Aravantar's page

Correct, I was getting it from the d20pfsrd site. I apologize for posting from the unofficial site. After checking the PRD I found the feat listed as strictly a combat feat. However, on the first page of the Core Races section I also found this:

New Racial Rules

The final section of each race entry provides new rules options for the race other than archetypes. The new racial rules are split up into four sections, each described below.

Equipment: The equipment section for each race provides new rules for standard and alchemical equipment available to the race. Often such equipment is available on the open market and members of other races can purchase it, but many times, especially in the case of alchemical equipment, it has no effect, lesser effects, or even detrimental effects on members of other races.

Feats: This section provides new racial feats for members of this race. These feats often play off a particular theme of the race and in many cases expand or empower racial traits of that race. All of these feats have the race in their prerequisites, so members of other races cannot take them.

Magic Items: Magic items provided in this section are often created and used exclusively by members of the race. Some have effects that interact with racial traits, but others have broader uses, and can be used by members of other races.

Spells: The spells in this section are common to spellcasting members of the race. Sometimes they only target members of the race, but often they are just the race's well guarded secrets; members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission.

And then on the Half-Orc section

New Racial Rules

The following options are available to half-orcs. At the GM's discretion, other appropriate races may also make use of some of these.

Half-Orc Feats

Half-orcs and orcs have access to the following feats.

So, while it isn't listed as a prerequisite in the entry it specifically says in the book that the feats listed are intended to be only for that race unless the GM is willing to let them use it.

Surprise Follow-Through (Combat, Orc/Half-Orc)

Is actually how the feat is listed. Leaving off the second part in parenthesis certainly changes how it looks.

It shows up under the Racial Feat listing and the Combat Feat listing.
The Type/Category listing says Combat, Half-Orc, Orc next to it. If there was no requirement to be the race, then why would it be listed anywhere in the feat?

I posted this here because in the Ask James Jacobs thread, James Jacobs it seemed obvious to him that it was a requirement to take it, but that it was a good question to be FAQ'd here to clear it up.

My question arises from this:

A player of mine is claiming that since Surprise Follow-Through doesn't have Orc/Half-Orc listed in its prerequisite line, he can take it with any race despite the fact that it is listed under Racial Feats.

My question is whether this is valid or not. It clearly lists Orc/Half-Orc next to the feat name, despite it not being listed in the actual prerequisite section of the feat.

James,

One of my players has noticed that Surprise Follow-through is listed under the Racial Traits section for Orc/Half-Orc but the prerequisites don't list Orc/Half-Orc in them. Is this meant to be a general combat feat even though it has the race listed next to the feat's name or is it supposed to be for Orc/Half-Orc specifically?

(If this has been answered elsewhere I apologize, I did do a search on the rules questions board and didn't see it in any of the results I looked through.)

So by your rationale, your fighter 15/wizard 2/druid 3 would get to make a free attack with their Flame Blade or Chill Touch because it's part of the spell and since they've already cast it it doesn't count against their attack actions?

I never said the spell stops being a spell. I said that the attack roll is no longer the spell. The attack roll is your attack roll, and is a standard action used on your turn. Flame Blade is a spell with a duration, and therefore the damage done is done by the spell, but the attack roll is not in any way part of the spell itself.

With Flame Blade you can continue casting spells and the Flame Blade stays in your hand. The reason for this is because even though it makes your attacks a melee touch attack, it's not a spell with a range of touch. It doesn't hold a charge, it has a direct effect that lasts a set time.

Chill Touch is a held charge that you can continue holding until you touch a number of creatures equal to your level. When you cast another spell, the held charge is dissipated.

With any Ray spell, the attack roll is a part of casting the spell. You cannot cast the spell without making the attack roll. Weapon Focus [ray] modifies the attack roll of the ray, the ray is the spell.

For the purposes of the answering the OP's post, Weapon Focus [longsword] would modify the attack roll when trying to hit someone with a Shadow Weapon that was in the shape of a longsword. It isn't modifying the spell, it is modifying your attack roll when you use a standard action to attack on the following rounds.

Power Attack likewise modifies your attack and damage rolls, it doesn't modify the weapons (spells) damage roll. It modifies your ability to deal damage by sacrificing accuracy on your attack to put more strength into the swing. That's modifying you, not the spell.

Look at it another way. When you land an attack after casting Chill Touch, you're discharging energy from the spell. You can do this a total number of times equal to your level, unless you cast another spell before you reach that number.

The charge isn't released on it's own, you have to physically reach and attack someone to release it. Thus the attack is a melee touch attack.

With a ray, the attack is part of the spell. You can't hold the charge to use a round later. When multiple rays are created you have to fire all rays at the same time, even if they can target different targets.

The duration of Chill Touch is instantaneous, it has a range of touch, and a target of creature or creatures touched (up to one per level). The effect of the spell is to create an aura around your hand which disrupts a touched creatures life force when you touch them dealing 1d6 damage. It also specifically states that to deal damage you make a melee touch attack.

Chill Touch
School necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes

An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level.

You cast it, your hand begins to glow, you can then make a touch attack against the target you're touching (and receive his/her/its AoO if you didn't cast it before moving within range). The next round you can attempt to make a melee touch attack against a target or cast another spell, which would make your Chill Touch dissipate.

The following is from the Spells in Combat section, detailing spells with a range of touch.

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

If you had a feat that said you deal an extra +2 negative energy damage whenever you cast a damage dealing spell, then Spell Perfection (Chill Touch) would get double the benefit of that feat because it's a set numerical value that modifies the spell.

Edited to format what was from the prd.

Because of the duration line of the spell. When you cast any of the Ray spells, the ray appears and launches at the target(s). You cannot hold the ray or wait until the next round to use it. The attack roll as part of the spell is an effect that modifies the spell. Weapon Focus [ray] is increasing the chance that the spell is going to hit, thus modifying the spell. When you cast Flame Blade or Shadow Weapon you do not get to make an attack in the same round as well. All attacks you make are considered melee attacks, or melee touch attacks in the case of Flame Blade. The weapon focus feat applies a bonus to your attack roll. Power attack also modifies the attack roll.

The last line of Spell Perfection states: if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

Weapon Focus [ray] is modifying the action taken when the spell is being cast. Weapon focus [scimitar] is modifying the action [melee touch attack] made after the spell is cast.

Alright, I'll try to clarify my post earlier since after rereading it I didn't feel it was clear enough.

Scorching Ray
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one or more rays
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.

Ray of Frost
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage.

Polar Ray
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a white ceramic cone or prism)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A blue-white ray of freezing air and ice springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 25d6) and 1d4 points of Dexterity drain.

Since they have an instantaneous duration the rays have to be fired in the round they are created in. In all of the spells that create rays, it specifically says in the spell description that as part of the spell you make an attack roll. The attack roll is part of the spell itself, which is why Weapon Focus [ray] is specifically mentioned in the description of spell perfection. The bonus to the attack roll is applied to spell because the attack roll is part of the spell, and therefore it is doubled.

Shadow Weapon
School illusion (shadow) [shadow]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range 0 ft.
Effect one shadow weapon
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance yes
Drawing upon the Plane of Shadow, you shape a quasi-real masterwork melee weapon of a type you are proficient with. You may use this weapon to make attacks as if it were a real weapon, dealing normal damage for a weapon of its type. The first time you hit a creature with the weapon, it may make a Will save to disbelieve; failure means the weapon deals damage normally, success means it only takes 1 point of damage from the weapon's attacks. The weapon only deals 1 point of damage to objects.

If an attacked creature has spell resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the shadow weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the target may save to disbelieve as normal.

At 5th level, the weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus. At 10th-level, you may increase the enhancement bonus to +2 or add the frost or keen weapon property. The frost and keen properties have no effect if the target makes its disbelief save.

The spell ends if the weapon leaves your possession.

The Shadow Weapon spell itself just creates the weapon in your hand. The weapon is the effect of the spell, not the spell itself. It has an ongoing effect, rather than an instantaneous one so it stays in your hand for 1 minute per caster level. Nowhere in the effect or the description of the spell does it say that you make an attack roll as part of the spell.

Power Attack (general)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Power Attack specifically states that the feat modifies melee attack rolls, it does not state anything about modifying the weapon/item/spell effect.

Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

Spell Perfection clearly states that the bonus from any feats that apply a numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell you can double the bonus granted by the feat.

Weapon Focus [ray] applies to the spell, because the attack roll is part of the spell when you use a ray. The attack roll is described in the description of the spell.

Weapon Focus
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

Weapon Focus states that it grants a bonus to the attack roll made with the selected weapon. It can be used with spells Flame Blade because the description of Flame Blade states that you wield it as if it were a scimitar. So Weapon Focus [scimitar] would apply a +1 to the attack roll. It isn't effecting the spell itself, it is effecting your melee attack roll. The only mention of an attack roll in Flame Blade's description is that it makes your attack rolls melee touch attacks when using the blade. Not that an attack is part of the spell itself.

Flame Blade
School evocation [fire]; Level druid 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range 0 ft.
Effect sword-like beam
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage + 1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.

Matthias DM, you said in your previous post that "Spell description + spell effect = the spell." Neither Flame Blade, nor Shadow Weapon list anything about an attack as part of the spell in their effect or description. All of the ray spells do. Therefore when you cast a ray spell, the attack roll is part of the spell. When you create a sword that you then use melee attack rolls or melee touch attack rolls to attack with, the attack roll is not part of the spell. It has nothing to do with the spell. The spell is just the instrument you are using in the attack.

TLDR Version:
Feats that give bonuses to your attack roll are not doubled unless the attack roll is part of the spell. Rays make an attack roll when the spell is cast, thus Spell Perfection works with weapon focus [ray]. Attacking with a spell weapon in your hand is making a melee attack or melee touch attack. Weapon Focus [scimitar] or [shadow weapon] are giving a bonus to your attack roll, not the spell. Power attack likewise modifies the melee attack roll, not the spell.

I disagree that Power Attack and Spell Perfection would work together on attacks with this spell. The reasons I disagree are as follows:

1) The only set numerical values in the spell are the 1 point of damage it deals per attack if the Will Save is passed, which would become 2 points with Spell Perfection. At 5th and 10th levels the effective enhancement bonus of the weapon would go from +1 and +2 to +2 and +4.

The last sentence of Spell Perfection says:

In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

Spell Perfection lists Spell Focus [ray] because when a ray attack is made, it is the spell. Thus the bonus would apply since it's applying to the spell, not an effect made after the spell is cast.

If this were to be houseruled as allowable, then I would have to say that the penalty to attack rolls is also doubled along with the damage increase since that is a set numerical value as well. At 15th level that would be a -2 base penalty, so -4 to attack after the Spell Perfection doubling took effect (as a wizard/sorcerer or -3/-6 as a magus).

According to the PRD Spell Database there are 22 spells that are classified as Figments. Persistent Image, Ventriloquism, and Programmed Image are the only ones that use the words "Intelligible Sound" either in the effect or the spell description. The other 19 don't use those exact words which would exclude them from having intelligible verbal components of the spell. Yet Mirror Image, Symbol of Mirroring, and Fearsome Duplicate all state that their audible components mimic the casters exactly. So since they don't specifically state that the illusions have "Intelligible Sound" does that mean that even though they are copying the casters words exactly that they are unintelligible?

The emphasis of the arguments against Ghost Sound having Intelligible Speech capabilities seems to be that the rules about Figment state that unless it specifically says "Intelligible Speech" that it doesn't offer it.

Ghost Sound can be used to enhance a Silent Image spell. How believable could an illusory creature threatening you away be if you can't understand what it's saying even if you share it's language. As far as game mechanics go, it's not the realism of how the player or GM describes the illusion that makes it powerful, it's the DC to save against.

Ventriloquism obviously isn't a great 1st level spell, and I've seen it argued in here that it should most likely be considered a cantrip. I disagree with that, it's just obviously more useful to NPC's played by the GM than the player characters in most cases.

Is there a way for the Advanced template to be added to creatures called with the Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spells?