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I'm not a big fan of riddles but I tned to put one in every few sessions as my group seems to enjoy them. But I like riddles to be in that Goldiocks group: Too easy and they are boring....too hard and the group gets discouraged and perhaps dead if the consequences warrent it.
How about this one:
The group (5 characters all at Level 5) advances into a 30 by 30 room and the door seals shut behind them before they can spike it. It, and the far door, are beyond the Rogue's abilities.
A voice announces: "An Elf was slain. There are four suspects.
The Human claims the Gnome is guilty.
The Gnome says the Dwarf did it.
The Halfling swears he didn't kill the Elf.
The Dwarf says the Gnome is lying.
If only one of these speaks the truth, who killed the Elf? You must name the murderer AND state which one speaks the truth. Or else."
If the party fails to come up with the killer AND the truth teller they are subject to a punishment I have yet to come up with. Any thoughts on that as well?
Cheers!
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I don't think the riddle is too hard or too easy unless they know the trick.
However, the set up seems really contrived and immersion breaking.
I don't think the riddle is too hard or too easy unless they know the trick.
However, the set up seems really contrived and immersion breaking.
A good point. Perhaps it would be better if I used the PC's names themselves as the victim and suspects. Considering they are in a dungeon that has been empty since the Age of Dreams, that would really fry their noodles.
Initially I suspected that Dwarf bludgeoned Elf to death with Gnome and Halfling is saying truth.
Took me quite long to solve because I missed the line that only one is speaking the truth.
Just drop a Sphinx in there and tell the riddle. Need a bigger room, though. Sphinxes are known for riddles. Get it right, easy CR 6 encounter. Get it wrong, "oh crap, a CR 6 encounter!"
The riddle wasn't super-hard.
TheRedArmy's sphinx idea is a good one, but that's what sphinxes are for. If you think a sphinx would be too hard or easy, etch the riddle on a golem of some type. If the PCs fail to solve it, they fight and the key is in the golem-rubble. If they succeed, the Golem opens the door.
Heresy and sacrilege! You stole this from the Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind!
Or any Professor Layton game. They always have one puzzle just like this. Usually more tame like "Who stole the pie" or some such.
EDIT: Placed a period where I had a question mark.
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Heresy and sacrilege! You stole this from the Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind!
The problem with Riddles (at least now) is that they come from a game and I don't think some people are prepared for that.
I for one had no clue about this puzzle. I could have copied it down and read it all day and never would have gotten it, yet my Monk who has a Wisdom of 20 should have had no problem with this. The moment a GM pulls out something like this I would have pulled out a 'Jack O'Neill' "...I got nothing..." and if that cost me my character's life I would have been kind of mad. When the Player's too stupid for something that the Character knows very well, the GM should ask for a dice roll instead of Role Playing.
I for one had no clue about this puzzle. I could have copied it down and read it all day and never would have gotten it, yet my Monk who has a Wisdom of 20 should have had no problem with this. The moment a GM pulls out something like this I would have pulled out a 'Jack O'Neill' "...I got nothing..." and if that cost me my character's life I would have been kind of mad. When the Player's too stupid for something that the Character knows very well, the GM should ask for a dice roll instead of Role Playing.
Let's say you get into a fight, and you really want to flank that one orc over there without provoking an opportunity attack. You're playing a fighter, so of course this is your element. Your character would definitely know how to do it. If you're bad at tactical movement, can you roll a die and have your character automatically find the right path and flank?
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A gnome, a halfling and an elf were discussing Mok's collection of masterwork great axes.
Halfling: "Mok has at least 15 axes,"
Elf: "Nah, Mok has fewer than 15 axes."
Gnome: "Well, Mok has at least one ax."
Exactly one of them was right. Which one was right? How many axes does Mok own?
(Shamelessly stolen from Car Talk)
The riddle is of perfect difficulty imo. Though I dislike riddles in my RPGs in general because they test my personal intellect and not those of the super intelligent wizard that I am portraying, which takes the role out of role playing.
Riddles are really better mechanics for video games.
I for one had no clue about this puzzle. I could have copied it down and read it all day and never would have gotten it, yet my Monk who has a Wisdom of 20 should have had no problem with this. The moment a GM pulls out something like this I would have pulled out a 'Jack O'Neill' "...I got nothing..." and if that cost me my character's life I would have been kind of mad. When the Player's too stupid for something that the Character knows very well, the GM should ask for a dice roll instead of Role Playing.Let's say you get into a fight, and you really want to flank that one orc over there without provoking an opportunity attack. You're playing a fighter, so of course this is your element. Your character would definitely know how to do it. If you're bad at tactical movement, can you roll a die and have your character automatically find the right path and flank?
It's not a question if the fighter gets that die roll, of coarse he would. The situation above is Roleplaying a riddle and this has been argued before. I don't remember the outcome. Players shouldn't have to roleplay a situation if they don't know what to do. Heck, I don't know what the above GM would do in such a situation.
I remember trying to run a dungeon full of simple riddles (simple for me since I knew I could answer them). The players just looked at me like I killed the party or something. I ended up pulling all the riddles and ran it normally.
All I think is that Roleplaying isn't the end all means of playing the game. If the riddle thing doesn't work, take it out.
As long as you also give the players a roll or a series of rolls, to solve the riddle, it's fine. Always keep in mind that because the player can't do it, doesn't mean that the character can't do it and vice versa.
Also get rid of the whole "It, and the far door, are beyond the Rogue's abilities", give a DC like normal, if you have to set the DC beyond what the group can achieve at the time but not simply say "the doors can't be opened". Also be prepared for the possibility of just breaking down the door.
Puzzle rooms are awesome things, mate. Keep with it and throw one in every dungeon you run, no matter what the naysayers say.
Here's a favorite of my grandmother's. She promised to come to me in a dream and remind me of the answer if I ever forgot and asked for help at her grave.
Born without a mother,
Born without a father,
Born without skin or bone,
Squawked once and never squawked again.
A: A fart.
Yes, my grandmother was awesome.
Edit: Oh, and I have a free product on rpgnow.com that details a particularly vicious lights-out variant and a ruleset for integrating it into a dungeon boss fight if you want to go with some sort of cheesy Zelda-vibe.
Didn't read the other post but: As soon as you said, only one could be telling the truth and then had two guys say the same one is lying -- they both had to be lying.
It all comes together after that. Takes maybe a minute. At a table with 4 others interjecting, maybe less - maybe more.
I could have said it better for sure.
If only one of these speaks the truth:
The Dwarf and Gnomes claims oppose each other. One is true. The other is not. All others must therefore be lying...including the guilty Halfling.
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The trap inherent to giving riddles is that you are shifting the challenge from the character to the player. This actually is meta gaming since you are expecting the player to solve this in game challenge by using his own wits instead of his characters. As long as you give the option for the character to still succeed with dice rolls and the player answering is a short cut things should work out fine. Be careful not to penalize a player that answers even if his character may not have the appropriate mental stats because by giving a riddle that the players have to solve you as the GM have removed their characters from the equation.
A little easy. Once you know that most are lying I just assumed them all to by liars, looked for the most exclusive claim "If the halfling is lying no one else could be the murderer" and then tried to see if you could make one and only one tell the truth with that premise. It took twice as long to read as to solve.
I kind of like riddles. In PFS they sometimes put them in, but they are not always clear. I think a riddle should make perfect sense once you are done, like this one does. Some of the PFS ones, even after they are solved you can look at it and say "there are some extremely loose connections between puzzle and answer."
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The Human claims the Gnome is guilty.
The Gnome says the Dwarf did it.
The Halfling swears he didn't kill the Elf.
The Dwarf says the Gnome is lying.
If only one of these speaks the truth, who killed the Elf? You must name the murderer AND state which one speaks the truth. Or else."
1. Suppose the human is telling the truth.
a. The gnome is guilty. (human)
b. Te dwarf is not guilty. (gnome)
c. The halfling is guilty. (halfling)
CONTRADICTION
d. (dwarf)
2. Suppose the gnome is telling the truth.
a. The gnome is not guilty. (human)
b. The dwarf is guilty. (gnome)
c. The halfling is guilty. (halfling)
CONTRADICTION
d. (dwarf)
3. Suppose the halfling is telling the truth.
a. The gnome is not guilty. (human)
b. The dwarf is not guilty. (gnome)
c. The halfling is not guilty. (halfling)
d. The gnome is telling the truth. (dwarf)
CONTRADICTION
4. Suppose the dwarf is telling the truth.
a. The gnome is not guilty. (human)
b. The dwarf is not guilty. (gnome)
c. The halfling is guilty. (halfling)
d. The gnome is lying. (dwarf)
NO CONTRADICTION
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I've always wanted to have a temple or dungeon that was filled with complex puzzles and traps. But they were designed by a very slow race, mentally, so none of them make any sense. It's like a dungeon designed by the Home Alone kid.
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The biggest problem with riddles in games is that most riddles are variations on riddles that have already been in joke books or other games or movies long before. If anyone at the table has heard that one before, the puzzle is no challenge at all.
The best way to make up a riddle is to make one up from scratch, using creative writing to camouflage the fact that it's actually a math problem, or a logic problem, or a play on words. This is quite difficult, and that's why most GM's don't do it.
The key os to know your players. If they like riddles as much as you say they do, there's probably someone at the table who's read that same riddle in a joke book and will remember the answer easily. But if they like riddles, maybe they don't so much like who-done-its or mystery novels? An old Encyclopedia Brown puzzler with a few names changed might stump them.
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The trap inherent to giving riddles is that you are shifting the challenge from the character to the player.
You say that this is the trap of riddles--I say this is the best part of them.
As I hinted at above, the PCs do not move themselves around the battlegrid and decide the most effective attacks to use or spells to cast, the players do that. The characters do not decide what feat they will take next or what magic item is optimal for their budget--players do that, too.
There is nothing wrong with that--it doesn't make the game more or less legitimate or more or less "real roleplaying" because the player is making decisions and solving puzzles.
It just always cracks me up when I see people whining, "But my Wizard is smarter than me, can't he solve that riddle?" but nobody ever says, "But my wizard is smarter than me, can't he choose what spells to cast each round of combat and place them optimally?"
The real complaint here is, "I don't like riddles." Nothing more, nothing less.
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It just always cracks me up when I see people whining, "But my Wizard is smarter than me, can't he solve that riddle?" but nobody ever says, "But my wizard is smarter than me, can't he choose what spells to cast each round of combat and place them optimally?"
The real complaint here is, "I don't like riddles." Nothing more, nothing less.
I expect then that you would allow a riddle-lover to enjoy this part and provide the solution even if his PC has INT 5 (or even lower), right ?
42.
42.
47.
(Adjusted for inflation)
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I think this riddle is pretty good, because it can be solved with brute force - for each suspect, just ask "what if this one is telling the truth?" and eventually you'll be able to puzzle out the answer. Open-ended riddles are much more tricky than multiple choice.
And I like the guardian golem idea. Let it threaten to come to life if they try to pick the lock or smash the door, or even put an "I give up" button on it that just starts the fight anyway.
The trap inherent to giving riddles is that you are shifting the challenge from the character to the player.You say that this is the trap of riddles--I say this is the best part of them.
As I hinted at above, the PCs do not move themselves around the battlegrid and decide the most effective attacks to use or spells to cast, the players do that. The characters do not decide what feat they will take next or what magic item is optimal for their budget--players do that, too.
There is nothing wrong with that--it doesn't make the game more or less legitimate or more or less "real roleplaying" because the player is making decisions and solving puzzles.
It just always cracks me up when I see people whining, "But my Wizard is smarter than me, can't he solve that riddle?" but nobody ever says, "But my wizard is smarter than me, can't he choose what spells to cast each round of combat and place them optimally?"
The real complaint here is, "I don't like riddles." Nothing more, nothing less.
I disagree.
When playing a PC, I try to maneuver them in a way which I think makes sense. My raging barbarians don't set up careful flanks, for instance. I often make non-optimal choices because they are 'in character' (I've actually been - many moons ago - in the situation in which I knew the answer to a riddle but didn't offer it up as I was playing a fairly dumb character).
If someone wants to play a tactical genius... well, they should be good at that sort of thing and have a really good handle on the rules. Otherwise they won't be able to portray such a character very effectively.
Just as socially awkward people who aren't terribly good speakers should probably not play diplomancer types. It breaks immersion.
When I want to use something like a riddle, I have opted to use 4e style skill challenges (simulating the PCs discussing the riddle and using their intelligence, intuition [wis], and relevant knowledges to determine the answer).
This is, of course, just one play style. I won't fault anyone for liking another style. I do take issue with the idea that the only reason someone wouldn't like riddles in their RPGs is because they just don't like RPGs (I would offer myself as an example).
A gnome, a halfling and an elf were discussing Mok's collection of masterwork great axes.
Halfling: "Mok has at least 15 axes,"
Elf: "Nah, Mok has fewer than 15 axes."
Gnome: "Well, Mok has at least one ax."
Exactly one of them was right. Which one was right? How many axes does Mok own?(Shamelessly stolen from Car Talk)
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The elf committed suicide obviously!
A gnome, a halfling and an elf were discussing Mok's collection of masterwork great axes.
Halfling: "Mok has at least 15 axes,"
Elf: "Nah, Mok has fewer than 15 axes."
Gnome: "Well, Mok has at least one ax."
Exactly one of them was right. Which one was right? How many axes does Mok own?(Shamelessly stolen from Car Talk)
It's
** spoiler omitted **
right?
Half right.
but you knew that.
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If your players are having trouble with a riddle that their supergenius characters ought to be able to get, try having them make a INT or WIS check with a reasonable DC and if they make it, give them a pre-written hint. If that doesn't work, have them make another check, maybe a little harder, and get another hint.
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I expect then that you would allow a riddle-lover to enjoy this part and provide the solution even if his PC has INT 5 (or even lower), right ?
Yes, just like I let level 1 barbarians avoid AoOs and Int-dumped Sorcerers can know how to aim fireballs without burning allies.
It is a player challenge, not a character challenge, and I am ok with that.
On another level, though, I don't necessarily think Intelligence always helps with riddles. It's very possible to over think things and miss a simple answer. Puzzles and riddles are not about pure intellectual power, they are about thinking sideways. I don't think there's an attribute for that, nor should there be. I don't find anything immersion breaking about an Int 7 Barbarian solving a riddle an Int 22 Wizard couldn't figure out.
These kind of puzzles are old and have numerous variations. I wouldn't copy one verbatim from a popular game though. A quick google search or run to the local library should give you plenty of alternatives. For it being too easy or too hard, I found it a little on the easy side, but I am into puzzles. If you had puzzles before ask your players if they found those too hard or too easy and choose future ones based on that.
Pertaining to the players solving the riddle vs the characters solving it, I though of middle ground approach. You can have several riddles of different difficulties. Depending on how they roll you give them an easier puzzle. Also sometimes puzzles will have hints listed and you can reward high rolls with more and more hints
Ask yourself: Why is the riddle room there? Is it protecting something? Why would a dungeon designer make the answer guessable? He presumably only wants people who he knows to get in. So have the "answer" be something totally random. Like "tomato". Every time the players answer wrong, something minor happens, but it escalates each time.
The true solution would be to use their character abilities to find the answer: Maybe they can cast Speak With Dead on a nearby corpse. Or there is a slip of paper where someone wrote the password earlier in the dungeon. Or maybe they can use Detect Magic to reveal an invisible arcane mark a foolish minion used to record the password, since they had a bad memory. Heck, the party can use their adamantium pick axe to tunnel through the door.
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The true solution would be to use their character abilities to find the answer: Maybe they can cast Speak With Dead on a nearby corpse. Or there is a slip of paper where someone wrote the password earlier in the dungeon. Or maybe they can use Detect Magic to reveal an invisible arcane mark a foolish minion used to record the password, since they had a bad memory. Heck, the party can use their adamantium pick axe to tunnel through the door.
I hate this kind of situation, because there is usually only one way to get out, usually really not obvious (except to the GM of course) and/or that escapes you because you did not roll high enough on your skill check.
The party ends up being punished (sometimes even killed) for not being able to read the GM's mind.
The true solution would be to use their character abilities to find the answer: Maybe they can cast Speak With Dead on a nearby corpse. Or there is a slip of paper where someone wrote the password earlier in the dungeon. Or maybe they can use Detect Magic to reveal an invisible arcane mark a foolish minion used to record the password, since they had a bad memory. Heck, the party can use their adamantium pick axe to tunnel through the door.I hate this kind of situation, because there is usually only one way to get out, usually really not obvious (except to the GM of course) and/or that escapes you because you did not roll high enough on your skill check.
The party ends up being punished (sometimes even killed) for not being able to read the GM's mind.
I meant to use some combination of those options. Plus there is always the brute-force option.