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A little background, I just started playing pathfinder after taking a 15 year hiatus from RPG's. Well A new campaign is starting up in about 3 or 4 months and after an extensive search through the various classes I will be running a fetchling master summoner. My character will not be summoning his eidolon due to factors in his background story and I find the idea of the eidolon a little cheesy.
So I have 2 questions
1) As I understand it every class gets a feat every other level and a ability increase every 4 levels?(I suppose this belongs in the rules section)
2)I am looking for a good set of feats to compliment my class and race, yes I want to stay hidden and also I do not want to "dip" into other classes.
Thank You
Is there a DM anywhere that allows this class? This is one of the more complicated classes to play. This is not a class for someone who has never played PF before..
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If you're looking to avoid "Cheesy", please recognize that Master Summoner is considered by many to be the 2nd most powerful archtype in the game (after Synthasist).
With that said, here is what you will probably be looking for:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?322770-Why-work-when-others-can -do-it-for-you-A-guide-to-Summoning-Monsters
A comprehensive list of the most powerful summons broken out per level. Feats are almost always going to be SF: Conjuration, then Augment Summons, then Superior Summons; and from there GSF: Conjuration for pits and grease is good if that is your schtick; otherwise saving throw feats are nice.
Stats should be Cha 18-19 > Con > Dex > Int = Wis >>> Str. Don't try to make your self a bad front line; especially with a master summoner. And keep the guys around for minutes, doing dungeon sweeps.
With that in mind, best race is probably a gnome; though Aasmir are also great (energy resistances can save lives, and 30 movement).
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Is there a DM anywhere that allows this class? This is one of the more complicated classes to play. This is not a class for someone who has never played PF before..
Yes this a group I played with many moons ago he has no issues with the class. I figured with the limited spell selection it would be a good intro to spellcasting as I do like spellcasters
The issue is that with the Master Summoner you're going to be summoning multiple creatures and thus have to control a great deal of creatures and roll a great deal of dice; if you're new it will be easy to get confused and slow down play.
There are alternatives to being introduced to spellcasting. How about being a vanilla summoner (no archetype)? Get your Eidolon stats calculated right and you don't need to worry about them, just roll the dice and practice casting. Or how about maybe a witch; hexes are pretty easy to understand.
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If you're looking to avoid "Cheesy", please recognize that Master Summoner is considered by many to be the 2nd most powerful archtype in the game (after Synthasist).
With that said, here is what you will probably be looking for:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?322770-Why-work-when-others-can -do-it-for-you-A-guide-to-Summoning-Monsters
A comprehensive list of the most powerful summons broken out per level. Feats are almost always going to be SF: Conjuration, then Augment Summons, then Superior Summons; and from there GSF: Conjuration for pits and grease is good if that is your schtick; otherwise saving throw feats are nice.
Stats should be Cha 18-19 > Con > Dex > Int = Wis >>> Str. Don't try to make your self a bad front line; especially with a master summoner. And keep the guys around for minutes, doing dungeon sweeps.
With that in mind, best race is probably a gnome; though Aasmir are also great (energy resistances can save lives, and 30 movement).
Thank you for the advice, gnome huh I like the idea of a small guy who hides never played a gnome either. I should mention that this a rather large group 8 players so I will definetly not be front rank
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The issue is that with the Master Summoner you're going to be summoning multiple creatures and thus have to control a great deal of creatures and roll a great deal of dice; if you're new it will be easy to get confused and slow down play.
There are alternatives to being introduced to spellcasting. How about being a vanilla summoner (no archetype)? Get your Eidolon stats calculated right and you don't need to worry about them, just roll the dice and practice casting. Or how about maybe a witch; hexes are pretty easy to understand.
I thought about that, I did print out MS 1 through 9 and am whittling down the lists to maybe 1 to 3 per level
Wow, 8 players and your GM is still allowing this archetype? I would highly recommend going with something else. As GM Arkwright said, you will be controlling a great deal of things and play will slow down, possibly too much for that many players. Other players are likely to get frustrated and bored because your turn is taking too long. I understand that sometimes you will find something that just clicks and "you just have to play it," but with a large group I think this will be problematic, especially at higher levels. I urge you to double check with your GM on this and make sure he understands what you are about to unleash on this game. All that being said, I am usually not the type to ban things from games, but if I were in your GM's shoes I would not allow this class with that large of group. If he still wants to allow it, and you still want to play it, I wish you both luck.
A master summoner does not need Spell Focus (Conjuration). He gets Augment Summoning as a free bonus feat at 2nd level and thus qualifies for Superior Summoning at 3rd level.
Since you rely on summoned creatures more than your eidolon, you might want to take Extra Summons whenever you can. Other feats should focus on buffing your summoned creatures -- Summon Good Monster might be a good 1st level choice. If none of those feats are available at a given level, go with Dodge, Toughness, or some other feat that makes your summoner harder to kill.
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I started gaming with this GM in 1981 so he is plenty experienced with the game in all its incarnations. You are right Ivan I have always wanted to play a conjurer type so yes it "clicked" with me.
Thank you all for the great suggestions and warnings, i dont want to be a burden on the game. That's the reason I started this character so early so I can study and memorize all the nuances.
D20pfsrd suggests speeding up play by rather than having you deal with every monster yourself, giving control of one or two to other players and having them control it and roll the dice on their turn. Could be fun, and I think your party members will like having their own pet to play with.
Does anyone else know ways to speed up play with lots of summoned critters on the table?
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D20pfsrd suggests speeding up play by rather than having you deal with every monster yourself, giving control of one or two to other players and having them control it and roll the dice on their turn. Could be fun, and I think your party members will like having their own pet to play with.
Does anyone else know ways to speed up play with lots of summoned critters on the table?
I read that also It seems like a great idea and knowing our group they would enjoy it
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As long as you aren't multi-summoning in the same fight, you will probably be ok. The Master Summoner (MS) can summon while another summon is already there, therefore fights can become quite ridiculous if you just summon every round. Since they last minutes, not rounds, my wife's summoner can often summon many creatures before the group even enters a room, basically creating an army between the enemies and the group.
Use more than one summon per encounter at your own risk to your game. Every time my wife does it, the next boss instantly recognizes her puppet-mastering and tries to insta-gib her. That's her in-game penalty for shenanigans.
In our situation most melee lasts 3 or 4 rds so i anticipate rd 1 summons for either offense or defense or buff the party. rd 2 same thing I am focusing on spells that can protect and/or buff
My character will not be summoning his eidolon due to factors in his background story and I find the idea of the eidolon a little cheesy.
I'd seriously reconsider either your character concept of class selection. A Master Summoner may be one of the more powerful archetypes in the game but by not using your eidolon, you will only be half the strength of most other characters in the party. The eidolon is effectively your weapon, without it you'll only be a relatively weak powered mage.
With regards to playing something easy as an introduction to spellcasting, I'd honestly suggest just going with a full blown spellcaster - probably Sorcerer given that they are both spontaneous casting classes. Don't be put off by the number of spells, the versatility is more useful than you think. If you want to keep the theme, specialise your casting in conjuration to allow you to summon monsters etc.
Hope your character works out whatever you pick :)
Just because you *can* cover the battlefield with monsters, doesn't mean you *should.* When I was playing a Master Summoner, I went with a more conservative approach; with 6 party members, there was no need for me to summon in excess. I would usually cast a buff or battlefield control spell, and then maybe summon one monster.
The great thing was I never ran out of resources using this approach; not one time in the campaign (Rise of the Runelords) did I end up out of both summon monster usages and spells. And it was really useful being able to conjure allies when one or more of the party members was knocked out.
In addition, using the more intelligent summons also came in handy. I recall a few of the party members having a hard time hitting a baddie, so I'd summon a few mephits and ordered them to aid another. Worked like a charm.
Just a few thoughts. Master Summoner doesn't have to be broken if you don't let it.
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If you're looking to avoid "Cheesy", please recognize that Master Summoner is considered by many to be the 2nd most powerful archtype in the game (after Synthasist).
I think it depends a bit, if the Master Summoner knows that behind that door the BBEG is sitting, he can go resting and then cast all his summons before kicking in the door. Most of the time there would be no need for the party to enter themselves.
And of course an enemy master summoner knowing when and where the party will kick in the door, would TPK better than anything else.
Not to mention that the idea that the Synth is more powerful then a Master Summoner or a Summoner is a complete fallacy. Its less powerful. Its just more complicated and easy to make too powerful if the rules are miss read.
Syth Summoners are not any more powerful then a Summoner's Pet. You loose the advantage of breaking the action economy that the Master and normal summoner enjoy. The only real advantage is the Temporary HP you gain, but these are hard to recover considering normal healing doesnt restore these HP.
Over all a normal Summoner with Invis and a Pet is more of a threat.
Master Summoner > Summoner > Synth Summoner
Does anyone else know ways to speed up play with lots of summoned critters on the table?
My single best piece of advice for playing a summoner is to whittle down your normally-selected creatures to 2-3 per level, and make statblock cards for all of them in advance that are already adjusted for stuff like the Augment Summoning feat, etc. You want your bookkeeping to be at a BARE minimum even with only 4 people at the table, and you've selected the class with the *most* bookkeeping in the game, and at a table of 8, at that. Do all of your homework in advance and keep courtesy in mind. =-)
ALSO--there's a pdf floating around on these boards that have all of the summon monster creatures already statted up with Augment Summoning, so search around for that and save yourself some trouble! Good luck, and welcome back to the game!
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Just because you *can* cover the battlefield with monsters, doesn't mean you *should.* When I was playing a Master Summoner, I went with a more conservative approach; with 6 party members, there was no need for me to summon in excess. I would usually cast a buff or battlefield control spell, and then maybe summon one monster.
The great thing was I never ran out of resources using this approach; not one time in the campaign (Rise of the Runelords) did I end up out of both summon monster usages and spells. And it was really useful being able to conjure allies when one or more of the party members was knocked out.
In addition, using the more intelligent summons also came in handy. I recall a few of the party members having a hard time hitting a baddie, so I'd summon a few mephits and ordered them to aid another. Worked like a charm.
Just a few thoughts. Master Summoner doesn't have to be broken if you don't let it.
Thats kind of my idea, I dont want to summon an army and have it march ahead of me I want to use monsters to shape the battlefield as well as situational summoning. Im using my spells to buff the party as well as additional shaping pits, grease etc.
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Does anyone else know ways to speed up play with lots of summoned critters on the table?My single best piece of advice for playing a summoner is to whittle down your normally-selected creatures to 2-3 per level, and make statblock cards for all of them in advance that are already adjusted for stuff like the Augment Summoning feat, etc. You want your bookkeeping to be at a BARE minimum even with only 4 people at the table, and you've selected the class with the *most* bookkeeping in the game, and at a table of 8, at that. Do all of your homework in advance and keep courtesy in mind. =-)
ALSO--there's a pdf floating around on these boards that have all of the summon monster creatures already statted up with Augment Summoning, so search around for that and save yourself some trouble! Good luck, and welcome back to the game!
Thank you, I have printed out MS 1-9 and am optimizing my selections and yes I have the 3X5 cards
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Synth actually eliminates the "Squishyness" of the summoner. It also gets the mental of the summoner with a physical god; allowing for eidilon equivalents with access to the "greater" lines of trip feats and such. You can have an invicible powerhouse that could out-talk any bard and have more HP and damage output than a barbarian, who is also a full caster.
With summoner you always have the option of "kill that caster", even if he is eventually invisible and flying at all times. Synths cannot be stopped, unless killed in their sleep.
D20pfsrd suggests speeding up play by rather than having you deal with every monster yourself, giving control of one or two to other players and having them control it and roll the dice on their turn. Could be fun, and I think your party members will like having their own pet to play with.
Does anyone else know ways to speed up play with lots of summoned critters on the table?
You get a puppy, and you get a puppy, and you get a puppy!
Seriously, I really like this idea. You'd have to work out the details in advance with the GM and the group but it certainly reduces the main problem of a summoner in a large group.
D20pfsrd suggests speeding up play by rather than having you deal with every monster yourself, giving control of one or two to other players and having them control it and roll the dice on their turn. Could be fun, and I think your party members will like having their own pet to play with.
Does anyone else know ways to speed up play with lots of summoned critters on the table?
This slows things down, horribly. Each player know has to know how that critter works, tactics, and what not. This is a really bad idea.
Honestly, I'd never allow a summoner at all, and esp not a Master Summoner in a large game. And for a newb player? Insane.
Ways to speed up combat:
1. Each player gets one and only one combatant at a time. This includes cohorts, pets, eidolons, and combat familiars. This effectively bans them. This is rather draconic, but never, ever more than two combatants. Leadership is usually banned, of course.
2. Each SIDE is allowed one & only one summoned critter at a time. This is a special exception to #1. However, you must be completely familiar with that critter before you summon it.
3. One player, an experienced player with a simpler PC, and one who pays some attention- runs Init. He not only tell you when you're up, but who is next.
4. You must be ready on your turn. You have to have the page turned to that spell, manuever, etc. If not, you delay until you are ready.
5. If you are reading email, texting etc, and your turn comes up, and you are not ready- you lose your turn.
The new-ish feat Summon Good Monster, is actually quite good.
Even though the Diehard feat doesn't work with summoned monsters by strict RAW (AFAIK), the added monsters to your summoning list is great. The Faun for example, a second level entry, can use a 1/day Hideous Laughter at DC 16, a decent control spell, plus the Faun is a medium sized tool-user that knows common. Further down the list, you also get many cleric and druid spells, including lots of remove poison/curse/disease and healing.
More versatility is always good.
It is an amazing first level feat for a Master Summoner, though you have to be good aligned.
Just be sure you have done your research beforehand, and have the stats of the creature you want. Nothing gets the Master Summoner hate going like waiting for one that have to look up every damn creature each round.
Here is a list I made some time ago, it shows the spells and spell-like-abilities you can get via regular Summon Monster. It hasn't been updated in awhile, so the monsters from Summon Good Monster are not in it.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXTPH3JxSDD6n0a0dS8eywpQ3we09d_ToBWaL1y phBk/edit
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Thanks for all the great advice, I think my answers will be
1) Have my monsters on 3 X 5 card ready to pass out to other players.
2) As I said before my plan is to be a shaper of the battlefield instead of walls or webs I'll use monsters, pits and grease.
I find the idea of summoning hordes of monsters to go in the dungeon first really boring, Well I will keep you all posted on my adventures and perhaps we can get a little more MS love.
And now for my next character scarred witch doctor or undead lord. Muhahahaha
Remember that lightning elementals get +10 to bullrush anyone wearing metal.
Create Pit + Bullrushing Elemental = Win
Thats great I can already hear my DM wishing you nothing but good fortune for that one.Remember that lightning elementals get +10 to bullrush anyone wearing metal.
Create Pit + Bullrushing Elemental = Win
:D
The two important abilities here:
Metal Mastery (Ex)
A lightning elemental gains a +3 bonus on attack rolls if its opponent is wearing metal armor, is wielding a metal weapon, or is made of metal (such as an iron golem).
Spark Leap (Ex)
A lightning elemental gains a +10 bonus on bull rush, disarm, overrun, and trip attacks when it charges a creature against whom its metal mastery ability applies.
This means that a small lightning elemental, from say Summon Monster II, gets a quite decent CMB of 11 (13 with the Augment summoning), which is quite good against a level appropriate opponent. And by using a Summon Monster III, coupled with Superior Summoning, you get on average 3 attempts.
A fun way of annoying your enemy, is to first put a pit between you and him, then after he has taken his bow out, park three small elementals by him, all trying to push him down the pit/disarming him if they fail that. Fun.
Rather than bull-rushing, look into Tripping and Disarming. Summon three elementals; send two in to disarm to make sure, then have the third one grab the weapon and streak away at the speed of lightning.
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Rather than bull-rushing, look into Tripping and Disarming. Summon three elementals; send two in to disarm to make sure, then have the third one grab the weapon and streak away at the speed of lightning.
You don't need to have the elementals pick up the weapon, as any unarmed disarm attempt lets them automatically pick up the weapon, as they aren't armed.
If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.
...dayum. That is NICE. Thanks, Leisner.
Really? He is already running a Master Summoner with a horde of critters in a EIGHT player game, and you want to add in tripping, disarming and bullrushing?!? Each round will take several hours.
OK so first feat im leaning great fortitude over Extra Summons, My character has a 20 charisma.
Ten Summon Monsters a day is usually enough, I'll grant you that, however, if you are going to use Grease and Create Pit a lot, the extra DC from Spell Focus (Conjuration) is actually quite nice, even if you don't need it for other things.
Your Eidolon will be rather starved for Evolution points, an extra of those wont hurt. So Extra Evolution is also a decent choice.
You will probable have to have it out, because having ten Summon Monster spells going on at the same time, is bad enough in a four man group, and books might start flying in an eight man group.
One way to keep it relevant in combat, is to let it be an off-hand debuffer.
This can be done in a couple of ways.
For the first couple of levels, your choices are limited, but not ineffective. For example, an Eidolon with a net is quite good. These are cheap, 20g each, and even though they are exotic weapons, it is only a ranged touch attack, so they hit quite often. They also fit in well with the whole control concept, as they deny your enemies either speed and charge actions (and, if your Eidolon wins a strength test, movement), or at least a full round.
You can also give it the feat Antagonize. And though it is rather controversial, at least the Diplomacy version is "just" a -2 to attack/10% spell failure debuff. The Intimidate version is a bit more iffy, so speak to your GM first. But if he/she accepts it, you can boost your AC to 21 at first level (small size, Mage Armour, +2 natural armour evolution), and somewhat easily keep it up. You can also add on 20% miss chance from the evolution "Shadow Form", which gives constant concealment.
Both Intimidate and Diplomacy can be boosted to +12 at first level via evolutions, and against a DC of 10+HD+WisMod, it is almost a guaranteed success against most level appropriate monster in the beginning. It does mean you have to be able to communicate with them though.
Of course, as you move up in levels, this will become less useful, but you can then switch it to UMD-wands. Now, you are probably stuck with the feats, as it should be hard to convince your GM to let you retrain your Eidolon, but it matters little, as the important part is its evolutions, and for it to effectively use UMD, it just need some skill points, and a 1-point evolution.
The constant concealment from the evolution Shadow Form also grants a minor version of Hide-In-Plain-Sight, as it doesn't need shadows, nor cover to hide. Useful if it is used as a scout. It is a bit expensive for your evolution point starved Eidolon.
Also, if you are good, Summon Good Monster really is amazing for all the versatility it brings.
Really? He is already running a Master Summoner with a horde of critters in a EIGHT player game, and you want to add in tripping, disarming and bullrushing?!? Each round will take several hours.
Tripping, disarming and bullrushing is not that big a deal, not if you have studied the rules beforehand. Grappling is a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare though.
But, yeah, playing a Master Summoner does require a bit of bookkeeping and rules knowledge to not slow down the play too much.
...Tripping, disarming and bullrushing is not that big a deal, not if you have studied the rules beforehand. Grappling is a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare though.
But, yeah, playing a Master Summoner does require a bit of bookkeeping and rules knowledge to not slow down the play too much.
Yes, they are. Since the Monster isn’t killed, the combat just goes on for another round. True, they don’t slow the combat down like grappling does, but besides the inevitable rules debate and look-up, they do still slow the game down.
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My short guide to Master Summoner:
Race: Half Elf. All levels with +1/4 evolution Point to Eidolon.
My Guide in 20 Points!
1) 17+ Charisma >Dex=Con>Int>Wis>Str.
2) Print index cards with each and every creature you plan on summoning.
3) Get lots of d20's to use for attack rolls.
4) Get lots of percentage dice (2d10's) to use as HP trackers on the index cards.
5) Get lots of d6's to use as durration trackers.
6) 1st level feat - Improved Init.
7) 2nd level, Augment Summoning is free!
8) 3rd level take superior summons.
9) 5th Level take Summon Good Monster.
10) Small sized Eidolon, Serpentine with the following:
.....a) Small Size.
.....b) Disable Device as Class Skill (you get 4)
.....c) Stealth as Class Skill
.....d) Perception as Class Skill
.....e) Use Magical Device as Class Skill
.....f) Skilled (Perception) Evolution.
.....g) Skilled (Disable Device) Evolution.
.....h) Skilled (Stealth) Evolution.
.....i) Limbs Evolution (so your Eidolon can use wands and disable devices)
.....j) Skilled (Use Magic Device) Evolution.
You really don't need many feats, so as needed feel free to buy your eidolon evolutions past level 5.
Finally, invest in Handle Animal so you can actually order your summoned monsters to do stuff. I also recommend investing in Linguistics and learning Auran, Aquan, Ignan, Terran, Infernal, Celestial, etc.
Good Traits, IMHO would grant Handle Animal as a Class Skill, and traits that would grant bonus languages through Linguistics.
Half Elf Skill Focus bonus goes to Handle Animal.
Why? to get your Summoned Monsters (animals only: does not apply to celestials, demons, mephits, elementals, etc.) to do anything, you will need a handle animal check.
+3 (Class Skill) +3 (Skill Focus) +3-5 (Charisma) +1 (Rank) means you need a 13-15+. Kinda harsh! As you level this will be less and less an issue, but ordering you pet to flank, for instance, will greatly improve their effectiveness. at level 10, your Handle Animal will be +3 (Class) +6(Skill Focus) +5(minimum, Charisma) +10 Ranks = 24, Auto succeed on all push attempts.
Handle Animal is a class skill for the summoner.
The Eidolon have four class skills in addition those it starts with. So it gets Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex) +4 other that you choose at creation. If you get a fly speed for it, it will also get Fly as a class skill. Unless you give it a higher int, it will only get 4 skill points per level though.
A focus on Handle Animal is a good idea. You can't normally communicate with the animals you summon, so you need Handle Animal to get them to do anything other than attacking the nearest enemy they can spot.
AS they know no tricks, this is a Push Animal check, which makes it a DC 25 Handle Animal check, and that is a full-round action (so they will attack on their first round, if not restrained in some way).
You could also design a Speak-With-Animals magic item, and since it is only a 1st level Druid spell, the cost is only 4000gp for a continuous-use item.