Well in the end boss encounter we were up against the boss, 2 tough dudes and 4 mooks that the DM had customized to be pretty damn hard too.
I used fly to close to the boss smiting him. I then smited one of the 2 tough dudes and ended up smiting 2 of the 4 others. One combat, 4 smite evil uses. The fact that I could have then continued to smite another 12 more times that day is crazy good.
The more I think about it, the less I like dipping a level of cleric.
Why? Because you're giving up a level of CoI.
Still, running the numbers... let's compare, say a Monk 3/Pal 2/CoI 5 to Monk 3/Pal 2/Cleric 1/CoI 4 -- the same build but with a level of cleric dipped.
Not an apples to apples comparison, in my opinion, for a Spirit build.
Try comparing a Paladin 2 / Monk 3 / CoI x to a Cleric 1 / Paladin 1 / Monk 3 / CoI x.
Not giving up the CoI level, as you are taking 5 levels of "other" than CoI class either way.
For the Spirit build, you really need either channel smite / guided hand or Monk (Sensei) archetype so you can use Wisdom instead of Strength. I think the Sensei archetype gives up too much.
Also, 20 point buy (my home campaign, or PFS) I would build as:
Str - 11, Dex - 13, Con 12, Int - 12, Wis - 17 (15+2), Cha - 14, and put 4th level bonus in Wis for sure, and maybe all in Wis or perhaps 1 in Dex also.
-- david
The more I think about it, the less I like dipping a level of cleric.
Why? Because you're giving up a level of CoI. That means losing a level of monk progression on AC bonus, flurry of blows, stunning fist, and unarmed strike, plus a point of BAB, plus a point of smite damage, plus a CoI special ability, plus half a ki point. You're also paying a two feat tax -- Guided Hand, and the almost worthless Channel Smite ability.
The advantage, of course, is that you make Wis your god stat and gain some relief from the relentless MADness of this PrC.
Still, running the numbers... let's compare, say a Monk 3/Pal 2/CoI 5 to Monk 3/Pal 2/Cleric 1/CoI 4 -- the same build but with a level of cleric dipped. To keep things constant, we'll say that both builds have a 12 Str and a 20 Wis. Let's also say that the cleric dip is into Crusader in order to grab Weapon Focus; that mostly cancels out the loss of BAB (though you'll still feel it when not using your favorite weapon). How otherwise do they compare?
Well, the cleric dip build gets +4 on all attack rolls. That's pretty sweet. You also get a few first level spells, of which Enlarge might occasionally be useful. And you get to channel energy and, once in a great while, do an extra d6 of damage to undead. Across the street, the straight CoI build gets two more feats; +1 damage on all smites; d10 instead of d8 on unarmed strikes; another +1 deflection bonus on AC; one more flurry attack; an extra ki point; +1 to the save DC on Stunning Fist; and the Shield the Weak ability. Oh, and this build gets +1 on all three saves as opposed to +2 on Will only -- close to a wash, though I'd say the +1 is better because your Will save is already going to be off the scale.
I won't say the dip is a bad or wrong choice. I will say, the more I look at it, the less compelling it appears.
Doug M.
The one level dip in cleric is for 3 things:
1. Guided hand for the wis to hit without giving up flurry
2. Channel energy pool (useless against undead) that convert to ki points via the bronze gong. Basically double your ki points. (and remember your ki points also power your lay on hands. Who needs wholeness of body, I can heal as a swift action for just as much!)
3. WF (unarmed strike)
1 level of CoI is worth giving up for these three things. Even just for the channel energy pool alone.
prototype00
prototype00;
Can you explain to me how the Bronze Gong works? From the description, I do not understand.
-- david
So all channel foci (of which the bronze gong is one) work the same way, you put a use of channel energy in, you get an effect other than the usual heal 1d6/deal 1d6 damage out. This ability is only limited by your daily uses of channel energy.
For the bronze gong, you put in a channel energy use, you get out a ki point. It takes a standard action to use, so I wouldn't do it in combat, but out of combat, you can basically refill your ki pool to its theoretical maximum (until you run out of channel energy uses).
It basically turns your channel energy into your second ki pool, which you can then turn into smite evil uses or lay on hands, or heck, use it for an extra attack just like the rest of the regular monks.
prototype00
Actually, Doug, that was what I was thinking also.
-- david
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Yeah, the gong is powerful. But unless you are a CoI (or happen to have a high charsima as a normal monk), you don't get nearly as much out of it. I think I have like 1, maybe 2 monks, other than the CoI's, that have more than a 7 charisma. One level of cleric dip would net them 1 ki pool point, while losing out on a level of cool monk stuff. It is only OP for a CoI. It just happens to be very OP for a CoI.
As to a cleric level not being worth it, I actually think the 2nd paladin level can wait. YMMV, but divine grace, even with all its awesomeness, can wait until higher levels when you have a +4/+6 HB of wis/cha, as can the Lay on Hands. For cleric you get Enlarge Person domain spell, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) with one common archetype, Enlarge Person as a swift action as another archetype, and wisdom to hit with unarmed strikes. And when you are either done with the class, or are ready to wait on the next power you would be getting, you can just go back to paladin for a level and get Lay on Hands, and Divine Grace a bit later.
But, thinking about it, I don't think I'd let this IMC. YMMV, but it seems both unbalanced and unbalancing. And, come on. The CoI can be perfectly powerful without it. In fact, it's already one of the most powerful PrCs Paizo has allowed. It's on the count-on-the-fingers-of-one-hand list of PrCs that are fully as powerful as core classes, if not a bit more. Adding this into the mix seems like overkill.
Doug M.
You do whatever seems fair to you at your table. For my part, I can only work with what has been provided in the rules as written.
On the subject of power, I doubt most people are in this thread to see a "better than average" CoI, but rather the best CoI that can be created using rules from Paizo, which I humbly submit, I have made a decent run at.
Now the really important question.
Why is the NPC introducing this guide, who presumably is a Champion herself, wearing plate armor?
Those are obviously her Bracers of the Avenging Knight :P
prototype00
Hmm, considering the latest FAQ on Sohei flurrying in light armor, and considering that they can wield martial weapons (santetsukon 1d10/19-20 x2 is the obvious choice here), they make probably the best body/weapon style builds at the moment.
You probably can drop wis and concentrate on Cha, so they are basically like a traditional paladin, only with flurry.
Hmm, tiger style/power attack seems clutch here.
The only problem is that all your Monk Bonus feats are wasted (mounted combat is absolutely useless for CoIs)
prototype00
Is this on the Guide to the Class Guides?
Should be under the PrC section.
prototype00
I am having one hell of a hard time getting a functional spirit build. It would be easy assuming we started at level 5, but it's difficult to make something that could at level 1. I'm assuming COI entry at level 6 or 7. Here are my proposals:
Getting wis to hit as fast as possible:
Of course, here you need human, and start as crusader:
Crusader: (you've got to wear armor to survive here)
1 Channel Smite, Guided Hand, Weapon focus (unarmed strikes)
Paladin (to give some decent bab)
2
3
Monk (to finish the prereqs) (this is where you stop wearing armor)
4
5
6
COI
Any other advice on getting the spirit build to work from level 1? Except on the highest point-buy, you cant really afford to have more than +1 to strength (if you want to maximize wis & cha while having decent HP), thus you'll be useless in melee, and of very limited use elsewhere. Any advice?
Hmm, considering the latest FAQ on Sohei flurrying in light armor, and considering that they can wield martial weapons (santetsukon 1d10/19-20 x2 is the obvious choice here), they make probably the best body/weapon style builds at the moment.
You probably can drop wis and concentrate on Cha, so they are basically like a traditional paladin, only with flurry.
Hmm, tiger style/power attack seems clutch here.
The only problem is that all your Monk Bonus feats are wasted (mounted combat is absolutely useless for CoIs)
prototype00
Did the FAQ say that Sohei replaces the normal bonus feats? I thought the intent was that they ADD to them.
In any case, assuming the latter interpretation, I like to combine Sohei with MoMS. It wouldn't work in PFS, but in any home game, the DM is unlikely to go along with the bs argument that "adding new options counts as changing the class feature, gah hyuk!" and rule they can't combine.
At the beginning, only take one level of paladin to shift entry to 6th level (1 Clr/ 1 Paladin / 3 Mnk). Play like a cleric (heavy armor, support) for the initial levels, use good weapons until you enter CoI (reach weapon would be good here since you have both close up and distance options).
No hurry to get guided hand as 1d6 damage initially isn't all that great.
So you can start Aasimar with slightly higher str?
Prototype00
Did the FAQ say that Sohei replaces the normal bonus feats? I thought the intent was that they ADD to them.
The wording did not seem that permissive, but I might be mistaken. Anyone else want to weigh in?
prototype00
I realize that it doesn't work by "strict RAW," because paizo chose to use the moronic, overly broad "alters" instead of something like "replaces" when describing archetype class feature compatibility.
But IME, absolutely zero home games play by 100% rigid strict RAW, even when the DM claims he does. Because strict RAW leads to all kinds of stupidity, like the things that dying *doesn't* restrict you from, how temporary ability bonuses work, etc...
Heck, it's a problem in D&D 3E (but I don't think PF fixed it) whereby strict RAW, because all the means to ignore concealment tend to speak to ignoring the miss % aspect of it (which is what concealment and total concealment are defined as, btw), by strict RAW a rogue is largely screwed against Obscuring Mist forever and always. As things you would expect to help, like Improved Precise Shot or the Seeking weapon property, don't actually negate "concealment", but the "miss chance of concealment." So, the enemy is technically still "concealed," even if it's for 0% and has no mechanical effect of its own anymore other than not playing nice with things foiled by the foe having concealment.
EDIT: Another recent example of strict RAW in action.
The main thing is I don't want to suggest something, and then have it shot down by a DM later. I'd rather that the advice I give be pretty watertight and as little dependent on DM fiat (except that the DMs follow the rules as written, that is) as possible.
But hey, if DMs are permissible at the tables you are playing at, let the dice fly!
prototype00
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I think you really need to rethink that attitude.
That's a bit of a presumptuous statement to make, isn't it? I haven't had the pleasure of having you as a DM or a player, and I think the same can be said, vice versa.
DM's aren't bound by some kind of law or police force to run a game as per Mose's stone bound tablets. DM and Player relations are a form of give and take. IF a DM has a problem with what you want, ask WHY. You may find that the both of you can find a middle ground that leaves you both happy. Your best chances are generally by avoiding corner interpretations of text when possible. RAW isn't a perfect fit in all situations, and there will be times when I as a DM will set aside or modify RAW, when I think it's for the good of my campaign to do so.
As I previously stated, whatever seems fair to you at your table, will be what goes.
But since you seem like you want to correct my mindset, let me at least lay it out for your benefit.
I like the RAW. As a DM, I like players thinking of me as someone who isn't capricious, and who won't shoot down their builds just because I happened not to like the amount of damage they were putting out one session, or they happened to kill my NPC too quickly for my preference. I like them knowing that I will adapt to challenge them, as the wide ruleset allows.
As a player, I like knowing that if I find a clever way to make an effective character (in one faculty, of course, no character can be skilled in everything, a fact that most DMs should reflect on, before automatically declaring a build verboten), the DM will respect both the effort I put in and the ingenuity I displayed, and instead of having a gut reaction, work with me to integrate well into the party and the story.
In short, I like rules. I admit, some of them are misguided or mistaken, but I trust in the Paizo devs to fix those in either the long or short term.
In other words, nice to meet you Neutral, my name is Lawful.
prototype00
I also like the RAW. I like it a lot. As in, I regularly roll my eyes and allow stuff I think is dopey because it's RAW. RAW gives us an agreed-on set of rules for the game! That's hugely important.
And once in a while, once in a very great while, that means manning up and changing it when something is obviously not right.
Not that I am unconvinced by you, but your first reaction to the bronze gong giving 6 extra ki points/day was to ban it.
So was that a "once in a very great while" kind of thing? If so, it seems that where we draw the line is quite different.
prototype00
So you would consider having a couple of extra ki points around (that could, as you say, be used for smiting, but will more than likely be used for self/party healing seeing as how as this is a frontline character that doesn't wear armor, and the CoI does not progress number of lay on hands) as something beyond even the pale of a serious powergamer, with access to the like of summoners and druids?
Well and good, at least I know where you are coming from.
prototype00
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9rag
Monk, Sohei: Can a sohei use flurry of blows while wearing light armor?
Yes (but not medium or heavy armor). However, a sohei does not gain his monk AC bonus class feature when wearing armor.
The next printing of Ultimate Combat will be changed to reflect this ruling.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 10/23/13
How do you think this will change your advice on the Coi builds that use Sohei.
Did the FAQ say that Sohei replaces the normal bonus feats? I thought the intent was that they ADD to them.The wording did not seem that permissive, but I might be mistaken. Anyone else want to weigh in?
prototype00
Since it doesn't say it "replaces" or "alters" it is kinda up in the air. For what its worth, I always read it as adding mounted combat feats to the list of bonus feats you can choose. Not that you can only choose mounted combat feats with your bonus feats.
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Greetings fellow scholars. Amidst my various journey and research I have come across what could potentially be great secret technique available to the CoI. Please tell me if this glorious thing is possible!
Step 1. Chose to follow the path of the Master of Many Styles. While others may seek to overwhelm their opponents with sheer number of blows you need not do so, for one strike is all you will need to sunder your foes!
Step 2. Fulfill your basic training and gain competence in Dragon Style and Tiger style. thanks to your choice to follow the way of the MoMS you will be able to use them simultaneously here is the break down of the feat choice
MoMS Feats: Tiger Style, Tiger Claws
Normal Feats: Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity
Under Normal Circumstances, without being a CoI here is what this combo would allow you:
Dragon Style allows you to add 1/2 of your Str bonus to your first Attack each round while Dragon Ferocity adds 1/2 to all of your unarmed strikes, meaning your first strike uses x2 your Str Bonus
Tiger Claws allows you to use both of your fists As A Single Attack to perform two massive hits against your foes as a full attack action AT YOUR HIGHEST BAB.
THe two combined means that you get two attacks at your highest BAB using 2x your Str Bonus that can be used in conjunction with Power Attack to make it x2.5. and then bullrush them
Step 3 or How CoI fits in with it!: Remember what you get at CoI 8? One Finger! meaning you can now make all of that pain from the previous Combo all a TOUCH ATTACK! Meaning that big ol' Antipaladin will be nothing but shredded meat behind his plate-armor.
Step Extra/Icing on the cake. Wen you strike back against a foe using Perfect Opening they are now shaken for 1d4+Str rounds and take bleed for 1d4 rounds. Combine that with Combat Reflexes and then it all stacks!! or perhaps you get Real Lucky and score Crits on your once-per-round double attack? You get the idea.
Is it gamebreaking and incredibly efficient...maybe not. Is it flashy and flavorful? Hells Yes!!
...so, opinions?
Not that I want to discourage people finding cool combos for the CoI, but using Tiger Claws is a full round action and using One Finger is a standard action. Slightly incompatible.
prototype00
Why would I want to delete your post? Post more if you find anything else! I'll add it to the guide if it works!
prototype00
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.....thanks man, i feel flattered.
Well, Disregarding the the whole "One Finger Fiasco" There is still some validity in my old stratagem. While it may not have the defence capabilities of your Crane Wing strategy, for a Body class CoI it would allow for some decent damage thanks to to your perfect opening attack plus when combined with combat reflexes you could be stacking Bleed and Shaken rounds against your opponant, allowing you to both deal heavy damage and debuff, allowing for the rest of your party to lay the smack down.
Further if you due the base method of combat without the "one finger" problem you could be dealing momentous amounts of damage, combined with both smite and power attack, meaning your claws will reduce squishier foes to a fine red mist.
Disregarding the Tiger Claws and using one finger with the rest of the gambit would still result in a good amount of damage especially against heavily armored foes.
One thing I did notice when you where talking about races was that you forgot to mention that one Racial Feat that allows Aasimar to treat thier unarmed strikes as cold iron and grants natural armor. I know the feat progression for it may be a tad annoying but I just wanted to throw it out.
Truth be told im not good at making combos. The whole reason why I've been obsessing over the CoI is mainly because its the closest thing that will allow me to make this one PC that has been floating in my noggin for years now.
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Nice guide, prototype. It's funny...I started a CoI in early 2013, and I have been enjoying it ever since. I didn't even think about searching for a guide until today (slow Sunday and all), and of course, I didn't see it listed on the Sticky 'Guide to the Guides'. Many of the things I had dug out on my own are already in your guide (Osyluth's Guile, spending channels to recharge your Ki, etc.). I spotted a couple of things that you might consider.
1. The Trait "Honored Fist of the Society" - +1 Ki. That's an extra smite at higher levels!
2. Bracers of the Avenging Knight - They add +4 levels to any class that can smite. Paladin smites evil. CoI smites chaos. They both go up by 4, and then get added together to figure the damage for EITHER smite evil or chaos. That's a net +8 to damage.
3. I think you underplayed the importance of the additional limitation of the CoI code of conduct. I've been RPing the code from level 1, and I've run into a number of problems, if you're being honest. Your employer wants to lend you horses to go from point A to point B? Nope...you'll have to buy your horse. Lending that wand of mage armor to your ally for a buff? Well, by the letter of the code...not really. Does the local wizard's guild need to lend you a rings of water breathing for an underwater adventure. Oh, no...
4. The divine hunter archetype is not a bad option for a CoI who is dumping Str. Use a crossbow, and the Str dump is not as big of a deal. Of course, it impacts you taking Hospitaler.
My halfling CoI is only up to level 7 at this point (playing him off and on in PFS). However, I've been having a lot of fun with him. I dumped his Str, and waited for the amulet of mighty fists to get Agile - it was a little tough for those first few levels, but I had a crossbow (I considered divine hunter, but passed on it in favor of the better channel ability later on). I could run up to foes using scorpion style and stunning fist to slow down the bad guy a bit, if needed (retrained scorpion style into Deflect Arrows later on). Even with the 5 Str and no amulet, I still feel like I contributed.
Of course, now at 7th level, it's pretty crazy.
In any case...good job.
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Also, I am pretty sure that the CoI cannot benefit from a Bronze Gong RAW.Wanna bet?
I just self deleted when I posted after check Archives of Nethys. Thats what I get for trusting d20pfsrd. Problem is I can't get to AoN at work.
Crane Style is still useful for mitigating fighting defensively penalties (osyluth guile requires it). With this character's AC, it really isn't strictly necessary to negate attacks. Crane Riposte however might go.
prototype00
I was pondering how to best build a Sohei CoI. I was thinking of going Sohei 3/Paladin 2/COI 7. This would be for PFS and most likely using Angelkin Aasimar for the bumps to STR and CHA. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good point distribution however as you can't really dump anything.
STR 17 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 12 CHA 14 is the best I've been able to come up with as I can't really dump INT or WIS at all and for a primary martial CON less than 14 seems dangerous considering the DoI d8 hit die and lack of FCB.
As this is for PFS the Weapon Style trait would open up flurryable Reach weapons in the double chained Kama or the Kusarigama.
However I also like the idea of using the santsetsukon in combination with Crane Style or relying on unarmed strikes with brawling armor.
Any ideas?
How do you feel about (not that there will be many with only 3 levels) all of your bonus feats being mounted combat ones?
prototype00
How do you feel about (not that there will be many with only 3 levels) all of your bonus feats being mounted combat ones?
prototype00
I've never read it that way. Is it the official PFS verdict.
I don't know as I don't play PFS, but in the text:
Bonus Feats
A sohei may select Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats.
It doesn't say anything about having any other bonus feats apart from Mounted Combat ones. (And it replaces the Bonus Feats ability of the monk)
I would ask on the PFS boards.
prototype00
The wording is crappy but that applies to the entire archetype. Also usually when such changes are meant to exclude previous lists it will state: this replaces the regular selection of bonus feats.
I just checked the PFS boards. Only thing I found was a discussion about MoMs+Sohei where people agreed that Sohei added to the list of monk feats.