
Kryptik |
26 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |

Hey folks,
I've got a player playing a Bladebound Magus who was asking about enchanting his Black Blade. I looked through a couple threads in the forums, but nothing contains an official answer. One of the threads opening post said that the question was answered in the FAQ, but I go to the Ultimate Magic FAQ and nowhere is this issue mentioned.
Is there another FAQ I'm supposed to be looking at? Where other than the UM FAQ would it be?
Thanks!
- K

Buri |

When you're upgrading a weapon you calculate the value of the weapon in the before and after versions and subtract the former value from the upgraded value. This is your cost of upgrade. Half that is your materials cost. If the black blade upgrades itself from levelling the player will need to pay the difference. It's no different that upgrading another magic item. Keep in mind if they're adding a new, non-weapon ability to factor in the +50% cost for items with multiple abilities.

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long story short, no. Its a scaling class ability, not a regular weapon
it has a unique ego progression, making its new ego undeterminable,
its a free weapon, that upgrades, and they can use arcane pool with it to get more goodies.
also, let me guess...
dex build, uses scimitar, really really wants agile property?

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When you're upgrading a weapon you calculate the value of the weapon in the before and after versions and subtract the former value from the upgraded value. This is your cost of upgrade. Half that is your materials cost. If the black blade upgrades itself from levelling the player will need to pay the difference. It's no different that upgrading another magic item. Keep in mind if they're adding a new, non-weapon ability to factor in the +50% cost for items with multiple abilities.
Where is that in the Bladebound magus description?

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At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
(emphasis mine)
Yes, a magus can add to the enhancement bonus of a magic weapon.

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long story short, no. Its a scaling class ability, not a regular weapon
it has a unique ego progression, making its new ego undeterminable,
its a free weapon, that upgrades, and they can use arcane pool with it to get more goodies.
also, let me guess...
dex build, uses scimitar, really really wants agile property?
Yon magus will have to settle for the Dervish Dance feat.

Buri |

Where is that in the Bladebound magus description?
It's in the description of How I Run This Because It's a Weird Combo in the First Place (TM).
I'm not going to let a player begin an upgrade on a weapon, sandbag their enhancement bonus until it's a +5, and then finish the upgrade in a couple days to have a +6/7/8 weapon for way less than what such a weapon would cost.
It's also based on the magic item creation rules.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If your blade went from a +1 to a +2 due to levels while you were performing an upgrade those costs just went up and you need to pay that difference.

Cheapy |

So here is what I think went on. The post isn't well broken up. It lists a number of questions, and when you FAQ a post, the design team isn't sure which question you're FAQing.
Due to this, they thought that the question was whether you can bypass the +10 limitation, which is something that's been seriously argued in the past.
Thus, they made this FAQ entry, which deals with the +10 limitation.
That probably doesn't help you, but might explain what went on. Making this post specifically about permanently enhancing the item and nothing else will make things more clear if/when it gets a FAQ.

MeatForTheGrinder |

I'm fairly sure that the Black Blade upgrades without the need for the player to spend gold on the purchase the new abilities. This weapon is more of a familiar than a weapon in that respect. Otherwise, there would be very little point to it, since you could simply not take the archetype and purchase a magic weapon in the standard method, and gain full Arcane Pool progression.
The description of Black Blade does state that the weapon is a masterwork weapon for everyone but the magus. It also lacks the language that Arcane Pool has that allows bonuses to stack. Since it is a MW weapon, it could be used as a sword by anyone for the standard purposes of a weapon. This should include being enchanted by someone that can craft magic weapons. I would argue that if this was done, the enhancement bonus gained would not stack with the innate enhancement bonus of the weapon gained by the magus (but would still function normally with Arcane Pool enhancements). I guess if you paid for a +1 and then added additional abilities, you could let those abilities stack. In most cases, I'm guessing character wealth's limits would very probably mean that the weapon's innate enhancement in the hands of the magus would be better than the crafted bonus, and lead to no gain.
For example, a level 5 magus has a +2 innate enhancement on his Black Blade. He could have the blade enhanced to a +1 Agile weapon for the standard cost. When anyone else wields the weapon, it is a +1 Agile, but in his hands the larger innate +2 would override and the weapon would be +2 Agile. This would still stack with Arcane Pool weapon enhancements, but you still need to observe the +10 rule (max +10 effective level on any magic weapon).
Although it is debatable that it is RAI legal, I would argue that it is a waste of character wealth anyway for someone who can customize weapon qualities such as a magus.

Buri |

If it matters James Jacobs has said he would not allow it as it probably was not an intended function of how those mechanics interoperate. This is far from a design team response, though.
I let the magus in the group I GM upgrade his blackblade. Fortunately for him, he only applies abilities and not enhancements and he's had the enhancement bonus jump on him and he's needed to pay more according to what I've said above. He doesn't complain though because, really, he's even more of a melee powerhouse.

Xaratherus |
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Table-rule only, but I would probably allow a bladebound to enhance his blade with abilities that either do not require an enhancement bonus, or that could not be gained using his arcane pool.
RAW, I do not know if you could upgrade a black blade. I would view it more of a combination class feature\familiar\artifact, and probably by strict RAW wouldn't allow it to be upgraded.

GreenMandar |

Yes that was the one, Cheapy.
I'm kind of surprised they didn't clarify whether or not you can enchant it. I am houseruling it that you cannot, but I would be interested in seeing an official response because several of my players seem to have an interest in the Magus.
They most likely didn't answer that other question because they can only so much before clearing it.
A post with one question on one topic is much more likely to get a FAQ than a post with multiple questions, especially if they are about different topics. This is because we can't clear a FAQ-flag for just part of a post, which means we have to answer all questions in that post to clear it, and some of those questions may be harder to answer than others.
Harder meaning "requires more than a couple of minutes to put an answer together."
and
However, as there is no option for us to say "this post is a mess and we can't suss out exactly what you're asking," it's possible it may have been marked answered-in-FAQ to purge it from the list (otherwise it would sit in the list forever... the only options for clearing flags are "answered in FAQ," "answered in errata," "not an error/no staff response needed," and "create new FAQ entry for this") with the expectation that a clearer version of the question is in the queue.
A short, concise question is much more likely to get a FAQ than a post that is a page of supposition, links to other discussions, and no actual question presented.
Those quotes are from the below linked thread, which I recommend reading to get a better understanding of how to make the most of the FAQ system.
Threads-Marked-Answered-in-FAQ-that-arentEdited for clarity and to add another SKR quote

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You'e not going to find a FAQ rule on this. If this is a home game, then you as a GM have to make your personal decision on what a Blackblade is.
Quite frankly, I don't expect a request for FAQ answer to be honored, as I suspect that Paizo chooses like many grey area questions for the final authority to be left at the hands of the GM. The "GM" for PFS, as it were , pretty much covers this by forbidding creation of custom items and an enchanted Blackblade pretty much falls under this category.
For my own purposes, I consider the Blackblade to be something on the order of either a creature or artifact in it's own right, such as the Black Entity in Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories, and not a valid target for standard enchantment processes.

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I would say that, no, you can't enhance the weapon further with Craft Magic Arms & Armor.
The line saying that the arcane pool bonuses stack with the weapon's existing enhancement bonus refers to the innate enhancement bonus of the Black Blade (listed under Black Blade Progression): +1 at 3rd level, +2 at 5th level, +3 at 9th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 17th level.
If you could simply pay to have it enhanced further, then I'm sure that someone could point to a Paizo publication where this has been done for a Bladebound Magus.

D'arandriel |

I know the popular opinion is that a black blade cannot be enchanted because it is a "class feature" vs. a "magic item". This seems like nonsense. Just because it's a class feature does not mean its not a magic item. The two are not mutually exclusive. There's even guidelines and costs for adding special abilities to intelligent items. Just because a black blade does not follow a normal ego progression, doesn't mean you can't add to the blade's ego with every new ability added to the black blade - it's simple arithmetic. I see no reason not to allow a black blade to be further enchanted. It's simple enough to figure out the costs, and is only made complicated by people looking to support their argument that it should not be further enchanted.

Shane LeRose |

They're a magic item. That's all that's important rules-wise.
I disagree.
What's important here is that it's abusive. Yes, many of the things people claim to be abusive are not, but this truly is. If allowed it enables a player to beef up their weapon for a lower cost at low levels, the cost to further enchant becomes progressively more expensive, but with an automatic increase from leveling you bypass most of the cost. Basically it's an exploit of the rules (again, that gets tossed around often, but isn't always true).
The black blade is a unique case. It doesn't follow the given rules as is, so why should the given rules automatically apply? Simply put, they shouldn't. It's far simpler to say no in this case as opposed to trying to find a way to say yes (which is my usual philosophy).
YMMV, and of course for someone's home game all bets are off, but in the interest of reason a simple "no, cause you wield a minor artifact" not only works, but is a satisfying response.

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I do not think it is reasonable to apply the rules for a normal magic item to a Black Blade. First of all, a normal magic item - even an intelligent magic sword - does not upgrade itself. The ego and intelligence of a magic sword do not increase over time.
Saying that a magus has to pay (pay whom, by the way?) because his Black Blade became more powerful is like saying that a druid has to pay because his animal companion became more powerful.
Does a cleric have to make a donation to his god's church because his domain powers increase?
Way back in the AD&D days, a character had to spend one week and 1000 gp per level in order to gain his new level. That is no longer the rule - for any character.

Buri |

I do not think it is reasonable to apply the rules for a normal magic item to a Black Blade. First of all, a normal magic item - even an intelligent magic sword - does not upgrade itself. The ego and intelligence of a magic sword do not increase over time.
The black blade doesn't upgrade itself. It gains upgrades as the magus levels. It's an important distinction. If the magus stopped levelling in magus and wanted to keep that weapon relevant well into late levels upgrades would almost be mandatory.

D'arandriel |

D'arandriel wrote:No more abusive or exploitative than crafting.Irrelevant argument since I go over crafting with a fine-toothed comb, and use an additional mechanic to keep it under reasonable control. Just because tactic A is "abusive" has nothing to do with the merits of Tactic B.
And you can't go over the cost of upgrading a black blade with a fine-toothed comb? At the end of the day, we can all agree that it comes down to the GM and what he is willing to allow and charge for enchanting and upgrading the black blade. I just don't see any rational reason to not allow a black blade to be enchanted/upgraded. It just seems like a knee-jerk reaction to some perceived exploit or abuse of the rules.

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The black blade gains upgrades as the magus gains levels. If the magus wanted to upgrade his Black Blade without taking more levels as a magus, he would be out of luck.
If a druid wants his animal companion to become more powerful without gaining levels as a druid, how would he do that? If a summoner wanted his eidolon to gain evolutions without taking more levels as a summoner, how would he do it? It's the same with a black blade. It is a class feature. Its properties depend on the level of the bladebound magus.

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Are there normal game mechanics for purchasing "upgrades" to animals? No. Don't be ridiculous. There is an entire system for purchasing upgrades for magic items. Btw, a summoner can just take extra evolution. ;)
Let me rephrase the summoner example. Yes, the summoner could take a feat to gain an extra evolution point to his eidolon. He could even use the Transmogrify spell to apply the evolution change. But without gaining more levels as a summoner, he could not gain the eidolon's ability score increases, armor bonus, saving throws, BAB, or other abilities.
My point is that there is no game mechanic for purchasing upgrades to class features. A seventh level druid cannot spend any amount of gold to get the animal companion of a tenth level druid. A black blade is a class feature.

Buri |

The class feature in this case is a magic item. It might be intelligent. The class may give it some nifties because it's a core mechanic of the class but it is what it is. The game has mechanics of upgrading magic items. Saying they can't do that is purely arbitrary. There is absolutely zero rules reason why they can't upgrade the weapon. Since this is a rules question that's all I care about. I give zero inclination to how you rule as a GM.

ShoulderPatch |
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Improving/modifying intelligent items requires following an ego progression chart
A black blade does not follow that chart and cannot fit in it
Ergo the rules do not allow for improving a black blade
Anyone that does is using house rules, this is the wrong forum
RAW it is not able to be done
It also isn't allowed in PFS

Xaratherus |

For what it's worth, James Jacobs does not believe it can be enchanted externally.
Does the Black Blade state that it's a masterwork item? By default, does an otherwise unenhanced Black Blade offer a +1 to attack rolls?
I know that you can masterwork an item later, but I'd point out that if it's not a masterwork item by default, then you'd have that extra cost before you could put any enhancements on it.

Buri |

JJ is a great guy. Even he refers rules questions to this forum. That's how he GMs which is great. But it's not how the rules are set.
@ShoulderPatch
Maybe on ego. Your argument has no application as long as the sword's value stays within the same range for it's ego modifier though. No crafting at all is allowed in PFS though so that just doesn't apply here where the assumption has clearly been that crafting in general is an option. The question is whether it applies to a black blade.

D'arandriel |

There actually isn't unless you change the base item's value. Adding an enhancement or ability like impact by itself carries no ego adjustment. But, say you go over 50k gp for the base item less any intelligent item costs and they go from +2 to +3, I believe.
You can also add spells per day, bind sense, telepathy, etc. This all modifies the items ego.

Bobson |

I think we are overly complicating how to calculate the black blade's ego in order to build an argument that a black blade cannot be enchanted/upgraded. The black blade's ego is what it is. If you want to add an ability to the blade, there's an ego modifier. Simple.
I'm an 11th level Magus. I want to enchant my black blade to be +1 Agile Flaming. What's the ego modifier? What level of enhancement bonus does it have?

D'arandriel |

D'arandriel wrote:I think we are overly complicating how to calculate the black blade's ego in order to build an argument that a black blade cannot be enchanted/upgraded. The black blade's ego is what it is. If you want to add an ability to the blade, there's an ego modifier. Simple.I'm an 11th level Magus. I want to enchant my black blade to be +1 Agile Flaming. What's the ego modifier? What level of enhancement bonus does it have?
Your 11th level magus has a +3 black blade with a 14 ego. You added +1, keen and flaming, for a +3 total enhancement. The total upgrade costs would be 72,000 (+6 enchantment) minus 18,000 (+3 enchantment) = 54,000. The ego modifier goes from +3 to +6 based on the cost, a +3 increase in ego. The black blade's ego is now 17. This is hardly advanced mathematics.

D'arandriel |

Yes, those do. However, enchanting a sword as a regular magic item instead of adding extra intelligent item abilities is what I thought we were talking about.
I was talking about both situations. But at the end of the day, we are in agreement, the black blade is a magic item that can be enchanted/upgraded.

TGMaxMaxer |
It would be hard to balance it if you let normal crafting enhancements stack with the natural progression.
If the player wants abilities that aren't normally allowed, there is an already balanced option.
Several races/classes/feats/arcanas add options that can be put into weapons, if the one they want isn't there, either add it in as a GM or if you think it's too good, make a feat/arcana (functionally the same thing) that grants it.
Whether you can actually spend gold on it I don't think was considered when it was written, or it would have been spelled out, as it would seriously impact the "free" bonuses that blow the WBL out of the water, to say nothing of the ego conflict with an intelligent item.

D'arandriel |

It would be hard to balance it if you let normal crafting enhancements stack with the natural progression.
If the player wants abilities that aren't normally allowed, there is an already balanced option.
Several races/classes/feats/arcanas add options that can be put into weapons, if the one they want isn't there, either add it in as a GM or if you think it's too good, make a feat/arcana (functionally the same thing) that grants it.
Whether you can actually spend gold on it I don't think was considered when it was written, or it would have been spelled out, as it would seriously impact the "free" bonuses that blow the WBL out of the water, to say nothing of the ego conflict with an intelligent item.
The only argument against enchanting a black blade seems to be a perceived imbalance. The game is already inherently unbalanced. Certain classes will always be "better" than other classes, some feats are clearly "superior" to other feats, etc. At the end of the day, it's a magic weapon, and I have not seen a good argument to not allow a black blade (which is a magic weapon) to be enchanted.

Hawktitan |

A Black Blade can not be enchanted. PFS doesn't allow it, the ego of the blade is non-standard and the enchant price would change throughout the life of the blade.
I'd allow it as a GM but I would require the player pay the difference everytime the sword goes up a level. Otherwise enchanting the sword early is WAY better then enchanting it late.

Buri |

Saying PFS doesn't allow something it already doesn't allow is a pointless argument to make. Also saying something can not be done because you can't do it in PFS is simply senseless. That would mean no one can scribe a scroll since that's not allowed in PFS which, I would hope we all know, is absurd.