FAQs about SLAs, and the impact on Prestige Classes

[andreww]

Jiggy wrote:

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Am I incorrect in thinking that bloodline and mystery bonus spells would still be acquired?

I could be wrong, but it looks to me like "Spells" and "Bloodline"/"Mystery" are two separate class features, and the bonus spells you refer to are in one while the PrC advances the other.

But that's just my first thought. I'll look more into it later (unless someone else provides the answer first).

I think you are right and, while obviously not a rules source, Herolab agrees with you.

I do think Clerics get higher level Domain spell slots but do they gain access to higher level Domain spells or are they filling those slots with lower level spells?

[Mergy]

That does certainly take the punch out of an eldritch knight or mystic theurge that makes use of sorcerer or oracle levels. I'll stick with cleric/wizard myself.

[Joe M.]

Request for a quick clarification of the "arcane or divine" FAQ: SLA FAQ Clarification Request: Arcane / Divine

Please hop over there and click the FAQ flag!

[Curaigh]

With some alternate racial traits elves & gnomes can qualify for dragon disciple without level dipping into a casting class. I'm not sure its worth it, but a d12HD, bonuses to strength, constitution and natural armor should make any melee character happy enough to ignore the spells anyway.

sneak attack:

breath weapon*

or

sneakattack:

bite!

*yeah I know it is not an attack, but it is fun to think about. :)

[Bigdaddyjug]

The only thing up in the air is which curse to saddle myself with. Not being able to wear armor takes a lot of the shine off of lame curse. AC won't suffer, though, because I'll have more than enough low level slots to always have mage armor and shield up on myself. And as a muse-touched aasimar, 16 Dex and 19 Cha at level 1 should be easy to get to. I would consider blackened curse to add burning hands to my spell list for free, but I don't know if the -4 on weapon attacks also applies to ray spells.

[SCPRedMage]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I don't see the benefit of a 2nd level of sorcerer in the spontaneous only MT. However, I will definitely try out arcane sorcerer 1/wood oracle 1/mystic theurge 10.

MT requires three ranks each in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion), meaning you need to have three levels, total, before you can qualify for it. Essentially, the extra sorcerer level is there to meet the skill requirements.

Now, you COULD switch the third level over to Oracle, which would (slightly) accelerate your curse's improvement, but you can't take MT levels until fourth.

[andreww]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I would consider blackened curse to add burning hands to my spell list for free, but I don't know if the -4 on weapon attacks also applies to ray spells.

I am sure I have read something which suggested that the intent was that it wouldn't apply to ray spells but that the strict wording means that it would. Possible case of table variation.

Having said that how many rays will you be using? You get Scorching Ray for free but after that? Maybe Enervation? They are tricky to use because even if you don't take the penalty you will often be facing a -8 from soft cover and shooting into melee.

[Mergy]

Does an SLA count as spontaneous casting for the purpose of dragon disciple? If so, an eldritch knight disciple with wizard base becomes an option. -

[Bigdaddyjug]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I don't see the benefit of a 2nd level of sorcerer in the spontaneous only MT. However, I will definitely try out arcane sorcerer 1/wood oracle 1/mystic theurge 10.

MT requires three ranks each in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion), meaning you need to have three levels, total, before you can qualify for it. Essentially, the extra sorcerer level is there to meet the skill requirements.

Now, you COULD switch the third level over to Oracle, which would (slightly) accelerate your curse's improvement, but you can't take MT levels until fourth.

Yep, already edited my post to take that line out.

Also interested to find out if having a 3rd level arcane SLA and a 2nd level divine SLA would qualify for MT. I'd really like to be able to select my oracle mystery.

[Joe M.]

Both excellent follow-up FAQ questions. I might go start those threads if yall don't get around to it.

Any other follow-ups come to mind?

[andreww]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Also interested to find out if having a 3rd level arcane SLA and a 2nd level divine SLA would qualify for MT. I'd really like to be able to select my oracle mystery.

Everywhere I have asked so far has said no to this which, if it is true, annoys me no end due to how utterly dire the Wood Mystery is. Sorcerer2/Oracle(Lore)1/MT with Sidestep Secret would be rather nice. It would also make taking Extra Revelation quite tempting which it really isn't with Wood.

Of course it might actually be possible. I doubt many people last month would have believed that SLA's would count for PrC entry requirements.

[andreww]

I created a thread in the rules forum for this question. Feel free to go and FAQ it.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py7a?PrC-Entry-Requirements#1

[CWheezy]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

The only thing up in the air is which curse to saddle myself with. Not being able to wear armor takes a lot of the shine off of lame curse. AC won't suffer, though, because I'll have more than enough low level slots to always have mage armor and shield up on myself. And as a muse-touched aasimar, 16 Dex and 19 Cha at level 1 should be easy to get to. I would consider blackened curse to add burning hands to my spell list for free, but I don't know if the -4 on weapon attacks also applies to ray spells.

Legalistic imo

[andreww]

CWheezy wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

The only thing up in the air is which curse to saddle myself with. Not being able to wear armor takes a lot of the shine off of lame curse. AC won't suffer, though, because I'll have more than enough low level slots to always have mage armor and shield up on myself. And as a muse-touched aasimar, 16 Dex and 19 Cha at level 1 should be easy to get to. I would consider blackened curse to add burning hands to my spell list for free, but I don't know if the -4 on weapon attacks also applies to ray spells.

Legalistic imo

If you are going Sorcerer/Oracle/MT I doubt you will want to spend much time in melee so are liable to be dumping Strength. Given you have a limited number of spells known and cant increase that with the usual Human favoured class bonus I would go with Blackened.

That will give you four extra spells known over 10 levels and take some of the pressure off your sorcerer list. Burning Hands gives you a nice Swarm option, Flaming Sphere and Scorching Ray are great targets for Dazing later on and Empowered Scorching Ray isn't a bad single target damage spell if the target isn't engaged. Wall of Fire is a surprisingly powerful anti undead spell. 4d6+2xCL with no save adds up fast, especially if you can lock them down inside it with some other effect.

[Wraith235]

so then the Fate inquisition fails for qualification

Augery shows up on the Witch list

[Joe M.]

andreww wrote:

I created a thread in the rules forum for this question. Feel free to go and FAQ it.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py7a?PrC-Entry-Requirements#1

Link fixed.

[Mergy]

Wraith235 wrote:

so then the Fate inquisition fails for qualification

Augery shows up on the Witch list

It really is a silly way of defining whether an SLA is arcane or divine. Maybe it should just be dependant on whether it's a wizard, cleric, or druid spell, and if it's got wizard, it's arcane.

[Curaigh]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Does an SLA count as spontaneous casting for the purpose of dragon disciple? If so, an eldritch knight disciple with wizard base becomes an option. -

I looked this up, 'spontaneous' must have been a 3.5 holdover because it says something different now...

dragon disciple wrote:

Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Yep, I am looking at blackened curse for the damage spells, since those are spells I'd probably be taking as a sorcerer If I didn't already know them. It's also nice to be casting them out of oracle slots, since those slots would be mainly reserved for buffs and emergency heals anyway.

[andreww]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Yep, I am looking at blackened curse for the damage spells, since those are spells I'd probably be taking as a sorcerer If I didn't already know them. It's also nice to be casting them out of oracle slots, since those slots would be mainly reserved for buffs and emergency heals anyway.

When I was putting my version together today I kept running up against the fact that you get very few sorcerer spells known and their list is packed full of juicy juicy goodness. Shifting a few off onto the Oracle gave a little bit of breathing room but I really missed the Human Favoured Class bonus.

[Bigdaddyjug]

The human FCB for sorcerer is vastly over-rated in my opinion. The blackened curse gives you at least 2 spells you were possibly grabbing as a sorcerer anyway, and now you get to use oracle slots to cast them. Yes, you're going to have fewer oracle slots to begin with, but you also won't have as many spells you want/need to cast I would think.

[andreww]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

The human FCB for sorcerer is vastly over-rated in my opinion.

It really isn't. You are talking about 2 extra spells known at every level from 1-7 and 3 at 8th. That's a huge increase in your versatility especially as it is much easier for the Sorcerer to keep lower level spells relevant with metamagic.

Sorcerers live or die based on their number of spells known. If you want to be effective then you really need a way to target all 3 saves, both single target and also in an area. You also want a whole variety of utility and game change spells. A charm or compulsion, some summons, some battlefield control and maybe one or two divinations. Picked carefully you can cover lots of different roles which seems especially important in PFS given the random natures of table matchups.

Even when running as Arcane bloodline with extra spells known and the Human bonus I still find myself really struggling to fit in everything I want.

If I didn't consider it dirty dirty cheese I would just say damn it all and run the half elf Paragon Surge Oracle nonsense.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Well, seeing as we're in the PFS board, you're only getting spells up to level 5, so only bonus spells up to level 4. Two of those can be replaced by inexpensive pages of spell knowledge. So we're really talking about 6 spells known. I don't see that as a huge deal for a PFS character.

In a home game where you might go to level 18 or 20 I could see it being nice.

[Dysfunction]

whoa. hold on!
next thing you know, we will have rogues getting improved familiars and then casting baleful polymorph on their elephants to make it into a squirrels.

and weve all seen how that thread ended up...

[SCPRedMage]

Dysfunction wrote:

whoa. hold on!

next thing you know, we will have rogues getting improved familiars

I honestly can't tell whether or not you're joking about this part, but from as far as I can tell, these FAQ updates actually DO allow a rogue to pick up an improved familiar, as the SLAs provided by the minor magic rogue talent are considered arcane, and they have caster levels, which in turns means the rogue has an arcane caster level, which is the last thing they needed in order to take them...

[Quandary]

Improved Familiar's parameters state "Arcane Spellcaster Level" not "Caster Level".
The difference in wording, while "Caster Level" is otherwise consistently referred to by that exact term elsewhere,
seems sufficient to indicate that Improved Familiar is referrring to the CLASS LEVEL of an Arcane Spellcasting class.
Saying 'arcane caster level' would be a clear enough specificity of 'caster level', 'spellcaster level' thus seems a reference to class levels of a 'spellcaster' class.
EDIT: The Feat pre-requisites make it clear, they say "Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).", NOT 'sufficiently high caster level (see below)'.

This makes sense in the context of Familiars, because their inherent abilities are linked to 'wizard' class level, not 'caster level'.
'Class Level' IS already emulated by Eldritch Heritage and the Adv. Rogue Talent "Familiar" (prereq: Minor/Major Magic) from Ult Combat)
So Rogues could already use Improved Familiar via those pre-existing options.

[SCPRedMage]

Quandary wrote:

*stuff*

Right, I've always believed that was a fair interpretation of Improved Familiar, but when I asked the question in the past, there was enough people on either side that I didn't want to risk the inevitable table variation.

With the Minor Magic SLAs officially being arcane, rogues can now satisfy EITHER interpretation, meaning I don't have to worry about someone telling me I can't have

Spoiler:

Riddywipple

as my familiar.

[Quandary]

Yup, Familiars and especially Improved Familiars are indubitably awesome.

SLAs' caster level would NOT help you achieve the spellcaster class level requirement of Improved Familiar if you tried to go the route of a 1 level Wizard dip, unfortunately. But there's plenty of other approaches, so no problem.

Pathfinder, 2nd Edition request:
Ditch the hideously confusing and unproductive Caster Level/ Spellcaster Level/ Spell Level terminology trainwreck.

[Thalin]

Probably the technically "best" class to come out of this is Bloatmage from level 3 (2 levels earlier).

I feel like the Prepped casters would suffer less; as good as getting everything from 1 stat is. An int/wis Wizard 2 / Evangalist Cleric 1 / Mystic X will effectively be the same level as a sorcerer for most castings, but have so many more spells and spell options. Beats the heck out of the options that have you waiting for level 5 or 6 for 2nd level spells :).

The key would be buff-focusing, to take advantage of the redic number of spells you have. Make the party amazing, and have one specific focus in the Wizard side for spells that require DCs.

With that said, the more I thought about it the more I don't have issue with the rulings; few casters, especially in PFS, ever actually run out of spells; and a straight-summoner and possibly straight-Oracle may be "better" anyway. I certainly believe the Magus is still better at the "spellswording" than the Fighter 1 / Mage 1 / Eldrich Knight.

But if they want to go this route they should open the classes to everyone; there are already too many Aasimir and Tieflings in the game, it's like planar beings are having sex with everyone they can find nowadays...

[Jiggy]

Thalin wrote:

Probably the technically "best" class to come out of this is Bloatmage from level 3 (2 levels earlier).

In PFS, wizards get one of the prereqs as a bonus feat (Spell Focus). Spend your other feat on the other prereq, and you're in at 2nd, not 3rd.

[Jiggy]

So I've long been pondering what to build with my now 2.2 GM credit baby, which I'll finally be playing this Thursday. I'd considered making a primary caster, since I've never played one before; originally I pictured the PC as a Mystic Theurge since I wanted to focus on just spells, spells and more spells... until I learned that a straight sorcerer gets at least as many spells as a (traditional) MT. Now that all this has happened, I think I might take the opportunity to revert to my original concept (yay!) while simultaneously "field testing" the new FAQ/ruling.

Except I'd really like to be human, for concept reasons. I know I can get the 2nd-level divine SLA (that was the Fate inquisition, right?), but what about the arcane? Easy enough to grab as an aasimar or tiefling; is there a feat- or class-based way to get it alongside the divine one? I can't remember, and that would be a LOT of digging to find. Anyone recall (or have the info readily available)?

Thanks.

[Tim Vincent_rulez]

More reasons to despise Aasimars and Tiefling PCs.

[CRobledo]

We had a semi-extensive look at bloodline abilities and arcane schools, and we were not able to find anything class-based that would grant that arcane SLA sadly. We didn't take a look at feats, but I'm going to guess the chances for that one are pretty slim.

My best suggestion would be to go to Wizard 3 before taking a level of MT, which will only delay it 1 level from the "optimal" and it is still 2 levels earlier from the traditional one.

There are a few item-based ones but they are from certain AP's chronicle sheets. (Then also comes the question if an item grants you an SLA does it count. And yes, it does say "You may cast X as a spell-like ability", it's not the item casting it.)

[WalterGM]

Also low level arcane trickster dipped rogues are pretty delicious.

[Kyle Baird]

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Also low level arcane trickster dipped rogues are pretty delicious.

Musetouched Ninja 3/ Sorcerer 1/AT X?

Grimspawn Rogue 3/ Wizard 1/ AT X?

[WalterGM]

Or just aasimar rogue 4/ AT 1 / rogue X
Ranged legerdemain is cool enough to loose a level of SA.

[Truesight]

Jiggy wrote:

Except I'd really like to be human; is there a feat- or class-based way to get it alongside the divine one? I can't remember, and that would be a LOT of digging to find. Anyone recall (or have the info readily available)?

Thanks.

A Trickery domain Cleric with the Fate Inquisition gives both Arcane and Divine 2nd level spell qualifications.

[andreww]

Truesight wrote:

A Trickery domain Cleric with the Fate Inquisition gives both Arcane and Divine 2nd level spell qualifications.

Only if you consider Copycat to be the same as mirror image. It creates one image which operates like one created by the mirror image spell. It's potentially arguable and I would be cautious about using it at a PFS table where the GM could unilaterally declare you to be illegal.

[Bigdaddyjug]

andreww wrote:

Truesight wrote:

A Trickery domain Cleric with the Fate Inquisition gives both Arcane and Divine 2nd level spell qualifications.

Only if you consider Copycat to be the same as mirror image. It creates one image which operates like one created by the mirror image spell. It's potentially arguable and I would be cautious about using it at a PFS table where the GM could unilaterally declare you to be illegal.

It's an SLA that is based on a spell. There's not much argument anybody can make about that, really. Well they could, but it wouldn't be a very effective argument when the description of the SLA references the spell name.

[andreww]

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

At the minimum, Wood Mystery has a revelation that gives you shape wood and then you pick Musetouched Aasimar for glitterdust. I think someone found a few other permutations.

The Lore Mystery revelation Automatic Writing gives you Augury which lets you qualify into Mystic Theurge with something other than the crappy Wood Mystery.

[Joe M.]

andreww wrote:

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

At the minimum, Wood Mystery has a revelation that gives you shape wood and then you pick Musetouched Aasimar for glitterdust. I think someone found a few other permutations.

The Lore Mystery revelation Automatic Writing gives you Augury which lets you qualify into Mystic Theurge with something other than the crappy Wood Mystery.

I'm not sure that will work. Explained here.

[andreww]

Hmm, everyone knows how popular Animate Dead is in society play. Would a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge have two separate pools of HD to control and would both be doubled in a desecrate area? If so at character level 10 you would be looking at 36HD from the Wizard and 40HD from the Cleric (assuming magical knack). At character level 7 you would be looking at 28HD from your Cleric casting.

That's a lot of undead allies there. Now we just need to find enough suitable corpses.

[cartmanbeck]

Joe M. wrote:

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

By the way, you guys rock! I love how we can really dig in to this and try to make an analysis together, regardless of our opinion, rather than getting caught up on rhetoric like in some of the other threads on this topic. In my opinion, this is definitely the most productive of these threads.

+1 to that.

I'm looking at three different MT possibilities right now.

Int-based Emberkin Wizard 2 / Cleric 1 / MT
Wis-based Plumekith Cleric 2 / Empyreal Sorcerer 1 / MT
Cha-based Musetouched Sorcerer 2 / Wood Oracle 1 / MT

I'm wondering how you get the Int-based casting for the Cleric side of that first option?

[CRobledo]

cartmanbeck wrote:

I'm wondering how you get the Int-based casting for the Cleric side of that first option?

I dont think he does. I think he just means focus on the wizard side (int) and let the cleric lag a bit (wis)

[cartmanbeck]

CRobledo wrote:

cartmanbeck wrote:

I'm wondering how you get the Int-based casting for the Cleric side of that first option?

I dont think he does. I think he just means focus on the wizard side (int) and let the cleric lag a bit (wis)

Well then that one is totally sub-optimal to the Wis-based version using the Empyreal Sorcerer! Unless you really hate Sorcerers. :)

[CRobledo]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Well then that one is totally sub-optimal to the Wis-based version using the Empyreal Sorcerer! Unless you really hate Sorcerers. :)

I beg to disagree. I built out one for fun and doing 17 INT and 17 WIS (bump one at 4 and one at 8) Lawbringer Aasimar is really all you need for a lot of MT builds. I would play him as a buffer, so no need for high DCs.

Plus, using levels of sorcerer or oracle slows your spell progression even more. So actually, wizard/cleric is the perfect combo if your goal is to get to the higher level spells faster. Sorcerer is allright if you hve a use for the bloodline powers, but I'm fine with my specialized school powers and faster spell progression.

[cartmanbeck]

CRobledo wrote:

cartmanbeck wrote:

Well then that one is totally sub-optimal to the Wis-based version using the Empyreal Sorcerer! Unless you really hate Sorcerers. :)

I beg to disagree. I built out one for fun and doing 17 INT and 17 WIS (bump one at 4 and one at 8) Lawbringer Aasimar is really all you need for a lot of MT builds. I would play him as a buffer, so no need for high DCs.

Plus, using levels of sorcerer or oracle slows your spell progression even more. So actually, wizard/cleric is the perfect combo if your goal is to get to the higher level spells faster. Sorcerer is allright if you hve a use for the bloodline powers, but I'm fine with my specialized school powers and faster spell progression.

Fair enough. I like to have an 18 in my main casting stat minimum, so I couldn't see how it would work out that well. I would probably stick with one of the single-attribute-dependent options personally.

Sidenote: Picking the Magic (Arcane) Subdomain as your other domain is freaking awesome for these builds... You get to add +1 caster level to your own arcane spells!

[Dhjika]

andreww wrote:

The Lore Mystery revelation Automatic Writing gives you Augury which lets you qualify into Mystic Theurge with something other than the crappy Wood Mystery.

Augury is a Witch spell which makes it an arcane SLA

[Jiggy]

Dhjika wrote:

andreww wrote:

The Lore Mystery revelation Automatic Writing gives you Augury which lets you qualify into Mystic Theurge with something other than the crappy Wood Mystery.

Augury is a Witch spell which makes it an arcane SLA

Actually, non-Core classes don't affect whether the SLA is arcane or divine, unless the spell in question is not on any Core class lists. The hierarchy for determining which class' nature is represented by the SLA is Core-only.

LINK

The first list on the hierarchy on whose list augury appears is cleric, so the SLA is divine.

[Dhjika]

Jiggy wrote:

Dhjika wrote:

andreww wrote:

The Lore Mystery revelation Automatic Writing gives you Augury which lets you qualify into Mystic Theurge with something other than the crappy Wood Mystery.

Augury is a Witch spell which makes it an arcane SLA

Actually, non-Core classes don't affect whether the SLA is arcane or divine, unless the spell in question is not on any Core class lists. The hierarchy for determining which class' nature is represented by the SLA is Core-only.

LINK

The first list on the hierarchy on whose list augury appears is cleric, so the SLA is divine.

it looks like the ruling was changed yesterday - does that mean the old if it is not exclusively on a cleric list or druid list it is arcane is gone as well?