Hello everyone, since I've been lurking for quite some time, I figured its time to get down and dirty with you folks.
Sadly, as the title says, I have nothing too exciting for you, just a humble request for some advice and/or critique regarding a Summoner/Eidolon build.
As the Summoner class tends to be one of the more controversial base classes, I wanted to run my build by some people that have had experience with playing or DM'ing it.
For one, because I don't have a lot of faith in my CharBuilding skills and two,
because I dont want to be a nuisance for our poor DM who's been doing an amazing job for our last three campaigns.
Two flaws, two traits and 3.5 resources are allowed.
Anyway, heres the build:
Summoner
25 Build Points
Half-Elf Summoner/11 Favored Class Option: +1/4 Evo. Points per Level
HP 62
STR 14
DEX 14
KON 14 ----> +22 HP
INT 12 ----> 33 Skill points, Celestial
WIS 8
CHA 20
SAVES: FORT +5, REF+ 5, WILL +6
BAB 8/3
CMB +10, CMD 22
SKILL RANKS:
Fly 1
Knowledge (Arcana) 1
Knowledge (Nature) 1
Knowledge (Nobility) 4
Knowledge (Planes) 11
Linguistics 1 (Infernal)
Ride 3
Spellcraft 10
UMD 1
FEATS:
FLAW (Inattentive): Spellfocus (Conjuring)
FLAW (Shaky): Augment Summoning
LVL 1- Extra Evolution
LVL 3- Battlecaster
LVL 5- Extra Evolution
LVL 7- Resilient Eidolon
LVL 9- Superior Summoning
LVL 11- Extra Evolution
TRAITS:
Alt. Racial trait: Ancestral Arms (Shortsword)
Armor Expert
Princess
Equipment (82000 Gold):
+1 Mithral Fullplate Armor + Nimbleness= 10 AC, MaxDex:5, AC Penalty: -1
[15500]
Longspear
[5]
Shortsword
[10]
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4
[16000]
Cloak of Resistance +3
[9000]
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
[16000]
Belt of Striding and Sprinting + Daredevil Boots
[7600]
Ring of Arming
[5000]
I'll have the Eidolon ready in a bit yet, any suggestions, questions and rage-filled insults are welcome in the meantime.
Seems decent enough; what's the Battlecaster feat? Remember that Eidolons cannot have an item in the same slot as the caster; thus I'd suggest giving that belt and maybe the cloak of resistance to the Eidolon rather than keeping it to yourself. And maybe spend some of that armor money on the Eidolon.
Seems decent enough; what's the Battlecaster feat? Remember that Eidolons cannot have an item in the same slot as the caster; thus I'd suggest giving that belt and maybe the cloak of resistance to the Eidolon rather than keeping it to yourself. And maybe spend some of that armor money on the Eidolon.
Thanks for the feedback, I should have mentioned that everything posted above goes to the SUmmoner, the Eidolon Equipment will be listed with the build.
Also, I've been aiming for a Summoner that fights alongside his Eidolon, the Battlecaster feat allows the Class ability to cast in light armor to apply to medium armor as well, hence the Mithral Fullplate. The shortsword serves as a focus for the Warding Weapon spell, so she will mostly fight with the Longspear.
Now comes the tricky part.
My DM and me are both of the assumption that the "Kali" build
gives an Eidolon additional off-hand attacks for every additional limb and thus sees no Problems with this build, apart from the sheer number of rolls required.
So I thought to myself "well, why not just let him punch people a lot?"
So I read through A LOT of threads regarding the subject so I never found a clear answer regarding whether this works or not.
Eidolon
HP 75, Base Form: Biped
Large (Reach: 10 ft)
STR 28
DEX 16
KON 17
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 11
AC 27, BAB 9/4, Immunity: Fire
SAVES: FORT +10, REF +5, WILL +6
FEATS:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Multiweapon Fighting
Double Slice
Superior Unarmed Strike (TOB)
Combat Reflexes
EVOLUTIONS (Without base):
Pool: 20
Limbs (Arms), Limbs (Arms), Natural Armor, Natural Armor, DEX +2, DEX+2
Immunity (Fire), Large
(-2 Evolution pool to grant the Fire Immunity to the Summoner as well)
EQUIPMENT:
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 +Lesser Crystal of Energy Assault (Fire) (This I'm not sure of)
[7000]
Grapplers Mask
[5000]
And here goes:
ATTACKS
17/12/17/17/17/17/17 (subject to increase with Evolution Surge)
2d6+10 (+1d6 Fire)
Oh, and heres what I imagine the two look like together.
Heh heh heh; nice. The Kali build is valid, as is your method of damage. Also keep in mind you can get Hasted for an extra attack.
One note, you REALLY should choose the Quadruped eidolon so you can get the Pounce evolution. Otherwise you simply aren't going to get to full-attack as often as you could. And if you are going to pounce then it's worth picking up Dragon Style so you can charge/pounce through friends.
If you're set on the Kali then that's great, but I would keep in mind the shortcomings of that build when compared with the advantages of the 'standard' one-big-freakin'-weapon-build: less feat intensive, less evolution point intensive (so you can pick up extra defensive and utility evolutions- make him a perception skill monkey!), and cheaper when buying weapons.
Can I ask why Fire Immunity? You the extra arms would probably be more valuable, and you're rarely going to run out of hit points, you should be quite tanky.
Additionally, if you're going to have the summoner go into battle as well, maybe a higher Strength stat would be better; lower Charisma, you won't need high DCs if you're going to be in the thick of it all the time. Additionally, going Quadruped has the advantage that you can ride your Eidolon.
@Reecy
Eidolon Anchoring Harness; look it up.
It sounds like the DM is in agreement with this Kali build though, so it seems fine.
Heh heh heh; nice. The Kali build is valid, as is your method of damage. Also keep in mind you can get Hasted for an extra attack.
One note, you REALLY should choose the Quadruped eidolon so you can get the Pounce evolution. Otherwise you simply aren't going to get to full-attack as often as you could. And if you are going to pounce then it's worth picking up Dragon Style so you can charge/pounce through friends.
If you're set on the Kali then that's great, but I would keep in mind the shortcomings of that build when compared with the advantages of the 'standard' one-big-freakin'-weapon-build: less feat intensive, less evolution point intensive (so you can pick up extra defensive and utility evolutions- make him a perception skill monkey!), and cheaper when buying weapons.
Can I ask why Fire Immunity? You the extra arms would probably be more valuable, and you're rarely going to run out of hit points, you should be quite tanky.
Additionally, if you're going to have the summoner go into battle as well, maybe a higher Strength stat would be better; lower Charisma, you won't need high DCs if you're going to be in the thick of it all the time. Additionally, going Quadruped has the advantage that you can ride your Eidolon.
Thanks, most of your suggestions are good ideas, though I dont want to cheese to much as Reecy seems to think. Quadruped is right out since I want that sweet, sweet reach in combination with Combat Reflexes to Trip or Bullrush anything that threatens our Sorcerer (hence the Fire immunity ^^) and Cleric. If the Eidolon itself doesn't do the job, I can fall back on summoning packs of Celestial Lions as per the characters theme of IN THE NAME OF LIONROCK THOU SHALT BE SMITTEN DOWN!
Also, I can resummon the Eidolon anytime with a LVL2 Spell or just grant him Spell resistance when I see an Antimagicfield coming. Not that our DM is a dick like that. We kinda have the agreement that I dont spam creatures and Haste and in return he doesnt make our character roles useless.
Oh, and the initial Idea actually included Dragon Ferocity as you suggested, but Id rather not waste a feat (stunning Fist), an ability increase (+1 WIS) as well as an Evolution (+2 WIS), plus my DM and I are in agreement that DF doesnt offset the 1/2 damage penalty for the Offhand attacks, so I'd have to take it in addition to Double slice to get the + 1/2 STR to damage. Plus, the build is about standing our ground and going COME AT ME BRO while our Fighter and Sorcerer do the Damage.
That is an AWESOME picture. I love how you created your character to match. I don't have a lot to offer beyond that, never played a Summoner.
That is an AWESOME picture. I love how you created your character to match. I don't have a lot to offer beyond that, never played a Summoner.
Thanks, I thought to myself, "Hey, that character grows additional arms to fight on a regular basis, how hard can it be to find a pic where he has them out and stands still?"
Yeah, as if. Took me 2 hours in GIMP to graft on the additional arms copied from his right.
Curse my electronic illiteracy.
I actually plan to include pictures of the other characters in the party as well as NPC and Villains and then add a fitting backdrop. The campaign started on Kortos, but I suspect we'll be going on a few excursion from time to time :)
Wow now that you say it I can tell, but when I first looked at it I had no idea you modified it. You did a really good job on that. I wanna make a summoner now just to use that picture :)
Wow now that you say it I can tell, but when I first looked at it I had no idea you modified it. You did a really good job on that. I wanna make a summoner now just to use that picture :)
I can send you the working files for GIMP if you want, you can change the Summoner and/or the Eidolon as well as the Background then. I doubt you're as stupid as me so you shouldn't have any problems doing that.
Assuming of course you don't use a REAL image processing program already.
Don't make assumptions, I'm pretty dumb. I have zero artistic ability. I just pirate what I need from other people.
Don't make assumptions, I'm pretty dumb. I have zero artistic ability. I just pirate what I need from other people.
So you want those files? They're not too large, i think I could host them easily ore even send them per Email.
Ok, OP, I think this eidolon build doesn't work. I'm not certain, but I have done a solid 10 minutes of thinking about it. =)
Basically, it comes down to the fact that nothing you have picked actually grants you extra attacks, as far as I can tell.
The Limbs evolution:
** spoiler omitted **Improved Unarmed Strike:
** spoiler omitted **The basic issue you're running into is this: The number of "weapons" you possess with Improved Unarmed Strike has nothing to do with how many limbs you have. A monk might be able to attack with fists, ankles, elbows, knees, forehead, but he doesn't get 9 attacks/round. Nothing you have taken actually grants you extra attacks.
From a RAW perspective, this doesn't work. From a RAI perspective, you're basically sneaking your way past the general downside for multiweapon fighting: you have to buy all the darned weapons.
If you really want to punch people, buy a lot of +1, flaming brass knuckles. Or invest in the Claw evolution, and focus on natural attacks, which will totally work with amulet of mighty fists.
But either way, you need to pay to get those extra attacks, and you currently aren't. Props on being a responsible summoner and checking in with the advice board to be nice to your DM.
...
Thank you, what you said was basically what I thought too, but the bestiary as well as other instances of multiarmed humanoid creatures say otherwise. The argument is that a creature with multiple arms (ARMS specifically, with hands and the whole shebang) gains an Offhand strike for every hand that isnt his main hand, which he uses for iterative attacks.
To back this up, the "Kali" build I described further up is actually an accepted build which uses weapons in every offhand, like a Marilith or an Asura (the latter being my inspiration).
I know of the disparities between a Monk and other unarmed builds, but since the Eidolon doesn't have class levels, he is usually treated like a monster instead, hence the Multiweapon Fighting feat from the bestiary.
Oh, and here is where I got the Kali build from.
Oh and I "paid" for the extra attacks with the Limbs evolution which costs 2 Evolution points. Offhand attacks are like crack, only the fist one is free.
I think the main problem is that the rules are clearly written with humanoid characters in mind. Another thing that merits consideration:
What does the "Limbs (Arms)" Evolution actually DO for those 2 points? If using them for a natural attack was their only use, they would come bundled, which isn't the case. While I don't wanna bother people with it since my DM allowed it, I would LOVE an official statement or a FAQ for this.
EDIT: My question regarding the Arms evolution stems from the fact that the "Limbs (Legs)" evolution grants a flat bonus to movement speed, a bonus against being tripped AND qualifies for a natural weapon Evolution, despite costing the same.
The thing that bothers me is that using weapons in those hands would actually be MORE efficient. I dont understand why a creature can make weapon attacks with a hand but not unarmed strikes, which are considered a light weapon.
@Reecy
Eidolon Anchoring Harness; look it up.
It sounds like the DM is in agreement with this Kali build though, so it seems fine.
As Reecy also noted, that is a magical item which doesn't function in an antimagic field, so say bye-bye to birdie still.
Complete agreement with Crosswind, thanks for summarizing the issue so clearly.
@Claxon- hmm;
"Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away."
So... antimagic field goes up, Eidolon vanishes. The summoner runs away to cast Summon Eidolon... and the caster can either run after him and have the Eidolon pop back up or stay where he us as the Summoner gets his best buddy up.
Obviously the caster can prevent the Summoner from moving away, or attack and/or stop him from casting at range, but still something to be considered.
I'm not really sure which way this ruling is supposed to go, but unarmed strike says it can be used as a natural weapon or a weapon in different situations. Not sure if that changes anyone opinion or not, just thought I'd throw it out there.
The more I think about it, I think you can make all those attacks, you'll just suffer the penalites for fighitng with more than one weapon. A monk that doesn't want to flurry (for some reason) could still attack with both hands, they'd just take the penalites, the same as any other character would.
I believe the point is that unarmed strikes aren't tied to limbs like claws and talons and other natural attacks are. You can make unarmed attacks with your head, elbows, feet... So number of limbs does not affect how many natural attacks you can make. If each has a claw at the end of it or is holding a sword, then things are different...
Complete agreement with Crosswind, thanks for summarizing the issue so clearly.
@Claxon- hmm;
"Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away."
So... antimagic field goes up, Eidolon vanishes. The summoner runs away to cast Summon Eidolon... and the caster can either run after him and have the Eidolon pop back up or stay where he us as the Summoner gets his best buddy up.
Obviously the caster can prevent the Summoner from moving away, or attack and/or stop him from casting at range, but still something to be considered.
True, but the regular method of summoning an eidolon requires 1 minute of time. The Summon Eidolon spell can get him back on the field quickly, but hes much more susceptible. Dispel magic can be used against it as Protection from X prevents it from touching a creature. Not to mention that while the wizard is casting antimagic field on the eidolon, the barbarian is charge pouncing the summoner.
Summoners can be very powerful, but you can easily counter them too.
Thread title changed. Just because there is a profanity filter on the message boards doesn't mean you should post as if it isn't there.
Complete agreement with Crosswind, thanks for summarizing the issue so clearly.
@Claxon- hmm;
"Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away."
So... antimagic field goes up, Eidolon vanishes. The summoner runs away to cast Summon Eidolon... and the caster can either run after him and have the Eidolon pop back up or stay where he us as the Summoner gets his best buddy up.
Obviously the caster can prevent the Summoner from moving away, or attack and/or stop him from casting at range, but still something to be considered.
True, but the regular method of summoning an eidolon requires 1 minute of time. The Summon Eidolon spell can get him back on the field quickly, but hes much more susceptible. Dispel magic can be used against it as Protection from X prevents it from touching a creature. Not to mention that while the wizard is casting antimagic field on the eidolon, the barbarian is charge pouncing the summoner.
Summoners can be very powerful, but you can easily counter them too.
Honestly, the discussion isn't about how summoners are op/uncounterable, why is this even coming up? Besides, now you are using two characters to counter one...
In regards to the unarmed strike, perhaps you and the GM could house-rule in an "additional attack" evolution that simply adds an unarmed strike attack. Seems like a simple and fair solution to the problem, just find a point cost you agree on.
As far as I can tell, you still need to be proficient with Heavy Armor to wear that fullplate without penalty.
Hmmm.
Strike, Unarmed
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
Bolded text is why my DM and I agree on this. Natural Attacks and their rules dont even factor into this from our point of view since the Edolon is not making any as per the rules for wielding a weapon, in this case an Unarmed Strike, and he's willing to okay the build. In addition, since we're starting at LVL 11, having no ranged options or increased movement (I didn't even put Haste on my List since we all agree that it makes battles a bit too...hectic), its not like the Eidolon is going to single-handedly walk through encounters.
Also, note that its not like I ignored the Global -2 from Multiweapon Fighting. Getting 6 Masterwork Daggers would actually cost LESS in both money and character resources than UAS (1 Evopoint VS. 1 Feat) and with an improved critical range at that, though granted also at 2d6 less damage (1d6 from SUAS, 1d6 from the weapon crystal). Since hes not a monk he doesn't have all those nifty rules supporting his UAS, like having it be considered a natural weapon....though that would get even weirder rules-wise, so I'm actually glad for that.
Even though we're in disagreement over this, I thank everyone who chipped in and I'm looking forward to my time here.
Cheers!
EDIT: Also I just came back from Man Of Steel. Was pretty good.
Remember that even though a mithral fullplate counts as medium, you still need the feat if you want to avoid an attack penalty.
You can also take the racial archetype "Wild Caller".
It's usually not all that great an archetype, but it works quite well with a Kali build, oddly enough.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf/wild-caller-summoner-half -elf
And if you do decide on a weapon, may I suggest the Aklys?
It's exotic, but you don't care about that, and it can be thrown, is a trip weapon and had the highest base damage of all light weapons.
(The cheesy way to any weapon proficiency on your Eidolon, is via the extra traits feat, and then heirloom weapon)
Remember that even though a mithral fullplate counts as medium, you still need the feat if you want to avoid an attack penalty.
** spoiler omitted **
You can also take the racial archetype "Wild Caller".
It's usually not all that great an archetype, but it works quite well with a Kali build, oddly enough.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf/wild-caller-summoner-half -elf
And if you do decide on a weapon, may I suggest the Aklys?
It's exotic, but you don't care about that, and it can be thrown, is a trip weapon and had the highest base damage of all light weapons.(The cheesy way to any weapon proficiency on your Eidolon, is via the extra traits feat, and then heirloom weapon)
Thats what the Armor Expert trait is for. Thanks for the suggestion.
Thats what the Armor Expert trait is for. Thanks for the suggestion.
Ah, sorry, missed that.
An example of what a, mostly equipment free, Kali build can do:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13831467&postcount=637
Thats what the Armor Expert trait is for. Thanks for the suggestion.Ah, sorry, missed that.
An example of what a, mostly equipment free, Kali build can do:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13831467&postcount=637
Cool, looks like a good ranged option. I'll consider it.