RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Not true. Elves believe in reincarnation (see the Brightness Seekers for the most obvious example), and every drow is a elven soul corrupted into that abomination. As far as the elves know, death is the only way to free those souls to have a chance to become elves again. If anything, the mercy offered is greater, because the souls born into drow bodies never had a chance to be anything else.
Elves can believe whatever they want. Where do they get an exception to the current cosmology? Second Darkness is pretty clear, and Paths of Prestige adds to it, they're killing to keep drow their existance secret, and post 4107, they're killing to keep where the first drow came from secret. Either way, they're committing genocide.
Here's a scary thought. Lantern Bearers conjuring Daemons to devour drow souls, to keep them from coming back.
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Louis,
An alignment system that describes pretty much every human being alive today as EVIL isn't very useful. Saying genocide is inherently ineffably evil is a heuristic that works for our world today, because we don't have any societies that present the kind of threat, even if contained, that the drow do. Hell, in some worlds, they even plotted, sometimes even successfully, to blot out the Sun itself. I tend to view good-evil, law-chaos as more of a pair of axes that people occupy percentile positions on. A set of axes that has 99% of humans being evil or EVIL when humans are the pivotal race in consideration just isn't worth much.
First, how does the D&D/Pathfinder Alignment System describe pretty much every human being alive today as evil? Does every human being alive today seriously promote the idea of genocide or engage in carrying it out in some way against a particular ethnic group of fellow human beings?
Second, I will make it clear that in terms of the games I run, genocide is almost always an evil act because it will generally involve the intentional killing of helpless non-combatants (generally considered an evil act in itself). I stated previously that a good character could reasonably argue that genocide is a non-evil act depending on the circumstances. Again, I would raise the example of the PCs taking out an subterranean city of Mindflayers, down to the last tadpole. While I cannot say that the elimination of an entire people is "good," I might not be able to describe the act as "evil" in every case. Because at least in the example of Mindflayers, they cannot survive without killing other sentient beings. Their entire life-cycle as a species depends on devouring the brains of other intelligent creatures without any exception. It really is a reasonable case of "it was either us or them."
However, the above example is an extreme case. For me, it is always a case by case basis. Unless the Drow are unremittingly evil straight out of the womb, and would remain rapaciously evil even when raised among good elves or another environment which tries to nurture and engender good qualities, I cannot say that their extermination as an entire people is justified.
Louis,
An alignment system that describes pretty much every human being alive today as EVIL isn't very useful. Saying genocide is inherently ineffably evil is a heuristic that works for our world today, because we don't have any societies that present the kind of threat, even if contained, that the drow do. Hell, in some worlds, they even plotted, sometimes even successfully, to blot out the Sun itself. I tend to view good-evil, law-chaos as more of a pair of axes that people occupy percentile positions on. A set of axes that has 99% of humans being evil or EVIL when humans are the pivotal race in consideration just isn't worth much.First, how does the D&D/Pathfinder Alignment System describe pretty much every human being alive today as evil? Does every human being alive today seriously promote the idea of genocide or engage in carrying it out in some way against a particular ethnic group of fellow human beings?
Second, I stated that a good character could reasonably argue that genocide is a non-evil act depending on the circumstances. Again, I would raise the example of the PCs taking out an subterranean city of Mindflayers, down to the last tadpole. While I cannot say that the elimination of an entire people is "good," I might not be able to describe the act as "evil" in every case. Because at least in the example of Mindflayers, they cannot survive without killing other sentient beings. Their entire life-cycle as a species depends on devouring the brains of other intelligent creatures without any exception. It really is a reasonable case of "it was either us or them."
However, the above example is an extreme case. For me, it is always a case by case basis. Unless the Drow are unremittingly evil straight out of the womb, and would remain evil even when raised among good elves or other people, I cannot say that their extermination as an entire people is justified.
When the race is defined, from the start, as being Always Evil, this is exactly what you're dealing with.
Furthermore, the anti-genocide argument swings as far in either direction. You, personally, are making the argument that, while not necessarily "good", the extermination of mind flayers is at least not "evil", because they destroy sentient life. But, if one values sentient life, the mindflayers are as much victims as the rest of us. It's not really their fault that the destruction to sentient life is an inherent requirement in their existence.
Basically, you have a mutual exclusion going on. If one is going to place the value of life above everything else, then genocide is unjustified. One could envision a mutual agreement under which the mind flayers are allowed to live with the rest of society. Sure, somebody has to die for a mindflayer to live. That sucks. But at least you're not committing genocide.
What's that? The mind flayers aren't satisfied and they want to take over completely? Sucks for you, because they're still sentient life and they have just as much right to exist as you do. So you either kill or be killed. That doesn't make it right. The fact of the matter is, unless you accept that these creatures are somehow fundamentally evil, there's no way to morally justify killing them. Without the alignment system, nobody's good. We might be neutral, bet we sure aren't good. The only way to be good, in this case, is to lay down and die while a creature that is not good kills you and takes over your body. By rejecting the fundamental alignment system that was created as an intrinsic part of the fictional universe, you eliminate the possibility completely.
Quit trying to justify a moral compromise. Accept that it is a compromise, and move on. You can't have your high road and walk it, too.
Mind flayers specifically seem quite like a race that could be talked to. I mean, they happen to all be geniuses. Then again, that very quality would in all likelihood mean that if they live, given their predilections, they quite probably will take over. Fighting complete subjugation is hardly the same as exterminating a race you have something against.
I wanted to add something about "pray the drow away", but I will refrain.
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Mind flayers specifically seem quite like a race that could be talked to. I mean, they happen to all be geniuses. Then again, that very quality would in all likelihood mean that if they live, given their predilections, they quite probably will take over. Fighting complete subjugation is hardly the same as exterminating a race you have something against.
I wanted to add something about "pray the drow away", but I will refrain.
You're going to have to work on your refraining. Not very good right now.
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This thread has depressed me. I thought Lantern Bearers were heroic, elven, James-Bond-types.
I guess I'll have to drop the genocide stuff from my Golarion and go with 'protectors'.
You thought James Bond was a good guy?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Indeed. In D&D there are some races of sentient beings that are so alien, predatory and/or instinctually violent that peace may very well be impossible (Even in those "what if we raised their babies to be good?" scenarios). That is especially true in cases of beings such as Mind Flayers who need to kill other intelligent sentient beings in order to survive. A person playing good D&D/Pathfinder character may very well be able to argue that extermination of a species should not be considered an evil act, because left to their own devices, that species would invariably seek to enslave/kill/torture the PCs and their people.
If you concede that it might be OK for things like mind flayers, then the question is merely, "are drow as bad as mind flayers?"
If you're an elf, maybe that answer is "yes."
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I prefer calling the extermination of an entire people what it is: genocide.It's not extermination of an "entire people". To the Elves it's the excisement of the corruption of their own. The Drow are part of the Elven people, a corrupted part.
Bingo. I mean seriously, think about it from the perspective of a typical recruit to the Bearers. You spend years, maybe decades, fighting drow. You develop a healthy and entirely deserved hatred of them: you see the fleshwarps, the slave pens, the demonic rituals and sacrifices. And then, after you've learned all too well exactly how horrible the drow are... the leaders pull you aside and tell you the truth: the drow are elves. Not just a subrace, they're something worse - they used to be true elves, and then something horrible happened. And it could happen to you. Because we don't know how it happens, we have only the vaguest idea of why it happens, and we have absolutely no hope anymore that it can be undone.
You think the Bearers haven't all heard that speech and thought, "I'd sooner die than become one of those horrors"? You think they don't make solemn, heartfelt pacts with one another, asking their swordbrothers and -sisters "promise me if I ever turn, you'll kill me"? Because I would. And it would break my heart to go back to killing those who should have been my family, but I'd also never, ever, ever stop trying to destroy what they had become.
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If you concede that it might be OK for things like mind flayers, then the question is merely, "are drow as bad as mind flayers?"
If you're an elf, maybe that answer is "yes."
If we are comparing the two species from a moral standpoint, Drow may engage in practices that are just as morally reprehensible if not worse than Mind Flayers. Most Drow behave in manners that can only be described as evil incarnate.
However, the qualifying difference between Drow and Mind Flayers comes down to their physiological natures. Mind Flayers generally need to kill intelligent sentient beings in order to survive. Drow do not. Depending on how one interprets how intrinsic the drow's evil to be, a drow baby raised in a good society may end up becoming a good person and productive member of that society (or at least no more likely to be evil than any other person raised in that society). A Mind Flayer, meanwhile, would always view every non-Mind Flayer in that society as food.
Of course, someone will almost inevitably bring up the "What if we raise the Mindflayer children to only eat the brains of wicked?" scenario, but I do not think it healthy to go into those hypotheticals here.
It's not extermination of an "entire people". To the Elves it's the excisement of the corruption of their own. The Drow are part of the Elven people, a corrupted part. And from their viewpoint, it's their problem and their responsibility to deal with it.
Let us not beat around the bush. The Lantern Bearer organization's intention is to kill off an entire group of elves with a distinct culture, religion, rituals, cuisine, dressing style, and skin color, physical appearance/characteristics, i.e., a separate and distinct "people." And thus their goal is genocide; they just don't call it "genocide." They call it "being a light against the coming darkness."
You can call it "excising," "cleansing," "purification," or "Spring Cleaning" if you want. But it's just six of one and half a dozen of the other, because it all means the same thing: All the Drow without qualification are to be killed.
It's essentially a disgraceful family secret, and they'd prefer to keep it in the family. Just as in old classic Europe if you were a noble family and one of your family went mad, the proper way to handle it was to shut that family member in an attic room that you don't let anyone nearby.
Actually, a more appropriate analogy would be that the insane Noble relative is killed, and anyone who finds out about the noble family's history of insanity is quickly murdered.
Indeed, the existence of the Drow is disgraceful and shameful stain on Elven history. However, I still raise the question as to how many people the Lantern Bearers have killed up until now in order to hide their shame, and how on earth they can still be considered a "Good" organization for having done so.
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Actually, a more appropriate analogy would be that the insane Noble relative is killed, and anyone who finds out about the noble family's history of insanity is quickly murdered.That's your conclusion, so far there is no canon evidence of such.
Indeed, the existence of the Drow is disgraceful and shameful stain on Elven history. However, I still raise the question as to how many people the Lantern Bearers have killed up until now in order to hide their shame, and how on earth they can still be considered a "Good" organization for having done so.People keep saying on the boards that one act by itself shouldn't be cause for "changing alignment".
At this point, the answer as to how many lines the Lantern Bearers have crossed to keep thier secret. The answer is ... totally unknown canon wise. You raise a question that there is no answer to, save to the DMs running thier individual campaigns. That doesn't mean that they as a GROUP have lost sight of their central goal... protect the Elven people from a dangerous internal threat. As far we know, the recruiting and trainers for the Bearers still keep their requirements strict when it comes to morality qualifications. As to what happens afterwards, that's up to each DM's individual story.
As I stated above, the Faction Guide strongly implies that the Lantern Bearers did whatever it took to keep knowledge of the Drow from spreading, up to and including the elimination of non-valuable people who discovered their existence.
But do let me be clear. Let us say that for the sake of argument that the writers ret-con the canon and tell us that the Lantern Bearers as an organization do not condone the killing of people who find out about the Drow or their origins. That if any such killings did occur, it was the work of Elven supremacist extremists, many of whom became Drow themselves. Fine.
The fact remains that for most of their History, and according to canon, the Lantern Bearers tasked themselves with keeping the world ignorant of a powerful underground empire of evil elves that worked to manipulate, enslave and murder surface races. Because they found it embarrassing. As I have said before and I repeat once again, intentionally keeping people ignorant of as clear and present a danger as the Drow is nothing short of morally reprehensible.
No good can come from keeping the surface people in such a state of ignorance, but a great deal of harm can definitely result, because the Drow have depended on the secrecy of their existence and the far-spanning tendrils of their empire to maintain their power...and the Lantern Bearers of all people are meeting them half way and helping to maintain that secrecy!
So, in conclusion: for being an organization of genocidal racial supremacists dedicated to keeping their shameful history a secret to the detriment of everyone else, the Lantern Bearers are not, in my humble opinion, a good organization.
I find the older I get, the less "all evil races" sits well with me. Especially, as silly as it sounds, if they are humanoid. Even when I made drow born from negative energy leaking into the natural world, at the end, it wasn't satisfying to me to have them all evil. I certainly think that it is a standard, not lazy trope. And, as terrible as it sounds, I guess I'm fine with creatures like aboleths and mind flayers who are completely alien, to be all evil. It's weird, I guess.
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Just to further the argument about the inherent nature of Drow, and whether or not they can be redeemed, allow me to reproduce this quote from p58 of The Armageddon Echo...
In Golarion at least, Drow are iredeemably evil. End of story.Are There Good Drow?
No.
I realize that this is an argument regarding semantics, but first, the question is "are there Good Drow?" and not "are there non-Evil Drow?" nor is it "Is it impossible for Drow to be Good?"
It only states that currently on Golarion, there are no Good Drow. It is clear that the Drow are rather totalitarian and cull any empathy, compassion, and decency out of their population. But it doesn't answer the question as to what would happen if Drow were raised in a Good society where compassion, empathy, justice and decency were qualities that were valued rather than quashed.
@ EWHM
I think that there may be a strong element of fear of prejudice that can arise from people worrying about elves becoming drow. However reasonable that fear is, I still contend that it does not justify the actions of the Lantern Bearers to obfuscate the existence of the Drow.
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In the move but just real quick:
Just to further the argument about the inherent nature of Drow, and whether or not they can be redeemed, allow me to reproduce this quote from p58 of The Armageddon Echo...
In Golarion at least, Drow are iredeemably evil. End of story.Are There Good Drow?
No.
This is not true. That very same AP presents neutral, non-evil drow living within drow society. See the first page of this thread for details!
Also, Black Butterfly makes for a great Eiliestraee stand-in, all while being very much her own thing.
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In the move but just real quick:
Just to further the argument about the inherent nature of Drow, and whether or not they can be redeemed, allow me to reproduce this quote from p58 of The Armageddon Echo...
In Golarion at least, Drow are iredeemably evil. End of story.Are There Good Drow?
No.This is not true. That very same AP presents neutral, non-evil drow living within drow society. See the first page of this thread for details!
Also, Black Butterfly makes for a great Eiliestraee stand-in, all while being very much her own thing.
That's how they trick you. The question was "are there good drow?" to which the answer was "No," not "are there neutral drow?" There clearly are non-evil neutral drow, which indicates that some members of this cruel race and culture can be redeemed.
Is Shensen good?
If I'm not mistaken, her background says she was a drow baby that a druid reincarnated out of guilt and she came back an aquatic half-elf.
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Is Shensen good?
If I'm not mistaken, her background says she was a drow baby that a druid reincarnated out of guilt and she came back an aquatic half-elf.
If that's really her background (and a quick Google search doesn't tell me one way or the other), is that an argument for drow that can be redeemed or evidence that supports the idea that you have to kill them and bring them back as something other than drow before you can redeem them?
It's from the NPC guide.
And it's neither, only an observation.
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According to James Jacobs all evil/some good Drow is up to the DM (and the players).
So everybody is right in their own campaigns.
The problem comes when people want to tell you you are having bad wrong fun if your way of playing doesn't match theirs.
I would suggest that if being playing a class or race that advocates genocide is the cause of a moral quandary then you have 3 options.
1. All X is EVIL no exceptions (unless you are invoking the rule of cool but it has to be COOL)
2. There is a moral quandary and you milk it for all of its angsty role playing goodness, be conflicted, tarnished heroes try and make a difference and so on.
3. Everybody is not Evil it is society that imposes EVIL on people - you can change the world for GOOD, evil races will become good if you can show the right way to live.
I play option 1 because I while I have played 2 and 3 and enjoyed both ways a lot, its not what I am looking for at this time in my life.
Nobody is wrong playing any option but I suggest you establish with the GM and other players what option you are playing and if that will fit into your world view.
Ignore anybody that tells you your way is wrong or try's to shut you down for sharing the way you play.
I look at the ideas people here share take them twist them to my purpose and use them in my games....
I have taken Mikazies monster orphanage and twisted the idea for my drow campaign becomes an Agoge where the monsters that survive are indoctrinated and trained to be the elite personal guard of the ruler of the city. Those judged too weak become Apothetae in my Drow version of Mount Taygetos. Those skilled but too independent or uncontrollable are sent to the cities ludi to train for the arena so that the mobs blood lust can be sated.
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It's not just fear of mere prejudice--as it...we don't serve your pointy-eared kind here. It's fear of a full-scale pogrom motivated by omg, if we don't eradicate the elves we'll never be rid of the drow, and eventually one of their existential threat plots is going to work.
The existential fear at the height of Elven society - the bit of it that knows of the origin of the Drow - is that such perceptions are right: that Elves cannot live on Golarion without eventually all becoming Drow, that the planet is inimical to Elvendom. It's not their world, after all, no matter how much success they had colonizing it before the Age of Darkness.
Except that there is also evidence to suggest it is not inevitable that Elves become Drow on Golarion.
There are at least two documented, canon Elven cultures on Golarion which survived Earthfall besides Drow, one of whom even experienced the same conditions the Drow did.
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Except that there is also evidence to suggest it is not inevitable that Elves become Drow on Golarion.
Fear is not reasonable ;)
If it is true, though, doesn't it follow that whatever the Elves try to slow or halt their inevitable fate is doomed to failure? Try to fight the Drow on their own terms...end up becoming them. Retreat to Castrovel...the Drow take over the portal infrastructure and take the fight to you. Hand the problem off to the other surface races...face their eventual wrath as you're caught up in the pogrom. It's an interesting, tragic, paradox Elvendom on Golarion has caught itself in.
Fear is not reasonable ;)
You have that right.
& that right there, is likely the greatest stumbling block in the whole deal. Until the Elves of Kyonin overcome their fears, they are doomed.
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& that right there, is likely the greatest stumbling block in the whole deal. Until the Elves of Kyonin overcome their fears, they are doomed.
They won't, of course, because Golarion's timeline doesn't advance :P
In all seriousness, one of the options for the PCs at the end of Second Darkness was to reveal the Dark Fate to most of the Elves - who had the secret kept from them by the height of their society - if not the world.
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Mikaze, it seems we're just simply going to have to disagree. You want drow to just be elves with black skin and white hair, while I want drow to be fundamentally different and more than just chocolate elves. I'm glad we've at least gotten to the root of the issue and identified it.
Actually, that's not just what I want them to be. There can be real fundamental differences between Vanilla elves and drow beyond one being Always Evil. Take the cultural differences between the Dunmer and Altmer in the Elder Scrolls verse for example. There can be real divides and cultural depth that make the races distinct that don't hinge on alignment and don't lead into nasty "just fireball the nursery" situations.
I'm sorry that you've had such poor experiences and that games with those elements often veer into territory you don't feel comfortable with. I haven't had those experiences.
My first experiences with the game were nothing but those. Nearly drove me from the game, but the novels and reading the game material(especially Planescape) kept me holding on even when I was burnt out on actually playing.
Is Shensen good?
If I'm not mistaken, her background says she was a drow baby that a druid reincarnated out of guilt and she came back an aquatic half-elf.
Yep! Just like her original drow FR counterpart. (who appeared in Shackled City IIRC?)
I have taken Mikazies monster orphanage and twisted the idea for my drow campaign
3. is the particular style I prefer(am starved for).
Keep in mind that not a single member of the Winter Council, including the ones that became drow, were Lantern Bearers. Good alignment, natch. THe Winter Council was basically LN or CN.
The major protagonist wanted to call down a Second Darkness to kill the drow, regardless of the cost against non-elven nations in so doing. That's what flipped her over the edge...true racism, to the bone.
She then switched her target to Kyonin, heh.
Keep in mind that if you've a Good organization, then seeing people who know about the drow would have had two causes:
They fought the drow and got away, and thus are potential allies and too valuable to kill.
They dealt with the drow on a friendly basis, or at least a non-hostile, which cannot be permitted. Said people were probably killed to deprive the drow of surface world allies, and to prevent others from following in their footsteps. Others were probably simply mind-wiped into forgetting about the drow if they had no other dealings, simply to stop them from wagging tongues.
Keep in mind they have to be Good, and use Good means and justifications, not wholesale slaughter. They can kill potential agents and trade partners and spies of the Drow, and indeed, would be very foolish NOT to do so. Indeed, the fact the news didn't get out until recently shows they had a successful, subtle hand, that does NOT go hand-in-hand with killing everyone who got a look at drow.
==Aelryinth