Prepared vs. Spontaneous: Which Casters do you prefer? (And why?)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
it does help you on the opposed charisma check. which benefits the spell.

most of the spells you listed have no charisma check.


Marthkus wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Could you quote the part of dominate and suggestion that relies on Cha checks for me?

And here's the descriptions for the other spells

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-ally

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-undead

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate

Marthkus, please indicate where a charisma check is required in these spells

But you did list those spells!

That is a list.

You made it.

The listing of that spell has been done!

What I did was transform a list ALREADY created to identify it's items by URL.


Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
it does help you on the opposed charisma check. which benefits the spell.
most of the spells you listed have no charisma check.

must have had 3.5 or 3.0 on my mind.

the charisma check is their to force the creatures to do stuff outside their nature

but i played D&D 3.5, D&D 3.0, PF, a bit of Everquest d20 via PBP, a brief bit of d20 modern, a campaign of savage worlds, a brief bit of Dragon Age d20, a bit of heavily houseruled 1e/Osric for a few one shots, a one shot 5E playtest, and a few one shots of WoW d20 and a few houseruled d20 RPG campaigns. most of them, spells that summon or control creatures, typically have an opposed charisma check to force the creature to do things against their nature. such as forcing a fire elemental to enter a puddle of water, or forcing a squire to attack their paladin master.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
it does help you on the opposed charisma check. which benefits the spell.
most of the spells you listed have no charisma check.

must have had 3.5 or 3.0 on my mind.

the charisma check is their to force the creatures to do stuff outside their nature

but i played D&D 3.5, D&D 3.0, PF, a bit of Everquest d20 via PBP, a brief bit of d20 modern, a campaign of savage worlds, a brief bit of Dragon Age d20, a bit of heavily houseruled 1e/Osric for a few one shots, a one shot 5E playtest, and a few one shots of WoW d20 and a few houseruled d20 RPG campaigns. most of them, spells that summon or control creatures, typically have an opposed charisma check to force the creature to do things against their nature. such as forcing a fire elemental to enter a puddle of water, or forcing a squire to attack their paladin master.

You did the same thing I did.


Marthkus wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
it does help you on the opposed charisma check. which benefits the spell.
most of the spells you listed have no charisma check.

must have had 3.5 or 3.0 on my mind.

the charisma check is their to force the creatures to do stuff outside their nature

but i played D&D 3.5, D&D 3.0, PF, a bit of Everquest d20 via PBP, a brief bit of d20 modern, a campaign of savage worlds, a brief bit of Dragon Age d20, a bit of heavily houseruled 1e/Osric for a few one shots, a one shot 5E playtest, and a few one shots of WoW d20 and a few houseruled d20 RPG campaigns. most of them, spells that summon or control creatures, typically have an opposed charisma check to force the creature to do things against their nature. such as forcing a fire elemental to enter a puddle of water, or forcing a squire to attack their paladin master.

You did the same thing I did.

even the same game systems?


Aelryinth wrote:

Other Points for spontaneous casters:

There's two magic items widely quoted as hugely valuable to Sorcs, a Vest and something else. Anyone refer them?

Two, the ability to gain two extra spells Known for a sorc is FAR more powerful then two extra spells for a spell book. If you compare value in gold cost, the one is Pages of Spell Knowledge as a Favored Class bonus, and the other is...copying some extra spells.

Three, Pages of Spell Knowledge are more valuable then Pearls of Power. One gives more spellcasting choices, the other is a spam tool.

Four, The Versatile Spontaneity feat is considerably more powerful then Spell Specialization...one lets you prepare any spells and amass a spell book, and turn your higher level spell slots into other spells. The other lets you use ONE SPELL spontaneously.

Five, Spon casters get much more out of Metamagic, because it allows them to use their higher level spell slots for 'extra spells' without penalizing them or forcing them to know more magic. Indeed, Quicken Spell works much better for spon casters then prepared ones. If you're far enough back or going first, the fact you are not moving isn't going to hurt you, especially if it's by surprise (the best time to be trotting out that Intensified Maximized Dazing Fireball).

Given the current game environment, I'd lean towards a spon caster, and human. Just sounds like more fun. If they can take Heritage: Half-elf and play with Paragon Surge (maybe buy the spell with Human FC bonus for double injury!) that would just be too funny.

==Aelryinth

Thanks for the analysis - that amount of work should be acknowledged at least once.

Also, the Use Magic Device Skill - if maximised - provides a huge amount of versatility too, although I accept Sorcerer's tend to have more skills they want to develop than skill points.


strayshift wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Other Points for spontaneous casters:

There's two magic items widely quoted as hugely valuable to Sorcs, a Vest and something else. Anyone refer them?

Two, the ability to gain two extra spells Known for a sorc is FAR more powerful then two extra spells for a spell book. If you compare value in gold cost, the one is Pages of Spell Knowledge as a Favored Class bonus, and the other is...copying some extra spells.

Three, Pages of Spell Knowledge are more valuable then Pearls of Power. One gives more spellcasting choices, the other is a spam tool.

Four, The Versatile Spontaneity feat is considerably more powerful then Spell Specialization...one lets you prepare any spells and amass a spell book, and turn your higher level spell slots into other spells. The other lets you use ONE SPELL spontaneously.

Five, Spon casters get much more out of Metamagic, because it allows them to use their higher level spell slots for 'extra spells' without penalizing them or forcing them to know more magic. Indeed, Quicken Spell works much better for spon casters then prepared ones. If you're far enough back or going first, the fact you are not moving isn't going to hurt you, especially if it's by surprise (the best time to be trotting out that Intensified Maximized Dazing Fireball).

Given the current game environment, I'd lean towards a spon caster, and human. Just sounds like more fun. If they can take Heritage: Half-elf and play with Paragon Surge (maybe buy the spell with Human FC bonus for double injury!) that would just be too funny.

==Aelryinth

Thanks for the analysis - that amount of work should be acknowledged at least once.

Also, the Use Magic Device Skill - if maximised - provides a huge amount of versatility too, although I accept Sorcerer's tend to have more skills they want to develop than skill points.

unless they possess the sage bloodline arcana, which costs them their charisma advantage.


I like the spontaneous caster mechanics because once the party gets rich enough some choice scrolls/wands and even staves can expand your repertoire and complement your focus. Although coming across the specific ones that you want is rare so it's only sound in theory.

So the ones I always end up actually playing tend to be prepared casters.


Essentially a sorcerer gets only one spell, per spell-level, more than a specialist wizard, at level 20. This deviates a bit over the course of the levels, but at least it winds up, with a 1 spell per spell-level difference.

So I guess if you're basing the decision of whether to play sorcerer or wizard, on the amount of spells available, and the power of said spells, you have to decide whether you want more spells, or if you want the more powerful spell earlier, and then be about 1-2 spells per day behind until the late game, where the gap widens.

Well that and the bonus feats.

-Nearyn


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Nearyn wrote:

Essentially a sorcerer gets only one spell, per spell-level, more than a specialist wizard, at level 20. This deviates a bit over the course of the levels, but at least it winds up, with a 1 spell per spell-level difference.

So I guess if you're basing the decision of whether to play sorcerer or wizard, on the amount of spells available, and the power of said spells, you have to decide whether you want more spells, or if you want the more powerful spell earlier, and then be about 1-2 spells per day behind until the late game, where the gap widens.

Well that and the bonus feats.

-Nearyn

Yes but the reason I prefer the Sorcerer is their far greater ability to utilise the spells they have in a way that is best for the situation at hand. Likewise the ability to occasionally spam a large number of spells means that I think Sorcerers contribute more to the party than a Wizard who tends to have a large but fixed selection of spell options available. Finally at mid-high levels a Sorcerer are more likely to be able to utilise all their spell level slots in a relevant way and less likely to be stuck with a few useless spells.

I think these advantages, thrown in with frequently having more spell levels to cast (as per Aelrynth's analysis) are worth the slightly slower spell progression. Other people don't - that's fine - it all comes down to play style.


strayshift wrote:

Yes but the reason I prefer the Sorcerer is their far greater ability to utilise the spells they have in a way that is best for the situation at hand. Likewise the ability to occasionally spam a large number of spells means that I think Sorcerers contribute more to the party than a Wizard who tends to have a large but fixed selection of spell options available. Finally at mid-high levels a Sorcerer are more likely to be able to utilise all their spell level slots in a relevant way and less likely to be stuck with a few useless spells.

I think these advantages, thrown in with frequently having more spell levels to cast (as per Aelrynth's analysis) are worth the slightly slower spell progression. Other people don't - that's fine - it all comes down to play style.

Yeah I like how when my first attempt at save-or-suck fails due to poor (good?) die rolls I can always try again and again on a spontaneous caster. Prepared casters don't always have that kind of luxury so that's why I like spontaneous mechanics.

That said though, you usually have your DC up the wazoo if you want to rely on those spells so it's quite unlikely you'll need third or fourth helpings of the spell.

I suppose my collective answer is that I think Prepared Casters are much more powerful but Spontaneous Casters are more fun to play. If you like powerful, adaptable characters then you'll have just as much fun with Prepared casters. If you're real lazy (like moi) and just want to blast the same spell(z) over and over again at times, then spontaneous caster might be the one for you too.

Wish there was a spontaneous casting druid variant :( (WS iz important so no oracle).


I prefer spontaneous casters. You're not as versatile as a preparation caster. You can usually get about anything done with a handful of spells. It's nice to be able to cast every spell on your list.


Kittenological wrote:
strayshift wrote:

Yes but the reason I prefer the Sorcerer is their far greater ability to utilise the spells they have in a way that is best for the situation at hand. Likewise the ability to occasionally spam a large number of spells means that I think Sorcerers contribute more to the party than a Wizard who tends to have a large but fixed selection of spell options available. Finally at mid-high levels a Sorcerer are more likely to be able to utilise all their spell level slots in a relevant way and less likely to be stuck with a few useless spells.

I think these advantages, thrown in with frequently having more spell levels to cast (as per Aelrynth's analysis) are worth the slightly slower spell progression. Other people don't - that's fine - it all comes down to play style.

Yeah I like how when my first attempt at save-or-suck fails due to poor (good?) die rolls I can always try again and again on a spontaneous caster. Prepared casters don't always have that kind of luxury so that's why I like spontaneous mechanics.

That said though, you usually have your DC up the wazoo if you want to rely on those spells so it's quite unlikely you'll need third or fourth helpings of the spell.

I suppose my collective answer is that I think Prepared Casters are much more powerful but Spontaneous Casters are more fun to play. If you like powerful, adaptable characters then you'll have just as much fun with Prepared casters. If you're real lazy (like moi) and just want to blast the same spell(z) over and over again at times, then spontaneous caster might be the one for you too.

Wish there was a spontaneous casting druid variant :( (WS iz important so no oracle).

You could always take the sorcerer or oracle spells per day and spells known tables and apply them to the druid class, utilizing the druid spell list. That's what I would do. I prefer spontaneous casters overall. If I were to play a magus, I'd take the spells per day and spells known tables from the bard and use the magus spell list.


Fnipernackle wrote:
You could always take the sorcerer or oracle spells per day and spells known tables and apply them to the druid class, utilizing the druid spell list. That's what I would do. I prefer spontaneous casters overall. If I were to play a magus, I'd take the spells per day and spells known tables from the...

Would that be balanced though? I think it'd be on the weaker side of things if anything and my DM isn't quite so hot about it either.


The problem is the lack of spells known. Sorcerer and Oracle have bonus spells known. Druid doesn't and domain spells wouldn't be balance when so adapted because many are off-list


Atarlost wrote:
The problem is the lack of spells known. Sorcerer and Oracle have bonus spells known. Druid doesn't and domain spells wouldn't be balance when so adapted because many are off-list

hmm ok, I found this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm 3.5 material that basically says 'ok try this'. Well, since there seems to have been a printed rule of it, I think I got a better ground on convincing my DM to let me try this.

Fortunately I've been preparing for a blaster-type druid for the upcoming campaign so needless to say, I'll have a blast playing this thing, heh.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like spontaneous casters because you need to plan only once how you are going to progress your character, if you do it well. And when you get to the level you get more than two spells, you have a very nice flexibility which often makes things possible where the prepared caster has to shrug his shoulders and say "Eh, ask me again tomorrow".

That having been said, at the end of the day the prepared caster has more options and, given enough time and investment of resources ( scrolls, pearls of power, etc ), can do much of the same the spontaneous caster does. It's a struggle to prepare the correct spells, though, often multiple times per game session if the pace of the game is fast.


Kittenological wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:
You could always take the sorcerer or oracle spells per day and spells known tables and apply them to the druid class, utilizing the druid spell list. That's what I would do. I prefer spontaneous casters overall. If I were to play a magus, I'd take the spells per day and spells known tables from the...
Would that be balanced though? I think it'd be on the weaker side of things if anything and my DM isn't quite so hot about it either.

Everything is always GM approval, my GMs have let me do this in the past.so I've never had a problem in that area. As far as balance I've seen no problems, especially since imo spontaneous casters are better, and more fun to play. Just increase the level you get your domain spells by 1 and use the druid spell list and it should be fine. Like I said I've never had balance as an issue when using this option. Not sure why it would be or that your GM would disapprove since most people think prepared casters are better. Its really not that big of a change when you think about it.


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magnuskn wrote:
That having been said, at the end of the day the prepared caster has more options and, given enough time and investment of resources ( scrolls, pearls of power, etc ), can do much of the same the spontaneous caster does. It's a struggle to prepare the correct spells, though, often multiple times per game session if the pace of the game is fast.

The extent to which prepared casters can actually do this is fairly limited. Pearls of Power are often touted as a big solution but they get very expensive very fast. A level 5 Wizard wanting a single extra level 3 spell slot is paying 90% of his WBL for it, 45% if he crafts it himself.

Scrolls certainly help but only to a limited extent. They are reasonably cheap until you start trying to craft them at your actual caster level rather than minimum and even then their DC's are based on the minimum score. Scrolls are great for utility and combat spells that dont care about DC's or caster level but terrible for anything else.

And that is really where the big difference between the two types of caster comes in. Sorcerers have to carefully chose the spells they will have access to over their whole career. If they choose well, picking spells with general application, then they will be able to keep going encounter after encounter while the Wizard will be cursing having used his slow during the first encounter and now he is stuck with stinking cloud against the giants he is fighting.

However, on a day by day basis where the party is able to effectively use stealth, scouting and divination prepared casters will be in a stronger position to tailor their spell lists to the particular circumstances.

Personally I still prefer spontaneous casters but both very much have their strengths and weaknesses. As with any caster however those weaknesses fade as they get to higher levels.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
andreww wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
That having been said, at the end of the day the prepared caster has more options and, given enough time and investment of resources ( scrolls, pearls of power, etc ), can do much of the same the spontaneous caster does. It's a struggle to prepare the correct spells, though, often multiple times per game session if the pace of the game is fast.

The extent to which prepared casters can actually do this is fairly limited. Pearls of Power are often touted as a big solution but they get very expensive very fast. A level 5 Wizard wanting a single extra level 3 spell slot is paying 90% of his WBL for it, 45% if he crafts it himself.

Scrolls certainly help but only to a limited extent. They are reasonably cheap until you start trying to craft them at your actual caster level rather than minimum and even then their DC's are based on the minimum score. Scrolls are great for utility and combat spells that dont care about DC's or caster level but terrible for anything else.

And that is really where the big difference between the two types of caster comes in. Sorcerers have to carefully chose the spells they will have access to over their whole career. If they choose well, picking spells with general application, then they will be able to keep going encounter after encounter while the Wizard will be cursing having used his slow during the first encounter and now he is stuck with stinking cloud against the giants he is fighting.

However, on a day by day basis where the party is able to effectively use stealth, scouting and divination prepared casters will be in a stronger position to tailor their spell lists to the particular circumstances.

Personally I still prefer spontaneous casters but both very much have their strengths and weaknesses. As with any caster however those weaknesses fade as they get to higher levels.

You really only need to craft Pearls of Power until level three. 4.500 GP are not casually spent, of course, but you get the best utility spells if you go only until that level, IMO.

And you preferably don't scribe scrolls which even allow DC's, scrolls are for those spells you either might need very seldomly (but then you need them just right now) or very often. Haste at fifth caster level may seem like too short as a duration, but then most combats after level ten are over in three rounds maximum. Wands would be a bit more effective, but you don't get Craft Wands as a free feat, either.


Aelryinth wrote:
I’m going to use the Generalist table because of the off-school cost…if you want to claim versatility, you must claim all schools, and if you memorize an off-school spell, you’re not any better then a generalist.

Bringing up the old stacked in the sorc's favor comparison table again are we :)

"Human FC" Sorc vs "Generalist" Wizard is hardly a fair comparison on spell slots.

I also reject the premise: "if you want to claim versatility, you must claim all schools"

I think you also underestimate the value of getting those higher level slots a level earlier. Go ahead and spam resist energy for the party, The wizard can just pop out a single communal version.


Aelryinth wrote:

Couple points for sorcs: First, this feat.

Versatile Spontaneity

Prerequisites: Int 13 or Wis 13 (see Special), ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level spells.
Benefit: When you regain spell slots at the start of the day, you may opt to prepare one spell you don’t know in place of a daily spell slot 1 level higher than the prepared spell’s level. To do so, you must have access to the selected spell on a scroll or in a spellbook, and the spell must be on your spell list (even if it is not one of your spells known)....

I mentioned this in another thread, but this feat is underwhelming to me.

1) It uses up a scroll
2) A sorc with a spellbook.. eww.
3) It uses a higher spell slot.
4) You MUST do this when you regain slots.. (You'll have to anticipate it's need before-hand)
5) Strict RAW reading says you can prepare ONE spell, So you may get some kickback from people if you try to memorize more than one spell per day.
6) A 13 INT requirement.

*Edit - forgot #6

Shadow Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
a high diplomacy, high intimidate, as well as opposed cha checks. all very useful for anyone charming things.
So nothing that actually makes the sorcerers enchantments better then.

ah but you're absolutely incorrect in assuming that diplomacy has no value in charming people. if you cast a spell, your target and everyone in the area knows you cast that spell, by raw. they get a spell craft to know what you are casting, but they do know you're casting something regardless.

now in a real situation where you need to talk down a target from hostile, using diplomacy prior to casting charm person can let you prevent the AOO by role-playing the event, mind you i never said the enemy had the intention to attack us. now a wizard would have to burn feats traits or have a much much lower diplomacy score, in order to have a similar check as a half elf sorcerer

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Removed a couple posts. Keep the personal sniping out of the conversation, please.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Justin Rocket wrote:
I actually think Bloodlines are the worst part of Sorcerers. Your ancestor was a plant? Or a corpse?

Did you read the class ability descriptions?

Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests in a number of ways as the sorcerer gains levels. A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

A sorcerer could have obtained plant powers from having been raised in an enchanted forest, or from necromancer parents who experimented on their child in the hopes of giving him the immortality they couldn't bestow upon themselves.

"Bloodline" is just a name. It doesn't necessarily literally mean you are related to a dragon or plant or corpse (though it could).


My issues with spont casters

1) For levels 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17 which is 8 of 20 levels or 40% of the total game or 50% of PFS spont casters are straight up worse. Without question.

2) At level 1 a wizard and sorcerer are largely equal in spells castable each day while int is substantially better as a casting stat than cha outside of PFS in PFS diplomacy is more powerful helping to balance INT being an overall better stat (Bumping skills). It's largely a preference at 1. level 2 The sorc has the same as a wizard in terms of overall progression.

3) Level 3 is the first difference in spell power which wildly favors the wizard. Level 4 the sorc has more first level magic ONLY. This is true until you hit cap on each spell level where the sorcerer caps at 1 spell more per spell level and equal for the top level spell. At 20th the sorcerer has 1 more 1st-8th level spell. That's it. In exchange for being substantially worse for 40-50% of the game you gain marginal benefits at much higher levels.

4) Prepared casting is more powerful in any setting where the party changes with any regularity or if people miss often or semi often. Being able to tailor your list to who is there is more powerful.

That's my problems with spont casters.

NOTE: The summoner isn't a spont caster for the purposes of this conversation. It's an absurdity written by someone who may or may not have been high at the time.


Ravingdork wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
I actually think Bloodlines are the worst part of Sorcerers. Your ancestor was a plant? Or a corpse?

Did you read the class ability descriptions?

Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests in a number of ways as the sorcerer gains levels. A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

A sorcerer could have obtained plant powers from having been raised in an enchanted forest, or from necromancer parents who experimented on their child in the hopes of giving him the immortality they couldn't bestow upon themselves.

"Bloodline" is just a name. It doesn't necessarily literally mean you are related to a dragon or plant or corpse (though it could).

That's a big problem. Here, I'm going to give you a million bucks. Only, "a million bucks" actually means "an ice cream cone" and "give you" actually means "take from you". Confusing? Its a mistake. If they didn't intend for "bloodline" to mean "bloodline", they should have used another word.


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Justin Rocket wrote:


That's a big problem. Here, I'm going to give you a million bucks. Only, "a million bucks" actually means "an ice cream cone" and "give you" actually means "take from you". Confusing? Its a mistake. If they didn't intend for "bloodline" to mean "bloodline", they should have used another word.

F++@ing HUGE problem bro, they should totally change this word that has ABSOLUTELY ZERO BEARING ON HOW THE GAME WORKS immediately instead of focusing on trivial problems like actual balance issues and abilities that are unclear as to how they work.

Spoiler:
/sarcasm

In case that was too confusing for you too.


Rynjin wrote:


F@~!ing HUGE problem bro, they should totally change this word that has ABSOLUTELY ZERO BEARING ON HOW THE GAME WORKS immediately instead of focusing on trivial problems like actual balance issues and abilities that are unclear as to how they work.

** spoiler omitted **

Of course it has bearing on how the game works; not mechanically, but as a metanarrative certainly.


What if the event effected your blood and the potential of your descendants?


Marthkus wrote:
What if the event effected your blood and the potential of your descendants?

Do all Sorcerers fit that description? Do all Sorcerers have bloodlines?


Not all sorcerers reproduce. So we can't know for sure.


Justin Rocket wrote:


Of course it has bearing on how the game works; not mechanically, but as a metanarrative certainly.

Except it doesn't.

Because of that paragraph.

You know, the one you quoted that explains what they mean by Bloodline.

Not every name is perfectly descriptive. Hence why a specific monster is called a Dragon, not a "Giant Lizard Which Doth Breathe a Variety of Deadly Elements and Fly Upon Leathery Wings, Which Is Known For Its Vast Amount of Treasure, Great intelligence, and Power". That's what the description is for.

This is the fundamentals of any language. Words have definitions.

The definition of Bloodline (a specific noun referring to a Sorcerer class feature) is: "a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. "

There is no issue. At all. By any stretch of the imagination.


Rynjin wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:


Of course it has bearing on how the game works; not mechanically, but as a metanarrative certainly.

Except it doesn't.

Because of that paragraph.

You know, the one you quoted that explains what they mean by Bloodline.

Not every name is perfectly descriptive. Hence why a specific monster is called a Dragon, not a "Giant Lizard Which Doth Breathe a Variety of Deadly Elements and Fly Upon Leathery Wings, Which Is Known For Its Vast Amount of Treasure, Great intelligence, and Power". That's what the description is for.

This is the fundamentals of any language. Words have definitions.

The definition of Bloodline (a specific noun referring to a Sorcerer class feature) is: "a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. "

There is no issue. At all. By any stretch of the imagination.

or in some cases, it can represent being born near a planar rift or under an unusual planetary alignment as well.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Dr Grecko wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
I’m going to use the Generalist table because of the off-school cost…if you want to claim versatility, you must claim all schools, and if you memorize an off-school spell, you’re not any better then a generalist.

Bringing up the old stacked in the sorc's favor comparison table again are we :)

"Human FC" Sorc vs "Generalist" Wizard is hardly a fair comparison on spell slots.

I also reject the premise: "if you want to claim versatility, you must claim all schools"

I think you also underestimate the value of getting those higher level slots a level earlier. Go ahead and spam resist energy for the party, The wizard can just pop out a single communal version.

And you'll have blown a high level spell, and I'll have blown a few low level slots, to basically the same effect. I do have the slots to spare for low level spells, i.e. you're making me use a resource I have plenty of.

And you have to have that spell MEMORIZED, or in your spellbook with your arcane bond willing to shuffle it out for you. I have my slots available all the time. If it gets dispelled on one of the people, guess what? I can put it right back up...even using higher level slots if I have to.

I would also like to point out, that if a Spon caster has a spellbook, they can now pull the 1/day 'any spell I need' trick using their bonded item, no?

==Aelryinth


Personally, I prefer whichever one strikes my fancy for my character concept. Though, lately, I'm too stressed to deal with the 'what Mystra-blasted spells am I going to prep today?' factor.

If I'm looking for something thematic based on the bloodline or mystery (like my amnesiac gray kobold sorcerer that thinks it's from the future and thus the ultimate epitome of dragon evolution), or something with a more specialized casting list, I'll take spontaneous. I'll also go for this if I'm in the mood for one of those characters that just happens upon the magic, as it were. Daemon-bloodline tiefling born to a daemon-worshipping cult in Cheliax for example, or the poor elven noble that winds up awakening a dual-blooded Pestilence/Envenomed and is thus very much hated by the local community.

On the other hand, if I'm in the mood for the more bookish type, I'll take prep casters. Of course, I'd only ever play Oracle or Inquisitor for divine casters, so my 'prep' casters are always arcane. My Scroll Scholar/Scroll Master wizard is a particular favorite of mine, the poor librarian that gets dragged along on the adventure that I have yet to be able to play (he just sounds fun). I also one day hope to find a group willing to let me play a MALE winter-witch, I've got a very nice background set up for him...

In any case, it all depends on what character I'm in the mood for at the start of the game, and what would fit in with the campaign. As a general rule, I'm a bit more of a fan of spontaneous casters because there's a bit more background I can squeeze out of them than with most prep casters I come up with lately. That's liable to change in the future though, lol.


Specialists are what the majority of wizards tend to be. usually for the bonus spell slot per level, which somehow outweighs any school power, even the Universalist's ability to provide spontaneous free metamagic on the fly.

Conjuration Specialist; i get an extra spell per level, i also get 3+int get out of grapple free cards for free per day

Divination Specialist; i get an extra spell per level, i also get the awesome game winning power of going first whenever the hell i please

Evocation Specialist; if i dip 1 level of crossblooded sorcerer, i can deal nasty damage with 1 damage type. or i can be a dazing fireball spammer. i however, am the weakest specialty school. i get an extra spell per level

Transmutation Specialist; i get a free bonus to either Dex or Con, allowing me to save belt money, by using a cheaper belt, i can get an extra spell per level

Necromancy specialist; what do i get? an extra spell per level, and the ability to use a gimped version of a charisma based cleric power fewer times per day with a lower DC

Enchantment specialist; i get an extra spell per level, and a bonus to a few cross class social skills with my lousy charisma

Abjuration Specialist; yay, i get energy resistance. useless because i can just use a spell to get that. at least i get an extra spell per level

Illusion Specialist. i get an extra spell per level, but i can cloud an enemy's vision a limited number of times per day

Universalist; i don't get any extra spells, but i possess equal access to all schools, and at 8th level, i can apply free metamagic on the fly a handful of times per day. i could have just crafted rods, because to use this power, i have to waste feats on corner case metamagic feats i would usually use a rod for.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

Specialists are what the majority of wizards tend to be. usually for the bonus spell slot per level, which somehow outweighs any school power, even the Universalist's ability to provide spontaneous free metamagic on the fly.

Conjuration Specialist; i get an extra spell per level, i also get 3+int get out of grapple free cards for free per day

Divination Specialist; i get an extra spell per level, i also get the awesome game winning power of going first whenever the hell i please

Evocation Specialist; if i dip 1 level of crossblooded sorcerer, i can deal nasty damage with 1 damage type. or i can be a dazing fireball spammer. i however, am the weakest specialty school. i get an extra spell per level

Transmutation Specialist; i get a free bonus to either Dex or Con, allowing me to save belt money, by using a cheaper belt, i can get an extra spell per level

Necromancy specialist; what do i get? an extra spell per level, and the ability to use a gimped version of a charisma based cleric power fewer times per day with a lower DC

Enchantment specialist; i get an extra spell per level, and a bonus to a few cross class social skills with my lousy charisma

Abjuration Specialist; yay, i get energy resistance. useless because i can just use a spell to get that. at least i get an extra spell per level

Illusion Specialist. i get an extra spell per level, but i can cloud an enemy's vision a limited number of times per day

Universalist; i don't get any extra spells, but i possess equal access to all schools, and at 8th level, i can apply free metamagic on the fly a handful of times per day. i could have just crafted rods, because to use this power, i have to waste feats on corner case metamagic feats i would usually use a rod for.

The most powerful are conjuration which essentially becomes immunity to grapple and divination which is beyond absurdly overpowered to the point of comedy at higher levels and which at 20th turns you into auto win on initiative and you can't be surprised. This means you automatically win most encounters in round 1 since you're a wizard.


Undone wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

Specialists are what the majority of wizards tend to be. usually for the bonus spell slot per level, which somehow outweighs any school power, even the Universalist's ability to provide spontaneous free metamagic on the fly.

Conjuration Specialist; i get an extra spell per level, i also get 3+int get out of grapple free cards for free per day

Divination Specialist; i get an extra spell per level, i also get the awesome game winning power of going first whenever the hell i please

Evocation Specialist; if i dip 1 level of crossblooded sorcerer, i can deal nasty damage with 1 damage type. or i can be a dazing fireball spammer. i however, am the weakest specialty school. i get an extra spell per level

Transmutation Specialist; i get a free bonus to either Dex or Con, allowing me to save belt money, by using a cheaper belt, i can get an extra spell per level

Necromancy specialist; what do i get? an extra spell per level, and the ability to use a gimped version of a charisma based cleric power fewer times per day with a lower DC

Enchantment specialist; i get an extra spell per level, and a bonus to a few cross class social skills with my lousy charisma

Abjuration Specialist; yay, i get energy resistance. useless because i can just use a spell to get that. at least i get an extra spell per level

Illusion Specialist. i get an extra spell per level, but i can cloud an enemy's vision a limited number of times per day

Universalist; i don't get any extra spells, but i possess equal access to all schools, and at 8th level, i can apply free metamagic on the fly a handful of times per day. i could have just crafted rods, because to use this power, i have to waste feats on corner case metamagic feats i would usually use a rod for.

The most powerful are conjuration which essentially becomes immunity to grapple and divination which is beyond absurdly overpowered to the point of comedy at higher levels and which at 20th turns you into auto win on initiative and...

immediate action get out of grapple free card that ends your entire turn unless you spend a feat.

only usable 3+int times per day

yeah, you can waste your turn negating a grapple like 13 times per day at level 20. not really immunity. you have to blow a feat at 7th level to continue acting normally after doing so.

a swift action that autofinishes your turn is no different from a full round action where you don't get a swift action.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Undone wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

Specialists are what the majority of wizards tend to be. usually for the bonus spell slot per level, which somehow outweighs any school power, even the Universalist's ability to provide spontaneous free metamagic on the fly.

Conjuration Specialist; i get an extra spell per level, i also get 3+int get out of grapple free cards for free per day

Divination Specialist; i get an extra spell per level, i also get the awesome game winning power of going first whenever the hell i please

Evocation Specialist; if i dip 1 level of crossblooded sorcerer, i can deal nasty damage with 1 damage type. or i can be a dazing fireball spammer. i however, am the weakest specialty school. i get an extra spell per level

Transmutation Specialist; i get a free bonus to either Dex or Con, allowing me to save belt money, by using a cheaper belt, i can get an extra spell per level

Necromancy specialist; what do i get? an extra spell per level, and the ability to use a gimped version of a charisma based cleric power fewer times per day with a lower DC

Enchantment specialist; i get an extra spell per level, and a bonus to a few cross class social skills with my lousy charisma

Abjuration Specialist; yay, i get energy resistance. useless because i can just use a spell to get that. at least i get an extra spell per level

Illusion Specialist. i get an extra spell per level, but i can cloud an enemy's vision a limited number of times per day

Universalist; i don't get any extra spells, but i possess equal access to all schools, and at 8th level, i can apply free metamagic on the fly a handful of times per day. i could have just crafted rods, because to use this power, i have to waste feats on corner case metamagic feats i would usually use a rod for.

The most powerful are conjuration which essentially becomes immunity to grapple and divination which is beyond absurdly overpowered to the point of comedy at higher levels and which at 20th turns you into
...

Dimensional agility is able to be taken at level 1 per the FAQ unless I'm misreading this. Secondly It's a feat you should probably just have anyway. A feat which reads "Ignore combat positioning. Immunity grapple." Would be comically powerful for casters anyway. Additionally I was refering to divination as the overpowered school.


even if you start with dimensional agility

if means you sacrificed aspects of surviveability elsewhere


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

even if you start with dimensional agility

if means you sacrificed aspects of surviveability elsewhere

Could that not be said for any feat for any class?


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

even if you start with dimensional agility

if means you sacrificed aspects of surviveability elsewhere

Could that not be said for any feat for any class?

yeah. but a wizard is especially fragile at 1st level

D6 hit die, lack of armor proficiency, the fact mage armor is reduced to an hour, mediocre saves, a familiar that will die just as swiftly

one hit from any power attacking martial character with at least 18 strength and a 2hander is enough to drop you in one round, and you don't even have enough spells to improve your defenses enough to be relevant, no mirror image, no blur, no invisibility, no flight.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

even if you start with dimensional agility

if means you sacrificed aspects of surviveability elsewhere

Could that not be said for any feat for any class?

yeah. but a wizard is especially fragile at 1st level

D6 hit die, lack of armor proficiency, the fact mage armor is reduced to an hour, mediocre saves, a familiar that will die just as swiftly

one hit from any power attacking martial character with at least 18 strength and a 2hander is enough to drop you in one round, and you don't even have enough spells to improve your defenses enough to be relevant, no mirror image, no blur, no invisibility, no flight.

Fair enough. That's why low level wizards carry a crossbow or bow if you're an elf.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

even if you start with dimensional agility

if means you sacrificed aspects of surviveability elsewhere

Could that not be said for any feat for any class?

yeah. but a wizard is especially fragile at 1st level

D6 hit die, lack of armor proficiency, the fact mage armor is reduced to an hour, mediocre saves, a familiar that will die just as swiftly

one hit from any power attacking martial character with at least 18 strength and a 2hander is enough to drop you in one round, and you don't even have enough spells to improve your defenses enough to be relevant, no mirror image, no blur, no invisibility, no flight.

Fair enough. That's why low level wizards carry a crossbow or bow if you're an elf.

waste a move action loading a light crossbow?

guess i better look for an elf or an outsider with an Int bonus. outsiders get all martial weapons by virtue of being outsiders.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

even if you start with dimensional agility

if means you sacrificed aspects of surviveability elsewhere

Could that not be said for any feat for any class?

yeah. but a wizard is especially fragile at 1st level

D6 hit die, lack of armor proficiency, the fact mage armor is reduced to an hour, mediocre saves, a familiar that will die just as swiftly

one hit from any power attacking martial character with at least 18 strength and a 2hander is enough to drop you in one round, and you don't even have enough spells to improve your defenses enough to be relevant, no mirror image, no blur, no invisibility, no flight.

Fair enough. That's why low level wizards carry a crossbow or bow if you're an elf.

waste a move action loading a light crossbow?

guess i better look for an elf or an outsider with an Int bonus. outsiders get all martial weapons by virtue of being outsiders.

It's not "the best" option. It's just an option. Bearing in mind we're talking about level 1.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

even if you start with dimensional agility

if means you sacrificed aspects of surviveability elsewhere

Could that not be said for any feat for any class?

yeah. but a wizard is especially fragile at 1st level

D6 hit die, lack of armor proficiency, the fact mage armor is reduced to an hour, mediocre saves, a familiar that will die just as swiftly

one hit from any power attacking martial character with at least 18 strength and a 2hander is enough to drop you in one round, and you don't even have enough spells to improve your defenses enough to be relevant, no mirror image, no blur, no invisibility, no flight.

Fair enough. That's why low level wizards carry a crossbow or bow if you're an elf.

waste a move action loading a light crossbow?

guess i better look for an elf or an outsider with an Int bonus. outsiders get all martial weapons by virtue of being outsiders.

It's not "the best" option. It's just an option. Bearing in mind we're talking about level 1.

guess it is time to spam my Acid Splash cantrip. the 1d3 won't kill anything, but it will stretch my resources for other stuff. at least i can hit Touch AC at will.

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