Small sized aasimar.


Rules Questions

Lantern Lodge

Spoiler:
"Non-human aasimars have the same statistics as human
aasimars with the exception of size. Thus a halfling aasimar
is Small but otherwise possesses the same statistics and
abilities as a human aasimar—the difference is purely
cosmetic."

Emphasis mine.

Does this mean size bonuses (to Strength/AC/Attack Rolls/Stealth) do not get applied? Or does it mean that ONLY size bonuses apply (and all other stats and abilites are identical)?


The latter. Size bonuses/penalties to AC, attack rolls, CMB, CMD, plus stealth and fly checks, would all apply, as they apply to all characters that are of the given size.

You would not gain any bonuses or penalties to STR, DEX, CON, or natural armor, however, since those only apply to characters changing size (or otherwise being granted them).

In other words, from this page everything on "Table: Size Bonuses and Penalties" will apply, but nothing on "Table: Size Changes".

Grand Lodge

There are no changes to ability score modifiers.

Lantern Lodge

Are wrote:

The latter. Size bonuses/penalties to AC, attack rolls, CMB, CMD, plus stealth and fly checks, would all apply, as they apply to all characters that are of the given size.

You would not gain any bonuses or penalties to STR, DEX, CON, or natural armor, however, since those only apply to characters changing size (or otherwise being granted them).

In other words, from this page everything on "Table: Size Bonuses and Penalties" will apply, but nothing on "Table: Size Changes".

Nice, concise answer. Thanks a bunch.


I'd recommend against playing them or allowing them. They aren't balanced.

Grand Lodge

Drachasor wrote:
I'd recommend against playing them or allowing them. They aren't balanced.

Aasimar in general, or just small Aasimar?


And what's the reasoning for either being "un"balanced?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
I'd recommend against playing them or allowing them. They aren't balanced.
Aasimar in general, or just small Aasimar?

I don't think Aasimar in general are bad at all. They balance out within a few levels.

Small Aasimar though gain all the benefits of being small without having to get the penalties. +1 to hit, +AC, and no strength penalty is actually quite good, to say nothing of playing a variant with a strength bonus. Weapon size matters a little bit, but strength matters more for a lot of melee and even ranged builds.

It's also just flat-out better for most casters.

In short, being small verses medium is typically advantageous. They aren't equally good.

Grand Lodge

Wayangs are small, and have no penalty to strength.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Wayangs are small, and have no penalty to strength.

I did forget to mention speed (Wayans, Gnomes, Halfings have a speed of 20 ft. Small Aasimars have a speed of 30 ft). Also, the Aasimar has better racial abilities. Small aasimar and their variants would just be flat-out better than all the other small races by a notable margin.

Grand Lodge

Goblins and Halflings with the Fleet of Foot alternate racial trait have a base speed of 30ft.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

How would an aasimar be a better sorcerer than a gnome? I think a Con bonus trumps movement rate, most of the time. I could see the argument for small Clerics, but since nothing small is currently a very good cleric that I know, it doesn't seem that big of a deal.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Goblins and Halflings with the Fleet of Foot alternate racial trait have a base speed of 30ft.

I don't see that option of the pfsrd for gnomes. Halflings have to give something up for it. Aasimar do not.

RJGrady wrote:
How would an aasimar be a better sorcerer than a gnome? I think a Con bonus trumps movement rate, most of the time. I could see the argument for small Clerics, but since nothing small is currently a very good cleric that I know, it doesn't seem that big of a deal.

Agathonian-blooded Aasimar get +2 Con, +2 Cha. Also Summon Nature's Ally II as a spell-like ability 1/day instead of Daylight. Any Aasimar can lower strength more than a gnome (as 5 strength is nearly unplayable) and use that to boost more important Stats. Oh, and Azata-blooded get +2 Dex, +2 Charisma...which is generally better than Con. To say nothing of the generally better racial traits like minor energy resist and being able to spend two feats so they can fly without magic at 10th level (undispellable).

You could make a corner case for gnomes regarding illusion magic. But let's be honest, humans pretty much make the best sorcerers.

Let me put this another way. A huge number of characters are better off small-sized compared to large if all things are equal. Small and medium are NOT equally good -- small is better overall. So Aasimar getting to choose to be small without having to sacrifice anything for it isn't a balanced option.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Being small results in a lower CMD. I consider that very significant.

Grand Lodge

Also, being small gives you a penalty to Acrobatics to jump.


I'm trying to remember the last time I had to jump in a game. It certainly comes up less than 10% of the games that I play. Even when it does come up, it's usually a "my character is good at jumping, so chooses to" situation. The idea of being forced to jump is not quite a complete novelty to me, but certainly close. "Toss the small aasimar" is an obvious solution.

Even CMD doesn't come up that often. If you were offered a slotless magic item that gave you -1 to your CMD but a +1 to your normal AC, would you take it? I think most players would, unless they were planning on building a professional grappler.

... and that's basically what Small size offers.


Tiny penalties that rarely actually make a difference. +1 to AC (including touch AC) is much more significant than -1 to CMD. You also get +1 to hit, +4 stealth, etc.

Hmm, don't see the size modifier to acrobatics, Blackbloodtroll. You sure you aren't thinking of the base speed adjustment? (3.5 had a slight penalty beyond that for small creatures, but PF doesn't).

I am not saying Medium is never, ever advantageous. I am merely saying that generally speaking being Small is more advantageous.

Grand Lodge

It is base speed.

My bad.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

My games must be unusual. Maybe I use more creatures with improved grab than most? Off the top of my head, I would be a little concerned as a Small wizard that I had just made it that much easier for one of a half dozen goblin warriors to disarm my wand.


Drachasor wrote:
I'd recommend against playing them or allowing them. They aren't balanced.

I cringe everytime I read something like this, everyone knows that the most unbalanced Race is by far "Humans", but still there are always people to say : Aasimar are not balanced, or Drow are not balanced etc.

That's probably why every single class guide always say: Best race as usual is human.


Lauraliane wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
I'd recommend against playing them or allowing them. They aren't balanced.

I cringe everytime I read something like this, everyone knows that the most unbalanced Race is by far "Humans", but still there are always people to say : Aasimar are not balanced, or Drow are not balanced etc.

That's probably why every single class guide always say: Best race as usual is human.

Except that's not true. Quite a few guides recommend other races as being the best. Others merely rate other races as equal to humans. Not a whole bunch just pick humans as best and nothing else as equal. However, most guides don't go over small Aasimar as an option or Aasimar variants.

That said, I think the Aasimar are fine overall. I'm just saying allowing a small Aasimar as-is should not be done. Small is overall more advantageous than medium. Getting it for nothing isn't a good idea.

RJGrady wrote:
My games must be unusual. Maybe I use more creatures with improved grab than most? Off the top of my head, I would be a little concerned as a Small wizard that I had just made it that much easier for one of a half dozen goblin warriors to disarm my wand.

Small gives a -1 penalty. Grab works on creatures of your size or smaller, so the vast majority of things with grab can use it on all PCs quite easily. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.


Personaly i would rule it as a variant ability ig it already isnt like for tieflings so replace your spell like ability with it.


Drachasor wrote:


Except that's not true. Quite a few guides recommend other races as being the best. Others merely rate other races as equal to humans. Not a whole bunch just pick humans as best and nothing else as equal. However, most guides don't go over small Aasimar as an option or Aasimar variants.

That said, I think the Aasimar are fine overall. I'm just saying allowing a small Aasimar as-is should not be done. Small is overall more advantageous than medium. Getting it for nothing isn't a good idea.

Humans are honestly always blue if not purple in guides.

Anyway the reality is that balancing in Pathfinder and most PnP rpg in general is a lie.

No "legal" race is so powerful that it is going to unbalance your games, there are simply too many factors and randomness everywhere, in the end a +1 here and there is simply lost in the tsunami of modifiers, rolls, combinations, buff, debuff and so on.

So really as far as race are concerned I usually let my players be what they want? Someone want a small musetouched Aasimar Sorcerer? Cool, sounds fun and flavorful.

And in every case less OP than the Human Sorcerer with his extra feat and broken favored class bonus, but even that, is ok.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The only class standard assimar are really exceptional at is cleric, and small assimar clerics actually seem less powerful in that regard. I wouldn't take a small aasimar over a gnome sorcerer; I'll gladly take a Strength penalty for a Con bonus, thank you. In 3.5, aasimar were a strong choice, but in Pathfinder, they have a smaller net advantage in the ability score department. Most of their racial bonus are nice bonuses that don't scale very much. They are probably as good as humans or elves. After a certain point, native darkvision and small resistances just don't count for much. However, +2 Perception and a Wis bonus is not bad.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Even CMD doesn't come up that often.

Your DM doesn't know what he is doing then. My players know going in that their CMD is one of my primary targets when building encounters because it is simply difficult to increase with gear, and grappling can flat-out disable certain types of characters.

AC is easy to increase, full plate + Tower Shield and instant AC of 23, make it small and it is 24.

CMD, however, is still 10 + STR + DEX + BAB +/- size regardless. Hehehe.

However, I digress, the thing about Aasimar is that they have more power than other races. Good, Great, so have everyone only play Aasimar.

Wait, what? People like ROLEPLAYING in a ROLEPLAYING GAME? Psh. The only thing we care about is minute gains and losses in power!
While we are at it an Aasimar can gain Fly 20 (poor) if they give up their SLA. So the strength of the Strix (flight) is replaced as well.

Is any of this really going to matter at mid-levels? Na.
Will it matter at level 1 when that +5 str power attacking 2-handed fighter comes in to take a swing out of said character? Na.
Will it matter at the later levels? Na.

It is like me playing a werewolf at level 1 (I'm a warrior 1). I am powerful now, but my DR by level 12 becomes a 4 point evolution for summoners who didn't take a template for flavor, character concept, and RP reasons.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Tieflings have the same ability to be small.

In Blood of Fiends there a an awesome pic of a Tieflinghalfhalfling.

That pic alone made me want to play one.

The thought of the tieflingonispawnhalfhalfling being small and having a 20 str at 1st was too hilarious not to play.

Just imagine the high squeaked voice popping up from the party going,"I'm the muscle"

Shadow Lodge

1.)This thread got necroed

2.)

RJGrady wrote:
How would an aasimar be a better sorcerer than a gnome?

Halfling Agathion Blooded Aasimar. You get the +2 Con, a Spell like ability that lets you work with disguise, and a +2 str. buff (For gish types), and faster speed. And you are immune to a bunch of "Humanoid Only" spells. Now, is this better than a +2 to saves v. Illusions and a +1 DC of illusions, or a +1 CL to fire spells (for pyromaniacs)? Maybe Maybe not.

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