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Salutations.
Nine months ago, give or take, I joined PFS as Venture Captain of the Salt Lake area. I had run Adventure Paths and the such for years. I knew that Organized play had some stronger rules and reporting attached to it. I was running a PFS play by post at the time...and within a month, I had people reporting me because I adjusted some of the rules at the time to facilitate online play. In my first few month running games locally and reviewing sheets I was constantly reminded by a number of players that while not everyone in my region had all the backup for their characters in order, they all KNEW they better have it ready for any convention, because those are super official and stuff!
So, in running local games, I made sure to continuously communicate and uphold RAW at the table. I spot checked character sheets regularly, and reviewed with players when they used illegal copies of books as backup, illegal feats, poor builds, etc. (I always limit myself to about 15 minutes of checking, and I check people who I haven't checked in a while so everyone eventually gets looked over). I had some people walk away very upset I did this, but the rules are the rules, right? And, it is usually the GM who enforces the rules of the game, and the rules of the PFS organized play, at the table.
So, imagine my surprise when, at PaizoCon, I learned that a very small minority of other PFS GMs were checking sheets at all. I questioned over a dozen players, including my friends from Utah who game. None of them had their sheets checked unless they sat at my table. Every player I asked told me I was the only one.
I only do spot checks, as I hold to a 15 minute rule...but at the con alone, I found a 30 point build, two players with gold off by thousands, 2 players who did not have ANY backup (books OR chronicle sheets) for their tier 7-11 characters and one with a completely illegal item.
The fact that sheets are very, very rarely reviewed isn't limited to the con. It was clear that many of these players, from all over the country, had rarely, if ever, had their sheets checked. A 30 point build is easy to spot, but it had been on the character sheet for well over a dozen sessions by the time I saw it.
I passionately believe that checking sheets creates a fair, even playing field for the players which, in turn, makes the game more fun (after all, it's hard to have fun if a player or two in the party has a 30 point build with illegal items). It is my intention to encourage GMs to check sheets at each session whenever possible. In talking with other GMs and VO's about my concerns, some agreed. Those who did not had some common concerns I'd like to address here, as part of my plea to the community.
There's no time
Time management is always a difficult part of running any PFS scenario. Trust me, I understand. The stores we run at close at 10 promptly, and we arrive at the store at 5.30. Clearly, there's not enough time to do a forensic audit at the table. What we do is a simple spot check, and we limit ourselves to 15 minutes or less total for sheet checking. If something looks too complicated, we take a picture of the sheets with our phones (or write down some notes), get the player's email information, and look it up/follow up after the fact. If you are running a scenario that you know is time consuming and skip this step, no one is going to yell...but that should be the exception, not the rule.
It is not fun/It does not create a fun environment
True, reviewing characters sheets is not fun for the GM, and players can get bored if you take too long. Some players may not appreciate you questioning some things on their sheets. However, the even playing field it does create makes the game more fun over the long run.
I trust my players. Reviewing their sheets and backup sends a negative message to the contrary.
Hey, I have checked dozens of players, and I have caught maybe 2 who were outright cheating (Not recording expenditures I clearly told them to or using illegal material I knew they knew was illegal). But, you're right, the vast majority of people do not check. However, a lot of us do make mistakes. Pathfinder is a complicated game and PFS adds another layer of rules and upkeep. You would be surprised the sheer number of mistakes that are made...some of them rather large! One gentleman had a dozen or so more HPs because he added in correctly. Another was missing out on 7k gold because he skipped a chron sheet.
That brings me to another point...nearly half of the mistakes I found didn't make the character too powerful, but the opposite! I've seen 15 point builds, characters missing gold, feats, favored class bonuses and more. A player disappointed with his character performance may leave your game without saying a word, never knowing that he was missing critical elements that his character was actually entitled to!
I've heard about people leaving PFS because GMs who check treat them like jerks.
I've actually been the recipient of this type of behavior before...so I completely understand. I almost left Pathfinder as a hobby because of it. But, if YOU treat people with respect, the way you want to be treated, in reviewing their sheets, it doesn't have to be a negative experience at all. It can actually be positive. If you see mistakes, explain it to the player on the side. If they look confused, commit to spend some time during the break, or after the game, helping them to get it straight. Use it as an opportunity to build a bridge, rather than just to bust their chops, and you'll find the majority of players appreciate your assistance.
If you do this, you will invariably tick someone off. It's bound to happen. There are those who do not want to buy the book to back up their character, take the time to look up whether the feats they saw on d20pfsrd.com was actually legal, etc. You will have the occasional player who doesn't respect that organized play is exactly that. Sure, they could join or start their own AP or homebrew where none of this matters...but they're going to give YOU a hard time at your table. I've had it happen four times in the last nine months. Trust me, you don't want those types of players at your tables in PFS anyway. Give them Mike's email address and politely ask them to play somewhere else.
I hope this helps. Again, ultimately, I would like to see a stronger presence of double checking sheets somewhat regularly in order to create a more fair and consistent experience that comes to mind when we talk about organized play.
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As a funny aside, I use Herolab, and my sheets, AND an excel sheet to track gold expenditure (chronicles are the 'system of record' of course).
When I leveled my oracle to 7 I noticed that Herolob said I had 4K gold more then my sheets added to.
Apparently, in the excitement, I managed to record buying a +2 charisma headband... twice, on 2 separate sheets.
So yeah, not only the GM, but players should also check their sheets.
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Nothing wrong with auditing sheets. Its right in the rules as something you are supposed to do.
Its just that I have never seen it done. I have played 99 scenarios/specials and several modules and have never once had a character sheet of mine actually audited.
I did see a slot once at a convention dedicated to character sheet auditing but it was voluntary on the part of the player.
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GMs in my neck of the woods will check to make sure that prior chronicle sheets are calculated and that players (especially) new ones are carrying over information correctly.
Character sheets aren't audited per se, however 'unusual' actions / damage results / saves are queried from time to time, just as 'sanity checks' when players announce unusual results. I find this method has the least possibility of creating an antagonistic atmosphere, but also requires a lot of system mastery to not do it too often as to hold the game up.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm with you, Philip. I look through characters, and I'm told that I'm the only one.
And, as Kyle has pointed out, the more familiar we are with the character's capabilities (through the character sheet) and history (through the Chronicles) the better we can tailor an adventure to the indivudal.
But there are times when it really is Not Fun. I looked through a PCs Chronicles this past February, I found a couple of out-of-tier Chronicles that couldn't be applied, and she was crushed. At Origins, I found the same thing (a home GM had let a character through Rebel's Ransom at level 3, just as an example) and it cost her PC 2 levels. She was a great player, just unfamiliar with some rules.
I'm still struggling with how to make that a positive, fun experience.
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I totally approve of auditing characters. I wish others held a more proactive view on this like you do Phillip. It really helps to have another set of eyes comb a sheet and notice when something was missed or mistaken and I appreciate it when mine are looked over.
I wonder which modules might traditionally run shorter. That would be good to get run to give a table a decent audit.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm pretty sure that "right before we start an adventure" is a bad time to audit a PC. If there's something wrong or missing, there's no time to make things right.
My vote is a local game day right before a convention. At cons, I'll help players with their characters during the slots I'm not running.
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Players should check their sheet; a GM should really only check if they absolutely don't believe the player OR it's a major event (Atlanta will check you for everything @ retirement).
For all the listed reasons (time waste, annoying); why bother? If the player honestly needs to cheat to have fun, it doesn't bother me a lot. If a player is off the scales I'll audit them, but otherwise who wants to have that be a part of your regular occurances?
Though I am (now) quite studious; and actually check my online registration too in case my sheets are ever lost.
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As a Pathfinder Society Organized Play Game Master running a session at a convention or an in-store event, you have the following duties.
• Introduce yourself.
• Encourage your players to introduce themselves (and their characters).
• Look over each player’s character sheet and previous Chronicle sheets, quickly checking wealth, equipment, calculations, and so on.
• Start playing the session.
• Play for no more than 5 hours. (Note: home games and online games do not necessarily have to follow this
restriction, and some conventions may run longer slots.)
• Give each player an accurate Chronicle sheet for that scenario (see Filling Out a Chronicle Sheet, later in this chapter).
• At conventions, you may also be expected to quickly fill out scenario or module reporting sheets with additional tracking information—these sheets need to be turned in to your coordinator so she can report the results. • When acting as both the Game Master and coordinator for an event, you are expected to report the results of your sessions on paizo.com/pathfindersociety in a timely fashion. Failing to do so has negative consequences for Pathfinder Society as a whole (see the sidebar on page 30).
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For all the listed reasons (time waste, annoying); why bother? If the player honestly needs to cheat to have fun, it doesn't bother me a lot. If a player is off the scales I'll audit them, but otherwise who wants to have that be a part of your regular occurances?
Though I am (now) quite studious; and actually check my online registration too in case my sheets are ever lost.
Why bother?
- When the wrong numbers are used because of cheating or (more often) mistakes, it creates unintended imbalance. No player likes it when her character is consistently outshined.- This is organized play, and if cheaters and massive mistakes are constantly left unchecked, it is no longer organized.
- It is in the rules as quoted above...
- ... And even if you don't respect those guidelines, please respect the ones who do by helping to enforce the guidelines. Let me explain that one a little further.
You see if the majority of GMs do not check, then the few GMs who are checking, in accordance with the written guideline end up looking like complete jerks. When I asked a player who had No backup to play a pregen, he and his friend got upset at me. In turn that made me feel frustrated and angry. Why were they upset? "You are the only one doing this". Of course I reply that I'm just following the rules.
So, when you and other GMs do not check, you indirectly put us in an unfair situation . When Your players sit at my table, and I ask for sheets and additional resources. Suddenly I look like a complete prick by comparison. So, when you don't check sheets on a regular basis, in a way it can be disrespectful ... Or at least very inconsiderate, of your fellow GMs who DO follow the guideline.
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You also mention that you spot check if something seems out of whack. I would like to add that to my Points above as I hear that on a lot, too.
I feel most of my player sheets are accurate, or close enough. If something looks at of whack in play, THEN I look at it.
I have no scientific proof backing this up....but I think this method, which the vast majority of GMs I talk to use, is broken. I'm guessing either the GMs aren't as good as they say they are in catching broken stuff, or they just don't call it out enough for fear of pushback or taking time. All I can tell you is that I found numerous, significant issues with my spot checks that these players' GMs did not see after dozens of games in motion with the broken builds or whatnot. Again, in one table I had layers from all different areas with large issues including 30 point builds, illegal feats, gold value off by 1000s, etc. This representation of the result of our collective mindset as GMs is not organized.
We need to work together, as a team, to raise the bar. It won't happen overnight...and we will not hit a home run each time. But if we take some simple steps to raise the bar at our tables, and do it in a way that is respectful and helpful rather then condescending, we might put the 'organized' back into our play.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The problem with "I only spot-check people if I have some suspicion that something is wrong" is that spot-checking then becomes an indication that the GM thinks that something about the player's character sheet or Chronicles is wrong. It becomes an accusation.
Sometimes I have enough time to look over everybody's sheets; terrific. Sometimes, the play session is tight, and I've had to deal ith other issues, and players are late to the table, and we're lucky to get started at all.
In the middle of those extremes, when there's time to look at some PC but not everybody, I spot-check two types of players:
1) any venture-officer who sits at my table, because they usually have their ducks in a row, and it shows everybody else what a well-organized PC looks like, and
2) new players, especially young players. It's been my experience that a lot of people start in with PFS and nobody actually explains the rules. "Here's your Chronicle sheet." "What do I do with this?" "Keep it."
So, before they hit seventh level or their third character, I want to look at the Chronicles and make sure that that the player is filling out her paperwork. I'm not catching violators, I'm teaching new players.
I also spot-check people when I think something's wrong. But I try not to make that the only time.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I didn't bring Dex, Talyn, or Rey to Origins because while *I* know they're legit, my record keeping was, less than stellar.
Imagine my surprise when a) no one glanced at Ksenia and b) I had a shocked GM when I said, "Would you like to see my list of alternate resources?"
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Just looking at raw in game numbers you wont be able to see the whole picture, however at the same time in a local game I am not going to waste all our time auditing builds I know are legal.
At a Con with an unfamiliar build or player I might do an audit to ensure the player has accurately filled everything out, but for my locals I know what they can do, what their stats are, if they do or do not have the books required for that build. The only thing I could not be 100% on is that they have spent their gold accurately, I can check but that will drag on for quite a while.
I agree that just waiting for something to seem off will not catch the majority of issues, however considering the amount of chronicles a player can obtain the time it takes to search through them all is excessive.
30 point build (probably amounts to a +1 or +2 to a few skills and saves hard to spot just by listening to a players saves or skills, eventually it might dawn that he has a very nice bonus to seemingly everything).
Illegal feats (I am assuming this means feats obtained too early, like PA as a level 1 cleric, this is noticeable at level 1, but by level 3+ you wont notice this by the player saying I power attack it).
Gold off by 1000's (this is the hardest to spot in game, this gold could be in anything consumables, or even just a single extra +1 to a weapon once again not skewing the raw numbers too far).
I am more than willing to submit my characters for audits, it will take around 1hr per character on average (including tracking of all purchases) and they will pass as I do a full audit of all my PC's every time they level to ensure everything is legal.
In my OP , I'm not suggesting a forensic audit, but rather quick, informal reviews. On the average I look over 3-4 characters, and check numbers, gold, HPs etc...whatever catches my eye. I never spend too long on any one thing....no more then I would on a combat ruling on the table I wasn't clear on. Just doing that kind of spot checks at the con, I found the issues I listed earlier. Had I done a complete review, I may have found more. Sure.
Look some of you say, Why spot check anything? You can never catch everything unless you spend an hour per player, especially at higher levels!. C'mon guys, if everyone does a five to 15 minute review a lot WOULD be caught over the long run. Imagine if the IRS stopped doing random audits because they cannot review everyone. We, as a community CAN do better than that. It a GM gives my sheets 5 minutes of his time every other session, that's nearly a half hour of review before I'm level 3. The GM may not catch ALL my mistakes, but I'm willing to bet the majority of them would be addressed.
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Friends dont let friends use Hero Lab.Friends don't let friends use Hero Labs unsupervised until they know what they're doing without it.
This. We just recently realized one of our newbies had something wrong with all of his characters thanks to a HeroLab-type program, and he had no idea because he had no idea how to do the math.
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Getting ready for PaizoCon, I noticed that one of my characters was over on gold due to a mathmatical error on the chronicle. I spent a good hour correcting that mistake. (I'm never writing a .5 on my chronicle ever again. Tracking the silver is not worth it.)
Note that HeroLab was not the cause of this.
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Last night I had 3 players at my table that I introduced to PFS about a year ago. They have been playing very little along the way. One had a Paladin at 2nd level, one had 3 characters all of 1-2 level. Last night was my first time GMing for them since they started. Well, a little ways into Frostfur Captives I noticed several things wrong. Paladin doing waaay too much damage, the half orc monk with a 14 perception, and various other things that didn't seem right. When I looked at their sheets, they were all completely messed up. None of them had chosen feats, didn't know how skills worked, had numbers from Asmodeus-knows-where in the weapon to hit & damage boxes, etc... They told me several GMs had glanced at their sheets at other games, handed them back and said "they're fine". Holy Cow! Well, these players told me they had difficulty understandind the rulebook on how to make & level upa character. Mind you, these players have Never played an RPG before so I can understand not knowing how to fill in a character sheet, the various rules & mechanics, etc... I just can't believe the other GMs didn't notice or care about their sheets. We live in Denver and these girls have even played at "PFS for Beginners" tables but seemed to not get the help they really needed. So, I'm going to sit down with them & help them redo their characters and teach them the process of leveling up.
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Friends dont let friends use Hero Lab.Agreed. Herolab gets used as a crutch too often. I usually oversimplify this statement and say, "Herolab makes people stupid."
I would agree with that. Every now and then I make a character by hand and I end up having to go and look stuff up that I should know. How many points is a 17 worth? How many spells do I get? No clue....wheres my Herolab!
That being said Herolab makes less mistakes than I do. In fact I have yet to catch one that wasn't my fault (usually a check box somewhere) in the last year.
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I will say that the most in depth I've ever been with character audits has been for Eyes of the Ten. Every time I tell the players I'm going to do this, their eyes widen with fear.
Players: There's no reason to fear an audit. Even if you're cheating on purpose, so what? We'll fix it, make it legal for my table, and we'll have fun. Then you can go on to the next table and cheat again if that's what you need to be happy.
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This is the most hilarious thing I have read from you.
Players: There's no reason to fear an audit. Even if you're cheating on purpose, so what? We'll fix it, make it legal for my table, and we'll have fun. Then you can go on to the next table and cheat again if that's what you need to be happy.
Comical, but I have to agree with the man. You'll fix it for my table, and if other GM's don't care to peruse your math that is entirely up to them. At that point you're (you're as in a purely fictional individual employed to highlight a potential) free to resume your cheating if so inclined, as it's no longer my concern.
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I agree, that is what makes the statement so hilarious to me. It is funny because it is true. I constantly review the math for my characters. If someone found something off in one of my characters I would be ashamed I did not mention it. That why I would be worried when someone audits me, that I would look stupid and do something wrong. But I welcome any DM to check my math at the same time.
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Brett:
The shopping function on hero lab seems a little wonky. I don't know if its saving characters all over the place , people aren't saving at the right time, or if there's a button you need to finalize a purchase or what, but everyone that's been using it for our home game to track treasure are getting seriously messed up and they're only on level 3.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Brett:
The shopping function on hero lab seems a little wonky. I don't know if its saving characters all over the place , people aren't saving at the right time, or if there's a button you need to finalize a purchase or what, but everyone that's been using it for our home game to track treasure are getting seriously messed up and they're only on level 3.
If you are buying multiples of the same item (rations, potions, etc) you need to hit the set price button before hitting the add button or you will only be charged for one of the item.
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"These nails are in the wrong place. Yea get the guy a new hammer, the one he has doesn't know where they go."
It, s naught mi kiebord misspilling wirds or ees eet! Muhahaha.
If one person keeps putting in crooked nails, i question their carpentry abilities.
If three out of three people i see using a hammer put in crooked nails, and then i pick up the hammer and the nails are still going in crooked then i think i'm pretty justified in saying that the hammer is messed up.
And misquoting someone and putting a morons "werdz" in their mouth is both disingenuous and rude.
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Hmmm...I was hoping to engender an intelligent conversation about reviewing sheets in order to create a more organized and consistant playing environment. Perhaps an in depth analysis of the profound implications of Herolabs on the PFS community could be discussed in another thread?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Mud-slinging aside, Philip, I think HeroLab is an important part of that discussion. I've run at cons where just about every player has a sheet built by HeroLab. If it looks well-used, there's a lot of things I don't have to worry about checking.
But it's also the case that new players trust HeroLab entirely too much. (I had one guy, been playing 6 months, never audited, whose 3rd-level character had a point buy of 5. Not 20. 5. He made up for that by using his +3 frost brand greatsword. Did any of that seem odd to him? No, HeroLab allowed it. And he was new, so he didn't have a baseline to judge it against. But didn't that seem weird to any of his GMs?)
Has anybody here ever said: "All you players, pass your character sheet and Chronicles to the left" and used the players as assistants for audits?
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This is one reason I love playing PbF. Folks post their characters on an open forum, which gives the GM plenty of time to review. In addition, most of the other players look over the character as well, and can help catch mistakes.
So, I whole-heartedly support the idea of getting other players to help perform the audits. Preferrably letting someone other than a friend of the player perform the audit.
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When players start viewing it negatively, just throw some statistics their way.
"Did you know that 75% of the audits performed by the IRS result in taxpayers getting more money back? That's why we do these audits! To hopefully find where you forgot to add something in!"
That should appease them, right? ;)
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When players start viewing it negatively, just throw some statistics their way.
"Did you know that 75% of the audits performed by the IRS result in taxpayers getting more money back? That's why we do these audits! To hopefully find where you forgot to add something in!"
That should appease them, right? ;)
That's probably pretty close to my percentage too for PFS. I go out of my way to find mistakes FOR the player, more so than to find mistakes against them. I remember looking over an level 11 fighter who was bragging about his character's abilities. I handed it back to him and said your attack bonus should be +33, not +32, you forgot [insert whatever it was]. I believe I later killed that fighter with a huge black dragon...
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That's probably pretty close to my percentage too for PFS. I go out of my way to find mistakes FOR the player, more so than to find mistakes against them. I remember looking over an level 11 fighter who was bragging about his character's abilities. I handed it back to him and said your attack bonus should be +33, not +32, you forgot [insert whatever it was]. I believe I later killed that fighter with a huge black dragon...
That'll learn him not to forget his +1!
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That's probably pretty close to my percentage too for PFS. I go out of my way to find mistakes FOR the player, more so than to find mistakes against them. I remember looking over an level 11 fighter who was bragging about his character's abilities. I handed it back to him and said your attack bonus should be +33, not +32, you forgot [insert whatever it was]. I believe I later killed that fighter with a huge black dragon...When players start viewing it negatively, just throw some statistics their way.
"Did you know that 75% of the audits performed by the IRS result in taxpayers getting more money back? That's why we do these audits! To hopefully find where you forgot to add something in!"
That should appease them, right? ;)
Wow, you're cruel! Build up their excitement just to crush their spirits and take it all away. I see I have much to learn in the ways of the GM from you. ;)