To clarify this right from the start: I personally don't have any real interest in it and tend to mentally just bunch it with all the other "generic" fantasy worlds like Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
But obviously, lots of people have a HUGE love for it and I am quite curious from an artistic point of view, why this is so. So I am wondering why Golarion is your setting of choice (or even just one you like to use frequently), and even more so what particular aspects make it stand out above the other GreyLance Realms settings?
Is there anything unique about it, or is it more a case of taking all the best of the common elements and putting them together in just the perfect way?
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For me, this is my world. I was late coming to RPGs, but I got here about the time 3rd rolled around. By that time all the other settings had been out, been played in. Mysteries solved. Heroes died, Villains conquered. But Golarion, I got in on the ground floor.
When the doors opened it had that fresh new car smell. Filled with mysteries and potential. Fresh takes on monsters and yes even a little kitchen sink thrown in. I like that. My home brew was like that.
Only now I have a world that others share, that we can debate and theory over endlessly. That we all get to discover together.
So yeah, there are pieces I don't like. But more often than not, one of those pieces will show up in an adventure or story and BOOM. I have found something new to love.
Golarion is my world, and I cannot wait to see what tomorrow brings.
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Like Broken above, I came into RPGs late. Even later actually. The first time I played D&D was a 3.5 game about...3.5(ha!) years ago in Greyhawk. I played a few games in Greyhawk and loved it. I had also read the Dragonlance novels and played Neverwinter Nights before that, so I was familiar with a couple other worlds. I know those are all very much "standard fantasy" worlds, but that just makes the fact that I like Golarion so much even more impressive I think.
I had read about Golarion before, and I liked it, but about...6 months or so ago, I got the Inner Sea World Guide, and I'm loving it so far. I love the variety, the interesting NPCs, the cool locations, but for me what makes Golarion so awesome is the adventuring potential. Almost every page in the ISWG has things that beg to be fleshed out and made into adventures. It inspires me to make my own stuff and makes me excited when a part of the world is expanded upon (such as the upcoming Worldwound book!). In short, I love Golarion partly because of what it is and what it inspires me to create.
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I'm pretty much a veteran rpg player. I first got into D&D at around the time when 3rd edition rolled around, ca. 2000. The Baldur's Gate games introduced me to the Forgotten Realms and that became the early favorite for me and my gaming group. I've also tried my hand at Eberron (which I loved, but isn't quite my bag), and when Paizo took over Dungeon and Dragon magazine I also discovered Greyhawk and came to love it.
It was entirely based on the strength of Paizo's work on Dungeon and Dragon that I signed on the Pathfinder charter (although to my great regret I lost my charter subscriber tag when I had to hold my subscription briefly because I was moving). I personally think the guys behind Paizo are some of the absolute greatest names in D&D gaming, so when they started developing their world I wanted to be there to see the whole thing from the word go, and their world wasn't just their world anymore, it was also my world, because I saw it grow from nothing.
Is Golarion the greatest world ever? No, it isn't. When it first rolled around I didn't like the patchwork nations that seemed only to exist for the purpose of presenting some theme, like there was revolutionary france-land, post-revolutionary america-country, vikinghalla, evil devil worshipper empire and so on and so forth. And I particularly didn't care for the deities, I thought most of them were bland and uninspiring. But I still stuck with it, why? Because of what the guys at Paizo did with the world. The deities became so much more interesting when they got their articles out, and the nations have proven that they really have soul as they've been detailed in the various books published. More than that, the Pathfinder Adventure Paths have really sold me on the setting. Every time it touches some theme I didn't find very interesting I end up getting blown away. I wasn't that interested in Kingmaker, but I thought it was awesome after reading it. Skull and Shackles sounded boring, pirates isn't my deal, but again I was blown away.
Is there a "best" world out there? I don't think so. I don't stick with Golarion because it is so fantastically unique and exciting. I stick with it because it is so well developed, I stick with it because of the rpg chops of the guys behind it. I mean, how can you not love the world that led to the development of "The Hook Mountain Massacre", "Seven Days to the Grave", "Sound of a Thousand Screams" and "Rasputin Must Die!"?
I loved Golarion in the beginning. I thought it was like Forgotten Realms but better.
But as time went on, I saw flaw after another making me like the setting less and less as time went by.
Looking at it now, the only things I like are the more cunning references to real life mythology, and the Golarion pantheon.
For me, this is my world. I was late coming to RPGs, but I got here about the time 3rd rolled around. By that time all the other settings had been out, been played in. Mysteries solved. Heroes died, Villains conquered. But Golarion, I got in on the ground floor.
Somehwo that is a strangely complelling argument. ^^
Not exactly for Golarion in particular, but certainly a cautious warning to setting writers everywhere. "Don't mess up your own world by giving everything away that gets people interested in it."
Probably the same reason why people still praise the Forgotten Realms Gray Box to no end.
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I like how the setting is expanding being the standard European setting, encompassing Northern African, Middle Eastern, and Asian folklore. I really look forward to the expansions of Casmaron and Arcadia. I enjoy that most of the nations are somewhat parallel to real-world cultures to add a sense of familiarity and to celebrate that folklore, while remaining unique enough to provide a new and cool experience.
Mostly for Odraude's reasons, but I also appreciate that the setting tries to provide a little bit of something for everyone. It allows pretty much any style of campaign or character to be run. And with the different continents as well as Distant Worlds, there is room for everything
I also like that for the most part Golarion has managed to be true to it's pulp origins. I like seeing nods to Barsoom, Lovecraft, etc in the fiction.
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First of all, lumping Golarion, Grehawyk and Forgotten Realms together is kinda like saying Star Trek, Star Wars and Babylon 5 are the same because all have spaceships and aliens and lazors. In fact, there are many important differences between them, but it takes something more than just a cursory look to discover them.
Now, as for Golarion...
1. It's new and fresh, and you don't have to dig through 30 years of publishing history. Or be afraid that, while describing Zanzarlandia, one of your players accuses you of canon violation because the 1983 Limited Edition Marvel Comics tie-in described Zanzarlandia totally different.
2. It's modular. Don't like Numeria? Take it out and the setting doesn't implode.
3. Parallels to real world and fantasy tropes. It's so much easier to say "Ustalav is basically Ravenloft" than "Zanzarlandia is a bit Thay, a bit Grand Duchy of Karameikos with a dash of Karrnath, you guys are totally getting the picture oh wait no you don't".
4. Succesful re-imagining of several things that got stale in D&D settings (Gnomes, Daemons, Empyreals)
5. Crashed spaceship with lazors.
6. Less Tolkien, more Lieber, Martin, Mieville, Moorcock and Howard.
7. A kitsune ninja, an egyptian oracle, a gunslinger and a paladin walk into a bar in Absalom and it all makes sense.
8. Fully fleshed out solar system.
9. Great Wheel cosmology that's so deliciously Planescapeish.
10. Varisia - best place to introduce new players to the setting, ever.
Well, straight off the bat, I'll say I don't love Golarion like I do/did Krynn, the Realms etc. There is a "but" coming, however...
I got into RPGs by reading the first Dragonlance book, Dragons of Autumn Twilight, in '91, when I was 10 or 11. The very last page of the book had an ad for AD&D, where you could play a game in which you were Tanis, Raistlin, etc. This blew my mind.
Living in Australia as I was (am), RPGs weren't terribly well supported, and the only product I could find after months of searching was the ol' Red Box. Alas, I quickly realised I wouldn't be playing Tanis et al, but my friends were going to create other heroes that I was going to challenge/kill/reward.
Around the turn of the millennium, I'd read tons of DL and FR books, and had run games in both. But it became so hard. Canon was huge, and I felt like there was little space for me to create stories with my group that could compete with the epicness of the tales I'd originally fallen in love with without completely altering the realities of the worlds I'd likewise fallen in love with (this extended to ICE's MERP as well). What a paradox! I loved these universes so much that I couldn't bring myself to run/play in them because by creating legendary stories I might mess them up!
Then, eventually, WotC wrecked the settings for me anyway.
So, back to Golarion...
As Broken mentioned, Golarion feels like my world. It doesn't thrill me in the narrative sense that DL and FR did, but that means I can do whatever I want with it. Destroy the Acadamae? Can do. Overthrow House Thrune? No probs - I've largely created my own version of House Thrune, so I can do what I like.
And in a weird way, I've deliberately avoided Pathfinder Tales, as I don't want to know too much - I don't want to fall in love with Golarion as a narrative setting, because I love it as a gaming platform, and the former has always interfered with the latter for me.
TL;DR: I can do whatever I want in Golarion without destroying an object of my fanboy affection. That's why I dig it.
First of all, lumping Golarion, Grehawyk and Forgotten Realms together is kinda like saying Star Trek, Star Wars and Babylon 5 are the same because all have spaceships and aliens and lazors. In fact, there are many important differences between them, but it takes something more than just a cursory look to discover them.
Now, as for Golarion...
1. It's new and fresh, and you don't have to dig through 30 years of publishing history. Or be afraid that, while describing Zanzarlandia, one of your players accuses you of canon violation because the 1983 Limited Edition Marvel Comics tie-in described Zanzarlandia totally different.
2. It's modular. Don't like Numeria? Take it out and the setting doesn't implode.
3. Parallels to real world and fantasy tropes. It's so much easier to say "Ustalav is basically Ravenloft" than "Zanzarlandia is a bit Thay, a bit Grand Duchy of Karameikos with a dash of Karrnath, you guys are totally getting the picture oh wait no you don't".
4. Succesful re-imagining of several things that got stale in D&D settings (Gnomes, Daemons, Empyreals)
5. Crashed spaceship with lazors.
6. Less Tolkien, more Lieber, Martin, Mieville, Moorcock and Howard.
7. A kitsune ninja, an egyptian oracle, a gunslinger and a paladin walk into a bar in Absalom and it all makes sense.
8. Fully fleshed out solar system.
9. Great Wheel cosmology that's so deliciously Planescapeish.
10. Varisia - best place to introduce new players to the setting, ever.
#6 really hits it on the nail for me. I love Moorcock (heh), Howard, and Lieber, moreso than I do Tolkien's work. Nothing against Lord of the Rings (I do love it), but I prefer Elric and Fafhrd + The Grey Mouser and Nyarlathotep and Conan. I am a bit ashamed to say that I've never read anything by China Meville, but if his work on the River Kingdoms has an inkling of what to expect, I look forward to it.
I know some people do not like the modulator aspect of the setting, but I think it's a good strength. I personally prefer firearms and a higher magic in the setting, so I love Garund quite a bit. Much of my setting is based on a less pirate-y, more colonial/native Shackles with some Alkenstar influences. And I like that.
As a note, I'm not ragging on Realms or Greyhawk, as I think they are good settings. I'm just happy to see more gonzo things in Golarion, like Distant Worlds, Numeria, and Rasputin Must Die. I'm happy to see that Paizo isn't afraid to try something that's really different.
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I think the big draw for me is how broad the inspirations for the setting pull. Rather than the Western European Medieval feel that most generic settings fall back on, Golarion draws from a much broader stretch of cultures, time periods and literary themes, while managing not to become niche in the way settings like Dark Sun and Ebberon really only work well for Dune-esqe desert-punk, and urban fantasy campaigns, respectively. The vastness of the different cultural parallels just give the world a much larger and much grander feel than most settings.
Interesting replies.
The things that people list as aspects they like about the setting pretty much matches the list of things I personally don't like. So it seems to really come down to a matter of personal taste, rather than different perceptions of how the aspects are presented.
Not what I expected, but makes a lot of sense.
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#6 really hits it on the nail for me. I love Moorcock (heh), Howard, and Lieber, moreso than I do Tolkien's work. Nothing against Lord of the Rings (I do love it), but I prefer Elric and Fafhrd + The Grey Mouser and Nyarlathotep and Conan. I am a bit ashamed to say that I've never read anything by China Meville, but if his work on the River Kingdoms has an inkling of what to expect, I look forward to it.
This. Any setting that allows Conan, Elric, and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser to form an adventuring party wins my heart pretty thoroughly.
Add to that the fact that the setting is logically sound and internally consistent right down to how many people of what level live in most cities (another thing that brings me joy), and that it has plenty of room for almost everything you could want or imagine in it, and what's not to love?
@Deadmanwalking:
I disagree with the internal consistency claim, but this is a thread about why people like Golarion, not why they dislike it.
3. Parallels to real world and fantasy tropes. It's so much easier to say "Ustalav is basically Ravenloft" than "Zanzarlandia is a bit Thay, a bit Grand Duchy of Karameikos with a dash of Karrnath, you guys are totally getting the picture oh wait no you don't".
This. When people quickly recognize what a part of the setting is about, instead of having to wade through a long explanation, they're more likely to get interested. One way to achieve that quick recognition is with imitation.
So it seems to really come down to a matter of personal taste, rather than different perceptions of how the aspects are presented.
This too. A thousand times this.
First of all, lumping Golarion, Grehawyk and Forgotten Realms together is kinda like saying Star Trek, Star Wars and Babylon 5 are the same because all have spaceships and aliens and lazors.
But to someone who doesn't care for stories about spaceships, aliens, and lasers, those three series' ARE the same, and the differences may seem trivial. And the same goes for fantasy campaign settings.
The one part of the setting I actually like is everything north of Varisia and the Brevoy region. There's enough there to make a whole setting and it has themes that I like. Wouldn't run a game there because there are other alternatives that do these themes better in my oppinion, but if I would be playing with a GM who insists on playing in Golarion but lets us chose where to play, I would easily chose those. And it's still interesting stuff to read, to get ideas to use in other settings. (Oh boy, how people got upset when I mentioned adapting Reign of Winter to other settings.)
It's something I find rather odd though, that many settings want to present something for everyone. Dark Sun is pretty much the only one I can think of that keeps it to one region sticking to a basic theme. (Planescape and Ravenloft also have one clearly defined theme, but a huge variety in different environments and cultures.)
In the Forgotten Realms, the North is just one region of maybe 50-something, but from my personal experience with players in Germany, lots of people regard it as almost synonymous with the whole world. You could easily call it a complete setting that has an amount of content and information that surpasses that of many other settings all by itself. The idea that most settings have to be complete worlds and not just a continent, or even just one part of a continent, seems a bit strange to me.
3. Parallels to real world and fantasy tropes. It's so much easier to say "Ustalav is basically Ravenloft" than "Zanzarlandia is a bit Thay, a bit Grand Duchy of Karameikos with a dash of Karrnath, you guys are totally getting the picture oh wait no you don't".This. When people quickly recognize what a part of the setting is about, instead of having to wade through a long explanation, they're more likely to get interested. One way to achieve that quick recognition is with imitation.
But in that case, why not go with the original that puts all its attention and effort towards this one region, instead of playing in another setting that does something similar kind of as an afterthought?
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@Deadmanwalking:
I disagree with the internal consistency claim, but this is a thread about why people like Golarion, not why they dislike it.
I'm aware that many people disagree...but I certainly find it consistent...and I'm usually a stickler for that kind of thing.
Most claims of inconsistency seem to rely on some kind of 'thematic' inconsistency (which I don't feel is accurate, and is subjective anyway), rather than logical ones (which are what I tend to care about).
@Deadmanwalking:
I disagree with the internal consistency claim, but this is a thread about why people like Golarion, not why they dislike it.
I'm aware that many people disagree...but I certainly find it consistent...and I'm usually a stickler for that kind of thing.
Most claims of inconsistency seem to rely on some kind of 'thematic' inconsistency (which I don't feel is accurate, and is subjective anyway), rather than logical ones (which are what I tend to care about).
Actually, what I linked probably related to logical consistency, which Golarion sometimes lacks. Why is there no mention of the higher numbers of half-orcs in areas bordering Belkzen and its neighbours? Why are no separate "cultures" forming into those niches? At least Brevoy acknowledges the mixing of Kellid and Taldan tradition to it, but Cheliax and some other nations still lack logical consistency. As for Captain Marsh, Golarion isn't the first nor the last to have multiple threats to the world. Forgotten Realms and Eberron had the same thing (especially the latter), while Dark Sun didn't.
...and yeah, let's just stick to what we like, alright? It's why we are on this thread.
But in that case, why not go with the original that puts all its attention and effort towards this one region, instead of playing in another setting that does something similar kind of as an afterthought?
Because it's been adapted. For instance, you might not want to play in revolutionary France, because France doesn't have wizards, elves, or bags of holding, but Galt can have those things. Narnia wasn't written as a game setting, so to set a game there, you would have to do some work to flesh it out, but Paizo fleshed out Irrisen well enough that it can be used "as is".
The biggest thing for me is I'm big on having my own interpretation of the world and not feel like I'm doing something wrong.
So my ideal Golarion, is also part of my 'ideal' world.
One where you can go to a city, go to a random bar, or marketplace and find at least one member of the 40+ races available at lvl 1.
It saddens me to say this, but that ideal image of yours really does not apply in Golarion due to the extremely humanocentric nature of the world itself.
You actually would be violating canon if the bar wasn't at least 70% humans, if you look at the population numbers of the nations as shown by the Inner Sea World Guide.
The pro-human bias in Golarion is what drove me to making my own setting less humanocentric. I do not regret pouring time, sweat, blood and tears into the work I started 3 years ago.
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Actually, what I linked probably related to logical consistency, which Golarion sometimes lacks. Why is there no mention of the higher numbers of half-orcs in areas bordering Belkzen and its neighbours? Why are no separate "cultures" forming into those niches?
Because it's not mentioned, it doesn't exist? Also, these issues are in fact discussed (if briefly) in books talking about, say, Varisia or Ustalav. What made you think they weren't?
At least Brevoy acknowledges the mixing of Kellid and Taldan tradition to it, but Cheliax and some other nations still lack logical consistency.
I, generally speaking, disagree.
As for Captain Marsh, Golarion isn't the first nor the last to have multiple threats to the world. Forgotten Realms and Eberron had the same thing, while Dark Sun didn't.
True.
...and yeah, let's just stick to what we like, alright?
Alright.
It saddens me to say this, but that ideal image really does not apply in Golarion due to the extremely humanocentric nature of the world itself.
You would be violating canon if the bar wasn't at least 70% humans, if you look at the population numbers of the nations as shown by the Inner Sea World Guide.
Yeah to a point, it's not as human centric as other settings. Plus Inner Sea I think when it came out there was still just the core races out at that time.
Plus you are ENCOURAGED to make the world your own.
So my Golarion is no where near 'as' human centric.
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Are you kidding me? Eberron and Forgotten Realms are not as humanocentric as Golarion.
Greyhawk might be, but that's one out of three. I do not recall Dark Sun being very humanocentric either.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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One thing I like about it is that it triggers my imagination.
Irrisen is a good example. It is a wondefully frakked up nation, which can produce heroes that are just wrong. I'm having so much fun with that contrast in PFS. It allows me to play a character who is a haughty, aloof, almost alien, and wrong, but one of the 'good guys'.*
Likewise, the writing of the 'god articles' and recently Chronicles of the Righteous get the brain box humming.
Yes, a lot of the sections are modular. I too see this as a strength. Numeria is a good example. Don't like it? IT will never show up. But if you do, you can go from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks to Stargate:Golarion with the info, and run wild.
I like gnomes. I'll say it again. I LIKE GNOMES! Golarion did for gnomes to me what Eberron did for half-orcs and halfings.
*
Matthew, I have a Chelish Wizard character who behaves like your example Irriseni person. Irrisen did not invent sociopathic narcissists. Some of the examples people name here just seem silly when other campaign settings have the same things but have them written even better. And yeah, I'm just going to end up drowning in comments now that I'm objecting to the reasons why others like them. I'll just start heeding my own advice and force myself back on-topic. What I do like is the addition of the Empyreal Lords, as well as multiple creation myths for the world itself.
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I like that it's huge, it's modular, and it's easy to ignore the parts that aren't relevant to your plot. Any one of the countries in Golarion is enough to run an entire campaign. There's no need to hop around the world unless you want to.
My PCs are just about to hit level 12, and we haven't yet left Varisia. And there are no plans to do so. They've been to Sandpoint, Magnimar, the Hook Mountain region, and Kaer Maga. They are all sufficeintly different, and sufficiently far apart, that they really feel like they are well-traveled, even though they have never left Varisia. (And they've never been to Korvosa, Riddleport, Janderhoff, Celwynvian, Hollow Moutain, the Mobhad Leigh....)
The idea is to throw tons and tons of plot hooks as GMs so that they can pick and choose where to send PCs and what to write. Use the stuff you like, ignore the rest.
It's a kitchen sink approach so that there's an area you can run just about any type of fantasy RPG you want.
You want to play "Game of Thrones?" Set your campaign in Brevoy.
You want play under an oppressive evil empire? Set the campaign in Cheliax.
You want to play "Thundarr the Barbarian?" Numeria.
You want to play a gunslinger in a fantasy Old West? Mana Wastes.
You want to play pirates on the high seas? The Shackles.
You want to play Indiana Jones exploring lost temples in the jungle? Mwangi Expanse.
You want to run in a high fantasy urban setting? Absalom.
You want to run an Arabian Nights game? Katapesh or Jalemray or Qadira)
Vikings? Land of Linnorm Kings.
Ravenloft? Ustalav.
Stone Age? Realm of Mammoth Lords.
Narnia under the White Witch? Irrisen.
Where orcs are in charge? Belkzen.
A war-torn land? Nirmathas.
Communist dictatorship? Molthune.
French Revolution? Galt.
Post-colonial America? Andorran.
Ancient Egypt? Osirion
Baseline standard fantasy? Varisia.
You don't want to run any of the above? Don't go there!
I like the fact that get to watch the setting "grow up" from the beginning. We had Varisia, which expanded to the Inner Sea. Over time, we have Tian Xia, the whole of Golarion, and even the entire solar system! Not only that, but the Inner Sea itself has been filling out over time with the various setting books.
Also, I feel that we as players and consumers have just a bit of influence in how the setting expands and grows. Clamor and requests for certain subjects means that Paizo listens to us and provides us with the content we want. This isn't always the case, but seeing our requests be filled occasionally is really cool.
I like that there's lots of scope for little deal stories. I don't like big picture stuff in my rpg settings - most of paizos sourcebooks give me dozens of plot hooks which won't disrupt the setting drastically if they're resolved.
Numeria and Distant Worlds.
I love the pantheon and I love Ustalav.
I come from primarily a Forgotten Realms background and an intense like of Ravenloft. For me the Golarion pantheon is a lot like the Forgotten Realms Pantheon but one-better. Lathander became a hot angel goddess named Sarenrae. Sune became Shelyn, more or less, and Shelyn has a cooler history since Zon-Kuthon, who is practically Hellraiser, is her brother and she still loves him and tries to find ways to show him kindness. Asmodeus is still Asmodeus, but he's a god, and even he had to team-up with Sarenrae to deal with the Rough Beast Rovagug. Then there's a god who ascended to godhood while on a drunken bender! And let's not forget Calistria. I actually like Sharess as a pleasure goddess better than Calistria, but I like Calistria better as the primary deity of elves than Corellon Larenthian. I mean let's face it, Calistria is far more like every elf I've ever seen played, in alignment and disposition, than Corellon was.
I've never been a big supporter of Greyhawk and I have literally zero interest in Dragonlance at all. Dragonlance is a bit too far from what I consider a "core assumption" for my tastes, and Greyhawk just always struck me as bland.
I like Golarion though, and it feeled that niche that was emptied when Wizards of the Coast decided to nuke Forgotten Realms. I played in Cormyr in Forgotten Realms for years but never was a huge fan of Cormyr. (I like Calimshan, Tethyr, and Amn.) I like most of the countries I read about in Golarion more than most of Faerun.
And then I've always liked Ravenloft, but I've never played there. The only things I didn't like about Ravenloft was its pantheon, or basic lack of a real one, and how each Ravenloft domain had its own magic rules, oh, and Powers checks. I mean there are deities, but none of them really communicate with worshipers, and they're all kind of insignificant anyway. I mean in Ravenloft clerics can worship concepts instead of deities, or bring deities with them from any setting, and I've never liked that. In both Forgotten Realms and Golarion, clerics have deities, and the deities have depth to them.
So Ustalav is sort of like Ravenloft, except with various counties instead of domains, but it's integrated right into the main world and shares the awesome core pantheon.
(Ravenloft, being a pocket plane, can of course still be ran from Golarion if I ever get the urge. But why would I, when Golarion has things like the Black Forest pocket plane built into the setting already?)
I also really love the Revisited product line, which gives ecology and flavor for monsters in the Golarion setting. (Kobolds of multiple draconic colors? Pyromaniac goblins with a fear of horses? A lifecycle for mimics? Trolls that read the future in their entrails?) While I could use any of that in my own setting of my own creation, I love that the Golarion setting has it all already.
FR is definitely humanocentric. The fact there are other races around doesn't change the fact that 95% of all kingdoms and cities are dominated by humans, and the other races are just minor players.
Greyhawk is the same thing, except there's actually an evil demon demi-god living there and stirring things up. All the big, powerful nations are human, as is most of the population. Evil races are around, and because of Iuz actually got together enough to claim significant territory for themselves.
Eberron is human dominated. The Five Kingdoms are all dominated by humans, as are half the ones outside it. Sure, they gave the gnomes a kingdom. But the gnomes are not huge influences. The only reason why non-humans feel powerful is that the Dragonmark Houses are racially empowered, and so certain races are going to be in the spotlight regardless of their actual power in the setting.
Now, the humans are nowhere near the power level of other settings, and so the THREATS to the world are far more significant. Rakshasas and psionic quori manipulate kings like puppets. But it's still a world dominated by humans and what they do...even the realm ruled by the quori had as base population...more humans.
Dark Sun was also human dominated...you just didn't see it as much because all the powerful types were just so cool...playing characters with 24 starting stats was awesome! But, you know, all the dark lords were human wizard-psions for a reason, and they literally destroyed any racial threat to their power. All the cities? Human cities. Elves and dwarves didn't have cities, and halflings were cannibals living in the jungles.
Krynn was all about the fall of human realms and empires with the dragons coming back. But humans were in control of the dragons, not vice versa.
Heck, even Ravenloft was human dominated, if only because all the dark lords of the setting tended to once be human themselves!
The only setting I can think of that wasn't human dominated was Council of Wyrms, which was naturally dominated by dragons...humans were evil invaders trying to kill dragons.
Making humans minor players in a setting means no human kingdoms, cities, or empires, or at least very few of them. That hasn't been true in ANY of the major world settings.
Heck, even Planescape and Spelljammer tended to be dominated by humans, because we were the race that set up all the places to trade, and dominated the worlds trade was between.
==Aelryinth
It looks to me like the elves had a bigger role in FR and Eberron than they do in Golarion.
Then again, maybe I just got ticked off at Golarion becaused it decided to brag about how awesome humanity is.
You mean how awesome humanity was ;)
Really, I liked the whole Aroden fall because it shows the a fall because of hubris for humanity, as well as something as unique as a prophecy not only failing, but almost spelling the end for humanity. When Aroden fell, dreams were shattered, nations crumbled, and the Inner Sea changed drastically, both geographically and politically.
Besides, I personally get tired of humans always being the fecund underdogs in the shadows of elves, dwarves, and dragons. About time humans were awesome :)
Apparently they have never been underdogs due to reasons pointed out by Aelryinth. But hey, now I can actually say that I do like Golarion for kicking humans down from the high throne. Too bad they've still spread around like crazy on the planet, but maybe I'll just do a campaign set in Golarion, fast forwarding like a 100 years later with most of the lands on the Inner Sea region being taken by elves, dwarves, gnomes and orcs. Meanwhile in Tian Xia, the elves of that region and the nagaji, hobgoblins and kitsune take over some lands as well.
Well what I mean by underdogs is, in most settings, humans are this weaker race that isn't as magically connected as elves, or as industrious as dwarves. But what they make up for that is that they are adaptable and breed like rabbits. The human kingdoms, while more prevalent than the elven or dwarven kingdoms, tend to still defer to the older races. Which is fine, I guess, but I'm glad that Golarion (and to some extent, Eberron) actually made humans more than just a group of fecund weaklings that need to huddle together to stay safe from everything. I love the idea of Azlanti being like High Men, and I also love the failure of prophecy and fall of man of Golarion. Makes things much more interesting!
Personally, though, I run with just about all racial options available, except drow nobles and that deep gnome. But I also don't really like banning options *shrug*.
With so many options around, I also hate banning them unless I have good reason to do so.
Drow Nobles and Svirfneblin are bannable due to how strong they are. Other races don't have that, though.
I'm also that weird kind of DM who is willing to hear out people who have homebrew races, so long as the stats are balanced.
Are there any nonhuman regions in Golarion? All I know is that there are some outcast elves and that the Ranger in the CRB and the adventure paths is a dwarf.
The elven nation of Kyonin, the dwarven nation known as the Five King Mountains, and an orc nation called Belkzen.
Only three non-human regions in the Inner Sea area. There are a few non-human nations in Tian Xia, but I forgot their names.
I see... Those regions that never got a book or any adventures set in them? Is that correct?
Second Darkness partially takes place in Kyonin, and I think there is only a module for the Five King Mountains.
There so far hasn't been any adventures that take place in Belkzen from what I know. Would be interesting to see one.
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Many of the gamers I meet seem to evaluate settings by how well they would work in fiction.
Game worlds have vastly different needs from narrative fiction settings. In fact, what makes Golarion a cliché, corny, kitchen-sink setting is exactly what makes it a bad world for serious fiction (IMO) and a great world for gaming. Any world that works for fiction must necessarily limit the options necessary for a truly flexible gaming world, e.g. cowboy gunslingers, medieval sorcerers, and techno-barbarians in a dungeon crawl together.
It is that major thematic decision — to be a game world first — that sets Golarion apart.
So far, anyway, it hasn't been about what makes for good novels, or masturbatory high-concept fiction in setting design... rather it is rife with clichés that enable popular character types to integrate easily in the campaign.
The major plot arcs are not derived from some already-run homebrew, nor from serial fiction. Instead, they're lying in wait, untriggered, ready for the PCs to be the heroes of those stories.
You may assume none of the modules or APs advance the timeline. The major powerful NPCs are mostly evil, and those that aren't really don't compete with the PCs in their role. The ridiculous geography allows for completely disparate, incongruous character types in the same party — something previously only achieved by an inter-dimensional conceit like Rifts or Planescape.
And the crowning achievement: content. So much content. You couldn't hope to use it all. Maps upon maps, modules upon modules.
In closing, what I like about Golarion as a game setting is actually what I hate about Golarion as a fiction setting!
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I also get tired of seeing humans being the dominant race. If their dominance is due to their shorter lifespan and faster breeding, then the orcs should be more populous than even humans. But I guess since orcs are almost entirely evil, that helps keep their numbers and spread down.
That was one thing I enjoyed about Eberron. Not all orcs were evil, not all gnolls were demon-spawn demon worshiping slavers who kill what they don't enslave. Not all gold dragons were pure goodness and not all red dragons were pure evil.
I try to keep my characters away from being humans. My aasimar looks more like a humanoid fox (due to vulpinal ancestry) instead of human. It's why I dislike the CRB races so much. Everything is a variation of human. Elf: human with pointy ears and rather tall and skinny. Half-Elf: human with slightly less pointy ears. Dwarf: short human. Gnome: shorter human. Halfling: shorter human with pointy ears. Half-orc: green human with teeth problems.
I do enjoy Golarion, though I wish it wasn't so damn humanocentric, like every single fantasy setting ever (pretty much).
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I could echo a load of statements above but can add one really bizarre unexplainable thing. I’ve played Greyhawk for 2 years, Eberron for 2 years, Forgotten Realms for over20 and my home brew for a bunch in between.
I’ve been playing in Golarion since I first received Adventure Path #1 and the strangest thing happened: I remember stuff so easily. I remember names, locations and NPCs. I can rattle out stuff off the top of my head without constantly consulting sourcebooks or saying “you know, that guy…who builds the best ships” or “that place, past the desert…with the elves, you know”.
I’m no walking Golarion encyclopedia and I’m not getting any younger but for some reason I feel at home here and remembering names easily is just one small part of the magic.