|
At worst he underestimated how much healing he would need.That's the thing, though. It's kind of like a fighter buying only 5 arrows for his backup bow. "I only use it for emergencies, I didn't think we'd be fighting that many fliers!"
The cost is negligible, so why not prepare for the worst?
So how many Potions is "enough?" 20? 100? 2000? Seriously. My point is that, from my perspective, the OP made a minor mistake and did not have enough healing and when he asked for a little supplement in healing, he was told, in effect, "No, your choice for healing is wrong. Despite the game offering numerous way to gain healing you must use this one and only method, or else you are a jerk."
What if I run through all of the remaining charges on my wand in a session? Are you going to deny me some healing to help out? Are you going to call me a jerk for that? Cost aside, Potions of Cure Light Wounds and charges from a Wand of Cure Light Wounds are numerically identical.
Also we have no way of knowing how many potions he had, at least I did not see it listed by the OP at any point. So for all we know he started that Scenario with 50, the exact same healing as is available from a fully charged Wand. Tell me what the difference is, aside from the fact that he can use those potions himself, while the wand is dependant on a character who can use it being present.
See your short ONCE or even once in a while...no biggie. But the OP was told REPEATEDLY to get a wand. One would assume because the OP was repeatedly running out of heals. That is what makes you being a jerk. The opps ran out if FINE. The opps ran out for the 10th session in a row is NOT.
|
See your short ONCE or even once in a while...no biggie. But the OP was told REPEATEDLY to get a wand. One would assume because the OP was repeatedly running out of heals. That is what makes you being a jerk. The opps ran out if FINE. The opps ran out for the 10th session in a row is NOT.
I've been told to get wands at games where I took no damage.
|
|
Funny enough, we nearly had a tpk this week because of a similar issue. I crit the only person who could use wands, killing them. The other 4 characters had 0 potions and had to rely on a wizard with like +3 umd to use cure wands as he didn't have infernal healing.
Oh, and I warned the party healing would be tight and maybe they should buy a potion just in case.
ive just recently finished Eyes of the Ten with my high level group, and our paladin was our tank. he learned a hard lesson during eyes... 38 AC (holy vindicator/paladin/other assorted b*~%#$#+) meant that the only time most monsters could hit him were with nat 20s. he felt so invulnerable for 12 levels, then when we went into eyes of the ten he was completely unprepared, i played a ranged DPR inquisitor and died once in all four parts of eyes, almost died twice in a few parts, because our paladin couldnt tank it. after a certain point it no longer becomes necessary to continue to increase AC, because there are only a few monsters here and there that will ever be able to hit a 32+ AC, and those are the ones that will likely hit even if you go up to the pinnacle of 42 *disclaimer* i know that because I have never seen over that it does not mean that is unattainable, my point is that there are some monsters you cant hope to tank perfectly, and 20 always hits, so you will EVENTUALLY need healing or die. unless you are a paladin and can lay on hands as an immediate action upon hitting 0 hp once per round.
|
As long as it is SHARED, and not carried by one or even most of the party. If I can't share the "HP Tax" this game? I'll be sure to pick up a little extra next time. We're a team right? And no one likes a Mooch for long.Exactly so which gets us back to the starting point of this thread. People should dedicate some of their resources to survival. The most efficient way of doing that is to grab a happy stick. Not doing so is both selfish and self destructive.
I just want to reiterate that having a bunch of Potions, while not the option I would choose, is just as viable as a wand.
|
|
I just want to reiterate that having a bunch of Potions, while not the option I would choose, is just as viable as a wand.It is an option but it's quite a lot more expensive one. I would certainly recommend having a couple of potions in case the people who can activate your Cure or Infernal Healing wands go down but I wouldn't make them my main source of personal healing.
I agree with your point. I just want it clear that someone who brings a bunch of potions is definitely contributing, even if not in an economical fashion.
|
|
Yep I agree with you although I would be asking them why they are relying on the more expensive potions rather than a much cheaper wand.
Earlier on someone made the point that their Barbarian wouldn't buy a wand as they wouldn't see the benefit. I could sort of see that as a reasonable position early on but to ignore the effectiveness after a while smacks of stubbornness. It sort of assumes they will never learn, never discuss strategies with their comrades and never consider what those funny little sticks might be able to do.
I would also imagine that basic PF training would include the benefit to be obtained by our magical happy sticks of getting healthy quickly.
I agree.
|
Only if you accept that Tank is an actual role. The reality is that there are very few ways for "tank" characters to convince the enemy to focus on them rather than targeting the people at the back who can rewrite reality in 6 seconds.If playing as a caster I pretty much expect enemies to focus their attacks on me to the preference of some guy with a sword. As levels increase I expect to be the target of ever greater attention.
Tanking is mostly something that happens when your GM is going soft on you.
I find enlarging myself in 10-ft wide choke-points does wonders for preventing meleers from getting to the squishies. It also gives them cover against ranged attacks to. Doesn't help with Fireball, but you can't have everything.
Reach + Trip + Combat Reflexes is also another great way of keeping people from getting past you to the squishies.
Heck, just being able to do a lot of damage with an AoO is often enough incentive to prevent enemies from disengaging from you to get to the squishies.
It is entirely possible to tank in PFS even without a soft DM.
|
|
Only if you accept that Tank is an actual role. The reality is that there are very few ways for "tank" characters to convince the enemy to focus on them rather than targeting the people at the back who can rewrite reality in 6 seconds.If playing as a caster I pretty much expect enemies to focus their attacks on me to the preference of some guy with a sword. As levels increase I expect to be the target of ever greater attention.
Tanking is mostly something that happens when your GM is going soft on you.
I find enlarging myself in 10-ft wide choke-points does wonders for preventing meleers from getting to the squishies. It also gives them cover against ranged attacks to. Doesn't help with Fireball, but you can't have everything.
Reach + Trip + Combat Reflexes is also another great way of keeping people from getting past you to the squishies.
Heck, just being able to do a lot of damage with an AoO is often enough incentive to prevent enemies from disengaging from you to get to the squishies.
It is entirely possible to tank in PFS even without a soft DM.
At lower levels...
Good luck with that at higher ones where you face things with teleport at will (season 5...it's coming).
Before you mention some ancedotal PFS game, yes I do consider a very large chunk of PFS softballing if ran as written.
|
|
Before you mention some ancedotal PFS game, yes I do consider a very large chunk of PFS softballing if ran as written.
And since you are a high end power gamer that would be a true statement. But the majority of PFS players are not. So please remember that what applies to you does not apply to the majority.
|
|
You don't have to be a power gamer to see that "tanking" as a tactic really runs out of steam as you get higher in level and face more foes using things like deeper darkness, invisibility, flight or teleportation to ignore the slow moving meat shield and focus on the real dangers, the archer paladin/fighter/ranger/bard/inquisitor or the spell casters.If you are facing unintelligent foes like golems or large animals that may not be an issue but those sorts of weak threats can be trivially bypassed at later levels.
I wasn't necessarily referring to the one instance of tanking.
And, I never thought of golems as trivial considering I have seen them kill multiple PCs.
|
Further old soldier anecdote:
"You will carry this injector in your left breast pocket! 'cause if I come up on your sorry ass while you are twitching on the ground, that is where I am going to look for it. And you know what I'll do if it aint there? I sure as h3$$ aint going to use MINE on you - that's for when my sorry ass is laying twitching on the ground! And you sure aint going to use yours on someone else for the same reason! Pull the injector from HIS pocket. Pop the plastic cap off and punch it into the meat of his thigh. After it injects, shove the needle thru the flap on the shirt pocket you got it from, yeah genius that would be his shirt pocket. Then bend the needle over and leave it hanging there, so the medic or anyone else who comes along will know he's had the injection."
... and mine continued:
"...and you've got three of 'em, and you're in a hurry. Zap him with all three and move on. Yeah, he'll probably have a heart attack or atropine poisoning, but both of those are easier for a real medic to cure than having your brain melted with nerve gas!"
|
|
It is good that you finally have what everyone else has.
Everything else you complained about is irrelevant, Since you start with an incorrect premise of "Clerics are the only class with two class features for healing". This is of course not true, sorry!
Life oracles actually have three methods of healing: spells, channeling and energy body.
id reference back to my earlier post about my life oracle, but youd likely just ignore it again. suffice it to say that my life oracle doesnt care if you dont have a wand, she heals because it needs done, and has more than enough resources for the job.
|
|
Ok I've read through this topic a bit but not all of it... apologies in advance if this has been covered by someone.
For the people who are arguing that a CLW (or Infernal Healing) wand should not be mandatory... what do you do when there is no cleric/oracle in the group? Of all the PFS games I've played we've only had a "healer" in the group maybe 20% of the time.
Otherwise what do you do when the best healing you have in the group is a level 4 ranger? I don't know about all of you, but having a CLW wand allows a lot more classes to patch you up between fights when you don't have someone with multiple channels or healing spells.
And no I would never expect that level 4 ranger to heal anyone in combat except for life-and-death situations. That's the point where everyone takes care of themselves the best they can and play more conservatively (which entails having a few CLW wands and healing potions bought with PP).
even having a cleric/oracle is no guarantee of healing. Many oracles are battle oracles who don't want to heal. Many clerics are battle clerics or clerics who prefer to use their spells to summon animals and want to channel negative energy. Just because someone is a cleric or oracle does not mean they want to be trapped in a heal bot role.
|
|
And since you are a high end power gamer that would be a true statement. But the majority of PFS players are not. So please remember that what applies to you does not apply to the majority.
Before you mention some ancedotal PFS game, yes I do consider a very large chunk of PFS softballing if ran as written.
Actually, even new gamers around here have remarked that is TERRIBLE to some of the tactics I have seen used in PFS. Then again, since PFS DOES softball a lot of scenarios, tanking does seem to work more often then it really should and at higher levels. But that is another issue in all honesty (a lot of players don't know how to adjust to the higher tier tactics and play styles).
|
My Life Oracle is pretty boss, even at only 3rd level.
I've essentially stopped playing my 9th level Merciful Healer because for a whole series of games everyone I healed in combat got focused on by bad guys and killed - or I got focused on by the bad guys and taken out. Heck one time I went towards a dying character and they shot him dead before I could get in range to stabilize.
He was a great healer - but since he didn't do much for damage output he was a liability not an asset. I mean he was a great healer - cure spells didn't provoke and had free empower, 9 7d6 selective channels with 1s rerolled. +19 UMD, could hit some targets with Mercies, and cast utility spells for party.
The can't damage undead with channels hurt more than I realized it would.
|
|
This is why you carry yer own gosh darn CLW wand.
Playing The Price of Friendship, a tier 5-9 scenario, at tier 5-6. We had no cleric; the healing was provided by my inquisitor, a bard, and a witch. The witch was the only character who had not multi-classed. Rounding out our group was a ranger with an animal companion. Before we started playing, this player casually mentioned his PC did not have a CLW wand. He had no means of healing himself nor his animal companion.
At one point in the scenario, both my PC and Mr. No CLW wand were one HP from death. The witch could heal one of us. Guess who got a charge from a wand of CLW? Guess who needed a new animal companion?
I burned an entire wand trying to keep the two of them alive. Again, this player cannot buy me a new wand, they cannot give me 750gp, and yet I freely used my wand on this person and his animal companion. None of us were very happy about this.
I should have demanded the the ranger become the latest convert to the Church of the Inheritor.
|
|
My argument is simply about fairness and cooperation. Yes, you don't need 6 CLW wands at the table. But, if you aren't bringing a cure light wounds wand to the table how are you planning to heal yourself? How are you planning on healing the guy who is taking the hits for you?
Many of the tables I play with nowadays, everyone brings a wand of CLW and we split charges across the table. The groups I play with feel this is the fairest way to split resources, so that one or two people aren't having to take the monetary loss. Someone pointed out that the guy standing in front is going to require more healing than the folks in the back, but he's also keeping those folks in the back from getting attacked. So as far as I am concerned it's only fair to split charges when out of combat. YMMV.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Building on nosig's post...
"Pathfinders! Your mission is to go to Denny's Dungeon, and retrieve the MacGuffin of MacGuffiness. Get to it!"
*party arrives at the entrance of Denny's Dungeon.*
"Wally Wizard, will you hit me with my wand of mage armor before we go in?"
"Sure thing Manny Monk!"That's not metagaming, that's tactics.
"Ok, on the way to Denny's Dungeon I need a percep-"
"Quick! Wally Wizard hits me with my wand of mage armor!"That's metagaming.
I approve of this because it makes me a wizard.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Not to derail, but I've had this questions many times and GMs that I've played with consistently allow it. Is there an official Paizo or PFS stance on whether one provides a Flank bonus when in Total Defense?Total Defense: You can't make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
Flanking: Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Attacks of Opportunity: Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
The assumption comes from making a connection from being "unable to make attacks of opportunity" to "not threatening those squares."
This is exactly what I always assumed.
So you threaten, but can't take the AOO provided if your foe does something that provokes. Thus still providing the +2 bonus for flanking. "You are still a threat"
I am now a better GM, thanks everyone. Hooray for learning!
|
|
So should the rest of the party have reimbursed me for the 1500 I spent to succeed in Race for the Runecarved Key? Since my oil of daylight and potion of fly ended encounters much earlier than they would have been otherwise and saved the barbarian from taking more Con drain? Should I demand they start carrying such consumables as well? After all, they cost as much as a wand.
|
|
And since you are a high end power gamer that would be a true statement. But the majority of PFS players are not. So please remember that what applies to you does not apply to the majority.
Before you mention some ancedotal PFS game, yes I do consider a very large chunk of PFS softballing if ran as written.You don't have to be a power gamer to see that "tanking" as a tactic really runs out of steam as you get higher in level and face more foes using things like deeper darkness, invisibility, flight or teleportation to ignore the slow moving meat shield and focus on the real dangers, the archer paladin/fighter/ranger/bard/inquisitor or the spell casters.
If you are facing unintelligent foes like golems or large animals that may not be an issue but those sorts of weak threats can be trivially bypassed at later levels.
Eh, generalities. There are ways to tank in PFS, you just have to be CREATIVE. Using terrain. Having your wizard/sorcerer friend cast aoe spells to create choke points. Using ANTAGONIZE. Yes, it's not tanking in the classical MMO terms (as aggro mechanics are rarer and not nearly as powerful), but you can, indeed, do a lot of things to get the enemies to focus on you.
|
|
So should the rest of the party have reimbursed me for the 1500 I spent to succeed in Race for the Runecarved Key? Since my oil of daylight and potion of fly ended encounters much earlier than they would have been otherwise and saved the barbarian from taking more Con drain? Should I demand they start carrying such consumables as well? After all, they cost as much as a wand.
Do you almost always use between 1 and 50 of each in any given scenario?
|
|
If I keep running into light-sensitive/deeper darkness using enemies I'm spending 750 a scenario. How often do you run into those?
I'd estimate I've spent ~1500 gold per scenario in consumables during my rogue's 7-11 career (well, at least the ones where he was part of a 10-11 sub-tier table). And you know what? SO. WORTH. IT.