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I keep hearing how easy it is to break, but I personally don't see maybe my power-gaming muscles are geting old and flabby. Would anyone like to tell me how to game the system?
dotting would like to know
Ask the people who claim it is easy to break. If they have no answer that might be an answer. :)
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Haven't thought much about it but lemme see...
Diplomacy counts as being trained for all four types of Capital. So stacking Diplomacy and taking options that boost it increase your ability to generate all four Capitals quickly. So you can build buildings quickly and gain even more bonuses to generate even more capital.
Once you have a sizable stack, you can spend it continuously to gain bonuses to checks.
Let's see... an inn costs 2,130 gp to buy outright but roughly 1165 gp to earn and grants roughly a +50 bonus to checks made to earn gp. Assuming a low to mid-level character with +15 Diplo bonus they can Take Ten to hit a 75 Diplomacy check to earn gold snagging 7.5gp each day or 37.5gp a week. Which is equal to Taking Ten on a Profession check while having 60-odd ranks in Profession, making it a far easier way of generating revenue.
The inn will pay for itself in 31 weeks (or 22 if you work weekends).
i would not call that breaking 7.5 gp is like a cr3 fight
theres a crazy icemage in ravingdork's character thread who can make tons of free simulacrums, and i've heard that blood money (the spell) can snap item crafting costs over your knee.
theres a crazy icemage in ravingdork's character thread who can make tons of free simulacrums, and i've heard that blood money (the spell) can snap item crafting costs over your knee.
Blood Money won't work on crafting. But as said, you can use it to make a free army of 7th level+ wizards. Also if you can get your Str up to 52 you can cast wish for free.
how exactly? Just saying that is making like the "god wizard" argument if i can get any sat up to 52 there are a lot of things i can do for free like deep sea diving without gear thats not breaking the system thats using a broken part of the game and saying the system is broken.
thats not breaking the system thats using a broken part of the game and saying the system is broken.
Yes. That's pretty much the definition of "broken", isn't it? There's a part of the system that is broken, and now the whole does not quite function as intended.
right but the part that is being referred to is that the game stops working with abilities in the 20 and above range as a DM i know how to work around that "broken" part of the game i would like to know what if anything is broken about the downtime system.
so no a 52 in my pc str is not a broken part of the downtime system
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Blood Money is a bad spell as long as Lesser Restoration has no expensive material component.
I'm guessing they mean combine Blood Money and Fabricate, but as near as I can tell that won't work - Blood Money has a very strict limitation on the duration of the component before it disappears again, and Fabricate is at least 1 round to cast.
Edit: Actually, disregard that. 1 round translates to a full round action spell that kicks into effect the next round. Blood money and Fabricate is a valid combination, as far as I can tell.
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Sometimes a GM just has to say "no". What is legal by RAW is not always good for the game. The devs can't test every option against every other option. The GM however can look at two options and just deny them working together. That is part of his responsibility.
lol i had to look up the spell blood money not a book my players will have
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Frankly, i think that this system will never allow you to go far above wealth by level unless you are below 3rd level or have months and months of downtime to use up. Frankly, if the PCs get to point where major part of their wealth comes from downtime you can just threaten their settlement with anything to create adventure.
True, but the benefit is less the gold bonus and more spending 50gp for a +5 bonus (untyped), which is a pretty cheap consumable and balanced only by needing to be in a sizable city and GM permission.
how exactly? Just saying that is making like the "god wizard" argument if i can get any sat up to 52 there are a lot of things i can do for free like deep sea diving without gear thats not breaking the system thats using a broken part of the game and saying the system is broken.
That last part was a joke. I assume you can't get your STR up to 52.
The game developers have contradicted themselves on whether or not blood money can be used with long casting time spells.
When they do things like that, I usually (but not always) follow the interpretation that requires less reworking of a character (at least for the purposes of my Crazy Character Emporium).
And I'm pretty sure I've seen builds with Strength scores as high as 60, Journ-O-LST-3, but I don't think any were capable of casting blood money.
In any case, you don't need such a complex build. Just magic jar a super strong creature before casting blood money. Why sap your strength when you can zap that belonging to someone else?
how exactly? Just saying that is making like the "god wizard" argument if i can get any sat up to 52 there are a lot of things i can do for free like deep sea diving without gear thats not breaking the system thats using a broken part of the game and saying the system is broken.That last part was a joke. I assume you can't get your STR up to 52.
Let's see... an inn costs 2,130 gp to buy outright but roughly 1165 gp to earn and grants roughly a +50 bonus to checks made to earn gp. Assuming a low to mid-level character with +15 Diplo bonus they can Take Ten to hit a 75 Diplomacy check to earn gold snagging 7.5gp each day or 37.5gp a week. Which is equal to Taking Ten on a Profession check while having 60-odd ranks in Profession, making it a far easier way of generating revenue.
The inn will pay for itself in 31 weeks (or 22 if you work weekends).
Or.....
A completely legitimate item:
Robe of infinite twine - 1,000g.
"The wearer can draw up to 30 feet of twine or up to 10 feet of hemp rope per round from the robe without harming it." Rope sells for more. Each round, draw out 10 feet of hemp rope. In an 8 hour work day, you can create 48,000 feet of hemp rope = 480g (after 50% sale price) of hemp rope per day. You make back your money in less than 3 days and make tons of money over the long run.
There are two 'more broken' items like this that make thousands of gold per day.
I have a druid shapeshifter in my current party that when raging can get his strength to 54. He's stupid broken.
Let's see... Mithral weighs 50% of steel. The density of steel fluctuates but let's estimate that it weighs about 500 lb per cubic foot, so mithral weighs about 250 lb per cubic foot.
A 9th level caster would be able to make 90 cubic feet of material components, so 90 * 250 = 22 500 lb of mithral. To justify the use of Fabricate, he needs the mithral to make an incredibly ugly statue (think a 6 year old's snowman but in mithral) that has no artistic or aesthetic value, so the need for a craft check is minimal.
Mithral is listed as having a trade value of 500 gp per lb, so the total value would be roughly 11 250 000 GP. Players typically sell materials at half value, so our theoretic wizard will melt his statue down and sell it for the material value, so let's cut that down to 5 625 000 GP.
Now, there are some logistical problems - for instance if you dump 10 metric tons of mithral into your local economy, odds are the price is going to drop a fair bit.
There's also the slight issue that casting fabricate to create 22 500 lb of mithral with Blood Money would inflict roughly 22 500 points of strength damage...
Let's see... an inn costs 2,130 gp to buy outright but roughly 1165 gp to earn and grants roughly a +50 bonus to checks made to earn gp. Assuming a low to mid-level character with +15 Diplo bonus they can Take Ten to hit a 75 Diplomacy check to earn gold snagging 7.5gp each day or 37.5gp a week. Which is equal to Taking Ten on a Profession check while having 60-odd ranks in Profession, making it a far easier way of generating revenue.
The inn will pay for itself in 31 weeks (or 22 if you work weekends).Or.....
A completely legitimate item:
Robe of infinite twine - 1,000g.
"The wearer can draw up to 30 feet of twine or up to 10 feet of hemp rope per round from the robe without harming it." Rope sells for more. Each round, draw out 10 feet of hemp rope. In an 8 hour work day, you can create 48,000 feet of hemp rope = 480g (after 50% sale price) of hemp rope per day. You make back your money in less than 3 days and make tons of money over the long run.There are two 'more broken' items like this that make thousands of gold per day.
Yeah... because there is such a huge market for tiny pieces of rope.
Let's see... Mithral weighs 50% of steel. The density of steel fluctuates but let's estimate that it weighs about 500 lb per cubic foot, so mithral weighs about 250 lb per cubic foot.
A 9th level caster would be able to make 90 cubic feet of material components, so 90 * 250 = 22 500 lb of mithral. To justify the use of Fabricate, he needs the mithral to make an incredibly ugly statue (think a 6 year old's snowman but in mithral) that has no artistic or aesthetic value, so the need for a craft check is minimal.
Mithral is listed as having a trade value of 500 gp per lb, so the total value would be roughly 11 250 000 GP. Players typically sell materials at half value, so our theoretic wizard will melt his statue down and sell it for the material value, so let's cut that down to 5 625 000 GP.
Now, there are some logistical problems - for instance if you dump 10 metric tons of mithral into your local economy, odds are the price is going to drop a fair bit.
There's also the slight issue that casting fabricate to create 22 500 lb of mithral with Blood Money would inflict roughly 22 500 points of strength damage...
lol.. so you go unconscious for a while!! =D
Ok...but, the Downtime system?
That's why you just take over a creature you summon that has 25 strength and make 11,999gp worth of Mithril (or gold or whatever). This can be done at 9th level.
Otherwise you are unconscious and can't cast the spell.
Oh, agreed. I just wanted to illustrate that you're a lot more likely to run out of strength before the size limitation becomes an issue if you're using Blood Money and Fabricate to make money.
That said, short of Demiplane time manipulation I can't really see how the downtime system is easily broken. Not compared to other parts of the game, anyways.
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A completely legitimate item:
Robe of infinite twine - 1,000g.
"The wearer can draw up to 30 feet of twine or up to 10 feet of hemp rope per round from the robe without harming it." Rope sells for more. Each round, draw out 10 feet of hemp rope. In an 8 hour work day, you can create 48,000 feet of hemp rope = 480g (after 50% sale price) of hemp rope per day. You make back your money in less than 3 days and make tons of money over the long run.
...is there really a demand for a 48,000 foot daily supply of hemp rope?
...is there really a demand for a 48,000 foot daily supply of hemp rope?A completely legitimate item:
Robe of infinite twine - 1,000g.
"The wearer can draw up to 30 feet of twine or up to 10 feet of hemp rope per round from the robe without harming it." Rope sells for more. Each round, draw out 10 feet of hemp rope. In an 8 hour work day, you can create 48,000 feet of hemp rope = 480g (after 50% sale price) of hemp rope per day. You make back your money in less than 3 days and make tons of money over the long run.
At a port, easily....
Having an ability go to or below 0 = death of your character = cannot sell that mithral snowman.
* Having an ability score around -22,000 = unconscious for roughly 66 years, so your character might as well be dead because s/he will be unplayable for the remainder of the campaign.
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Let's see... an inn costs 2,130 gp to buy outright but roughly 1165 gp to earn and grants roughly a +50 bonus to checks made to earn gp. Assuming a low to mid-level character with +15 Diplo bonus they can Take Ten to hit a 75 Diplomacy check to earn gold snagging 7.5gp each day or 37.5gp a week. Which is equal to Taking Ten on a Profession check while having 60-odd ranks in Profession, making it a far easier way of generating revenue.
The inn will pay for itself in 31 weeks (or 22 if you work weekends).Or.....
A completely legitimate item:
Robe of infinite twine - 1,000g.
"The wearer can draw up to 30 feet of twine or up to 10 feet of hemp rope per round from the robe without harming it." Rope sells for more. Each round, draw out 10 feet of hemp rope. In an 8 hour work day, you can create 48,000 feet of hemp rope = 480g (after 50% sale price) of hemp rope per day. You make back your money in less than 3 days and make tons of money over the long run.There are two 'more broken' items like this that make thousands of gold per day.
I think stuff like this is where the GM and economics come into play. If one can make an endless free supply of rope, one will devalue the commodity and won't buy it. Or you will attract the rope makes guild who will send assassins to stop your disruption of the market place, or better yet take your robe.
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There isn't an endless market, and excessive material in the market results in lowered prices unless the prices are controlled. If the prices are controlled you're in a command economy and have other problems (like the Government ordering you not to make more rope).
Even fabricate runs into the same problems. Aside from the fact most mages are crazy, there's a valid reason that fabricate empires don't rise up, and thats the mages are smart enough to know they'll price themselves out of business /and/ devalue their own property. Supply will rapidly outpace demand and its value will drop drop drop.
Most of this stuff arises from people assuming the DnD Economy is a vending machine/atm attached to a giant pile of money with set prices, they insert things and withdraw them. This is because the system doesn't want to get gummed up with economies (its also why PF made a nice vague capital system), because while a nice side thing, its not what the game is actually about.
Course I'm bringing economics into RPGs again.
Having an ability go to or below 0 = death of your character = cannot sell that mithral snowman.
* Having an ability score around -22,000 = unconscious for roughly 66 years, so your character might as well be dead because s/he will be unplayable for the remainder of the campaign.
As has been pointed out, having a negative strength modifier does not kill you, it leaves you unconscious - and blood money applies strength damage, not constitution damage.
Furthermore the application of a (4th level) Restoration spell would immediately remove all strength damage (in this case, 22 500 points of ability damage).That said, the spell would fail anyway since the caster would go unconscious before he was able to finish casting Fabricate.
I can't help but feel that I need to state, again, that the "Mithral Snowman" experiment was to highlight that you'll have strength damage problems before you run out of space in the cubic feet limitation of the spell as long as you choose a moderately valuable material - the cubic feet limitation is not a limitation at all if your only goal is to earn money.
There isn't an endless market, and excessive material in the market results in lowered prices unless the prices are controlled. If the prices are controlled you're in a command economy and have other problems (like the Government ordering you not to make more rope).
Even fabricate runs into the same problems. Aside from the fact most mages are crazy, there's a valid reason that fabricate empires don't rise up, and thats the mages are smart enough to know they'll price themselves out of business /and/ devalue their own property. Supply will rapidly outpace demand and its value will drop drop drop.
Most of this stuff arises from people assuming the DnD Economy is a vending machine/atm attached to a giant pile of money with set prices, they insert things and withdraw them. This is because the system doesn't want to get gummed up with economies (its also why PF made a nice vague capital system), because while a nice side thing, its not what the game is actually about.
Course I'm bringing economics into RPGs again. (Emphasis Added)
And only doing a cursory job at it.
Lots of a cheap good can have a negative impact on the economy temporarily and certainly the market price would go down in time (to the tune of likely approach the price you are selling it at). But that leaves all the people buying rope with more money to spend on other things. So while the rope makers would suffer, other parts of the economy would get a boost. In a particular kingdom, you'd likely strengthen its navy and shipping prowess a decent bit.
And you're being silly about Wizards with fabricate. It's insanely easy for them to just switch what they are doing to something else. Long term, lots of wizards with fabricate would reduce the cost of everyone. Cheaper goods isn't a bad thing. You'd see a growth in the service industry (which fabricate cannot provide), and though there'd be initial economic instability the long-term effect would be a tremendous economic boom.
The funny...
Their is a limiting factor their are not that many 9th level wizards and of them their might not be that many willing to bleed themselves dry about every day in order to make a few quick bucks. Of course this supports that player should be able to make a lot of money using this tactic. As for the people talking about how people would try and kill them for providing a service if that's the case the hero should start a quest of reform in this oppressive system.
...is there really a demand for a 48,000 foot daily supply of hemp rope?A completely legitimate item:
Robe of infinite twine - 1,000g.
"The wearer can draw up to 30 feet of twine or up to 10 feet of hemp rope per round from the robe without harming it." Rope sells for more. Each round, draw out 10 feet of hemp rope. In an 8 hour work day, you can create 48,000 feet of hemp rope = 480g (after 50% sale price) of hemp rope per day. You make back your money in less than 3 days and make tons of money over the long run.In a large port city? I'd think you could find a market easily enough.
Edit: Swordsaged!
Actually, just because you can make all the rope doesn't mean you automatically sell it all. To sell stuff, you'd essentially make weekly Profession (Rope Maker) or Craft (Rope) checks to see how muck gold you make that week (half your check). So even if you can make 48,000 gold worth of rope doesn't mean you can sell it all.
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And yeah my discussion is cursory. I'm not going to awaken my poor unused degrees in business for a discussion on pointy hatted wizards. :)
Also, there's no such thing as a post scarcity economy. There might be situations where material requirements are taken care of, but there's always some commodity to deal with (like land, concert tickets, etc), wizards, replicators or whatever.
And the complaints probably would come from below not above. The term saboteur refers to the folks who threw their shoes into machinery that had deprived them of jobs.
I'm a proponent of the belief that efficiencies improve life in the long term (I am by no means a believer in the agrarian-utopia fallcy that stuff like Star Trek Insurrection inexpertly foists on us), but in the short term you reap a crop of unemployment, underemployment and societal changes, and the trick is keeping the legal system up to pace with it to allow for it to bloom and not just turn into feudalism mk 2 (now with smokestacks!) or socialism.
But the problem really boils down to gamers believing their mw longswords will always be 300+cost of long sword gp, regardless of if they make 10,000,003 of the bloody things, and the assumption there's always someone to buy them (presumably after a point they're eating them, using them as pruning shears, turning them into make-shift suppositories or making furniture out of them).
I fear I'm dragging this convo off topic though. Mostly since I think the OP is looking for RAW mechanical methods of doing fun and goofy RAW stuff to the downtime system and I'm arguing world verisimilitude issues.
Robe of useful items (make for 3,500g, sell standard items for 25.2g, resell goal 3474.8g: 4d4 items/patches per Robe. 1-8 = 100g, 9 – 15 = 500g, 16 – 22 (10 ft x 10 ft x 2 in iron slab door = 16 2/3rd cubic feet of iron x 491.09 pounds per cubic foot = 8,184 5/6 lbs of iron – most inefficiently priced weapon (vs. weight) is chakram – 1 g = 1 lb – raw iron = ½ cost, selling item = ½ cost, so iron door = 1/4th cost, 8,184 5/6 x ¼ = 2,046g *this number is somewhat debatable, but is around this price*, 23 – 30 = 1,000g, 31 – 44 = 0.1 g, 45 – 51 = 6g, 52 – 59 = 0g, 60 – 68 = 187.5g, 69 – 75 = 25g, 76 – 83 = random, 84 – 90 = 150g, 91 – 96 = 0g, 97 – 100 = ?) : basically if you do not roll good – resell at craft price (3,500g) – if you roll good, pull patches off to make items, sell for profit
Actually, just because you can make all the rope doesn't mean you automatically sell it all. To sell stuff, you'd essentially make weekly Profession (Rope Maker) or Craft (Rope) checks to see how muck gold you make that week (half your check). So even if you can make 48,000 gold worth of rope doesn't mean you can sell it all.Well, by RAW, you can sell items for half of what they cost:
Selling Treasure
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
Now, the DM might put his foot down, but ships use a LOOOOT of rope. And rope is used elsewhere as well. In a large port city I think you should be fine. Maybe not every day, but certainly they'd buy lots of rope for cheap.
That's the RAW for treasure. But for selling items in a business, the RAW clearly states that you have to use either profession skills or craft skills to run a business. In Ultimate Campaign, they even talk about this is regards to selling magic items as a business. Now, you can get plenty of bonuses from both your rooms and your teams, as well as getting a +10 on your roll when you are hands on with running a business. And there's always events that can pop up where somebody might need a s&$# ton of rope.