What I meant, off course, is that if I were organizing this (and thus not competing in it, naturally...) I'd set up the arena to try to prevent first round kills. Because it would be pretty boring otherwise.
And you might be right that ranged characters are the easiest to nullify. But if you get it right and aren't nullified (which could be possible with the right build and a bit of luck with the arena, I think), they're also least dependent on lucky rolls, as they could repeat their strategy round after round until successful, rather than slogging it out hoping they get the die roll they need before the other guy does. And trying to outmaneuver the other guy seems like more fun than trying to outroll the other guy to me, so I'd opt for an archer. :-)
edit: And it's not as if my halfling archer would be dead at once if you double move next to him hoping for an AoO. Dog attack, dog 5 foot step, rapid shot. If all those hit, anything is dead. More likely, the opponent is half dead and has one shot at hitting my AC 19.
SteelDraco wrote: A witch with the Slumber hex, Ability Focus, a maxed-out Int, and a scythe would be my first guess, especially if it's one-on-one fights in a fixed arena. "Sorry Mr. Fighter, looks like you failed that DC 17 Will save at 1st level. Naptime for you. *schlork*" Will save?
I'm an elf.
Take 20 points of damage from my eartbreaker.
Without Meta gaming how would you deal with obscuring mist?
Which is why color gray is vastly superior to a sleep affect.
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Which is why color gray is vastly superior to a sleep affect. You have a 30' move and a 15' cone.
I have a 60' charge. Do the math.
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Without Meta gaming how would you deal with obscuring mist? burning hands works pretty well.
The obscurING MIST question was directed to the archer
WHO Said the caster is not mounted?
Which is why I said it comes down to one. Initiative and two. The first dice roll.
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: The obscurING MIST question was directed to the archer
WHO Said the caster is not mounted?
Who said the fighter was not mounted.
Double move on the charge benefits him more than a caster.
It only comes to the die roll at level 1 if the characters can engage on round 1.
Past that, maneuvering to receive the first attract determines the winner.
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Without Meta gaming how would you deal with obscuring mist? Wait for it to end? Or do you call that metagaming? I would say it's pretty common knowledge that fog disperses after a while, and for someone in the Pathfinder world, it's definitely common knowledge that most spells end after a minute or two. (although I guess that in a combat situation a level 1 character with dumped int is unlikely to make ANY knowledge check, even to remember his own name, but that's a matter for another discussion)
The real question is: what's the caster doing to me while he's hiding in his obscuring mist? If that's sending his animal companion at me, well, I would fancy a mounted archer against any of the level 1 animal companions any day of the week.
edit: By the way, I'm not claiming to have made the perfect character for this kind of thing at all. But I definitely don't think it's as hopeless as you're trying to make it out to be.
Artanthos wrote: Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: The obscurING MIST question was directed to the archer
WHO Said the caster is not mounted?
Who said the fighter was not mounted.
Double move on the charge benefits him more than a caster.
It only comes to the die roll at level 1 if the characters can engage on round 1.
Past that, maneuvering to receive the first attract determines the winner. Which is what I already have said.
soupturtle wrote: Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Without Meta gaming how would you deal with obscuring mist? Wait for it to end? Or do you call that metagaming? I would say it's pretty common knowledge that fog disperses after a while, and for someone in the Pathfinder world, it's definitely common knowledge that most spells end after a minute or two. (although I guess that in a combat situation a level 1 character with dumped int is unlikely to make ANY knowledge check, even to remember his own name, but that's a matter for another discussion)
The real question is: what's the caster doing to me while he's hiding in his obscuring mist? If that's sending his animal companion at me, well, I would fancy a mounted archer against any of the level 1 animal companions any day of the week.
edit: By the way, I'm not claiming to have made the perfect character for this kind of thing at all. But I definitely don't think it's as hopeless as you're trying to make it out to be. Well this particular caster is on his dire bat that thru speak with animals knows the location of the archer.
Which won't allow you to actually target him.
Artanthos wrote: Which won't allow you to actually target him. That is why there are spells that don't require targets.
Also it would allow the caster to at least get a 50/50 chance of hitting the target due to the knowledge of which square to attack into.
That's nine rounds of 50/50 chance of hitting target without using additional spells.
Excellent! So I deduce that since he can cast speak with animals as well as obscuring mist he's a druid, and since he's riding a dire bat, he's a small race, and thus probably doesn't have a wisdom of more than 18. That gives him 2 first level spells per day, both of which he's just spent to hide in a cloud and let his bat tell him where I am. Presumably so he can shoot arrows/bolts at me and pray he overcomes the 50% miss chance from not being able to see me as well as my 19 AC. Truely terrifying indeed.
I'll just go stand behind this tree here and wait for the fog to blow over.
Or he could be a sorcerer with a scroll of speak with animals who got lucky on his UMD check to cast speak with animals, I guess. But once you allow that, what's to stop you from spending your money on some killer scroll in the first place? Spiked pit seems nice...
Until the OP says otherwise, I would assume that these contests are divided up melee/melee and caster/caster. (That's usually how it's done at organized play levels.)
it was some of that. some of the random roll a d4 pick a character.
Artanthos wrote: Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Which is why color gray is vastly superior to a sleep affect. You have a 30' move and a 15' cone.
I have a 60' charge. Do the math. I can ready colorspray.
Human Foresight diviner wizard
Str: 7
Dex: 18
Con: 11
Int: 20
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
Trait: Reactionary
Feats: Improved Init, Spell Focus (Illusion).
Scorpian Familiar
Saves: Fort 0, Ref 4, Will 3
Hp 7, AC 14, Init +13
He goes first. Color Spray (DC 17 will save). This is a glass cannon build, but at first level it's as close as you get to an instant win (you're going to win initiative 90% +, and even against high saves they'll drop over 50% of the time for four rounds. Then you can easily kill them with a light crossbow, rays, or simply walk out of the arena and sit in the crowd and throw ghost sounds and let the confused sap surrender because he has no idea what hit him and now thinks you're some kind of god).
If you're fighting a grapple monk with that wizard, and the monk has a high wis and takes iron will and improved at first level, your color spray is probably going to fail and you're done.
Its not hard to find a counter for almost any build.
The less counters there are, the better the build.
soupturtle wrote: Excellent! So I deduce that since he can cast speak with animals as well as obscuring mist he's a druid, and since he's riding a dire bat, he's a small race, and thus probably doesn't have a wisdom of more than 18. That gives him 2 first level spells per day, both of which he's just spent to hide in a cloud and let his bat tell him where I am. Presumably so he can shoot arrows/bolts at me and pray he overcomes the 50% miss chance from not being able to see me as well as my 19 AC. Truely terrifying indeed.
I'll just go stand behind this tree here and wait for the fog to blow over.
Or he could be a sorcerer with a scroll of speak with animals who got lucky on his UMD check to cast speak with animals, I guess. But once you allow that, what's to stop you from spending your money on some killer scroll in the first place? Spiked pit seems nice...
Actually he is a gnome with sla speak with animal. He has 6 1 St level spells.
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Actually he is a gnome with sla speak with animal. He has 6 1 St level spells. Okay, I'll bite: how does a 1st level character have 6 1st level spells? The gnome spell-like abilities are all cantrips. I've never seen anyone win a fight with prestidigitation.
1st level Unbreakable human fighter with Tribal Scars, Toughness, and 20 con can be pretty amusing in a slap fight. Takes 45 damage to put him down at level 1.
The monk set to counter the wizard has a +9 will save, theoretically. He succeeds that save 60% of the time, and throws twice to do so. He also loses out on a decent reflex save (+5 probably, still decent) and a decent fort save (probably a 3 or maybe a 4). Stumble gap or Ear Piercing Scream should do the trick. And if you think I'm not using Grease on myself going into that fight you're nuts. The monk goes down 3 out of four times, like everyone else.
Halfling Barbarian wrote: The monk goes down 3 out of four times, like everyone else. Except for, I dunno, anyone with a bow/crossbow who can stay out of close range? It depends a bit on the arena whether or not that is possible, obviously, but that's always the case.
At first, I thought a level 1 pvp tournament sounded rather silly. But with all the people in here claiming to have invincible builds that are all different, it is starting to sound like quite a lot of fun, actually.
Oh, it's far from invincible, it just ups the odds as long as you know the other build with the instant customization and all, and the ability to have a nice array of scrolls ready to go. And if you start people outside of at least charge range you've gimped the whole thing to favor archers. Which would probably be my second choice after the wizard (halfling for the save bonus, to hit and ac bonus, the dex bonus, and I wouldn't mind the small damage hit, run point blank and rapid reload) with cavalier and barbarian in third (realiable death with pointy objects).
A master summoner should probably be banned, since there is probably a 1st level version that rofl-stomps everyone...
I don't know about rofl-stomping. But a master summoner is indeed a pretty good deal at level one because you get a regular level 1 eidolon. A level 1 eidolon isn't that scary though, as it's attacks are all pretty weak. And the things you can summon at level 1 aren't really any more powerful than 25 gp guard dogs. Still, you end up with a huge action advantage, so it's pretty strong all in all.
Wasum wrote: Artanthos wrote: Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Which is why color gray is vastly superior to a sleep affect. You have a 30' move and a 15' cone.
I have a 60' charge. Do the math. I can ready colorspray. I can bring a crossbow as a backup weapon.
Thanis Kartaleon wrote: Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Actually he is a gnome with sla speak with animal. He has 6 1 St level spells. Okay, I'll bite: how does a 1st level character have 6 1st level spells? The gnome spell-like abilities are all cantrips. I've never seen anyone win a fight with prestidigitation. Actually it's only 5. Miss type.
I don't think anyone is posting a unbeatable build. I just think it's more like that 1 character is always weak to another type of character that is all.
LazarX wrote: Whale_Cancer wrote: Simon Legrande wrote: So at first level all you've really done is determined who had more luck rolling dice. What did this PvP session hope to accomplish? Theorycrafting?
I like the fact that this sort of thing shows the glaring weakness of level 1 play (I'm a level 3 - 12 partisan myself). It's not a legitimate analysis, because the game was never intended, designed, nor balanced, for PVP. (World of Warcraft is a very good example of the complexity of the issues involved in trying to balance classes for PVP and PVE.) It was designed as an exercise in cooperative play. There is something called Conflict I think, I don't recall whether it's a D20 or Pathfinder based product but it incorporates a book of rules changes for those who are into that sort of thing. over on the pfsrd they keep advertising that 'conflict pvp' book theyre producing--from what ive heard it does at least acceptably in hacking a sort of order from all the chaos in PF builds
Rogue with Smoke Bombs get total concealment blocks most forms of vision and with the Stealth errata can get Sneak Attack in with reasonable ease at lower levels. Giving them a great advantage in most fights. Color Spray will fly blind... The bane of all is Magic Missile. it ranges every single ranged weapon and if rolled decent will take weaken most classes before they get close enough and when they do Shocking Grasp to death...
But I think I still favor the rogue.
Well. This isn't, obviously, as awesome a build as Charge+instakill and Save or Die.
But it is sort of awesome. I'm avoiding the Rich Parents trait because it's more fun, and it's obviously the best trait if you allow it.
PewPew McBlinks
Level 1 Diviner (Foresight)
Rice Runner, Reactionary (+2 init, +1 Acrobatics, Acrobatics Class Skill)
Roll With It
Stats: 5/22/14/12/13/5
Familiar: Suicide the Compsognathus
We're going to wear leather armor. And have put a point in acrobatics.
Our acrobatics check, at level 1, is 1+3(class)+6(dex)+1(trait) = +11.
Our initiative is 2+4(Familiar)+6 (dex). We have higher initiative than just about anybody.
Our plan is this: Cast Ray of Frost/acid splash at the opponent until they die or are humiliated enough to retreat from the battle. While this is not as terrifying as save or die/charge-smash, it is more hilarious.
PewPew will win initiative, cast shield on himself, and direct Suicide to BOLDLY stand in between us and the enemy, preventing us from being charged. PewPew will also cast Ray of Frost.
As soon as the enemy is within moving distance, we walk up to 5 feet from them, stick our tongues out, and shoot them with ray of frost.
You will note a few things about our questionable decision-making:
1.) We are really freaking hard to hit. Our AC at level 1 is 10+4(shield)+2(leather armor)+6(dex)+1(small) = 23.
2.) If you do hit us, we have gotten 2 d20 rolls (foresight gives an extra) on our acrobatics - I believe the average is a 14, which gives us, with our +11 acrobatics check, the ability to ignore any damage less than 20.
The result is that this character is damn near impossible to kill in 1v1 melee combat. He's also damned hard to hit for archers - it's very possible that he will kill them with Ray of Frost before they can kill him.
Like everybody, he's vulnerable to save or die casters. But he humiliates the crap out of everybody else.
-Cross
Soupturtle, I think your archer's attack numbers are off. Since he doesn't have the Mounted Archery feat, doesn't he get an attack penalty?
I do agree that the arena matters. I think elf paladin is probably the build with the least amount of counters open, as it is immune to sleep and has strong saves.
I think having a few dozen level 1 characters built that players just draw randomly from and fight against each other could be a fun way to play for a night or even to practice with new players various options in combat.
Ah, yes. If you double move (which you will most of the time) you take an extra penalty. You're right about that.
I'm thinking of a build that abuses traits and feats that increase your caster level for a particular spell, but I'm having trouble thinking of any such feats or traits. Anybody able to assist in jogging my memory?
Crosswind wrote: Well. This isn't, obviously, as awesome a build as Charge+instakill and Save or Die.
But it is sort of awesome. I'm avoiding the Rich Parents trait because it's more fun, and it's obviously the best trait if you allow it.
PewPew McBlinks
Level 1 Diviner (Foresight)
Rice Runner, Reactionary (+2 init, +1 Acrobatics, Acrobatics Class Skill)
Roll With It
Stats: 5/22/14/12/13/5
Familiar: Suicide the Compsognathus
We're going to wear leather armor. And have put a point in acrobatics.
Our acrobatics check, at level 1, is 1+3(class)+6(dex)+1(trait) = +11.
Our initiative is 2+4(Familiar)+6 (dex). We have higher initiative than just about anybody.
Our plan is this: Cast Ray of Frost/acid splash at the opponent until they die or are humiliated enough to retreat from the battle. While this is not as terrifying as save or die/charge-smash, it is more hilarious.
PewPew will win initiative, cast shield on himself, and direct Suicide to BOLDLY stand in between us and the enemy, preventing us from being charged. PewPew will also cast Ray of Frost.
As soon as the enemy is within moving distance, we walk up to 5 feet from them, stick our tongues out, and shoot them with ray of frost.
You will note a few things about our questionable decision-making:
1.) We are really freaking hard to hit. Our AC at level 1 is 10+4(shield)+2(leather armor)+6(dex)+1(small) = 23.
2.) If you do hit us, we have gotten 2 d20 rolls (foresight gives an extra) on our acrobatics - I believe the average is a 14, which gives us, with our +11 acrobatics check, the ability to ignore any damage less than 20.
The result is that this character is damn near impossible to kill in 1v1 melee combat. He's also damned hard to hit for archers - it's very possible that he will kill them with Ray of Frost before they can kill him.
Like everybody, he's vulnerable to save or die casters. But he humiliates the crap out of everybody else.
-Cross
Unfortunately your idea of your familiar blocking a charge will not work. Since it is a tiny creature, another creature can move through its space with no problem.
Also a character with reach can easily by pass a blocking small or medium creature on a charge.
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Unfortunately your idea of your familiar blocking a charge will not work. Since it is a tiny creature, another creature can move through its space with no problem. Just a correction, there has to be a size difference of 3 before you can move through other occupied squares. This means a large creature can move through a tiny creatures square. Tiny can still block medium creatures. Leaving the occupied square still provokes an AoO.
Additionally, RAW any creature occupying the square in front of you will stop a charge, as charge only says, "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."
RAI I agree that 3 sizes you should be able to charge though, but it is not RAW.
Lastly, a reach weapon gets around the creature being in the way anyway.
Your right tarantula, i forget about that because my charging characters always do so from a mount, where tiny creatures just don't do much to the large ones.
Now a small familiar can block a charging character from horseback if it is at least half the distance or more from the one they are protecting, directly between them and their attacker.
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Now a small familiar can block a charging character from horseback if it is at least half the distance or more from the one they are protecting, directly between them and their attacker. I don't get what you are saying here. As long as the small familiar is 10 feet away from the wizard, that will force the mounted character to be unable to reach the wizard (unless using a whip) and unable to charge. Additionally, any creature occupying a square within the charge path does block the line of charge.
Why do you say they have to be half the distance or more from the wizard?
I'd make a wizard and spend my money on a scroll of 6th level Lightning Bolt. 18 Dexterity and improved initiative to boot.
"I rolled a 13 for initiative. That's 21. I go first? Ok, take 21 damage, save for half. Enjoy."
Crosswind wrote: Well. This isn't, obviously, as awesome a build as Charge+instakill and Save or Die.
But it is sort of awesome. I'm avoiding the Rich Parents trait because it's more fun, and it's obviously the best trait if you allow it.
PewPew McBlinks
Level 1 Diviner (Foresight)
Rice Runner, Reactionary (+2 init, +1 Acrobatics, Acrobatics Class Skill)
Roll With It
Stats: 5/22/14/12/13/5
Familiar: Suicide the Compsognathus
We're going to wear leather armor. And have put a point in acrobatics.
Our acrobatics check, at level 1, is 1+3(class)+6(dex)+1(trait) = +11.
Our initiative is 2+4(Familiar)+6 (dex). We have higher initiative than just about anybody.
Our plan is this: Cast Ray of Frost/acid splash at the opponent until they die or are humiliated enough to retreat from the battle. While this is not as terrifying as save or die/charge-smash, it is more hilarious.
PewPew will win initiative, cast shield on himself, and direct Suicide to BOLDLY stand in between us and the enemy, preventing us from being charged. PewPew will also cast Ray of Frost.
As soon as the enemy is within moving distance, we walk up to 5 feet from them, stick our tongues out, and shoot them with ray of frost.
You will note a few things about our questionable decision-making:
1.) We are really freaking hard to hit. Our AC at level 1 is 10+4(shield)+2(leather armor)+6(dex)+1(small) = 23.
2.) If you do hit us, we have gotten 2 d20 rolls (foresight gives an extra) on our acrobatics - I believe the average is a 14, which gives us, with our +11 acrobatics check, the ability to ignore any damage less than 20.
The result is that this character is damn near impossible to kill in 1v1 melee combat. He's also damned hard to hit for archers - it's very possible that he will kill them with Ray of Frost before they can kill him.
Like everybody, he's vulnerable to save or die casters. But he humiliates the crap out of everybody else.
-Cross
You didn't say, at least from what I saw, but this is a goblin I assume. One of the goblins alternate racial traits gives +4 acrobatics, for +15.
Glutton wrote:
You didn't say, at least from what I...
!!!
Genius! I can now reliably negate twenty points of damage! =D
As for the charger, I think, given that I win initiative, that I can move Suicide the Compsognathus to wherever. 3 squares away from me, directly in between me and attacker, seems fine. Or two. Anything to stop a charge.
A min/maxxed cavalier would have:
Human, 20 strength, WF (+1 attack), Power Attack, Order of the sword (+1 attack), Lance, +2 attack from charging)
So, damage is +7 (str) + 3 (PA), and an AB of 1+5+1+2+1 = +10.
So he hits on a 13+ (60% miss chance), and, on that hit, does (d8+10)x2).
With a +15 acrobatics check (thanks Glutton), that damage is 100% negated 36% of the time.
So the odds of being hit are .4*.64 = ~25%.
If the cavalier can't charge, he has no way of beating PewPew's acrobatics, and loses, ignominiously, to an endless barrage of rays of frost. =( So he loses about 75% of the time.
Glorious Goblin Victory!
-Cross
Tarantula wrote: Titania, the Summer Queen wrote: Now a small familiar can block a charging character from horseback if it is at least half the distance or more from the one they are protecting, directly between them and their attacker. I don't get what you are saying here. As long as the small familiar is 10 feet away from the wizard, that will force the mounted character to be unable to reach the wizard (unless using a whip) and unable to charge. Additionally, any creature occupying a square within the charge path does block the line of charge.
Why do you say they have to be half the distance or more from the wizard? A mounted charging character with a reach weapon can attack at an angle to one side or the other, so if the familiar is immediately in front of its master then it can be easily be bypassed. However if the familiar is at least half the distance away, then the charger cannot go in a straight line at an angle and still be able to hit reach the target.
Crosswind wrote:
Glorious Goblin Victory!
The only flaw I see with using Roll With It is this part of the rules text:
Roll With It wrote: You are staggered for 1 round after you attempt to use this feat, whether or not you succeed. You're safe so long as there are no walls around for you to be pummeled into, as there's no way to move out of the way *and* do damage with with your Ray of Frost. If they hit you into the wall, you're in trouble, because you'll be prone *and* staggered.
EDIT: Or the hypothetical cavalier could just flank with their mount.
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