways to see or somehow detect invisibility?
A one-trick pony tactic will only last so long...
Simple: have more encounters per day. If the PCs are running into an area, having 3 encounters, then retreating to camp and recover spells, then hit them with wandering monsters and "random" encounters to deplete their resources.
There is no reason for a sorcerer to be using Greater Invis and a dragon disciple to be using Stoneskin in every battle; if they are, then the GM is not giving them enough fights each day to force them to conserve resources.
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Don't forget Stoneskin has an expensive component. 250GP a pop can add up over time even at 12th level in Kingmaker.
Remember that while something is invisible it isn't inaudible, especially when it comes to spell casting. A lot of monsters have large AOE attacks that won't really care if the sorcerer is invisible if he's making a bunch of noise casting spells.
Plus you can also simply talk to them and let them know they are getting a bit out of hand. Your supposed to be having fun too after all. If the party is just constantly spamming the same tactics it would be nice of them to consider that might get boring for you. They're your friends, talk to them about it.
The Game Mastery Guide has a lot of dialog about problems like this.
I'm not familiar with Kingmaker past the third book, but keep in mind that as you encounter enemies that know who the players are it's not unreasonable for them to research their frequent tactics and take steps to counter them.
For instance if the paladin always starts his round by declaring Smite Evil on the biggest target in the encounter, I'd start that encounter with an illusion of an appropriately 'big nasty'.
If the rogue and the sorcerer always go invisible, starting your action with a readied Glitterdust isn't unreasonable. Nor is casting Detect Invisibility pre-combat if the opposition is aware of the PCs.
Simple: have more encounters per day. If the PCs are running into an area, having 3 encounters, then retreating to camp and recover spells, then hit them with wandering monsters and "random" encounters to deplete their resources.
There is no reason for a sorcerer to be using Greater Invis and a dragon disciple to be using Stoneskin in every battle; if they are, then the GM is not giving them enough fights each day to force them to conserve resources.
Yep, just add another low level encounter or two per day.
Now, I am not saying some BBEG can't have a Potion of See Invis or soemthing, once in while. But dont overuse it. That's cheezy.
Adding an occ spellcaster who has glitterdust works.
To add another more mundane suggestion: Even Greater Invisibility gives a chance to locate the target if it acts. Throw in some NPCs who have exceptionally high or augmented Perception scores and give them some thrown splash weapons or AoE spells.
That said, I have to agree with DM_Blake's suggestion about throwing in some extra encounters so that they have to learn some resource management. The difficulty there is making the encounters challenging enough to matter (so that they have to choose to burn some of their spells or face a tougher fight) but not so challenging as to accelerate XP gain even further.
Visibility, especially from inclement weather, is one way to reduce the effectiveness of flying, invisible spell casters.
You may also want to use terrain which gives cover and/ or concealment from flying attackers.
-TimD
Super good advice. Thanks.
As a GM, how do you justify or determine when to 'give' a creature blind sight for example so the encounters are more challenging? Do you make it story related? I think the PCs might start feeling cheated if all of a sudden everything they start running into has some ability to see invisible creatures.
Also, I need...
This is where GMing becomes more of an art than a science.
Firstly, never turn the game into an arms race. The GM can't lose that battle, and the players will resent it. It's perfectly fine to have some encounters where the enemies are able to counter PC tactics, but don't make it the norm. Let them have their fun, wiping out hordes of insignificant encounters with ease. Save the counter-tactics for when it's important - battles leading up to, and including, BBEGs.
Secondly, monsters aren't stupid (well, some are, but most aren't). Even an average Intelligence enemy will understand the necessity of reconnaissance. Spy on them a few times while they're fighting. Make the spies roll Stealth, and let the PCs roll Perception to spot them. Sooner or later, one spy will escape with news of the party's tactics. That's all it takes to justify their enemies taking precautions.
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IF the Big bad is a diviner wizard, then things will go badly for the PCs. After he scrys a battle, and sees the invisible /stoneskined party destroying his minions, then I would expect devious planning on his part. Have him start crafting dust of appearance to give to trusted lieutenants. Hire a master thief to steal the supply of granite and diamond dust that stoneskin needs. Have him hire a couple of ogres/ettins/giants with huge CMB bonuses to grapple and pin the DD to neutralize him instead of attacking him. Use mobile foes with spring attack to hit and run vs the DD to deny him full attacks with all natural weapons.
The other posters have provided a great list of specific counters to your PCs' abilities, but I'd like to provide a different sort of advice on how to deal with your PCs that's more to do with GM style and preparation.
I find that adding in specific counters to PC abilities can really take away the PCs' fun if not used sparingly. Yes, definitely they should come across the dragon with blindsense every so often, etc. But use these counters often and the PCs will begin to feel like they shouldn't have bothered gaining invisibility in the first place, etc.
One way that I have found to make encounters more challenging is to plan out, ahead of time, how intelligent enemies would react to the PCs' abilities, upon encountering them.
What would the evil cleric do, upon realizing that his enemies can fly and that at least one of them is invisible? Well if he has Invisibility Purge prepared he may try that. If not, would he stay and fight? Or would he withdraw and plan a later encounter against them where he *does* have invisibility purge ready?
What does the wizard do? If he has a fireball or two prepared he may just try and bomb the area and blast the flying caster out of the sky. (Even if you've got improved invisibility your location at the time of your action can often be determined. That gives aoe a chance to tag you even if they don't know exactly where you are.)
The fighter? Does he mindlessly engage in a pointless battle, or does he withdraw into a 5' hallway, forcing the flying mage to land to get line-of-sight?
It can be tough, as a DM, to think up counters on the spot. But preparation is a DM's best friend. You know your PCs' abilities. And you can plan for how your bad guys would react upon learning of them.
Just be careful you don't always give your NPCs the *perfect* counter-strategy. Their responses should make sense given the NPC's intelligence, temperament, etc.
That said, having the foes react accordingly rather than mindlessly throw themselves into the meat grinder can add a lot to your encounters. it lets your PCs continue to use their nifty abilities,. but they'll have to start thinking about how to use them intelligently when their foes start reacting to them.
