Goblin Squad Member
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To attempt to build on Bringslite's insight: Isn't the random selection acting to increase the "sink" also ensuring a serious "looting economy" does not grow out of control? IE looting is secondary to other economic gains from bandit operations ie traders transporting than what they wear?
edit: Oops, Hobs already pointed this out. :)
pps: What is the RP reason for equipment to be removed? Do items have a magical connection aside from threading that deems them lost?
The item destruction sink could be caused by cargo / inventory items being left behind because they exceeded the bandits' carrying capacity.
Items can also be removed from the economy by other means as well. I have often argued that a bandits hideout should, have consumption needs that will absorb some of those resources that we steal. You may argue that this is a zero net gain, and that is true, but the activity to acquire it is as well.
I can spend one hour harvesting 100 cord of wood.
I can spend one hour stealing 100 cord of wood.
My Hideout needs 100 cord of wood.
The settlement needs 100 cord of wood.
Different play styles support, same gains made, same risks experienced.
For every one caravan we capture, dozens or more will get beyond our grasp. I like to think of it with this analogy:
When you see a police officer on the highway, and he has pulled someone over. Do you not think, "At least it wasn't me"? You might then think, "that is one less cop on the road to pull me over, so I can go 65 in a 55 now".
There will always be more travelers than bandits to catch them. Merchants will always be far wealthier than bandits. Reading the decent ing opinions, it affirms my argument that merchants (especially pve minded ones) are far greedier than bandits. They do not want to protect themselves from loss, they want to rely on game mechanics to do it for them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. This presumes that the courier would be so cowardly as to hand it over when confronted. Poor choice of couriers if this is the case.
You could also have a courier that chooses to destroy it all rather than give bandits a portion.
Even more of a poor choice of couriers in my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
1. If all it takes is for some poor (in style) RPer to remake it after it's been stolen, or make a copy of it to seem as if they've captured it, I don't think they're the type of RPer I want to play with.
2. This presumes that the courier would be so cowardly as to hand it over when confronted. Poor choice of couriers if this is the case.
I agree that #1 is a poor RP solution. Only a practical one. In the case of #2, it seems that the courier dying, and thus likely losing the item to destruction, is a poor plot/story development.
We come down to the same base problem. We all want what we feel makes sense to our own style of play or even in general. We all want complex programming to provide these things. We all want EE to be as like the "finished product" as possible. We all want a $500 million dollar game being made on a miniscule budget. And finally, we all want EE "Soonest" or even yesterday. Not all of those things are compatible.
Maybe work the RP plots and conditions and the bandit risk/reward around the game mechanics instead of asking for the moon and the stars to satisfy what makes more sense in a Fantasy game. You have mentioned that you did just fine in UO without much RP support.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's the info on the Pathfinder Online Talk at PaizCon:
PaizoCon 2013: Inside Pathfinder Online
Oddly, I never noticed Goblinworks is one word, before.Speakers: Lisa Stevens, Ryan Dancey
This winter, video game studio Goblinworks raised $1.4 million on Kickstarter to fund development of a fantasy sandbox MMO set in the heart of the Pathfinder world. Join the Goblinworks team for an overview of progress so far, including behind-the-scenes graphics and in-game footage highlighting the work in progress. Plus, find out how YOU can get involved charting the future of Pathfinder Online!
This sounds absolutely fantastic. I know I will be constantly updating the forums tomorrow for a link to a video.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
I was already to reply, but here we are again (posters in general...not you and I), side-tracking a thread from it's main topic because Ryan used looting in an example to explain which quality materials would be better than others. I somehow doubt he meant that to become the focus of this blog thread.
I'll PM you my response.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
I was already to reply, but here we are again (posters in general...not you and I), side-tracking a thread from it's main topic because Ryan used looting in an example to explain which quality materials would be better than others. I somehow doubt he meant that to become the focus of this blog thread.
I'll PM you my response.
*Hugs for Hobs*
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
I was already to reply, but here we are again (posters in general...not you and I), side-tracking a thread from it's main topic because Ryan used looting in an example to explain which quality materials would be better than others. I somehow doubt he meant that to become the focus of this blog thread.
I'll PM you my response.
I disagree that it s off topic. It is a discussion based on both Harvesting resources and Consumption of resources. Two major sections of the Dev Blog.
Just as I as a bandit will focus on those two parts, a crafter will focus on the other sections of the Dev Blog. If you wish to discuss the impact on crafting, please do so.
The only derails of the thread are the posts concerning the GW Help Wanted announcement and the PaizoCon posting. Those have nothing to do with the Dev Blog.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
1. If all it takes is for some poor (in style) RPer to remake it after it's been stolen, or make a copy of it to seem as if they've captured it, I don't think they're the type of RPer I want to play with.
2. This presumes that the courier would be so cowardly as to hand it over when confronted. Poor choice of couriers if this is the case.
I think our #1 goal as RP'ers in PFO is to integrate the RP into the things that are actually happening in game. We have actual war councils that matter and assassinations and mercenary work to do and RP around. We won't be forced into RP'ing "set pieces" and I think the RP sword you are talking about falls into that category.
Integration, not separate RP instances.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Avari3,
I used RP as an example because in RP, we can give any object extra meaning, and thus, a reason to want to protect it and to steal it regardless of it's actual game value. My point was, that if enemies of the courier with the sword killed the courier, it should not be unrealistic for them to expect to be able to loot the item of their interest from the corpse. This isn't my assertion only for RPers, but for anyone. If you're going to limit looting to a "portion" of the corpse's inventory, that's fine (I understand the provided reasons, though I've played games with no limits on looting and still had fun there as well), but why is the looter not allowed to choose which few items those are?
Your suggested #1 goal as a RPer in PFO makes it sound like PvP (the examples you gave are all PvP oriented) should be the focus of PFO RP. On the flip side, there is nothing in any of those (war councils, assassinations, or mercenary work) that can't be practiced with no RP involved at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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why do we have to be artificially limited in our reward by unexplainable "randomness" in what we can loot?Because we, who are being robbed, want to stick it to the bandits even after they have defeated us.
Also In my eyes taking away a bandits reward by ingame means ( random loot selection ) is exactly the same as taking away a merchants reward by ingame means ( robbing him )
I agree with Papaver on this,
though Bluddwolf did offer a nice counter proposal in an earlier post,....
My proposal:
The more time a bandit / looter spends searching through his/her victim's belongings, the more of the items are revealed.
I am choosing to increase my risk be remaining longer at the scene of the crime, but I am also increasing my chance for greater reward.
I can take away whatever I can carry (this might account for the "only a portion" comment), and the rest will be destroyed.
What some of you are forgetting is that GW is hoping to use bandits to help regulate the economy. That does not happen if we have little incentive to participate in the act of banditry to start with.
We want a reasonable risk vs. reward trade off. Very early in this Blog, Ryan stated that we would have choice in what we loot. I don't see why that is such a scary concept for some. WE bandits have already assumed the risk of attacking; overcome that risk in defeating our opponent; why do we have to be artificially limited in our reward by unexplainable "randomness" in what we can loot?
But the time spent verses reward here would need major tweaking, and would likely need to be logarithmic. Like for each new item you get to search for, it takes more than 4 times the previous time.
i.e.
the first new item takes 1 minute.
the second new item takes 4 minutes plus the previous 1 minute, total 5 minutes
the third new item takes 16 minutes (plus the time for the previous items, Total 21 minutes here) etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Steven Cheney has posted earlier in this thread that one of the reasons for an EVE style crafting system is to provide a more realistic portrayal of time - items cannot be banged out in a matter of seconds or minutes - so refining/crafting will require planning and time. This both helps slow down possible market flooding and stops players from instantly restocking things they're low on (no whipping up a batch of whatever you're running out of in the middle of a siege, for example).
However, as shown in the first bold text, I've never seen the time element of having to wait for the refining/crafting facility to be available. Does this mean you'll have to wait until the last person is finished loading their order, or until their job is complete? As earlier described, the completing time might be long enough to allow you to go adventure. That's an awfully long wait for the next guy in line. If the latter is the case, then choosing how many refining/crafting facilities a player settlement invests in will be as important a decision as which trainers they "hire" and how much of that training time is offered to those outside their settlement.
Second, I've never experienced a fee for refining/crafting. True, in many MMOs, refining/crafting might involve the purchase of NPC...
The EVE crafting system has specific buildings with the capability to craft and each building has a fixed amount of production lines. If you're allowed to use that building, you select a production line and what you're crafting (you need to have all components at that building of course). There is a small gold fee for using the building's equipment to get your stuff crafted. You can only see the availability of lines when you're at the building, though trainable skills will let you know facilities' availability from incrementally greater distances and start jobs there remotely (provided the materials are already physically on-hand there). And receive finished products remotely to free up crafting ability, because a crafter has a limited number of jobs they can have queued/running simultaneously.
If all the production lines are in use, your job can enter a queue in one specific line, usually the one with the shortest wait. That line will complete all its jobs nonstop in order and you can look up when your job will be completed to pick it up there. You don't have to interact with it further until it's ready for pick-up.
In EVE, the safest public NPC crafting buildings can have 2 or 3 week waits before your job can start, and even going out to dangerous territory for NPC crafting buildings doesn't guarantee waits of less than 5 days before your thing STARTS. Or your guild or an individual can have their own private crafting place and the waits are much shorter in return for the expense of keeping the building maintained.
They haven't said how PFO might differ from EVE in action but did that answer all your questions about what Steven Cheney was referencing?
EDIT: Very dated blogs mentioned a crafter might be called back to the forge in the middle of a job to do something skill-related or provide materials etc. so that would be one big difference from EVEs purely start then pick-up system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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and stream History Channel documentary footage of medieval crafting to visualize yourself making the gear.
if you log out, or don't click a button on the screen every thirty seconds, the gear is ruined of course.
What about some urchins*, in every factory, to get themselves trapped in the machinery?
*By this I mean poor workhouse children, not spiky sea creatures.**
**Though that would be amusing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That might be an exaggeration, but I bet after Bludd left the baby wouldn't have any candy.Bludd,
You would find a way to make knitting a baby blanket about banditry and looting. :P
Just in case people think I was actually meaning to start some type of flame-war with our resident bandit, I think Bludd knows that's not the case. We've talked numerous times on PFO Fan TS and now play once a week together with a group in LOTRO. I appreciate anyone who is willing to play the seedier roles in an MMO, and he and I are actually in agreement on the whole looting issue...I just don't post about as much as he does. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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That might be an exaggeration, but I bet after Bludd left the baby wouldn't have any candy.Bludd,
You would find a way to make knitting a baby blanket about banditry and looting. :P
And certainly not the blanket either!
Although I was going to avoid the obvious, I think I will go for it anyway.
What Hobs is doing here is deflecting from the argument that i made that this Dev Blog (Harvesting and Consumption)has very much to do with banditry. He does it in a playful way of saying I would look turn every argument into that, and for this character's perspective, yes that is true.
It does not delegitimize my argument that this dev Blog does in fact pertain to banditry in some ways.
Knitting Baby Blankets.....
Resources needed: iron (needles), cotton (thread), wool
Point of Entry of Resources: Mine, Plantation, Farm
Transportation Needed: Yes
Opportunities for Banditry: At Resource POE; Transport to Crafting Center; Transport to Market; From the hands of the baby (if not threaded, LOL, pun intended).
Risk: Minimal
Reward: Minimal
Reputation for being an Evil Bastid!....Priceless
yeah... I even stole that too!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Proxima Sin,
Thank you. As for the times involved, perhaps PFO processing times will be shorter since we'll have a smaller population for some time, and those numbers will be spread even thinner between settlements and starter towns. Though I'm not the crafting type, I think I would basically give up on a crafting system where one job took weeks to complete.
Though mentioned before in other threads, I still like the idea that if you wish to stay and personally handle the process, that it would provide some benefit (maker's mark, quality boost, processing time buff, etc.). I know many players who play crafters enjoy the feel of being involved in the creating process.
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Goblin Squad Member
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pps: What is the RP reason for equipment to be removed? Do items have a magical connection aside from threading that deems them lost?
The item destruction sink could be caused by cargo / inventory items being left behind because they exceeded the bandits' carrying capacity.
Or because some chump fireballed it?
I haven't read the blog yet, but is there anything in there about items and materials being removed from the economy due to accidental damage, or normal wear and tear?
i.e. a certain minimum amount of harvesting and crafting being required to stand still?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Proxima Sin,
Thank you. As for the times involved, perhaps PFO processing times will be shorter since we'll have a smaller population for some time, and those numbers will be spread even thinner between settlements and starter towns. Though I'm not the crafting type, I think I would basically give up on a crafting system where one job took weeks to complete.
The longest times were in the safe areas; probably newbies testing the water or very casual crafters that didn't care about the times. Most serious crafting is done in private guild facilities behind gigantic, defended, shields (walls?).
Also the thing being made affects the time. A simple ship component can be minutes each, a small ship a few hours each, large or complicated (T2) ships several days each. The analogy I think carries over into a simple utility potion or salvage kits, average throw-away level armor for risky adventures, or highly keyworded +5 weapons and armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Proxima Sin,
I had a hunch that the length of production was incumbent upon the complexity of the item being manufactured.
If I learn to craft anything, it will be buildings. Though I don't plan to be a member of a settlement, I would gladly offer my skills to help settlements create buildings. I wonder how the previous blog and this latest one merge...will component parts for a building be crafted like normal crafted items and then the worksite for the building then operate as a "crafting station" where those components are added and compared against the player workforce's skills?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Avari3,
I used RP as an example because in RP, we can give any object extra meaning, and thus, a reason to want to protect it and to steal it regardless of it's actual game value. My point was, that if enemies of the courier with the sword killed the courier, it should not be unrealistic for them to expect to be able to loot the item of their interest from the corpse. This isn't my assertion only for RPers, but for anyone. If you're going to limit looting to a "portion" of the corpse's inventory, that's fine (I understand the provided reasons, though I've played games with no limits on looting and still had fun there as well), but why is the looter not allowed to choose which few items those are?
Ah, Ok. I think option looting is one of those things that actually needs to be play tested in game and crowdforged. But yeah your suggestion on time/options is nice.
Your suggested #1 goal as a RPer in PFO makes it sound like PvP (the examples you gave are all PvP oriented) should be the focus of PFO RP. On the flip side, there is nothing in any of those (war councils, assassinations, or mercenary work) that can't be practiced with no RP involved at all.
Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. RP should be "meaningful player to player interactions". So most of it should revolve around the "meaningful player to player interactions" of the game mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I rememeber that as the best days ever in Asheron's Call 2. When they instituted consignment shops (a new concept in MMOs in 2004, pre-WoW) all they gave us were NPCs that told us how many of what items were needed to build each building and new recipes in our craft lists. It was up to us to get those materials. You had to refine X into wooden beams and Y into window panes and the window panes had to be combined with two other things to make a full window. Windows and were very high level crafting but we didn't need as many as of the basics like planks and nails and dowels. Good times.
I'm on record 5 or 6 months ago saying I want to start by building buildings. And then when they're completed file a game petition to call them builts, because really... After those skills are as high as useful then the transport capital because those are the unglamorous backbone of all this player-driven economy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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avari3,
In a game where player choice seems to be a hallmark of it's design, you're saying that people should stick to RP that only deals with things like war councils, assassination, and mercenaries? I can think of many RP scenarios that are every bit as meaningful in player to player interactions and have nothing to do with any of those. In fact, how was my scenario of the courier and the enemies who jumped him not meaningful as RP? Because the cause of the conflict was not produced by the game? We are the content. Anything we create (within the scope of good RP taste) is valuable content.
Because the game is primarily advertised as being about settlement competition, this certainly shouldn't mean that settlement conflict is the only valid source of RP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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avari3,
In a game where player choice seems to be a hallmark of it's design, you're saying that people should stick to RP that only deals with things like war councils, assassination, and mercenaries? I can think of many RP scenarios that are every bit as meaningful in player to player interactions and have nothing to do with any of those. In fact, how was my scenario of the courier and the enemies who jumped him not meaningful as RP? Because the cause of the conflict was not produced by the game? We are the content. Anything we create (within the scope of good RP taste) is valuable content.
Because the game is primarily advertised as being about settlement competition, this certainly shouldn't mean that settlement conflict is the only valid source of RP.
That's not what I meant.
Actually, yes, that's exactly what I meant.
Not to say there isn't room for other stuff on the side, but the primary engines of roleplay should be driven by the game mechanics. The further away you get from the game mechanics, the more you push the roleplay into a secluded niche that is both inaccessible and delusionary.
This has been the problem with RP in a theme park MMO, there were very little meaningful game mechanics that could be RP'ed, forcing RP'ers into the dreaded "set piece" roleplay for meaningful conflict(the special rp sword).
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's not what I meant.Actually, yes, that's exactly what I meant.
Not to say there isn't room for other stuff on the side, but the primary engines of roleplay should be driven by the game mechanics. The further away you get from the game mechanics, the more you push the roleplay into a secluded niche that is both inaccessible and delusionary.
This has been the problem with RP in a theme park MMO, there were very little meaningful game mechanics that could be RP'ed, forcing RP'ers into the dreaded "set piece" roleplay for meaningful conflict(the special rp sword).
Yes, yes!
I have tried to get into RP in MMORPGs before but it felt so forced and unnatural (and pointless) when it didn't integrate at all with the "main" gameplay. Tavern RP can probably be very fun when it is a subset of "World RP" but as an isolated activity in an otherwise RP-unfriendly game - no thanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will always be more travelers than bandits to catch them.
I quite concerned this might not prove to be the case. There seem to be so very many people wanting to indulge their inner anarchist, nihilist, pyromaniac, etc. with some casual, anonymous on-line rapine.
It's always been, and will always be, easier to destroy than to create; some folks don't want to put in the effort. I'm dreading learning that my worst fears may prove insufficiently pessimistic.
I hold back hope, tucked away in her corner of my mental Pandora's Box.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will always be more travelers than bandits to catch them.I quite concerned this might not prove to be the case. There seem to be so very many people wanting to indulge their inner anarchist, nihilist, pyromaniac, etc. with some casual, anonymous on-line rapine.
It's always been, and will always be, easier to destroy than to create; some folks don't want to put in the effort. I'm dreading learning that my worst fears may prove insufficiently pessimistic.
I hold back hope, tucked away in her corner of my mental Pandora's Box.
I wanna party with YOU, Sunshine! But seriously, before we string together chains of speculation and get gloomy based on THAT, remember that contentious areas of the game mechanics-looting, pvp, crafting, pickpockets, stealthing, friendly fire, indeed everything-are subject to crowdforging. These things can be tweaked or changed outright. This is the huge advantage of an open development process; there's not going to be a 'Grand Opening' of a finished game that hasn't been thoroughly vetted by, well, us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Banditry will have costs that might drive the more 'casually Evil' players to reconsider a life of crime.
'Robin Hood' characters will likely restrict themselves to fully Evil Hexes/Groups to assault, while 'Bandits' will hit anybody they think they can get away with.
The 'Flags' we fly will have meanings long after the actions are done. Chaotic alignments might find it difficult to purchase training or supplies in Lawful Settlements, regardless of a shared 'Good' alignment. Bandits might be under Gib-On-Sight orders, simply because their particular pursuit of perfidious-ness makes the Powers-That-Be nervous.
On the other hand, Overly goody-two-shoes characters might not even be considered for running expensive but risky cargo. A by-the-books Merchant who might very well object to Slavery might be avoided by a Chaotic group looking to smuggle liberated Slaves out of a Hex due to his slavish devotion to the Local Laws, while an Evil but ultimately law-abiding Character might be denied access to specific Settlements due to his Evil alignment, despite how well he might follow the laws of the land.
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Goblin Squad Member
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avari3 & Wurner,
I really hate dragging this off on a tangent from the main point of the thread, but I'll give this one my try.
You mentioned unsatisfying RP in themeparks. The problem with RP in themepark MMOs is that they aren't really made for role-players, unless you only like playing the role you're told to play. Role-players want to create, to make their own stories, and know that their actions have meaningful, persistent impact upon the outcome of the story. Hard to do that when the game is based around playing the story that's already provided for you. In a sandbox, you still have game mechanics, but you also have more flexibility as to what you can create.
As far as game mechanics, I have no problem RPing with them. I've usually advised against RPing anything you can't actually "do" in-game, in that you end up looking rather silly when called out on it, but there is some wiggle room if players involved mutually agree to things that might go beyond the mechanics. At the same time, no game can provide for every player's creative vision, so I see nothing wrong with RPing story lines that aren't strictly tied to settlements, war, etc., simply because that's what most players will be doing.
Let's take the sword. I didn't say it's "extra meaning" included any abilities that aren't provided for by game mechanics, so I'm not sure how it became a dreaded "set piece". The player created history surrounding the sword could make it valuable enough to those involved to want to protect it or steal it. After all, many real world religions have supposed holy relics that have no scientific proof of their "power", yet many devout followers would kill to protect them. So again, having RPed importance doesn't have to have anything to do with RPed powers that are not supported by game mechanics.
Perhaps how you're used to RPing is also a difference in our perceptions of this discussion. In any game I play, I'm always in-character...I'm always role-playing. It's not something I make time for when I'm not doing something else, nor does it have to occur only under certain circumstances. I react to my surroundings as my character would - regardless of whether I'm with certain groups, regardless of the activity at hand, etc. It has very little to do with game mechanics, and though I try not RP something contrary to them, I don't allow my creativity be totally dictated by them either.
Finally, you make mention of what sounds like RP isolationism, whether forced on the RPers or chosen by them. In all the plots and story-arcs I've run in MMOs, I've never scripted their outcome or how others should RP, if they choose to get involved - and as for involvement, these plots and stories were always open to anyone who wanted to participate. All anyone had to do was decide to interact with those involved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the topic at hand, Crafting...
I don't believe, if the goal is for there to be a division of labor, this will be as hoped for in PFO.
Yes, the Harvester may very well be on person filling that role. A harvester will have to be skilled in harvesting, but also in some survival skills.
The Refiner and the Crafter might very well be one person. This is a sedentary role, and the person doing it will most likely wait for the materials to come to him. He might also choose to learn refining skills, along with his one specialized crafting area, in order to cut out one of the "middle men".
The Crafter might also choose to cut out the merchant, by selling his own wares locally. But, if he can turn a better profit by selling abroad, then a merchant will be brought into the process.
The merchant will buy local, and then look to transport the items to a market where the demand and profit is higher. The merchant, much like the harvester, will not only have to have professional skills, but survival skills as well.
A few years down the road, there will be players who develop a character that has a vertically integrated system covering from natural resource to sale, and no middle men in between.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm always role-playing. It's not something I make time for when I'm not doing something else, nor does it have to occur only under certain circumstances. I react to my surroundings as my character would - regardless of whether I'm with certain groups, regardless of the activity at hand, etc. It has very little to do with game mechanics, and though I try not RP something contrary to them, I don't allow my creativity be totally dictated by them either.
A statement after my own heart.
I think that there should be a game mechanism to incorporate an object connected to player/character RP story some way into PFO. In particular, an option where GW can be petitioned to gain for a particular object immunity from destruction through banditry. This would in essence create a unique game object that could be fought over just as a "settlement artifice" would be. I do not know how this could be done in a balanced way, but it would gain the ability for players to creat environment altering impact other than settlements and buildings at PoI.For example, when the courier (from @Hobs example) is robbed, the object could vanish as if destroyed (if not looted), only to reappear at a later date in the general vicinity, possibly as a monster drop. The penalty for being such an object could be that it can not ever be threaded. It could be that a player (not a character) can only create one such item in their entire PFO play. Such an item could even be up to crowdforging voting to be allowed to exist (although that may be going a little too far). It would have to have a unique identifying mark and possibly a unique description. This could add incredible depth to the PFO lore and create excellent reasons for character conflict, the "content" of PFO.
Holy War, anyone?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of "Corner Stones" were brought up before and are a part of both fictional and non fictional conflicts.
The ability to craft unique items is something that I think would enhance PFO greatly. Of course there will be whiners, who don't have it, but there will always be whiners and whiners be damned. This will be something that is a benefit to the game, and not necessarily for the person that possesses it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Harad,
I like the concept, but I fear for a world filled with a glut of "special" named items.
I think it would be cool if such items were placed in the world by GW. This would limit how many of these items were present in the world and make certain it's "flavor" was in keeping with PFO lore (no swords of "Awsome Wanging"...sorry Pagan)
To keep the item "in play" in the world, I would flesh out your list of "restrictions" this way:
1. These items cannot be threaded.
2. These items, given their limited number, might (notice I said might...I know how much Ryan dislikes this option) remain on the ground once the corpse disappears and all unclaimed items are destroyed. Having it be lying there in the field to be claimed by a hapless passerby seems great to me. If limited, so as not to stress out the server, this might be an easier way for the server to keep track of it than having to place it somewhere else (like a nearby escalation or dungeon).
3. These items cannot be placed in storage or locked down in a building. Like too many rare items in other games, unique items often end up stored in collectors' bank vaults.
4. To gain the abilities of the item, it must be equipped (so it does you no good to stash it away on an alt that's always kept logged off so you don't lose it). I was originally going to say that it should have no actual power, but then there's no incentive as the owner to risk having it out in the world, and an alt could be used as "storage".
These items would function similar to artifacts, in that they could change hands if the owner was conquered. Also like artifacts, they might be a reason to go to war....certainly a reason for assassination, banditry when traveling with it, etc. These could be a standard that gave bonuses to morale or fighting prowess when engaged in formation combat, a special elemental artifact that boosted output of a particular harvesting camp, etc. Like artifacts, something that benefited a large number of people might be better than an item that only benefits the owner.
Again, just ideas.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Those who support unique items: how many should there be, as a ratio to total active players? As high as one in twenty, and still most small groups have none, while large groups have so many that they become commodities.
Make it much lower, and pretty soon a statistically insignificant number of people have even seen one, while the largest groups closely monitor them.
Where do y'all think the sweet spot is?
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I do like the idea of having the option to be a bandit. I even like the idea that I might have to deal with bandits, as awful as that will be for my business.
We have several goals in the banditry aspect:
1. Allow bandits to get stuff to support themselves.
2. Allow for the destruction of some un-threaded items in order to create an economy.
I have a few ideas that will accomplish both of these.
The bandit does what he does and is left with a corpse full of goodies on the ground in front of him and an angry player who may be coming for some revenge.
The corpse should never just disappear immediately when looted; that negates the conflict between the players. If the bandit loots and the corpse disappears then one guy is angry and poor while another guy is richer and happy. The only reason at that point for them to interact would be for revenge, which just isn't enough in my mind.
It should take some time to loot an item. I'd say ten seconds. The bandit must keep the window open to loot. Multiple bandits can loot the same corpse at the same time, each taking whatever they like as fast as they can. At some point the corpse begins to decay, destroying one random item from the corpse every five or ten seconds until everything is gone or the player who owns the corpse returns to it. The corpse decay could start either as soon as looting starts or a few second in, or when the loot window is closed.
It gives the player the option of running back to the corpse with friends to chase you away and get whatever remains instead of all of it just being instantly gone. This would be especially worth it if you were carrying an especially large load.
This would mean that you could get a good handful of items from the corpse in the couple of minutes that it takes the player to get back to you and you'll then likely have to defend yourself. It also means that if you just wanted to hit and run that you aren't going to get as much unless you stick around long enough to be chased away..
Additionally, if the bandit chooses to do business close to his hideout then he could possibly make multiple trips to the corpse and back.
Obviously a corpse would retain all of the PVP flags that it had when the player died. If it was flagged as a criminal then anyone could help themselves without losing alignment. If a corpse was not flagged than anyone taking gear would be flagged as a criminal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
Harad suggested a way for players to bring unique items into the world (somewhat connected to crafting).
It's not my fault. Honest. :)
Ahhh, I see. Don't get me wrong. I would love if once in a character's life, he could create a "masterpiece" that would have something special and persistant about it.
Would end up being a lot of items though, wouldn't it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those who support unique items: how many should there be, as a ratio to total active players? As high as one in twenty, and still most small groups have none, while large groups have so many that they become commodities.
Make it much lower, and pretty soon a statistically insignificant number of people have even seen one, while the largest groups closely monitor them.
Where do y'all think the sweet spot is?
There should be one per settlement hex. This is not to say that every settlement will have one, nor that one settlement won't eventually control all.
There were 20 rings of power in all of Middle Earth:
9 for the Kings of Men
7 for the Dwarf Lords
3 for Elves
1 to rule them all
The items of unique power, may grant power to settlements, not to individuals. Their powers could buff the various DI indexes, but they will not stack.
A settlement will want to control at least one of each, but wont need to have more than one if their powers don't stack. However, they might want them all, in order to deny other settlements their power.
How can these items be discovered? GW can actually seed these items randomly, into random dungeons. Or they can drop for the highest level boss of an escalation.
Once the 16 have been discovered, that is it. They will be out there. No one but the devs will know where or when they were discovered, but even the Devs may not know who has them.
These items can not be threaded, nor can they be hidden in a place that can not be discovered or have the item taken from there (Ie. a player bank slot, or attacked to a mail that is never sent).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those who support unique items: how many should there be, as a ratio to total active players? As high as one in twenty, and still most small groups have none, while large groups have so many that they become commodities.
Make it much lower, and pretty soon a statistically insignificant number of people have even seen one, while the largest groups closely monitor them.
Where do y'all think the sweet spot is?
There should be one per settlement hex. This is not to say that every settlement will have one, nor that one settlement won't eventually control all.
There were 20 rings of power in all of Middle Earth:
9 for the Kings of Men
7 for the Dwarf Lords
3 for Elves
1 to rule them allThe items of unique power, may grant power to settlements, not to individuals. Their powers could buff the various DI indexes, but they will not stack.
A settlement will want to control at least one of each, but wont need to have more than one if their powers don't stack. However, they might want them all, in order to deny other settlements their power.
How can these items be discovered? GW can actually seed these items randomly, into random dungeons. Or they can drop for the highest level boss of an escalation.
Once the 16 have been discovered, that is it. They will be out there. No one but the devs will know where or when they were discovered, but even the Devs may not know who has them.
These items can not be threaded, nor can they be hidden in a place that can not be discovered or have the item taken from there (Ie. a player bank slot, or attacked to a mail that is never sent).
Didn't GW already promise "artifacts" recoverable from advanced escalations that would be beneficial to settlements?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've greatly enjoyed reading this thread and would like to ask for help in understanding how caravans might operate in PFO.
I have no experience with MMOs but came to PFO through the second Kickstarter after being referred by someone in the online Greyhawk community, Canonfire!. I now live far away from my old RPG friends and am hoping that PFO may enable me to enjoy RPing in ways redolent of PNP roleplaying.
Hence, I have been imagining creating nomadic or semi-nomadic Varisian characters, and I am hoping that posters might share links to relevant past discussions of the Regional Trait Pack, caravanning, etc., or simply comment on how / whether my notion of nomadic or semi-nomadic Varisian characters (perhaps including Szcarni), might relate to what the PFO community has already been discussing, particularly the latest blog post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
Yes. They already mentioned artifacts.
DeciusBrutus,
If it's something akin to an artifact, I'm willing to put up with the complaints from those who never see one. How many people have seen our world's "artifacts" in person? They're rare for a reason. I think some of the "everyone should get one" sentiment comes from playing too many themepark games that try to cater to every player's needs for fear of someone being upset.
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What I would like to see is a chance for crafters to come up with an unexpected result from their refining and crafting. Plenty of other games have this, but it just depends on how "special" that unexpected result is, how often it can happen, and what variables are involved in making it occur.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs;
I replied to avari3 to express my thoughts on, and experience from, RP in themeparks, not as a comment on your sword courier scenario. I do feel that a lot of games make it really hard for players to RP in them. With envy I have observed that some people are able to break through the barrier, so to speak, and RP anyway. From your posts, I get the impression that you are one of those lucky/stalwart people.
I have often felt that trying to RP is like trying swimming against the current since the mechanics encourage you to most of the time do things that I couldn't make sense of IC.
I have high hopes for PFO to allow me to play a character the way I envision it in an environment of other players doing the same. I look forward to attempting to RP in an MMORPG where RP makes sense. I agree with most of your points and respect the remainder. I offer my apologies if I appeared to criticize the way you enjoy RP, that was not my intention.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My impression way that those would eventually become commoditized, or at least have a coin value that they could get at auction.
Didn't GW already promise "artifacts" recoverable from advanced escalations that would be beneficial to settlements?
Well nothing in the blog about selling or trading them. They are mentioned in four different blogs though. Maybe some Dev remark on the forum gave you that impression?
Blogs:
You Can Live in Grace and Comfort
When the Demon is at Your Door
Join Forces Underground
Over the Hill and Far Away
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It seems like alot of this conversation about "don't allow things to impede what i plan on doing" misses the point of the game, it is a game where the players create the content, where the players create the conflict. without that, there is no compelling challenge to the game, if nothing can directly impede your chosen task, then there is zero challenge really, the game is reduced to a 1-dimensional competition for 'points' between people trying to do the exact same thing in the most efficient manner possible. The point of structuring the game like this is that it makes it dynamic, the "game" is constantly changing depending on how each actor decides to respond to the current situation. If merchants can't make any money, then robbers can't make any money because there will be no merchants.
Anyhow, yes, urchins. Yum... [slurp!]
The thing about crafting facility queues (god, that word is crazy to spell!) is interesting, I think it could be a good dynamic if people end up waiting around town for a bit for their turn to come up, sort of creates a social nexus. I suppose you might as well 'get your ticket' and then you will be given an E.T.A of when it will be open for your use. Unless the queue is VERY long, you will want to stick around relatively closely, maybe go to some taverns in town, maybe chat settlement strategy with your fellow citizens, etc. When characters don't show up for their turn within a certain time-limit (which should be relatively short given that everybody should have a live timer telling them when their turn will comer up), the next person in line gets pushed to the head of the line. Perhaps if you miss your turn, you get one or two extra chances to still be in line (after the person who just took your place), but eventually you should get dropped completely since that keeps the E.T.A. more accurate - The details of that could be left for the settlement to decide, some could be harsher, some could be more forgiving. Settlement policy could also determine whether or not you could have multiple spots in the same queue, or what limits there are on that (you have to wait at least 30 minutes before getting a second queue ticket, for example). A settlement could apply the limits globally across all their crafting facilities, or other queues, or allow you to get a ticket(s) in each one independent of the others (although if your turn in line comes up in several ones simultaneously, you may well lose your turn).
I saw somebody else echo my question about how WATER will make a difference in the game. I'm not sure if we will really be able to see the full spectrum of how water exists just in the limit area of the EE, but hopefully it does exist to some degree - a small river, for example (not occupying a full hex, or even sub-hex, just cutting thru it)? Besides the broader-scope questions about water (affecting travel, resource sources, larger areas of water), hopefully it is signifigant on the local, tactical scale. A river could impede movement, perhaps scaling heavily the more you are loaded so laden-down caravans (or succesful bandits ;-)) would need to keep that in mind. Some rivers could be bigger than others, some faster than others. And bridges could be built to cross them at certain points. +Waterfalls/rapids? +Lakes? Flooded Forests/Swamps?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...the primary engines of roleplay should be driven by the game mechanics. The further away you get from the game mechanics, the more you push the roleplay into a secluded niche that is both inaccessible and delusionary...
That sounds a little bit absurd to me.
The further you get away from being mechanical the more deluded the niche? Profoundly untrue. The game is the players, especially in a sandbox game. Games are human entertainment, not machinery.