Is it even possible for a Cleric to not be some Deity-Worshipping Fanatic?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

As the question says. Basically want to know if it's even possible for the Cleric class to function without worshipping a deity for a character concept I'd like to bring to life.

[Deadmanwalking]

First of all, worshiping a deity does not make you a fanatic, not even if you're as devout as a Cleric has to be.

Second, by the game rules, you can instead follow a philosophy or some other belief and gain power from that.

However, in Golarion (the 'official' Pathfinder world), and thus in PFS, that second bit doesn't apply, and all Clerics require a deity

So yes, by the rules, you can do what you're talking about, but in some worlds it may not be a valid option. Consult with your GM about whether it's cool in his world.

[Lumiere Dawnbringer]

whose to say a cleric cannot draw their powers from a philosophy such as

the Bushido Code
or Bhuddism
or Taoism
or Shintoism
or Shugendo
or Confucianism

for example in place of a god.

whose to say your cleric worships a

Great Wyrm Dragon
Or Solar
Or Pit Fiend
Or the Terrasque
Or Treerazer
Or the Jabberwocky
Or the Bandersnatch
Or a Titan
Or a Balor
or a Rhakshasa Maharaja
or an Oni

in place of a god. any CR 17+ monster should be a valid option for clerical worship because many of them, are godlike beings as far as humans and other 0HD PCs are concerned

[Odraude]

There's another topic like this going on. I like the other thread about this topic better. Title feels too aggressive and confrontational.

[Zhayne]

You don't have to be a nutjob to be a cleric. You don't have to try to convert every living being you see, or hate other people because they don't kiss the same divine buttocks you do.

The best religious folks, IMHO, live their life by example and don't try to shove it down your throat.

And there is the philosphy option as well.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

The title is not to be confrontational; it merely addresses the issue of how there can possibly be clerics who don't worship deities when that is the only kind of cleric you ever see in Pathfinder.

[Cheapy]

If you didn't want it to be confrontational, then you shouldn't have made it confrontational.

In the base setting of pathfinder, golarion, it's not possible. You can make clerics of philosophies if your gm allows it. It's still getting powers from a divine source though.

[Tempestorm]

That is NOT the only kind of cleric I see in Pathfinder. Rather inappropriate use of "you" there.

Have I played Religious fanatics or seen others play them? Yes.

Have I played Divine characters who were very "teach by example" types who weren't fanatical by any stretch of the term and seen others play as such? Absolutely.

As others have said, in standard Galarion a Deity is required. Fanaticism, on the other hand, is not. That being said, for a home game set in Galarion this can be changed to the generic rule. That is, again as others have said, the worship of a philosophy or an ideal or a tree or a grasshopper or... you get the point?

[Odraude]

I need to take a shot for how many people misspell Golarion ;)

[Tempestorm]

Not sure why, but I make that mistake a lot. ;)

[Kimera757]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

As the question says. Basically want to know if it's even possible for the Cleric class to function without worshipping a deity for a character concept I'd like to bring to life.

Every time there's a paladin thread, people talk about cleric codes. They don't exist in a metagame format. I've never seen them outside of Forgotten Realms, and they're usually pretty easy. Things like here are five virtues, and plant a tree once per week, since you're worshiping Mielikki.

(I don't have that old 2e book though, so I can't quote properly.)

Clerics don't have to be lawful. They can have their own lives. They just need to not go against their god's agenda. (Dark Sun, which had elemental clerics back in 2e, was very specific about this. A 2e fire cleric could operate a community's hearth, or they could be a serial killer who likes to burn things to death. The elemental spirits do not care. Just don't let the locals shut down the local fire shrine, that's a good way to lose your powers.)

And, of course, the elephant in the room. We're comparing them to a real-life religion that's heavily based on order, and not on say Ancient Greek or Egyptian religion, which unfortunately no longer exist.

[Lumiere Dawnbringer]

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

[wraithstrike]

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

For the purpose of rules they worship the ones they get the spells from.

[MrSin]

wraithstrike wrote:

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

For the purpose of rules they worship the ones they get the spells from.

If I remember correctly, Eberron had a pantheon or two you could worship. You picked 2 domains from any of the deities in it. I don't remember the specifics of it beyond that though, and Eberron happens to be a weird place.

[TOZ]

Tempestorm wrote:

Not sure why, but I make that mistake a lot. ;)

Trying to take advantage of a drunken Odraude, eh?

[Lumiere Dawnbringer]

wraithstrike wrote:

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

For the purpose of rules they worship the ones they get the spells from.

a pantheist is just like a 'concept' cleric. you mix and match domains, ignore alignment restrictions, but don't get a favored weapon without DM approval.

[wraithstrike]

MrSin wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

For the purpose of rules they worship the ones they get the spells from.

If I remember correctly, Eberron had a pantheon or two you could worship. You picked 2 domains from any of the deities in it. I don't remember the specifics of it beyond that though, and Eberron happens to be a weird place.

Eberron allowed you to worship ideas by RAW. You did not even have to pick a deity. I liked Eberron. :)

[wraithstrike]

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

For the purpose of rules they worship the ones they get the spells from.

a pantheist is just like a 'concept' cleric. you mix and match domains, ignore alignment restrictions, but don't get a favored weapon without DM approval.

I see what you mean now.

[Kimera757]

There were two pantheons that a cleric could worship in Eberron - the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six.

Clerics of either got a specific list of domains and a specific favored weapon. It wasn't more powerful than worshiping a single deity.

There were also other "gods" that were kind of similar. The elven gods of death were a bunch of powerful (but not individually divine) "undead" creatures.

Eberron had some other interesting rules. You didn't need to have an alignment matching your god. Evil clerics of the Silver Flame were possible, for instance, not only making corruption within their church possible, but the Silver Flame was basically a combination between a powerful couatl and a demon of some kind. Evil clerics were getting messages from the same source. Well, almost.

[Odraude]

TOZ wrote:

Tempestorm wrote:

Not sure why, but I make that mistake a lot. ;)

Trying to take advantage of a drunken Odraude, eh?

:O THE CAD!

[MrSin]

Kimera757 wrote:

There were two pantheons that a cleric could worship in Eberron - the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six.

Clerics of either got a specific list of domains and a specific favored weapon. It wasn't more powerful than worshiping a single deity.

Huh, could've sworn you had the choice of any of the domains at least. Wasn't sure how the favored weapon worked. Distant memories of a book I don't own.

Oddly enough, no matter what weapon proficiencies you get or domains you have access to, your never more powerful than a normal cleric.(Unless you for some reason get 3 for worshipping a deity, though I don't know any deity who does that.)

[Kimera757]

MrSin wrote:

Kimera757 wrote:

There were two pantheons that a cleric could worship in Eberron - the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six.

Clerics of either got a specific list of domains and a specific favored weapon. It wasn't more powerful than worshiping a single deity.

Huh, could've sworn you had the choice of any of the domains at least. Wasn't sure how the favored weapon worked. Distant memories of a book I don't own.

Oddly enough, no matter what weapon proficiencies you get or domains you have access to, your never more powerful than a normal cleric.(Unless you for some reason get 3 for worshipping a deity, though I don't know any deity who does that.)

Looks like I was wrong. You get your choice of all those domains, though only two (taking alignment restrictions into account). You get Dol Dorn's favored weapon if you take the War domain. (I think Dol Dorn is the only one who offers War anyway.)

This wouldn't make you more powerful. Contrary to some beliefs, domains are not balanced by giving gods some strong and some weak domains. A domain's power is split between the spells and the granted ability. Exceptions exist of course, but a weak granted power usually gives strong spells, or a strong granted power gives weak spells. Fire is an excellent example of the former; the ability to turn/rebuke water/fire elementals almost never comes up, but you get blasting spells not available to other cleircs.

There's no god that gives three domains, but I know there's some way to get it. Probably a prestige class.

[Zhayne]

wraithstrike wrote:

MrSin wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

For the purpose of rules they worship the ones they get the spells from.

If I remember correctly, Eberron had a pantheon or two you could worship. You picked 2 domains from any of the deities in it. I don't remember the specifics of it beyond that though, and Eberron happens to be a weird place.

Eberron allowed you to worship ideas by RAW. You did not even have to pick a deity. I liked Eberron. :)

Me, too. I loved that the creator of the game came on the boards and expressly said, if you believed strongly enough in your shoe, you could become a Cleric of Your Shoe.

[MrSin]

Kimera757 wrote:

There's no god that gives three domains, but I know there's some way to get it. Probably a prestige class.

In 3.5 there were definitely a few ways, and several prestige classes. Cloistered cleric got one from the start. Pathfinder to my knowledge doesn't and actively avoids it, and many of the cleric archetypes actually take away domains or force you into particular domains, which I'm not particularly fond of. The Divine Scion in pathfinder gets a specialized domain, but I don't see anywhere that it says it actually gives you an additional domain.

[Tempestorm]

Odraude wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Tempestorm wrote:

Not sure why, but I make that mistake a lot. ;)

Trying to take advantage of a drunken Odraude, eh?

:O THE CAD!

Blast it! How was I supposed to know TOZ had such a good Sense Motive skill?

[3.5 Loyalist]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

As the question says. Basically want to know if it's even possible for the Cleric class to function without worshipping a deity for a character concept I'd like to bring to life.

For an example in literature and film, see Cadfael.

For a non deist, go domain cleric. Some people are hostile to this though, and paizo has gone against the idea.

But it is your game, or a game in which you can persuade the dm.

[3.5 Loyalist]

Zhayne wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

MrSin wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

For the purpose of rules they worship the ones they get the spells from.

If I remember correctly, Eberron had a pantheon or two you could worship. You picked 2 domains from any of the deities in it. I don't remember the specifics of it beyond that though, and Eberron happens to be a weird place.

Eberron allowed you to worship ideas by RAW. You did not even have to pick a deity. I liked Eberron. :)

Me, too. I loved that the creator of the game came on the boards and expressly said, if you believed strongly enough in your shoe, you could become a Cleric of Your Shoe.

The "kick" domain is bound to be really strong. Kick, stomp and shuffle.

[TOZ]

Tempestorm wrote:

Odraude wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Tempestorm wrote:

Not sure why, but I make that mistake a lot. ;)

Trying to take advantage of a drunken Odraude, eh?

:O THE CAD!

Blast it! How was I supposed to know TOZ had such a good Sense Motive skill?

Huh?

[DungeonmasterCal]

For 20 years my homebrew campaign's clerics followed "Paths". Essentially they chose the domains they wanted themselves, and then lived up to their alignments' and class' precepts. In some cases, groups of like minded clerics (those who followed the same paths) would form temples or shrines where they could meditate, instruct, and discuss the various aspects of their Path.

[3.5 Loyalist]

Very cool.

[Goldenfrog]

It's a game,do whatever you want. If you want Divine Magic to come from within like some Dragonlance mystic it can work. If you want Divine Magic to be just another (School) of Magic and remove clerics from the game and let Wizards and Sorcerers pick Divine spells as well,it can work.

Now in my games I love Clerics and Divine Magic that comes only from Deities who are worshiped so devoutly they reward those (Fanatics)with Divine Power.

In my games if a Cleric $%$%^'s up bad enough he can be denied all access to spells. Also once we had a Deity Die so all his Clerics were left without spells.Good Times!

Really though,it's your game.Do whatever works for you.

[Aioran]

Kimera757 wrote:

There's no god that gives three domains, but I know there's some way to get it. Probably a prestige class.

Getting multiple domains in DnD is actually very easy.

Sovereign Speaker (Faiths of Eberron) is a 9 level PrC specifically for clerics worshipping the Sovereign Host that gives you a domain every level.

@OP: Well since a core part of fanaticism is 'unthinking zeal' (thanks Wikipedia ;D!), I would think that if you wanted a cleric who was not a fanatic you just have to be critical of your religion and your actions in the name of your religion and higher power.

EDIT: Oh, you only want to not worship a deity. NVM.

[Marius Castille]

I wouldn't call my cleric of Cayden Cailean a fanatic. Sure he converted the party to his worship but it wasn't exactly a hard sell (do good deeds, have a pint). Go to church (aka tavern) every once in a while. Maybe donate a bit of coin to help keep the doors open. As a player, I felt a bit guilty that weren't more strictures. ("So you're saying I can have awesome divine power in exchange for stuff I was already doing. Where do I sign up?)

[Lincoln Hills]

Within Golarion officially, the rules-as-written say that your cleric (or inquisitor) must be affiliated with a deity. That said, there are many different ways for the deity/clergy relationship to work. Not all are "fanatical worship." Here are three alternate, non-fanatic ideas that might liven up your next cleric's personality:

Employer/Employee: Your cleric regards the church as his/her foremost loyalty and the deity as more of a CEO; the being who makes the big-picture decisions and presents a public face for the church. Interaction with the Chief is rare, because if you and the church are both doing the job right there's no need for the Chief to intervene in crises.

Wearer/Garment: The cleric is a vodoun-style channeler. He/she prefers to use mundane means, 'donning' the god's power only when there's vital need. Your cleric believes mortals can too easily misuse or become addicted to the power otherwise. Interaction with the god directly is rare, because even a 'benevolent' deity is a non-human supernatural force of great age and power: a little mistrust is not uncalled for.

Private Eye/Client: The cleric was an adherent of his/her alignment long before seeking divine power from the deity. He/she may even stand outside the church structure entirely. From the cleric's point of view, the deity assigns the 'jobs', provides information as necessary, and pays with magical power rather than gold. Prayer to the Client is pretty common, but since this is a briefing of the Client on your activities since your last update, there's not a lot of simpering or kneeling. (And no, your holy vestments don't have to include a trenchcoat and a half-smoked cigarette.)

[Staffan Johansson]

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

whose to say a cleric cannot draw their powers from a philosophy such as

the Bushido Code
or Bhuddism
or Taoism
or Shintoism
or Shugendo
or Confucianism

for example in place of a god.

I believe (heh) the canonical (heh) answer is that someone gaining divine power from a concept or philosophy rather than a deity is an Oracle, not a Cleric. Someone gaining power from the concept of Bushido would be an Oracle of Battles, not a Cleric of Bushido.

Quote:

whose to say your cleric worships a

Great Wyrm Dragon
Or Solar
Or Pit Fiend
Or the Terrasque
Or Treerazer
Or the Jabberwocky
Or the Bandersnatch
Or a Titan
Or a Balor
or a Rhakshasa Maharaja
or an Oni

in place of a god. any CR 17+ monster should be a valid option for clerical worship because many of them, are godlike beings as far as humans and other 0HD PCs are concerned

While they may be powerful enough for a commoner to view them as gods, they do not have the power to imbue followers with divine might. Some extra-powerful outsiders do have such power - in Golarion you have archdevils, demon lords, the Eldest, elemental lords, empyrial lords, and the Horsemen. But these are rarely worshiped because their interests are less aligned with those of humans.

That said, I prefer the Eberron approach to religion, where gods do not sit on the outer planes and scheme and plan and interact with their followers. Instead they are distant and unknowable, and may not actually exist, which leaves more room for actual faith.

[MrSin]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

I believe (heh) the canonical (heh) answer is that someone gaining divine power from a concept or philosophy rather than a deity is an Oracle, not a Cleric. Someone gaining power from the concept of Bushido would be an Oracle of Battles, not a Cleric of Bushido.

Oddly enough, clerics are the ones who do philosophy and oracles are more of a fluke of divine spark in some fashion. The clerics with a deity being oracles is a retcon... which I think is kinda sad myself.

[Fromper]

Zhayne wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

MrSin wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

a cleric may technically worship multiple gods if they wished. it is called a pantheist.

as long as you get along with one of the gods, you are fine.

For the purpose of rules they worship the ones they get the spells from.

If I remember correctly, Eberron had a pantheon or two you could worship. You picked 2 domains from any of the deities in it. I don't remember the specifics of it beyond that though, and Eberron happens to be a weird place.

Eberron allowed you to worship ideas by RAW. You did not even have to pick a deity. I liked Eberron. :)

Me, too. I loved that the creator of the game came on the boards and expressly said, if you believed strongly enough in your shoe, you could become a Cleric of Your Shoe.

Am I the only one reminded of Banjo the Clown? But yes, you can be a cleric of an ideal in Pathfinder, if your GM allows it.

But in PFS, you must worship a deity. That doesn't mean you need to be a fanatic. My cleric of Besmara, the pirate queen, is just a pirate who happens to get unholy power (he's a negative channeler) from a goddess, because he embodies the personality she looks for in worshipers. He doesn't preach, doesn't talk about her much, and wouldn't meet most people's definition of a fanatic.

[Zhayne]

So, at this point, I suppose the question is 'Is this for PFS or a home game'?

[Oliver McShade]

I always just call cleric = Psionic's, and drop the whole god thing. Same spell list, same rules, just alter the name of a few spells, like Miracle to Alter Reality. or some such.

[James Jacobs]

Clerics in Golarion must worship a deity.

For all other divine spellcasters in Golarion (inquisitors included), the assumption is that you worship a deity or group of deities, but that's not required. You can be an inquisitor of a group, such as the House of Thrune (note that this is NOT the same as an inquisitor of Asmodeus), or a ranger who follows the green faith, or an oracle of the Whispering Way, and so on.

In home games, of course, anything goes—your GM is the one who gets to make those calls.

And for the record, that doesn't make you a fanatic.

It's absolutely possible to be a cleric who isn't a deity-worshiping fanatic. Most of them are not. Most of them drop the "fanatic" part of that description entirely, and are merely deity-worshipers.

[Vinja89]

yep, in fact one of the most memorable clerics i ever played with worshipped himself. his holy symbol was a painting of his face on his shield, and to get his spells he looked in a mirror every morning and talked about how awesome he was, hilarious.

EDIT: as has been said whether it is or isnt allwoed ultimately falls to the GM of course

[LazarX]

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

whose to say a cleric cannot draw their powers from a philosophy such as

the Bushido Code
or Bhuddism
or Taoism
or Shintoism
or Shugendo
or Confucianism

for example in place of a god.

whose to say your cleric worships a

Great Wyrm Dragon
Or Solar
Or Pit Fiend
Or the Terrasque
Or Treerazer
Or the Jabberwocky
Or the Bandersnatch
Or a Titan
Or a Balor
or a Rhakshasa Maharaja
or an Oni

in place of a god. any CR 17+ monster should be a valid option for clerical worship because many of them, are godlike beings as far as humans and other 0HD PCs are concerned

The world (such as Golarion, or Greyhawk,) might say. You can worship anything you feel like, but only certain beings have the power to grant divine gifts and spells. Like it, or not, a cleric, a druid, or an oracle, or any other divine caster, is someeone whose power comes from without, not within.

[MrSin]

Wait, a cleric can't choose get his powers from an deity but an inquisitor gains divine power from wherever he wants? How does that work? I always thought inquisitors followed the same rules.

[Mikaze]

I can't recall any deific cleric I've played that was a fanatic...

[Beckett]

MrSin wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

I believe (heh) the canonical (heh) answer is that someone gaining divine power from a concept or philosophy rather than a deity is an Oracle, not a Cleric. Someone gaining power from the concept of Bushido would be an Oracle of Battles, not a Cleric of Bushido.

Oddly enough, clerics are the ones who do philosophy and oracles are more of a fluke of divine spark in some fashion. The clerics with a deity being oracles is a retcon... which I think is kinda sad myself.

That's a lot of the reason I kind of hate the Oracle.

[LazarX]

MrSin wrote:

Wait, a cleric can't choose get his powers from an deity but an inquisitor gains divine power from wherever he wants? How does that work? I always thought inquisitors followed the same rules.

It's not from "whatever he wants". For all intents and purposes, inquisitors are assumed to follow some divine order. They may serve a diety, or a particular church, but it's not something that you can change at the drop of a hat. Whatever an inquisitor serves, he has to be just as dedicated as any other divine caster.

[Beckett]

MrSin wrote:

Wait, a cleric can't choose get his powers from an deity but an inquisitor gains divine power from wherever he wants? How does that work? I always thought inquisitors followed the same rules.

The idea for the Inquisitor was that they strongly followed a principle or set of laws/codes. It was originally called out that one could be a <Golarion> atheist Inquisitor of Rahadoum, hunting down non-non-believers and the faithful as an example. PFS kind of botched that up a bit, and as it is presented very similar to the Cleric in regards to not serving a deity, I don't think that intent came through so well.

[MrSin]

LazarX wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Wait, a cleric can't choose get his powers from an deity but an inquisitor gains divine power from wherever he wants? How does that work? I always thought inquisitors followed the same rules.

It's not from "whatever he wants". For all intents and purposes, inquisitors are assumed to follow some divine order. They may serve a diety, or a particular church, but it's not something that you can change at the drop of a hat. Whatever an inquisitor serves, he has to be just as dedicated as any other divine caster.

But still, you get where I'm coming from right? Six level caster with lots of spells from the cleric list such as divine power. Why can't a cleric do the same? What exactly should or can the inquisitor serve? I didn't know that until today. Questions... In PFS I know they have to turn to a deity an inquisitor, so that's what my last two GMs told me.

Beckett wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Oddly enough, clerics are the ones who do philosophy and oracles are more of a fluke of divine spark in some fashion. The clerics with a deity being oracles is a retcon... which I think is kinda sad myself.

That's a lot of the reason I kind of hate the Oracle.

Ditto, but I have habit of trying to give everyone as many options as possible. I'd rather have the classes co exist in the same places than have one steal the place of another.

[Beckett]

Yah, in PFS they made a rule that basically all divine characters hereon require a deity with exceptions.

I agree. About options, I just mean that I hate how the Oracle basically steals a huge portion of the Cleric's flavor, and I think that comparing the two, they kind of mixed up the flavor I regards to patron options of the two. Cleric as actually written, makes a much better follower of an ideal/philosophy/religion in my opinion, while Oracle again, as actually written, makes a much better pimp-smacked by a single patron deity (even if you don't know who yet) like it or not, again, I my opinion.

[Tholomyes]

Well, if you're not in PFS, and James Jacob is not personally DMing your game, you can even have Clerics of Ideals in your Golarion games too.

Still, there is a reason that organized play does it the way they do; it keeps people all on the same playing field. Deities are a way to do this. In your home games, you don't need to follow this same ruling.