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Let's say you had something like Spell Perfection (Shadow Weapon)
Since Weapon Focus gets doubled on similar spells.... would Power attack?
From my reading, it looks like power attack would indeed be doubled for attacks made via the shadow weapon spell.
I'm not sure its clear that weapon focus with say a longsword and then using spell perfected shadow weapon to create a longsword would actualy give you double the bonus of weapon focus. Can you site any precedent for that at all?
I would say that weapon focus (and power) affects weapons, and does not in any way affect the spell.
In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
I read aspect of this spell to mean pertaining to the casting of the spell, not to objects created by the spell.
Hm, yes, I agree. I think I originally assumed/thought/misread that the attacks with the shadow weapon were made during the casting, but on further reading I see that you're actually making a weapon that you can attack with for the spell's duration, and not actually attacking during the casting at all.
So, then weapon focus and power attack wouldn't be doubled. They don't change the numerical aspects of the spell.
1) It says nowhere that the feat must affect the spell at the time of casting.
2) Shadow weapon isn't an object, that would be conjuration(creation).
Shadow Weapon is a shadow spell from the Illusion school. Shadow spells create illusions that are partially real.
Weapon focus nor Power Attack in any way affect any numerical aspects of the spell. I think the RAW are a little uncelar on this case, but I think the RAI would say no. Unless you can find some precedent that says yes weapon focus would be doubled then I cannot agree to weapon focus or power attack. It's either both or neither.
I don't know for sure if Power Attack would work, but the Feat specifically says that Weapon Focus would work. Am I missing something?
Sorry, I should be more specific. The feat Spell Perfection specifically mention Weapon Focus(Ray) which is a method of attack with the spell (using it to make a ranged touch attack). In this case it would make sense for Spell Perfection to apply. Please note that only Weapon Focus(Ray) is the only type of Weapon Focus that would really apply to spell casters. Normal Weapon Focus options are weapons, grapple, unarmed strike, or for spell casters, rays.
What the OP wants is for Weapon Focus(Lonsword) to apply to Shadow Weapon (which creates the Illusion of a weapon) when he creates a longsword with it. I agree that Weapon Focus (Longsword) would apply normally to a longsword whether it is real or a shadow version of this spell and Power Attack would apply normally too. However, I don't think it makes any sense to double it with Spell Perfection because those feats in no way directly modify the spell. They modify something created by spell.
Link please?
The bolded language exists because the spell is shadow illusion spell. Illusion spells always have will saves to disbelieve, and shadow spells create things that are only partially real.
I don't know for sure if Power Attack would work, but the Feat specifically says that Weapon Focus would work. Am I missing something?What the OP wants is for Weapon Focus(Lonsword) to apply to Shadow Weapon (which creates the Illusion of a weapon) when he creates a longsword with it. I agree that Weapon Focus (Longsword) would apply normally to a longsword whether it is real or a shadow version of this spell and Power Attack would apply normally too. However, I don't think it makes any sense to double it with Spell Perfection because those feats in no way directly modify the spell. They modify something created by spell.
Weapon Focus(Scimitar) can effect Flame Blade.
Range 0 ft.
Effect sword-like beam
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.
Why wouldn't the same apply to a Shadow Weapon Scimitar?
EFFECT
Range 0 ft.
Effect one shadow weapon
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
Drawing upon the Plane of Shadow, you shape a quasi-real masterwork melee weapon of a type you are proficient with. You may use this weapon to make attacks as if it were a real weapon, dealing normal damage for a weapon of its type. The first time you hit a creature with the weapon, it may make a Will save to disbelieve; failure means the weapon deals damage normally, success means it only takes 1 point of damage from the weapon’s attacks. The weapon only deals 1 point of damage to objects.
If an attacked creature has spell resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the shadow weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the target may save to disbelieve as normal.
At 5th level, the weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus. At 10th-level, you may increase the enhancement bonus to +2 or add the frost or keen weapon property. The frost and keen properties have no effect if the target makes its disbelief save.
The spell ends if the weapon leaves your possession.
Here is what spell perfection says:
"In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell."
If I have Spell Focus(illusion) and use it on Shadow Weapon, does that not increase the will save of the spell? Wouldn't that be doubled if I had Spell Perfection(Shadow Weapon)? I think yes. It seems to me that this blade that I create is the spell and not just some object created by it!
Therefore, things like weapon specialization, weapon focus, and power attack would apply as well, since they apply to the damage of the spell.
Spell Focus(Illusion ) would get doubled on a Spell Perfected (Shadow Weapon) because it affects the DC of the spell.
Can you cite a source that says Weapon Focus(Scimitar) gets double by a Spell Perfected Flame Blade? I agree the Weapon Focus Scimitar will add a +1 because the spell create something that you wield like a Scimitar, but that bonus shouldn't get doubled to two with Spell Perfection because Weapon Focus (Scimitar) doesn't affect anything to do with the spell. It affects your attack roll when you make a melee attack with a specific type of weapon. Power Attack modifies melee weapon damage and not Spells again.
I'm not saying that Weapon Focus doesn't affect weapons conjured or created or produced by magic that are wielded in the same manner as the item you have Weapon Focus in. What I'm saying is, they don't have anything to do with the spell specifically. They are not feats which affect the spell, they are feats the affect the created object.
If you can find a single source that indicates that Weapon Focus should be doubled when used with a Spell Perfected version of a spell that creates a weapon then that would be evidence for me to change my position, but so far you haven't shown anything to indicate that.
Also, the blade or weapon you create is not the spell, it is a result of the spell.
Quote: "Also, the blade or weapon you create is not the spell, it is a result of the spell."
Care to cite a source for this? Every spell creates an effect.
Spell effects ARE the spell. Just because they remain with a duration, doesn't make them NOT a spell. Do you believe this is true about mage armor?
A good rule of thumb is, if you can dispel it gone, then it is a spell.
When the spell effect is a ray, weapon focus(ray) applies and gets doubled by spell perfection.
That's why it makes sense to me, that when the spell effect is a Shadow Scimitar, then weapon focus(scimitar) would apply and get doubled.
You seem to think that I am using something similar to Wood Shape. Look closely at how Wood Shape is different from the things I am descibing. Wood Shape has no effect, so whatever I make with it is permanent, cannot be dispelled, aren't spells. Notice how there is no Spell Effect and the duration is instantaneus.
Weapon specialization, weapon focus and power attack all have to do with how you are wielding that weapon. How much STRENGTH you put behind the attack. How skilled you are in it's use. There is absolutely no reason Spell perfection would have any effect on how well you WIELD the weapon you create.
It would absolutely increase the DC's if you have spell focus. It will also double the bonus from spell penetration.
If you can somehow convince your DM to let these things benefit from spell perfection. He should also double the penalty from power attack since it is a numerical value.
My 2 cents..
Venom
I'm done with this. I feel like I just keep trying to say the same thing over and over again. I feel like this is so obvious and maybe thats getting in my way.
Just consider that if it worked the way you wanted it to a magus would take Shadow Weapon and spell perfection and use Power Attack and be able to get 20 damage instead of 10. An Eldritch Knight could probably make even better use of it by making a 2 handed weapon and get 30 damage instead of 15 from it. If you can't see why that is a terrible idea to allow then I don't know what to say.
For instance, I know you can't have deadly aim used on a ray attack.
Deadly Aim specifies that it can't be used with touch attacks, which is the reason it doesn't apply to ray spells (as they're all ranged touch attacks).
If the spell effect is attacking (e.g. Fiery Shuriken, Spiritual Weapon (side note: Spiritual Weapon specifically denies that your Feats apply)), then Spell Perfection would double associated feats (e.g. Weapon Focus(Ray) works because it is used on an attack directly caused by the spell).
If you have to use another skill or a non-casting non-specialized-spell-specific action to attack (e.g. Shadow Weapon, Flame Blade attacking via a stanrd or full-round attack), it would not double those Feats. Those feats are not part of the act of casting the spell (which is where Spell Perfection applies), or directly noted specialized methods for enacting its effects (which could also potentially be allowed to benefit, if there's a spell that has Rays going off in subsequent turns but requires an action to use them). Flame Blade, more interestingly, probably shouldn't grant Power Attack as it already denies Strength Bonuses, but that's an aside.
Point being: If it directly relates to casting the spell, it gets the doubling. If it does not, then it doesn't get to be doubled. Or, possibly better: If you can't use the feat without casting a spell, and that feat applies a direct numeric value, it probably applies. If you could use that feat without a spell effect, and the feat doesn't specifically call out spells as gaining the bonus, it doesn't get doubled because it isn't a Spell-specific feat.
Though looking more into how Feats interact with spells... I wonder why you're not being penalized when you cast Ray spells, because you're not proficient (or show me where a Wizard gets "Weapon Proficiency: Ray").
"works because it is used on an attack directly caused by the spell"
I am making attacks directly with my spell (which is in the shape of a sword.
"Those feats are not part of the act of casting the spell (which is where Spell Perfection applies)"
This is not what the feat says. The Italicized portion is separate from the bold.
Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
If what you say is true, then I shouldn't be able double Spell Penetration on a Vampiric Touch if I held the charge because it was applied after I cast the spell.
Do I have the feat power attack? Yes.
Does it apply a set numerical bonus? Most likely yes (this is where I have the question.)
Does it apply this bonus to any aspect of the spell? Yes.
@Claxon
So what? You think that the sword is more powerful than Augment summoning and superior summoning with a summoner build? +8 Str, +8 Con, and +2 monsters automatically?
Attack rolls and damage bonuses are not aspects of the spell.
This does not work. You are the only one inclined to believe it does because you're choosing to ignore common sense.
Attack rolls and damage bonuses are not aspects of the spell.
The spell IS the sword!
Anything feat that enhances the sword enhances the spell, because they are one and the same.Similarly, the RAY is the spell in Ray of Frost. It's not just a ray created by the spell. The ARROW IS the spell in Acid Arrow. The creature IS the spell in summon monster.
It has already been shown in the spells description that Attack rolls made with the spell can be modified. So spells CAN be modified by such things.
sry. acid arrow is conjuration creation.... so that might not apply. Although, the more I look at it the more I think it should.
I disagree that Power Attack and Spell Perfection would work together on attacks with this spell. The reasons I disagree are as follows:
1) The only set numerical values in the spell are the 1 point of damage it deals per attack if the Will Save is passed, which would become 2 points with Spell Perfection. At 5th and 10th levels the effective enhancement bonus of the weapon would go from +1 and +2 to +2 and +4.
The last sentence of Spell Perfection says:
In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Spell Perfection lists Spell Focus [ray] because when a ray attack is made, it is the spell. Thus the bonus would apply since it's applying to the spell, not an effect made after the spell is cast.
If this were to be houseruled as allowable, then I would have to say that the penalty to attack rolls is also doubled along with the damage increase since that is a set numerical value as well. At 15th level that would be a -2 base penalty, so -4 to attack after the Spell Perfection doubling took effect (as a wizard/sorcerer or -3/-6 as a magus).
I disagree that Power Attack and Spell Perfection would work together on attacks with this spell. The reasons I disagree are as follows:
1) The only set numerical values in the spell are the 1 point of damage it deals per attack if the Will Save is passed, which would become 2 points with Spell Perfection. At 5th and 10th levels the effective enhancement bonus of the weapon would go from +1 and +2 to +2 and +4.
Spell perfection wouldn't double the "minimum" damage of the spell from 1 to 2, because only FEATS you possess are doubled on the spell.
The last sentence of Spell Perfection says:In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Spell Perfection lists Spell Focus [ray] because when a ray attack is made, it is the spell. Thus the bonus would apply since it's applying to the spell, not an effect made after the spell is cast.
Where is this false notion that spells are only spells as they are being cast???? I do say, SHOW ME! In fact, multiple rules suggest (and even outright say) exactly the opposite.
Here are a few:
Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
From this we see that spells with durations CONTINUE to be spells, they are lasting, the don't cease to be a spell.
Identify a spell effect that is in place
So, you can ID a spell that is already cast. Meaning that whatever spell effect is present IS still a spell."
So, AGAIN. The ray IS the spell, the flame weapon scimitar IS the spell, the illusion sword IS the spell, the mage armor IS the spell, the delayed blast fireball IS still the spell.
Spell description + spell effect = the spell.
Alright, I'll try to clarify my post earlier since after rereading it I didn't feel it was clear enough.
Scorching Ray
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one or more rays
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Ray of Frost
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage.
Polar Ray
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a white ceramic cone or prism)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A blue-white ray of freezing air and ice springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 25d6) and 1d4 points of Dexterity drain.
Since they have an instantaneous duration the rays have to be fired in the round they are created in. In all of the spells that create rays, it specifically says in the spell description that as part of the spell you make an attack roll. The attack roll is part of the spell itself, which is why Weapon Focus [ray] is specifically mentioned in the description of spell perfection. The bonus to the attack roll is applied to spell because the attack roll is part of the spell, and therefore it is doubled.
Shadow Weapon
School illusion (shadow) [shadow]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range 0 ft.
Effect one shadow weapon
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance yes
Drawing upon the Plane of Shadow, you shape a quasi-real masterwork melee weapon of a type you are proficient with. You may use this weapon to make attacks as if it were a real weapon, dealing normal damage for a weapon of its type. The first time you hit a creature with the weapon, it may make a Will save to disbelieve; failure means the weapon deals damage normally, success means it only takes 1 point of damage from the weapon's attacks. The weapon only deals 1 point of damage to objects.
If an attacked creature has spell resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the shadow weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the target may save to disbelieve as normal.
At 5th level, the weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus. At 10th-level, you may increase the enhancement bonus to +2 or add the frost or keen weapon property. The frost and keen properties have no effect if the target makes its disbelief save.
The spell ends if the weapon leaves your possession.
The Shadow Weapon spell itself just creates the weapon in your hand. The weapon is the effect of the spell, not the spell itself. It has an ongoing effect, rather than an instantaneous one so it stays in your hand for 1 minute per caster level. Nowhere in the effect or the description of the spell does it say that you make an attack roll as part of the spell.
Power Attack (general)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Power Attack specifically states that the feat modifies melee attack rolls, it does not state anything about modifying the weapon/item/spell effect.
Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Spell Perfection clearly states that the bonus from any feats that apply a numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell you can double the bonus granted by the feat.
Weapon Focus [ray] applies to the spell, because the attack roll is part of the spell when you use a ray. The attack roll is described in the description of the spell.
Weapon Focus
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Weapon Focus states that it grants a bonus to the attack roll made with the selected weapon. It can be used with spells Flame Blade because the description of Flame Blade states that you wield it as if it were a scimitar. So Weapon Focus [scimitar] would apply a +1 to the attack roll. It isn't effecting the spell itself, it is effecting your melee attack roll. The only mention of an attack roll in Flame Blade's description is that it makes your attack rolls melee touch attacks when using the blade. Not that an attack is part of the spell itself.
Flame Blade
School evocation [fire]; Level druid 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range 0 ft.
Effect sword-like beam
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.
Matthias DM, you said in your previous post that "Spell description + spell effect = the spell." Neither Flame Blade, nor Shadow Weapon list anything about an attack as part of the spell in their effect or description. All of the ray spells do. Therefore when you cast a ray spell, the attack roll is part of the spell. When you create a sword that you then use melee attack rolls or melee touch attack rolls to attack with, the attack roll is not part of the spell. It has nothing to do with the spell. The spell is just the instrument you are using in the attack.
TLDR Version:
Feats that give bonuses to your attack roll are not doubled unless the attack roll is part of the spell. Rays make an attack roll when the spell is cast, thus Spell Perfection works with weapon focus [ray]. Attacking with a spell weapon in your hand is making a melee attack or melee touch attack. Weapon Focus [scimitar] or [shadow weapon] are giving a bonus to your attack roll, not the spell. Power attack likewise modifies the melee attack roll, not the spell.
You say " Neither Flame Blade, nor Shadow Weapon list anything about an attack as part of the spell in their effect or description" but what is "Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks"? Sounds like something about attacking in the description. I don't see much difference between "You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target" and "Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks" except a different duration (ie: make one attack roll vs multiple rolls over time). Both flame blade and ray of frost tell you you have to make an attack roll to damage so why is one part of the spell and another not? I'm not seeing it.
Because of the duration line of the spell. When you cast any of the Ray spells, the ray appears and launches at the target(s). You cannot hold the ray or wait until the next round to use it. The attack roll as part of the spell is an effect that modifies the spell. Weapon Focus [ray] is increasing the chance that the spell is going to hit, thus modifying the spell. When you cast Flame Blade or Shadow Weapon you do not get to make an attack in the same round as well. All attacks you make are considered melee attacks, or melee touch attacks in the case of Flame Blade. The weapon focus feat applies a bonus to your attack roll. Power attack also modifies the attack roll.
The last line of Spell Perfection states: if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Weapon Focus [ray] is modifying the action taken when the spell is being cast. Weapon focus [scimitar] is modifying the action [melee touch attack] made after the spell is cast.
Because of the duration line of the spell. When you cast any of the Ray spells, the ray appears and launches at the target(s). You cannot hold the ray or wait until the next round to use it. The attack roll as part of the spell is an effect that modifies the spell. Weapon Focus [ray] is increasing the chance that the spell is going to hit, thus modifying the spell. When you cast Flame Blade or Shadow Weapon you do not get to make an attack in the same round as well. All attacks you make are considered melee attacks, or melee touch attacks in the case of Flame Blade. The weapon focus feat applies a bonus to your attack roll. Power attack also modifies the attack roll.
The last line of Spell Perfection states: if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Weapon Focus [ray] is modifying the action taken when the spell is being cast. Weapon focus [scimitar] is modifying the action [melee touch attack] made after the spell is cast.
So the second round of my chill touch isn't part of my spell but my smacking them with the back of my hand? Sorry, I don't buy the duration argument. As long as the spell is going, it's a spell and attacks with it are attacks with a spell. And is it not a spell the first time? You don't seem to thing so since you say a melee touch attack makes it not one.
The duration of Chill Touch is instantaneous, it has a range of touch, and a target of creature or creatures touched (up to one per level). The effect of the spell is to create an aura around your hand which disrupts a touched creatures life force when you touch them dealing 1d6 damage. It also specifically states that to deal damage you make a melee touch attack.
Chill Touch
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.
You cast it, your hand begins to glow, you can then make a touch attack against the target you're touching (and receive his/her/its AoO if you didn't cast it before moving within range). The next round you can attempt to make a melee touch attack against a target or cast another spell, which would make your Chill Touch dissipate.
The following is from the Spells in Combat section, detailing spells with a range of touch.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
If you had a feat that said you deal an extra +2 negative energy damage whenever you cast a damage dealing spell, then Spell Perfection (Chill Touch) would get double the benefit of that feat because it's a set numerical value that modifies the spell.
Edited to format what was from the prd.
Look at it another way. When you land an attack after casting Chill Touch, you're discharging energy from the spell. You can do this a total number of times equal to your level, unless you cast another spell before you reach that number.
The charge isn't released on it's own, you have to physically reach and attack someone to release it. Thus the attack is a melee touch attack.
With a ray, the attack is part of the spell. You can't hold the charge to use a round later. When multiple rays are created you have to fire all rays at the same time, even if they can target different targets.
The duration of Chill Touch is instantaneous, it has a range of touch, and a target of creature or creatures touched (up to one per level). The effect of the spell is to create an aura around your hand which disrupts a touched creatures life force when you touch them dealing 1d6 damage. It also specifically states that to deal damage you make a melee touch attack.
"Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks" So flameblade ALSO says to damage (ie: attack) you use a melee touch attack... I fail to see how a spell stops being a spell after the instant it's cast. Until you can show me this I can't agree with you.
I never said the spell stops being a spell. I said that the attack roll is no longer the spell. The attack roll is your attack roll, and is a standard action used on your turn. Flame Blade is a spell with a duration, and therefore the damage done is done by the spell, but the attack roll is not in any way part of the spell itself.
With Flame Blade you can continue casting spells and the Flame Blade stays in your hand. The reason for this is because even though it makes your attacks a melee touch attack, it's not a spell with a range of touch. It doesn't hold a charge, it has a direct effect that lasts a set time.
Chill Touch is a held charge that you can continue holding until you touch a number of creatures equal to your level. When you cast another spell, the held charge is dissipated.
With any Ray spell, the attack roll is a part of casting the spell. You cannot cast the spell without making the attack roll. Weapon Focus [ray] modifies the attack roll of the ray, the ray is the spell.
For the purposes of the answering the OP's post, Weapon Focus [longsword] would modify the attack roll when trying to hit someone with a Shadow Weapon that was in the shape of a longsword. It isn't modifying the spell, it is modifying your attack roll when you use a standard action to attack on the following rounds.
Power Attack likewise modifies your attack and damage rolls, it doesn't modify the weapons (spells) damage roll. It modifies your ability to deal damage by sacrificing accuracy on your attack to put more strength into the swing. That's modifying you, not the spell.
I never said the spell stops being a spell. I said that the attack roll is no longer the spell.
Ah........ "Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks" You are attacking with the spell or the spell can't do damage. Nothing about holding the spell and attacking latter with it has any effect on the fact that it's a spell and you attack with that spell to deal damage with that spell. Id doesn't matter is you can cast another spell while the spell is going on or not. If I have a fighter 15/wizard 2/druid 3 and have cast flameblade and then latter chill touch, when I make an attack chill touch, flame blade, chill touch, flame blade why is one a spell and one not. Both had attacks that happened after the casting, why does it matter if the delay was in or out of one round? Both are spells and attacking with them is attacking with a spell to cause the spell to do damage.
So by your rationale, your fighter 15/wizard 2/druid 3 would get to make a free attack with their Flame Blade or Chill Touch because it's part of the spell and since they've already cast it it doesn't count against their attack actions?
I never said the spell stops being a spell. I said that the attack roll is no longer the spell. The attack roll is your attack roll, and is a standard action used on your turn. Flame Blade is a spell with a duration, and therefore the damage done is done by the spell, but the attack roll is not in any way part of the spell itself.
With Flame Blade you can continue casting spells and the Flame Blade stays in your hand. The reason for this is because even though it makes your attacks a melee touch attack, it's not a spell with a range of touch. It doesn't hold a charge, it has a direct effect that lasts a set time.
Chill Touch is a held charge that you can continue holding until you touch a number of creatures equal to your level. When you cast another spell, the held charge is dissipated.
With any Ray spell, the attack roll is a part of casting the spell. You cannot cast the spell without making the attack roll. Weapon Focus [ray] modifies the attack roll of the ray, the ray is the spell.
For the purposes of the answering the OP's post, Weapon Focus [longsword] would modify the attack roll when trying to hit someone with a Shadow Weapon that was in the shape of a longsword. It isn't modifying the spell, it is modifying your attack roll when you use a standard action to attack on the following rounds.
Power Attack likewise modifies your attack and damage rolls, it doesn't modify the weapons (spells) damage roll. It modifies your ability to deal damage by sacrificing accuracy on your attack to put more strength into the swing. That's modifying you, not the spell.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Power Attack is chosen when you make an attack, casting the spell does not include an attack in the spell.
Range 0 ft.
Effect one shadow weapon
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
Drawing upon the Plane of Shadow, you shape a quasi-real masterwork melee weapon of a type you are proficient with. You may use this weapon to make attacks as if it were a real weapon, dealing normal damage for a weapon of its type. The first time you hit a creature with the weapon, it may make a Will save to disbelieve; failure means the weapon deals damage normally, success means it only takes 1 point of damage from the weapon’s attacks. The weapon only deals 1 point of damage to objects.
If an attacked creature has spell resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the shadow weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the target may save to disbelieve as normal.
At 5th level, the weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus. At 10th-level, you may increase the enhancement bonus to +2 or add the frost or keen weapon property. The frost and keen properties have no effect if the target makes its disbelief save.
The spell ends if the weapon leaves your possession.
The will save is based on the DC of the spell, which is determined at the casting time of the spell. Using Spell Perfection
the spell would get double the bonuses to the spells hit/DC/bypassing Spell Resistance. The shadow weapon would get a bonus from Weapon Focus (weapon summoned), just like scorching ray would get a bonus from Weapon Focus (ray).
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one or more rays
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
Power Attack would not effect the spell because it affects all melee attacks made, not the spell. You take a penalty on the attack role, the damage does extra damage. If you wanted to house rule the bonus from Power Attack to affect the shadow weapon and have it's bonuses doubled then you would also have to double the penalty. If you Quicken a True Strike to give yourself a +20 to the attack role, you would not get a +40 because of Spell Perfection. Those abilities target the attack role, not the spell.
So by your rationale, your fighter 15/wizard 2/druid 3 would get to make a free attack with their Flame Blade or Chill Touch because it's part of the spell and since they've already cast it it doesn't count against their attack actions?
He has 4 attacks from bab and uses 2 for flameblade and 2 for chill touch. lets say he has a quacking rod so it costs no standard action to cast. No free attack from casting was taken (free 5' in to avoid AoO). See none of the attacks happened at the 'instant' of cast and all happened after casting. Didn't matter which spell it was. By your way of thinking none would be attacks from the casting of the spell.
Dunno; that's a good rules question for the Rules forums and the FAQ.James,
If you have say Spell Perfection(Shadow Weapon) and you make a longsword with it. Let's say you also have Weapon Focus (Longsword). Would you get double the benefit of Weapon Focus(Longsword) from having a Spell Perfected version of Shadow Weapon create a longsword? Would this also apply to say, Power Attack if you use it with the spell perfected Shadow Weapon?
Thanks in advance
And, well, that was a disappointing answer.
So, FAQ'ing I will go.
Necro?
Let's see what others think, so that at least some more people can hit faq.
i hit FAQ because this is an interesting debate.
so far i'm up in the air on the whole subject, but i have to say that Aravantar's argument that a blame blade or shadow weapon dont count as spells after the instant the spell is cast is flat out stupid. (no offense) a spell is a spell is a spell. if the effect, weather it lasts as an object after casting or not, can be dispelled, then its a spell. because this is true, and no one here would argue that a shadow weapon could not be dispelled, then no matter what kind of action you are making when attacking, you are attacking WITH A SPELL. you go on to say that the reason numerical values arn't modified is because those numbers arnt listed in the spell the same way that a ray is listed. well look at this:
Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target
You may use this weapon to make attacks as if it were a real weapon
Your successful melee touch attack deals
all of these phrases are referencing attack rules that are not listed under the spells section of the CRB. these are all attack rules for EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME. i.e. they are universal. the ranged touch attack mentioned in a ray spell is a ranged touch attack, which is in itself not a spell. the melee touch attack from shocking grasp is a melee touch attack, in itself not a spell. the melee attack from shadow weapon is a melee attack, in itself not a spell. they are all just pointing to the specific delivery method the spell wants you to use in order to deliver the damage. thats it, nothing more. its not "part of the spell" as you say.
what makes touch spells different is that casting the spell grants you a free attack as part of the spell. that doesnt mean that the attack is in itself magical, just that part of the effect of the spell is that you get a free attack. the same can be said for a spell such as haste. it also grants additional attacks, they just arnt part of the standard action used to cast the spell. the free attack from a touch spell has to do with the action economy of tat specific spell. its included in the spell effect because the actual "casting" (handwaving and chanting) is shorter than other spells. you could argue that a spell could exist that is a touch spell similar to shocking grasp, but has a casting time of 1 full round and therefore doesnt get a free attack within that action because it just takes that long to "wave your hands around".
as to the issue at hand: Power Attack does not modify an attack from a weapon any differently than a weapon created by magic, but i would still think that it IS a feat being used to modify the attack made with a spell (in the case of shadow weapons and flame blades) and therefore qualifies on that account. however, i dont know one way or the other if the -to attack and +to damage are "set numerical values". it would depend on what the design team means when they use the phrase. i understood it to mean any value not rolled on a dice. so even those numbers listed that eventually change because your caster level goes up are still set numerical values. but that way my reading and interpretation.
one thing is for sure though - if this IS allowable, the +to damage from power attack gets doubled, but so does the -to hit from it. so while it might jack up your damage, it would make it REALLY hard to hit with it...
on a side note, i am really liking the idea of a magus or EK who uses a weapon that isn't even really there to utterly devastate opponents because they "think" its real. this is a nifty bit of roleplay.
also, the question of power attack brings up an interesting point: when making a melee touch attack to deliver a spell, if you have power attack, could you apply it to this touch attack, even if the spell doesn't do damage? so lets say i cast shocking grasp as a wizard with no weapons in my hand, then 5' step and take my free attack. if i have power attack, could i use it on this melee touch attack? what about if i cast arcane mark instead of shocking grasp? would i be able to make a touch spell that normally doesn't hurt, actually hurt?
I wouldn't allow Weapon Focus (relevant weapon) or Power Attack to have their bonuses doubled by Spell Perfection. The bonuses from Improved Trip and Greater Trip also wouldn't be doubled if I use the weapon to make a trip attack.
These are bonuses associated with the casting of the spell. These bonuses don't apply to aspects of the spell, not how I understand it anyway.
Weapon Focus (Ray) is relevant if your Perfected Spell is something like Enervation. If this works as is claimed, then shouldn't it work in perpetuity if your chosen spell was Masterwork Transformation?
also, the question of power attack brings up an interesting point: when making a melee touch attack to deliver a spell, if you have power attack, could you apply it to this touch attack, even if the spell doesn't do damage? so lets say i cast shocking grasp as a wizard with no weapons in my hand, then 5' step and take my free attack. if i have power attack, could i use it on this melee touch attack? what about if i cast arcane mark instead of shocking grasp? would i be able to make a touch spell that normally doesn't hurt, actually hurt?
That won't work.
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
one thing is for sure though - if this IS allowable, the +to damage from power attack gets doubled, but so does the -to hit from it. so while it might jack up your damage, it would make it REALLY hard to hit with it...
At least in regards to this, no it wouldn't be an issue (all the more reason it shouldn't be allowed). Only bonuses are called out as being doubled. So if this did work (which I do not believe it does), the penalty to hit would not be doubled because it is not a "bonus".
if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.