In a game I'm working on, there's a player playing a Thanatotic Titan (yes, very high powered game), but we disagree on how their Change Shape ability would work. According to me, changing into a medium creature would adjust their strength, dexterity and constitution and other negative/positive effects as per the Space, Reach, & Threatened Area Tables. According to them, they keep ability scores as they are, but lose the penalty to attack, AC, fly and stealth.
Which one is right? If either is. Help, please! Even better if anyone can point me towards an official ruling on this.
Check the core rule book, magic chapter, polymorpgh section. There is a table that shows how the attributes change. Then check the change shape monster ability. Since the ability references the general rule on polymorph, and provides a specific clear exception to the general rule for creatures other than things like werewolves, your player is correct. Ability scores do not change. You would still apply size modifiers though: ac, attk, cmd, cmb, fly, stealth
I tried to show that to them as an explanation, but they complately denied it and said that this following text there justified them not being changed:
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the
size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class,
attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill
modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this
change unless noted by the spell.
Okay, second reply while typing, so already have two different opinions on this and I have no idea what to think still >.< It just seems super weird to me, because if their ability scores do not get adjusted for their size, there would be practically no reason to ever want to be in their natural form, because they get so many penalties. Would spend all their time as small creatures and use their insane strength to make up for smaller strength weapons easily, yet have much better defenses and get even more bonus to attacks.
The reason for being in their natural form most of the time would be that they actually like being in their natural form. Especially considering Thanatotic Titans consider themselves worthy of worship. Flavor-wise, they would have little reason to ever use their change shape ability, other than as part of forming a new cult centered on worshipping them :)
(as an aside, the basic change shape ability also says the creature can't take on a form more than one size category larger or smaller than itself, which would make the titan's change shape ability worthless, as well as those of older dragons!)
Would you then say that they keep their penalties to attack and AC as well? Or would they just straight up get a +8 boost to them? I really don't think it makes any sense at all to not adjust them fore size. What I see in both the text on polymorph effects and Change Shape is that Change Shape doesn't give you the individual spell bonuses, like the +2 Strength from being medium with Alter Shape, or the +6 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution from Giant Form. Would still gain the other listed abilities, like low light vision or such.
Ace, not really about flavour here. She's using it simply to become way stronger in combat.
There are, by the way, a lot of reasons to stay in natural form:
The Titan's speed will likely be greatly reduced in humanoid form (as the speed changes to match the new form), it loses its claw attacks, it loses darkvision (but could get a lesser version, if the new form has darkvision), and it loses the trample special attack as well as any other (Ex) or (Su) abilities you deem as dependent on its original form.
Edit 1: Plus the battleaxe will be reduced to the new size as well, which also greatly reduces its damage dice, which is particularly worth nothing due to its Greater Vital Strike feat.
Edit 2: By the way, if the power level of the campaign is such that your PCs are CR 22+ creatures, I don't think a +8 to attacks and AC is really going to be that important.
Edit 3: Oh yes, and the reach also changes to match the new size. Losing the 30 ft reach might be the biggest reduction in combat ability for being in small/medium form.
Actually, those +8 bonuses are hugely important as we noticed in try-out fights. For someone that could only hit them on 19+, a 10% hit rate, would be changed to 11+, being 50%. Same thing with the hitting others. Losing reach can be bad, sure, but it doesn't seem to affect that much at all as is.
But either way, they do actually not adjust their ability scores at all when becoming a smaller size, yet losing all penalties? That's...completely bonkers.
I believe the "does not adjust scores" is for the spells like alter self and such that give you bonuses for changing shape.
Also, there are several creatures in the bestiary that break the "no more than one size lower or higher than your base form", like halfling weretigers and many imperial dragons. In fact, in APs I see them breaking that rule enough times where I wonder why it's even in there? So I just ignore it. Too limiting, especially since many of the beast shape spells ignore this anyways. If Change Shape is supposed to work like the spells they are mimicking, then changing your size shouldn't be an issue. And that issue is covered in the polymorph section of the magic rules.
I think it's possible that the wording is supposed to mean that creatures using change shape don't get the ability score bonuses/penalties of the specific spell used (the "+2 STR" or "+2 DEX" of alter self, for instance), but that they would still apply the ability score modifiers for being of a different size than small/medium.
As it stands, though, it would be a houserule to do it that way.
Oh, and since you are the GM, and you're the one allowing the race in the first place, you could certainly apply reasonable limitations. If you wouldn't have kept the Titan's ability scores if it changed shape as a monster, than you shouldn't let the PC Titan do so either.
I think it's possible that the wording is supposed to mean that creatures using change shape don't get the ability score bonuses/penalties of the specific spell used (the "+2 STR" or "+2 DEX" of alter self, for instance), but that they would still apply the ability score modifiers for being of a different size than small/medium.
As it stands, though, it would be a houserule to do it that way.
Oh, and since you are the GM, and you're the one allowing the race in the first place, you could certainly apply reasonable limitations. If you wouldn't have kept the Titan's ability scores if it changed shape as a monster, than you shouldn't let the PC Titan do so either.
I agree with the above. The table on the polymorph section would apply, but not the actual scores.
penalties are based on size alone.stats are not dependant on size.
What, its not right that bigger numbers dont start giving penalties for being awesome?
Stats kind of are dependent on size, because a creature being colossal gets +16 strength, -4 dexterity and +8 constitution just because of its size. Unless I've just completely lost the point of the size table. Also, I have absolutely no idea what you meant with your last sentence.
Edit: Okay, so guess it seems like my interpretation of things are wrong, or at least majority seems to disagree with it.