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Hey, I'm new here to the forums, but have been playing DnD and pathfinder for a while. I'm also a second time GM. My first time resulted in everyone becoming overpowered and thus I ended it. In this game I have been doing a great job at keeping everyone regularly powerful, but I have a problem. Well by a problem I mean a bunch.
A) A person in my group who only plays rangers is playing one (shocking) and is using the order of bow initiate and I allowed it. He is always hitting, his skills are through the roof and his Hp(90) is rather high for a d10/d8. His damage though is what bothers me and he crits often with a only nat 20 weapon, what do I do?
B) The current levels in my game are close but still all over the place. 4 level 5's, 3 level 6's, 2 level 8's, and a level 9. How should I get them all up to level 8 or 9 within 2-3 sessions in order to balance it out for a big battle? Also what should my groups CR be?
C) A couple of my players are new and have picked difficult starting classes, (i.e summoner and cavalier)so should I have them scrap their characters or have them do a complete overhaul?
D) 4 people (a level 5 inquisitor, level 3 cleric/6 sorc, level 8 oracle, and level 6 paladin) are focused/can do healing. So how do I keep the fire on and make it more challenging?
E) I'm looking for a way to challenge this group of 10 players(currently a dragon hunting campaign, but will go into demons soon). So does anyone have any ideas of what I can throw their way for a challenge?
F) They are all in a guild and the Inquisitor is leader and likes to boss everyone around. He has sent them (without going himself) on dangerous missions(one of which got them arrested). How should I deal with him?
I'll go ahead and post their classes, races, and levels below, thank you.
Level 5 Fetchling summoner
Level 5 Suli Inquisitor
Level 5 Human Druid
Level 5 Catfolk Cavalier
Level 6 Aasimar Paladin
Level 6 Goblin Rouge
Level 6 Ogre Barbarian
Level 8 Human Oracle 3/Fighter 2/ Sacred arrow 3
Level 8 Ranger 5/Order of Bow 3
Level 9 Wayveran Sorcerer 6/Cleric 3
I don't want to have another restart, but if required I will.
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I have a group of 9, druid has a scouty type AC, no summoning, pally has weapon divine bond, cavalier has a mount but only occasionally does he come into play. Making a challenging balanced encounter usually results in at least two near deaths each time. Our combats take at leats two hours for an encounter of any substance. And we have a time limit on completing your turn or you lose it. It still takes too long and is too cumbersome. 9 players is stressful to keep engaged and keeps things rolling steadily, 10 and I start to lose my mind. In case it matters, which it may only a tiny bit, I am a GM of quite a few years experience going back to 1st ed.
You have 10 players, including a druid, summoner, cavalier, paladin, and a sorcerer/cleric. I will assume that they have mounts, and AC, and the summoner has an eidolon. Even without the socerer/cleric summoning, thats a small army. Whew, you definitely like a challenge! I seriously doubt I could successfully run your group, so the fact you are still going is testament to your endurance and persistence at the very least.
You are probably noticing at the very least that it is hard to make an encounter that doesnt verge on mass combat and your significant combats likely take several hours or more to resolve with this large a group.
Here are a few suggestions:
1. Sounds like you have a mix of 3.5 and Pathfinder. This can be confusing to new players and can also lead to headaches for you since mixing and matching has not been playtested and could result in some seriously OP builds that you may not be able to handle in a group this big without causing a slaughter of the rest of the party. I suggest picking a game system and going with just that one.
2. If you have new players, this can be hard to pay enough attention to them with this big a group. If you have experienced players, assign your veterans to each assist one of the newbies.
3. Use initiative cards and give people a time limit to complete their turn or they get skipped. Think NFL draft only more like 1 minute. Maybe cut the new players a bit fo slack in this area, but not too much.
4. Ban all ACs, summoning, attacking mounts, and cohorts. You have too many people in your group already at 10. If you allow any of these extras, you basically have a walking army.
5. It sounds like you have several side issues, with possibly a fudging, OP, or at least superior player running the archer. Also, a personality issue with the inquisitor. New players running classes that can be difficult, although a cavalier is not that hard IMO and the summoner just needs veteran help to get his eidolon right and hes okay too. All in all, a hard environment to throw new players into and ensure they get the right experiences to keep their excitement about gaming.
6. Lastly, in my experience with a large group, you are going to have to seriously even the score on action economy in significant battles. They have over 10 combatants taking actions per melee round, so you need something close. Several BBEGs simultaneously, lots of minions, and feel free to use swarms. These last can cause serious problems until your group learns to deal with them. All of these take up actions to move, deal with swarms, etc. You can also do things like have several threats at once, including one that requires several players work together to hold back a trap, keep a breaking flood dam in check etc. You will also have to include surprise and a very favorable environment for the BBEGs in order to keep it challenging. You seem to have quite a few archers, so you need to make their environment something with limited visibility probably at least occasionally, like a forest. Adding the advanced template, maxing hps per die, and adding a few character levels onto monsters are also good ways to keep up the challenge level.
TL; DR - You have bitten off a lot to chew, and have some potentially serious issues running this group if you don't address them. The very best advice is half the group, or at least reduce it to like 6-7 players. If thats truly not an option, you will just have to slog it out as best you can. You should talk to the players though and explain that it is a lot to take on this large a group, and they may have to make some sacrifices over having everything they want if you are to pull it off. If they balk, you can just require they reduce the # of players.
EDIT- I saw afterwards you asked about CR. Your group is too big for CR to apply anymore. I suggest googling Monte Cook's three part articles on running large groups (they can also be searched for here and found on the Paizo boards) to assist in determining challenges for your group.
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Would it be possible to split the group and have them play the same campaign on different days? You could have two separate parties of five or mix it up from week to week. It seems like most of your problems would be solved with a smaller group - it'll increase your ability to challenge them and increase the amount of attention you can pay to the new players, helping them with their classes.
Aside from that, I'd suggest trying more encounters (to wear down resources) and using more monsters per encounter (because 10 PCs ganging up on one monster is difficult to handle).
For F) you could tell the player that he's abusing his character's role and nicely ask him to tone it down, or you could remove him from the leadership position IC for irresponsible leadership.
I have a group of 9, druid has a scouty type AC, no summoning, pally has weapon divine bond, cavalier has a mount but only occasionally does he come into play. Making a challenging balanced encounter usually results in at least two near deaths each time. Our combats take at leats two hours for an encounter of any substance. And we have a time limit on completing your turn or you lose it. It still takes too long and is too cumbersome. 9 players is stressful to keep engaged and keeps things rolling steadily, 10 and I start to lose my mind. In case it matters, which it may only a tiny bit, I am a GM of quite a few years experience going back to 1st ed.
You have 10 players, including a druid, summoner, cavalier, paladin, and a sorcerer/cleric. I will assume that they have mounts, and AC, and the summoner has an eidolon. Even without the socerer/cleric summoning, thats a small army. Whew, you definitely like a challenge! I seriously doubt I could successfully run your group, so the fact you are still going is testament to your endurance and persistence at the very least.
You are probably noticing at the very least that it is hard to make an encounter that doesnt verge on mass combat and your significant combats likely take several hours or more to resolve with this large a group.
Here are a few suggestions:
1. Sounds like you have a mix of 3.5 and Pathfinder. This can be confusing to new players and can also lead to headaches for you since mixing and matching has not been playtested and could result in some seriously OP builds that you may not be able to handle in a group this big without causing a slaughter of the rest of the party. I suggest picking a game system and going with just that one.
2. If you have new players, this can be hard to pay enough attention to them with this big a group. If you have experienced players, assign your veterans to each assist one of the newbies.
3. Use initiative cards and give people a time limit to complete their turn or they get skipped. Think NFL draft only more like 1 minute. Maybe cut the new players a bit fo slack in this area, but not too much.
4. Ban all ACs, summoning, attacking mounts, and cohorts. You have too many people in your group already at 10. If you allow any of these extras, you basically have a walking army.
5. It sounds like you have several side issues, with possibly a fudging, OP, or at least superior player running the archer. Also, a personality issue with the inquisitor. New players running classes that can be difficult, although a cavalier is not that hard IMO and the summoner just needs veteran help to get his eidolon right and hes okay too. All in all, a hard environment to throw new players into and ensure they get the right experiences to keep their excitement about gaming.
6. Lastly, in my experience with a large group, you are going to have to seriously even the score on action economy in significant battles. They have over 10 combatants taking actions per melee round, so you need something close. Several BBEGs simultaneously, lots of minions, and feel free to use swarms. These last can cause serious problems until your group learns to deal with them. All of these take up actions to move, deal with swarms, etc. You can also do things like have several threats at once, including one that requires several players work together to hold back a trap, keep a breaking flood dam in check etc. You will also have to include surprise and a very favorable environment for the BBEGs in order to keep it challenging. You seem to have quite a few archers, so you need to make their environment something with limited visibility probably at least occasionally, like a forest. Adding the advanced template, maxing hps per die, and adding a few character levels onto monsters are also good ways to keep up the challenge level.
TL; DR - You have bitten off a lot to chew, and have some potentially serious issues running this group if you don't address them. The very best advice is half the group, or at least reduce it to like 6-7 players. If thats truly not an option, you will just have to slog it out as best you can. You should talk to the players though and explain that it is a lot to take on this large a group, and they may have to make some sacrifices over having everything they want if you are to pull it off. If they balk, you can just require they reduce the # of players.
EDIT- I saw afterwards you asked about CR. Your group is too big for CR to apply anymore. I suggest googling Monte Cook's three part articles on running large groups (they can also be searched for here and found on the Paizo boards) to assist in determining challenges for your group
I like all these ideas, but I doubt I can split the group. The ranger has a tiger already. Also, do you mean that I should get rid of the summoners Eidonlon? I've had the idea about the intiative thing myself, so I'll start implementing it. Just 3 weeks ago, I had this great idea and used it with this blue dragon sorcerer, who had a good amount of AoE's, but when I got to using her, she was defeated after 3-4 rounds. She managed to reduce HP to about 2/3 of what they normally are. I'm thinking maybe 2 firegiants as they are going to be going to a Red dragons layer soon enough.
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The ranger has to take the alternative to an AC, which is the group buff, the druid has to take a domain, and the summoner should honestly pick a different class. We have banned summoners in our group, not because they are unbalanced, but because we are limiting the number of combatants. Similarly, I told my conjuration specialist wizard that he will not be casting summon monster as long as we are the size we are. Yes these seem extreme, but at least for me and most other GMs its one of the few ways you can try to maintain some sanity in balancing encounters. If the cavalier or paladin has a mount that fights, it now becomes a non-combatant, at least unless it is attacked. No hounds, flanking warhorses, etc.
I neglected to mention we also ban crafting feats except for potions and scrolls, and use a 15pt buy. Magic items are not for sale in every settlement, and their WBL is about 1-2 levels lower than it should be. Even with all these changes, it is still hard as crap to run this many PCs.
That is the main reason you will see people suggest splitting the group, because you have to limit the game so much, its starts resembling something different than normal Pathfinder. If your players really want to all stick together that bad, they will agree to drastic changes in order to help you out. If they complain that these characters are already who they are, its time for a reboot, this time with clear limitations up front.
Just to be clear, I am not telling you this is the only way you can run a big group, just sharing with you what I have learned the hard way over time and read from the experiences of other GMs on these boards. I am certainly not an authority on GMing, so maybe your experiences will be different than mine.
To possibly give you some perspective:
In order to challenge my group of 9 8th lvl chars, I have to throw downright nasty encounters at the party. The BBEGs have to be plentiful or about +5 CR or they never survive to get even one action in a combat. I use a lot of highly efficient, deadly minions, only a level or so lower than the party CR, and often throw swarms or undead in the mix to cause some serious discomfort. Anything less is a cakewalk, and that is with my party already stripped down for sanity's sake. Where things can go very wrong is that if the +5 CR bad guy gets a free round on the wrong character, they are dead, one-shotted. So it becomes a game of careful balance between your PCs steamrolling stuff and a TPK.
All that said, running a big group can be extremely fun, rewarding, and memorable, as long as everyone understands they have to bend some in order for the GM to not be stressed out running the game. Good Luck!
The ranger has to take the alternative to an AC, which is the group buff, the druid has to take a domain, and the summoner should honestly pick a different class. We have banned summoners in our group, not because they are unbalanced, but because we are limiting the number of combatants. Similarly, I told my conjuration specialist wizard that he will not be casting summon monster as long as we are the size we are. Yes these seem extreme, but at least for me and most other GMs its one of the few ways you can try to maintain some sanity in balancing encounters. If the cavalier or paladin has a mount that fights, it now becomes a non-combatant, at least unless it is attacked. No hounds, flanking warhorses, etc.
I neglected to mention we also ban crafting feats except for potions and scrolls, and use a 15pt buy. Magic items are not for sale in every settlement, and their WBL is about 1-2 levels lower than it should be. Even with all these changes, it is still hard as crap to run this many PCs.
That is the main reason you will see people suggest splitting the group, because you have to limit the game so much, its starts resembling something different than normal Pathfinder. If your players really want to all stick together that bad, they will agree to drastic changes in order to help you out. If they complain that these characters are already who they are, its time for a reboot, this time with clear limitations up front.
Just to be clear, I am not telling you this is the only way you can run a big group, just sharing with you what I have learned the hard way over time and read from the experiences of other GMs on these boards. I am certainly not an authority on GMing, so maybe your experiences will be different than mine.
To possibly give you some perspective:
In order to challenge my group of 9 8th lvl chars, I have to throw downright nasty encounters at the party. The BBEGs have to be plentiful or about +5 CR or they never survive to get even one action in a combat. I use a lot of highly efficient, deadly minions, only a level or so lower than the party CR, and often throw swarms or undead in the mix to cause some serious discomfort. Anything less is a cakewalk, and that is with my party already stripped down for sanity's sake. Where things can go very wrong is that if the +5 CR bad guy gets a free round on the wrong character, they are dead, one-shotted. So it becomes a game of careful balance between your PCs steamrolling stuff and a TPK.
All that said, running a big group can be extremely fun, rewarding, and memorable, as long as everyone understands they have to bend some in order for the GM to not be stressed out running the game. Good Luck!
Ya, I'll talk to the guy playing the summoner. Also I did some math and apparently my groups CR is 7, so two firegiants (CR 13) with 10-20 level 3 minions should be about a good challenge for them correct? The druid did decide to take the domain (thank god) and the sorc/cleric never summons. Just curious, but what's there any reason for the no crafting feats?
I suggest giving your monsters the advanced template. Also give your mobs MAX HP so say a troll is 3d10 hp in the book it gives like medium HP so it will have 23 give it full 30 hp and con bonus as well.
I would let them play the class they want to play but like some other's say take away animal companions and or mounts from combat.
I would suggest you increase the level of all players to within 2 levels of the highest level character, that way the lowest character will not be ONE shoted by you mobs.
Probably going to make everyone who's level 6 or under level 7 and have the summoner make a new character at level 7.
Hey, I'm new here to the forums, but have been playing DnD and pathfinder for a while. I'm also a second time GM. My first time resulted in everyone becoming overpowered and thus I ended it. In this game I have been doing a great job at keeping everyone regularly powerful, but I have a problem. Well by a problem I mean a bunch.
Yeah, definitely a bunch!
A) A person in my group who only plays rangers is playing one (shocking) and is using the order of bow initiate and I allowed it. He is always hitting, his skills are through the roof and his Hp(90) is rather high for a d10/d8. His damage though is what bothers me and he crits often with a only nat 20 weapon, what do I do?
Well, on the one hand when you always get the chance to make a lot of attacks, you WILL get more critical hits. However, I guess what you are trying to ask is if he's cheating. If he rolls where no-one can see, if he does the roll-and-snatch style of rolling, maybe. Make everyone roll in the open if you are genuinely worried. Also, collect in all character sheets for you to "better tailor the opposition" and you can check over his skill-rank totals and his maths. It may not be actual attempts at cheating, it may be just poor/optimistic math.
B) The current levels in my game are close but still all over the place. 4 level 5's, 3 level 6's, 2 level 8's, and a level 9. How should I get them all up to level 8 or 9 within 2-3 sessions in order to balance it out for a big battle? Also what should my groups CR be?
Looking at your list below, a lot of them are what in 3.5 would be high ECL races. Plus, how did you get this disparate in the first place? If you measure XP by CR rather than using the flat figures, then the lower levels should get proportionally more XP than the higher levels and the problem should iron out fairly well. Either way, four levels is way too much disparity for a party.
C) A couple of my players are new and have picked difficult starting classes, (i.e summoner and cavalier)so should I have them scrap their characters or have them do a complete overhaul?
Let people play what they want to play, is my mantra.
D) 4 people (a level 5 inquisitor, level 3 cleric/6 sorc, level 8 oracle, and level 6 paladin) are focused/can do healing. So how do I keep the fire on and make it more challenging?
Lots of area attacks on the party. Keep the damage output high on these so they have to keep burning healing resources.
E) I'm looking for a way to challenge this group of 10 players(currently a dragon hunting campaign, but will go into demons soon). So does anyone have any ideas of what I can throw their way for a challenge?
My preferred tactic is to go for more foes, not more powerful foes, and with this party I'd read that as gospel: Don't give them one mighty dragon, give them a family of dragons.
F) They are all in a guild and the Inquisitor is leader and likes to boss everyone around. He has sent them (without going himself) on dangerous missions(one of which got them arrested). How should I deal with him?
If his character is not going along as well, why not get him to help with the DMing?
Alternatively, if he's basically being a Richard Cranium, have HIS boss in the guild bawl him out, or if he IS the ultimate leader, have the other guild members consider a change of leadership, maybe to an NPC.
I'll go ahead and post their classes, races, and levels below, thank you.
Level 5 Fetchling summoner
Level 5 Suli Inquisitor
Level 5 Human Druid
Level 5 Catfolk Cavalier
Level 6 Aasimar Paladin
Level 6 Goblin Rouge
Level 6 Ogre Barbarian
Level 8 Human Oracle 3/Fighter 2/ Sacred arrow 3
Level 8 Ranger 5/Order of Bow 3
Level 9 Wayveran Sorcerer 6/Cleric 3
I don't want to have another restart, but if required I will.
Looking at this party, two possibilities occur to me.
1) Get one player to assist in the DMing (see my comment about the Inquisitor above). He can help by running monsters in fights, so you have less to do, or by taking care of sections of the game when the party splits.
2) Split your group into two and run for them on different days. The Ogre barbarian, oracle, ranger, and sorcerer/cleric make an effective team alone, the rest of the group make a lower-level effective party.
A possibility that combines both options is to run a side-adventure for the lower-levels to bring them up to speed, but that then leaves you with a very large group. I've run for a group of 12 before, and it's hard work. 6-7 is my absolute limit these days.
Hey, I'm new here to the forums, but have been playing DnD and pathfinder for a while. I'm also a second time GM. My first time resulted in everyone becoming overpowered and thus I ended it. In this game I have been doing a great job at keeping everyone regularly powerful, but I have a problem. Well by a problem I mean a bunch.Yeah, definitely a bunch!
A) A person in my group who only plays rangers is playing one (shocking) and is using the order of bow initiate and I allowed it. He is always hitting, his skills are through the roof and his Hp(90) is rather high for a d10/d8. His damage though is what bothers me and he crits often with a only nat 20 weapon, what do I do?Well, on the one hand when you always get the chance to make a lot of attacks, you WILL get more critical hits. However, I guess what you are trying to ask is if he's cheating. If he rolls where no-one can see, if he does the roll-and-snatch style of rolling, maybe. Make everyone roll in the open if you are genuinely worried. Also, collect in all character sheets for you to "better tailor the opposition" and you can check over his skill-rank totals and his maths. It may not be actual attempts at cheating, it may be just poor/optimistic math.
B) The current levels in my game are close but still all over the place. 4 level 5's, 3 level 6's, 2 level 8's, and a level 9. How should I get them all up to level 8 or 9 within 2-3 sessions in order to balance it out for a big battle? Also what should my groups CR be?Looking at your list below, a lot of them are what in 3.5 would be high ECL races. Plus, how did you get this disparate in the first place? If you measure XP by CR rather than using the flat figures, then the lower levels should get proportionally more XP than the higher levels and the problem should iron out fairly well. Either way, four levels is way too much disparity for a party....
Thank you for the advice, about the summoner, he's also very new to roleplaying, and I wouldn't have a problem with an arcane caster class, but summon is bit to extreme in my opinion as it usually is made for veteran players. Sadly I can't split the group as most people are booked, some with other games as well. The main reason that people are offset in level is because either they joined later, or they missed big XP nights. I'll be sure to do more with the area of effects and stuff like that. Any suggestions for minions of fire giants?
Now that I look at it, Hell Hounds may be effective for the roll of minions, probably about 10 of them with the 2 fire giants.
tr:dr. If you have too many players, and it sounds like you're ready to put a great deal of effort into the game (as by your lengthy post), I'd suggest splitting into two groups who could meet at a later point for an epic battle if you wish.
As an alternative to asking your newer players to scrap a complicated character, since the characters are part of a guild, why not ask that player to swap characters to a different guild-member?
This way, the character with the more-complex class could be shelved for a while without being tossed away. Maybe that character has a different agenda or a special assignment which precludes him/her from joining the group on the current mission. You could allow the player to dictate (in broad-strokes) what their character is doing off-stage while still allowing him or her to learn and participate in the game with a less-complicated character.
And when/if it becomes appropriate to swap back to the complicated character later, that door has been left open.
Thank you for the advice, about the summoner, he's also very new to roleplaying, and I wouldn't have a problem with an arcane caster class, but summon is bit to extreme in my opinion as it usually is made for veteran players. Sadly I can't split the group as most people are booked, some with other games as well. The main reason that people are offset in level is because either they joined later, or they missed big XP nights. I'll be sure to do more with the area of effects and stuff like that. Any suggestions for minions of fire giants?
Hell hounds, Azers, anything fiery really!
Now your mistake was that you started everyone at 1st level; if the party are 3rd level then bring in the new PC at 3rd level (it's one reason for the WBL table on page 399). Generally, if people miss a session for a good reason their character will get NPCed and they get a share of the loot and the XP in my games. I'd never let a character fall more than one level behind the lead.
Try getting an experienced player to be assistant-DM, as I mention above. Get everyone to plan their actions and spells before their turn and work out stats and tactics of monsters before you game and the game will go much smoother.
Hello Jimmy.
A. The order of the bow initiate can not get all those dice on his bow as a full round action since the special ability is a standard action to use. I made that mistake when I played one, so he is actually worse off than if he use a full round action.
B. I prefer to keep everyone at the same CR. I know people miss sessions due to real life, but keep everyone at the same level makes GM'ing a lot easier. Now some will argue that having people level without risk of death is not fair since the other had to earn their. When I used to use XP I just did not have the group hold on to treasure for them, but I think the easier solution is to not use XP. I would let everyone that is behind level up to 8
C. New people should not be playing a summoner. That class is very complicated since you really have to run two characters. I would not make them pick new characters, but I would strongly suggest it, and point them into the direction of something that is easier to play. One thing I put into my houserules is that a person must know the summoner rules if they wish to use it, and with 10 people I think you should also.
D. Target the healers. If an enemy escapes and he belongs to an evil organization he can report the group's tactics to other bad guys.
E. You will need to run more NPC's than for a normal group, and customize certain fights if needed at times.
F. Don't let a player actually be in charge. An NPC should be in charge. That should take care of that. I don't think a restart is needed if these are the only issues.
Edit:I would be careful about what is allowed from 3.5. When I first started I allowed 90% of it, but as Pathfinder was given more options I scaled back. Now nothing in 3.5 is allowed except on a case by case basis, just like with any other 3rd party company. Yeah I treat 3.5 like its 3rd party for Pathfinder..
Thank you for the advice, about the summoner, he's also very new to roleplaying, and I wouldn't have a problem with an arcane caster class, but summon is bit to extreme in my opinion as it usually is made for veteran players. Sadly I can't split the group as most people are booked, some with other games as well. The main reason that people are offset in level is because either they joined later, or they missed big XP nights. I'll be sure to do more with the area of effects and stuff like that. Any suggestions for minions of fire giants?Hell hounds, Azers, anything fiery really!
Now your mistake was that you started everyone at 1st level; if the party are 3rd level then bring in the new PC at 3rd level (it's one reason for the WBL table on page 399). Generally, if people miss a session for a good reason their character will get NPCed and they get a share of the loot and the XP in my games. I'd never let a character fall more than one level behind the lead.
Try getting an experienced player to be assistant-DM, as I mention above. Get everyone to plan their actions and spells before their turn and work out stats and tactics of monsters before you game and the game will go much smoother.
In an attempt to correct the mistake I will have the 6/5 level players go up to 7th. Also, for the people who joined in late, I made them about 2-3 levels lower then what the party was currently at. Although I did end up bumping a level 3 to a level 5 just 2 weeks ago because of these same reasons. Although he both joined late and missed big Xp nights. Also I have a (another) question.
The summoner and oracle don't get along. The oracle is higher level and is the prime healer of the group and a season roleplayer, while the summoner is not very good at making is eidolon powerful and is very new (first game and age 12). Now the summoner keeps attempting to insult and pull pranks on the oracle, so it turned into a stabbing of his character which all other characters let happen(not in a city). The guildmaster had said that he should do it and that no one would stop him. He did, knocking him out in the desert no less, but healed him (the skill, not spells) and left him their. He found his way back to the guild hall, but I'm not sure if I should teach him the lesson and have not prevent his character from dying next time( I'm talking about his next character I'm going to have him switch for a simpler class) or sit down and talk with both of them. Also I can't thank you all enough I'm going to be implying things like the no mounts/eiodolon/animals,a nd the 1 minute turns. Along with the several BBEG's (2 probably) and many smaller monsters. Keep up with the advice I'm loving it.
Not just the party size, but the level discrepancy will also cause you headaches.
As people have suggested: Split the group into two, and split them by level.
Alternatively: Abandon the concept of exp, standardize their levels, progress at the rate of plot.
I'd do both, honestly.
A. The order of the bow initiate can not get all those dice on his bow as a full round action since the special ability is a standard action to use. I made that mistake when I played one, so he is actually worse off than if he use a full round action.
Good to know, also do they get the bonus damage on a rapid shot?
B. I prefer to keep everyone at the same CR. I know people miss sessions due to real life, but keep everyone at the same level makes GM'ing a lot easier. Now some will argue that having people level without risk of death is not fair since the other had to earn their. When I used to use XP I just did not have the group hold on to treasure for them, but I think the easier solution is to not use XP. I would let everyone that is behind level up to 8
Ya that's what I'm thinking of doing, but prob going to give the higher ups a bonus, i.e +1 magic shield, sword, staff, ect.
C. New people should not be playing a summoner. That class is very complicated since you really have to run two characters. I would not make them pick new characters, but I would strongly suggest it, and point them into the direction of something that is easier to play. One thing I put into my houserules is that a person must know the summoner rules if they wish to use it, and with 10 people I think you should also.
I agree, I don't know what I was doing when that happened, the other new player is playing a cavalier which is much easier. I think it is because the sorc/cleric helped build the summoner and she likes to optimize
D. Target the healers. If an enemy escapes and he belongs to an evil organization he can report the group's tactics to other bad guys.
Luckily a blue dragon sorceress did, and trust me when I say I do, but that barbarian is protective.
E. You will need to run more NPC's than for a normal group, and customize certain fights if needed at times.
F. Don't let a player actually be in charge. An NPC should be in charge. That should take care of that. I don't think a restart is needed if these are the only issues.
Ya, I'm thinking for terrain difficulty, such as the buildings crumbling around them because of the firegiants throwing rocks at buildings while sieging the town. And he started the guild by bringing his and the goblins money together (the goblin is amazing at stealth and is a great pickpocket) and bought a guild hall. So I can't take him out of the seat of power directly, probably an uprising once thye get enough members, or the paladin (who shares the same god) may do it for me as the inquisitor doesn't act like he follows his god at all by leaving the group behind and acting for like CN then NG.
Edit:I would be careful about what is allowed from 3.5. When I first started I allowed 90% of it, but as Pathfinder was given more options I scaled back. Now nothing in 3.5 is allowed except on a case by case basis, just like with any other 3rd party company. Yeah I treat 3.5 like its 3rd party for Pathfinder..
Definitely going to have to limit that from now on. This was a very long post. Thanks by the way.
If the new player is only 12 then you might want to say no interparty combat, since he may have trouble separating real life problems from in-game issues, and I would definitely help him remake the summoner, or take it away, but letting him keep it without it being as useful as he would like will only annoy him more.
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Group is too large and it seems there are differing levels of maturity. It is great that you have younger players but they do not always mix well with older players for some of the reasons you just mentioned.
Split the group. Maybe have the lower level players play together?
A. No they do not. When they use the Bow of the Initiate they get one attack only, and not they can not combine vital strike with it either.
Rapid shot requires a full attack so he can't use it with rapid shot either.
F. Did the players start the guild, or were they invited into it? If they did not start it, then the guild could be under the watch of a higher organization. Depending on how they came in charge they may or may not know that.
I would let the "player" of the inquisitor know that he is not following his deity. Hopefully that helps him straighten out. If not then remove him by the best means available.
You're welcome.
If the new player is only 12 then you might want to say no interparty combat, since he may have trouble separating real life problems from in-game issues, and I would definitely help him remake the summoner, or take it away, but letting him keep it without it being as useful as he would like will only annoy him more.
Ya, but I'm just waiting for the day when it does come to interparty combat, the Archer and Inquisitor are constantly talking about who would win in a fight, or the barbarian is threatened by the inquisitor. The paladin sees what the rouge or the Inquisitor does when his back is turned and it may get to the point where sides are chosen and civil war will commence within the guild. What is a good class to have based on what we have currently do you think. I think he could play a caster, but from what I've noticed he does love jumping into melee with his eidolon.
I forgot to suggest:
Since the player built his character based on a rules error I would allow him to rebuild it. He can still do a lot of damage with a normal ranger archer.
That however is up to you.
If the new player is only 12 then you might want to say no interparty combat, since he may have trouble separating real life problems from in-game issues, and I would definitely help him remake the summoner, or take it away, but letting him keep it without it being as useful as he would like will only annoy him more.Ya, but I'm just waiting for the day when it does come to interparty combat, the Archer and Inquisitor are constantly talking about who would win in a fight, or the barbarian is threatened by the inquisitor. The paladin sees what the rouge or the Inquisitor does when his back is turned and it may get to the point where sides are chosen and civil war will commence within the guild. What is a good class to have based on what we have currently do you think. I think he could play a caster, but from what I've noticed he does love jumping into melee with his eidolon.
Oracles are not bad in melee, and neither is the magus, but I don't know how well he knows the rules or what he likes to do primarily.
As people said It sounds like you have lots of small problems compounded with also having a large group. Having a large group is generally a bad idea, running two sessions is a much better idea if possible. It also opens up the whole dynamic of two parties can be in the same world simultaneously.
Having young players and older player often doesn't work too due to people wanting something different out of the games. You could possibly seperate the group in two and have a 'young' group and an 'old group. Where the younger group there's more sillyness and the older group is more plot of rp driven.
Do you mind saying what age you are and what ages are in your group?
A. No they do not. When they use the Bow of the Initiate they get one attack only, and not they can not combine vital strike with it either.
Rapid shot requires a full attack so he can't use it with rapid shot either.
F. Did the players start the guild, or were they invited into it? If they did not start it, then the guild could be under the watch of a higher organization. Depending on how they came in charge they may or may not know that.
I would let the "player" of the inquisitor know that he is not following his deity. Hopefully that helps him straighten out. If not then remove him by the best means available.
You're welcome.
He did start the guild, also he did decide to start a war with the second biggest guild in town (note his is the 5th out of 6, big town) by sending the Barbarian, Archer, Cleric/sorc, Oracle, Summoner, and cavalier to knock on their door and attack. They killed two while the barbarian was being reduced by the level 11 guild sergeant, then another sergeant came in with 6 more (doubling the total) and before they could leave 6 guards came in wondering about the disturbance (quickly doubling to twelve after seeing the dead bodies and the ogre) so last week they ended with them about to be arrested, any suggestions. I was thinking have the master come in and excuse the attack for a battle in the arena of each guilds top soldiers. Even so the blue serpents guild (NPC guild) has people in the levels of 15 and up. He attacked the guild based on the rumor that the Blue serpent like to close down smaller guilds.
The battle, in order to stop more bloodshed could be a loser leaves town scenario, or one where the winning guild takes over the smaller guild. That would also handle the issue of him being in charge if he lost, and no I would not softball the encounter for him.
As people said It sounds like you have lots of small problems compounded with also having a large group. Having a large group is generally a bad idea, running two sessions is a much better idea if possible. It also opens up the whole dynamic of two parties can be in the same world simultaneously.
Having young players and older player often doesn't work too due to people wanting something different out of the games. You could possibly seperate the group in two and have a 'young' group and an 'old group. Where the younger group there's more sillyness and the older group is more plot of rp driven.
Do you mind saying what age you are and what ages are in your group?
I myself am 16 and have been playing for a sold 5 years. He is the only player besides myself under 18. Now no one in the game is a saint, far from it. His uncle is the barbarian who is 32. The paladin, inquisitor, and rouge are all about 20. The Archer, cavalier, and oracle are about 25-30. And the cleric/sorc is about 50 and she is the best GM out of us (for gurps at least). I am unable to split the group because of conflicting games. The only night their isn't a game is Friday and that's because of Friday night magic. I play in two other games myself a Wednesday and a Saturday.
The battle, in order to stop more bloodshed could be a loser leaves town scenario, or one where the winning guild takes over the smaller guild. That would also handle the issue of him being in charge if he lost, and no I would not softball the encounter for him.
This is also when I was thinking of throwing in that Firegiant encounter with them about to start the fight when the city starts burning (metropolis sized city by the way, it rules over the whole country) because of the attack. The groups will split up, my group taking care of 2 and a group of hellhounds on the west side while the others go after the east side.
To the first, having PCs of multiple (effective) levels results in madness. I got told off by a grognard about this recently, but you really shouldn't do that. I would have all the PCs level up to level 9. That's assuming you're going to keep running this campaign, as maybe you won't.
Lots of DMs simply give PCs XP at the same rate, even if sometimes players can't show up.
There's an APL calculation for how tough encounters should be, but note that a larger group synergizes well, so you should probably go beyond those guidelines. I'd say use three regular encounters combined each time (as if you had 12 PCs) but that will make combat take much longer.
I tend to give a base XP then extra based on RP and combat and creativity, though usually no more then 500 extra.
Kill (well, drop) the healers first. Enemies should gain info about the PCs before attacking. And not by asking the PCs, as they will be immediately suspicious. They belong to an organization, right? Put a spy in it.
I never would have thought about the spy thing, I'm going to implement that immediately.
More info means more advice.
Well basically there next big battle will be against a Red dragon Priestess of Tiamat who will basically have opened up several portals around the world where devils, demons and daemons are coming from. This also comes into play as they're are 4 horsemen Acolytes that I have created. So far they have faced a priestess and her kobold hordes. They have also faced a priestess in training ( a human blue blooded sorceress) who has escaped and is an expert with summoning Dinosaurs. Several other misc. enemies such as the Blue serpents guild. Also they will be faced with the biggest guild in the city after the Big bad evil dragon is the leader of the guild.
PC parties are basically a democracy. There's really no such thing as a party "leader". Furthermore, if he's not going on a mission, he shouldn't be gaining XP. Why is the player even there if they don't want to play Pathfinder?
He likes the roleplaying aspect more then the combat aspect.
I think you've been incredibly permissive about what you're allowing. I don't even know where the fetchling/suli/catfolk/wayverans are. You're probably allowing too many races.
What is the ECL of an ogre? And is that player considered 6th-level? They might be higher. While there are rules for more powerful races, that doesn't mean you should be using them.
Some of those combos seem really unoptimized. A sorcerer/cleric doesn't do much good for the party, nor does an oracle/sacred arrow. You put that down twice, but I assume it's a typo. There's way for clerics and therefore oracles to have good ranged attacks without needing to multiclass.
I'd start from scratch. You don't have to start at 1st-level all over again, you could pick a level (say 8 or 9) and start there. And since you're starting from scratch, you could play a role in regulating what people are playing. No weird prestige classes, unoptimized multiclass combos, odd races, etc. You could recommend that you only have 2 healers, things like that.
You could seriously ask players if they want to continue. Seems like some would drop out, giving you a manageable number. I wonder if those lower-level PCs are lower-level because of poor attendance. (On the other hand, if they're lower-level because you're making new players start at lower levels, see the note about why that's a bad thing.)
Let the ranger player go. Cheating shouldn't be tolerated.
My game is the only game at the store that allows more then the core and APG. I like the creativity of the builds. The races are not overpowered. Ogres still only get the same bonuses an orc does but with large size, and wayverans can fly with a negative to intelligence and a bonus to strength. Suli can sheath their arms in an element once a day. Cat folk are dexterous humanoids with claws and fur. I don't believe he's cheating as he does roll nat 1's also. I think I just remeber the crits better because they one shot my mini enemies. Some people like optimizing, while others just love the roleplaying aspect of their class. But still I like a lot of your ideas, like the spy one and will try to implement them.
Oracles are not bad in melee, and neither is the magus, but I don't know how well he knows the rules or what he likes to do primarily.
I'm pretty sure he could play a magus, and maybe an oracle. I think the least amount of spells is preferred because he may have trouble keeping up with that. He has thought of creative ways of using spells though, which is good(like using ant haul to help the barbarian pick up a boulder and hit a T-rex).
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A couple more thoughts occurred to me today regarding large groups.
- trust among players and GM that everyone is working together. Interparty conflicts, cheating issues, passive agressive, sabotage, etc make it ridiculous to run.
- Compassion and patience with the GM. You are going to be juggling a TON of NPCs, combatants, and just plain info while running. Your players have to be understanding, supportive, and help you out. That means when it takes you 10 mins to complete the enemy moves, they understand. When you have to stop and take 5 minutes to find something critical out before progressing, they understand.
- Debates over rulings at the table have to go away. I suggest using a rule like this: if someone disagrees with your ruling, they can ask about it, but you have the final say during play. Afterwards, you all can review and discuss the ruling and make changes if necessary. During play, unless it it affects whether someone lives or dies, rule it on the fly and move on. Otherwise the game bogs down.
- Make players responsible for knowing what their spells do, ranges, etc. They need to have this stuff printed up and ready or recitable at a moments notice. Otherwise things bog down. A group this big will already wait 10 minutes in between turns during combat, assuming you stick to the 1 min rule, and it is actually longer since the GM has to move his NPCs also.
- During combat, group NPCs together in 2-4 separate groups, and roll initiative for each group separately. Never have the entire batch of NPCs go at the same time, and never do them individually unless they are all BBEGs. I roll separately for main NPCs, and then by groups. This lets the enemy and players go back and forth for attacks during a combat round.
- I strongly suggest leveling everyone up at the same time. Use story point leveling and have them level at pre-determined times that fit well with the flow of your game and story events. This keeps everyone the same level, reducing your headaches, allows the veteran to help the newbie players with their leveling, and leads to less complications trying to keep track and divide XP. This also allows players to miss sessions and not get penalized. Yes it can be "unfair" to the players who were there, but it is more unfair to the GM because it makes his job that much harder.
- Simplify, Simplify, Simplify. In general, anything that is complicated or individual and not vitally necessary, do away with. Things should be fairly universal among all players just to keep things as simple and quick as possible. This means XP, loot shares, etc.
- Script things before the game like wandering monsters, random encounters, treasure generation, etc. If it comes up on the fly, don't stop to generate things, just pick something and declare it. You have to keep the game flow moving always to keep everyone engaged, and this is often an uphill battle. Time sinks are your enemy.
Thats all I have for now!
A couple more thoughts occurred to me today regarding large groups.
- trust among players and GM that everyone is working together. Interparty conflicts, cheating issues, passive agressive, sabotage, etc make it ridiculous to run.
- Compassion and patience with the GM. You are going to be juggling a TON of NPCs, combatants, and just plain info while running. Your players have to be understanding, supportive, and help you out. That means when it takes you 10 mins to complete the enemy moves, they understand. When you have to stop and take 5 minutes to find something critical out before progressing, they understand.
- Debates over rulings at the table have to go away. I suggest using a rule like this: if someone disagrees with your ruling, they can ask about it, but you have the final say during play. Afterwards, you all can review and discuss the ruling and make changes if necessary. During play, unless it it affects whether someone lives or dies, rule it on the fly and move on. Otherwise the game bogs down.
- Make players responsible for knowing what their spells do, ranges, etc. They need to have this stuff printed up and ready or recitable at a moments notice. Otherwise things bog down. A group this big will already wait 10 minutes in between turns during combat, assuming you stick to the 1 min rule, and it is actually longer since the GM has to move his NPCs also.
- During combat, group NPCs together in 2-4 separate groups, and roll initiative for each group separately. Never have the entire batch of NPCs go at the same time, and never do them individually unless they are all BBEGs. I roll separately for main NPCs, and then by groups. This lets the enemy and players go back and forth for attacks during a combat round.
- I strongly suggest leveling everyone up at the same time. Use story point leveling and have them level at pre-determined times that fit well with the flow of your game and story events. This keeps everyone the same level, reducing your headaches, allows the the veteran to help the newbie players with their leveling, and leads to less complications trying to keep track and divide XP. This also allows players to miss sessions and not get penalized. Yes it can be "unfair" to the players who were there, but it is more unfair to the GM because it makes his job that much harder.
- Simplify, Simplify, Simplify. In general, anything that is complicated or individual and not vitally necessary, do away with. Things should be fairly universal among all players just to keep things as simple and quick as possible. This means XP, loot shares, etc.
- Script things before the game like wandering monsters, random encounters, treasure generation, etc. If it comes up on the fly, don't stop to generate things, just pick something and declare it. You have to keep the game flow moving always to keep everyone engaged, and this is often an uphill battle. Time sinks are your enemy.
Thats all I have for now!
All great advice thank you very much. This is why I don't want the newbs playing caster classes as they tend to take forever looking up things. Usually I have the BBEG with his own intiative and then the rest combined, but I can split up the minions. I'll bump everyone up to 9 and give everyone a small boon (ie small magic item based on what they were at) to kinda make them feel like they earned something.
I don't have any advice, I just wanted to pop in and say that you are epicly awesome for taking on the task of running a 10 player group. I bet it is a bit chaotic. Also dragon hunting sounds awesome!
I don't have any advice, I just wanted to pop in and say that you are epicly awesome for taking on the task of running a 10 player group. I bet it is a bit chaotic. Also dragon hunting sounds awesome!
Thank you, it is pretty chaotic. I wouldn't call myself epic for doing this, I mean well it's difficult, but rewarding. Also while I'm playing sometimes I need to improve it up and get an idea for a future character in a future game. So far they have only faced 1 true dragon, a blue one and daughter to the main villian of my game, The rest were draconic sorcerers who have form of the dragon and Kobolds.
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FYI - a group like this lends itself well to an adventure like Jade Regent with a wagon train or Skull and Shackles with a pirate ship.
This keeps everyone grouped together through a common device plus it allows you to have NPCs attack the vehicle and tie up some of the players responding to this threat. Even a few low level mooks can tie up player actions and keep them busy stopping the threat. For instance, a few fire mephits attacking sails=serious issue.
You might not be in a position to pull this off now, but it is something to think about.
Sometimes you also have to do what works for your group, even if it runs counter-intuitive to some common advice for big groups too. For instance, in our Kingmaker game of 9 PCs, I have them often traveling with minions, squires, raven-masters (who send messages), etc either in a army type unit or as a royal caravan. However, the PCs have to be careful what type of spells they throw around and spend a fair amount of energy and resources looking out for their underlings who are weaker. It is also easier to threaten an underling than the PC, but they still have to respond. Also, in Kingmaker, it is easier to handle encounters at times when we have a simulated mass combat. They are a group of 9 in a sea of chaotic fighting, and while their efforts do affect the final outcome, as long as they hold their own or succeed fairly well, they are going to be okay. They also have kingdon concerns to factor in, which keeps the challenge level up because they can't always slaughter every opponent, react to every threat, etc.
Just a few more adventure concept ideas to toss your way. BTW, if you search the forums here for "large parties" or "large groups" you will see a TON of other threads talking about the topic. Check them out, I got a lot of help from them when I was learning to adapt.
It sounds like you're coping well so far, but as the group goes up in level remember that things will go slightly slower with each jump in power. The advice given earlier about splitting your group into two teams should be borne in the back of your mind, in case you ever start feeling overwhelmed. Running for five different friends on alternate weekends is one possibility, while assigning four of your friends to a new GM picked from among the group (and thus getting a chance to play regularly yourself) is another. In the meantime, good luck.
This would be great, been wanting to play either a dwarven stonelord paladin or a dwarven foehammer fighter. But I do like GMing, the only person I can think of who could Gm this group most likely wont do it and if he did he wouldn't allow all the books, probably just the core, which I'm starting to get sick of, even though I want to play a Dwarf (stonlord)Paladin.
I want to hear more about the Guild, actually. What kind of Guild is it? What's the theme? What are the rules for entry? What are the rules of conduct? What's it's relationship to the city? What's going on?
I missed the ogre comment. Having reach, and an ogre's strength is not a small thing. Enemies get hit trying to engage in melee most likely so that is like a free attack. I would not allow large sized races. He also gets the bonuses to CMB, CMD, and the weapons do more base damage. Being lenient is ok, but you may be allowing too much, especially with 10 players. It just makes encounters more difficult to manage.
Ways to speed up combat:
1. Each player gets one and only one combatant at a time. This includes cohorts, pets, eidolons, and combat familiars. This effectively bans them. This is rather draconic, but never, ever more than two combatants. Leadership isbanned, of course. No summoners, have him bring in a new PC. The cavalier is fine if he runs his mount as just a mount. Basicaly, what Redcelt sez.
2. Each SIDE is allowed one & only one summoned critter at a time. This is a special exception to #1. However, you must be completely familiar with that critter before you summon it.
3. One player, an experienced player with a simpler PC, and one who pays some attention- runs Init. He not only tell you when you're up, but who is next.
4. You must be ready on your turn. You have to have the page turned to that spell, maneuver, etc. If not, you delay until you are ready.
5. If you are reading email, texting etc, and your turn comes up, and you are not ready- you lose your turn.
Next- level everyone all at once. Skip exp. When it’s time for a story Level-up, do it. Start by leveling up the 5’s, then the 6’s (which will include the ex-5’s) etc. No leveling of the 9 until everyone catches up.
Oh yeah, don’t allow any 3.5 stuff. Tell the Ranger you have to go back on that.
And there’s the list of races…. Geez. Ok, maybe a re-start is needed. Certainly no Ogres.
I want to hear more about the Guild, actually. What kind of Guild is it? What's the theme? What are the rules for entry? What are the rules of conduct? What's it's relationship to the city? What's going on?
The guild is an adventuring guild. He formed it after their first big mission and does not have that many NPC's. Recently he's been making deals with a lot of the town, giving them gold upwards of 50, in exchange for information and deals on prices. An example would be when he decided to side with the thieves guild for a couple of their members by paying them 250 gold (he got the 3 youngest members) and placing a bet that the Goblin would make it through a trap infested corridor. He paid a brothel for a constant stream of information. And a blacksmith for 10% off all future purchases by members by also giving him a free apprentice.
Sometimes you also have to do what works for your group, even if it runs counter-intuitive to some common advice for big groups too. For instance, in our Kingmaker game of 9 PCs, I have them often traveling with minions, squires, raven-masters (who send messages), etc either in a army type unit or as a royal caravan. However, the PCs have to be careful what type of spells they throw around and spend a fair amount of energy and resources looking out for their underlings who are weaker. It is also easier to threaten an underling than the PC, but they still have to respond. Also, in Kingmaker, it is easier to handle encounters at times when we have a simulated mass combat. They are a group of 9 in a sea of chaotic fighting, and while their efforts do affect the final outcome, as long as they hold their own or succeed fairly well, they are going to be okay. They also have kingdon concerns to factor in, which keeps the challenge level up because they can't always slaughter every opponent, react to every threat, etc.
I really like this idea and will have them travling soon, so I will create a high profile (prince, baron, ect.) NPC for the group to guard on a diplomatic mission to the Kingdom. They will of course be attacked on their way using what I ahve been told here by (most likely) a level 15 bandit king and his 7 man group of 2 ranged righters, one cleric, 1 wizard, and 3 fighters, most likely all around level 6-8. Does this sound about right for a level 10 group, because they will all be level 10 when they must do this.
Tonight's session went great. The combat was a rather big challenge, I guess my initial thoughts on these monsters was that they would kill people rather easily, but two fire giants and 12 Hellhounds worked perfectly. There were two near deaths, one going to -10, and another going down to 24. Others took various large amounts of damage, but they got back to full via the many healers.
Way too messy... Decide on a single character level for everyone. The players can rewrite their character at that level or make a new one. Allow them only to use Pathfinder options. I haven't played in a game with a level disparity like that in many years, and I never would bother again. It is a needless punishment to those at lower level, and any benefit to the GM and players are superficial or imaginary.
On the subject of huge groups though, I don't do that anymore either. Again, too messy. Unproductive as well. It could be fun though, so give it a try. Make a few players will flake out.
Everyone is level 10 now and the new characters are as follows.
Level 10 Aasimar Paladin
Level 10 Aasimar Paladin (not a typo, the ogre decided to play this also)
Level 10 Gnome Alchemist (inquisitor from earlier)
Level 10 Wyveran Sorc/Cleric
Level 10 Goblin rouge
Level 10 Orc Magus (summoner from earlier)
Level 10 Orc barbarian (the ranger decided to play this)
Level 10 Human Druid
Level 10 catfolk Cavalier
Level 10 Oracle 2/ Fighter 2/ Sacred Arrow 6
Now the player who was the guild master initially wanted to promote his current character who he just bought from the thieves guild. I called him on this saying it was metagaming as did the Sorc, because she was his 3rd in command, but the Goblin (being out of town and his second in command) was promoted instead so no one would have to this week. What do you all think about the party composition?