Ok. I've selected every race/class combo for my family group. I've even already finished the Tiefling Barbarian. (Just gotta actually write down a sheet and pick some traits.) So now I'm moving on to the next one - the Undine Ranger. I'm going to go with the archery combat style (mostly because it's one of only two that don't suck).
Now, I can get Precise Shot without needing Point-Blank Shot with the bonus feat. But I don't want to wait until level 6 to take Rapid Shot. And since that needs Point-Blank, I'll be going Point-Blank Shot at level 1, Precise Shot at level 2, and Rapid Shot at level 3. Manyshot and Shot on the Run can be the level 6 and 10 bonus feats.
I can't get Clustered Shots until level 7. So I'm thinking of taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 5 and get myself an Orc Hornbow. I can do a bit more damage with one. Or maybe take EWP at level 1 and move Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot back. (Leaving Precise Shot where it is at level 2.)
There's also Empty Quiver Style in case he gets into melee and can't get out of it. That would put Weapon Focus at level 9 and the style feat at 11. Unless I don't go with an Orc Hornbow at all and drop EWP. Which means I can take Weapon Focus at 5 and Empty Quiver Style at 9. After that, I've pretty much got every basic archery feat already. So it's either go into ranged maneuvers or Spring-Heeled Style. Although I would still need to take Dodge and Mobility for them despite not needing them for Shot on the Run itself.
Any thoughts?
You should be taking Point Blank Master at 6th level using your style feats, it causes you not to provoke AoO for firing your bow. After you get that, there is never a reason to switch to melee attacks (if your goal is to deal damage). So no point in Empty Quiver style, IMO.
My recommendation is to get an animal companion that can serve as a mount and ride it around making full attacks while maintaining mobility. You will need weapon focus earlier to be able to grab it, but it's very worth it.
I don't think Orc horn bow is worth it unless you find ways to consistently increase your size. Weapon damage dice are typically a very small part of your overall damage, so it's not worth investing feats into in my opinion.
Mounted archery where you're basically mounted artillery is my favorite way to play rangers!
Also bonus points if it's a water based campaign and you convince your GM to let you ride a giant seahorse, for funsies!
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I agree with Claxon, for most weapons, the weapon dice is a small portion of your damage, the bonus damage is far more important. Deadly Aim and weapon specialization (and greater WS) will do more for your damage output than a Hornbow will. Bu if you really care about dice damage, find a way to cast Gravity Bow. the Fighter's Focused Weapon also helps.
A Decently built fighter/archer should be dealing close to 100 damage per round by 11th level.
As for what feats you should pick up:
1) Point Blank Shot, only because tap dancing around this requirement with your Ranger style feats isn't as easy or great as it seems. You only get 3 of those feats that can ignore requirements by level 10, which is around where you want to target your build coming together.
2) Precise Shot
3) Rapid Shot
4) Deadly Aim
5) Weapon focus (required for...)
6) Point Blank Master (level 6 style feat).
7) Many Shot
8) Improved Precise Shot
That's not a list of when you should pick those feats up, just a list (not even necessarily in order).
Lets see if I can put it to levels:
1) Point Blank Shot
2) Rapid Shot
3) Precise Shot
5) Weapon Focus (longbow)
6) Point Blank Master
7) Deadly Aim
9) Many Shot
10) Improved Precise Shot
I forgot how much not being Human for the extra feat hurts
If you're okay with playing the mounted turret and you can ride your mount in most combats without your GM making it an issue you could do:
1) PBS
2) Rapid Shot
3) Precise Shot
5) Deadly Aim
6) Many Shot
7) Weapon Focus
9) Boon Companion
10) Point Blank Master
11) Improved Precise Shot
It's important to remember that those feats listed at each level for combat style feats represent additional feats you can take, not that you're restricted to only those feats.
At level 11 both builds will play very similarly.
But the first build can hang out in melee and wield their bow without trouble starting at level 6.
The second build gets more of the damage helper feats in early and will rely on the mount to keep them out of danger and moved into position to maximize attacks. It will deal more damage than the first one, because of when feats are selected (until the other catches up).
Ok, so no orc hornbow. Though being a medium character means I'm even more restricted on animal companion since I would need a large one. (Why are druid and hunter the only pet classes that get full access to the list?)
What is Weapon Focus required for? You mention that I need it to grab something but don't say what the something is for.
Ok, so no orc hornbow. Though being a medium character means I'm even more restricted on animal companion since I would need a large one. (Why are druid and hunter the only pet classes that get full access to the list?)
What is Weapon Focus required for? You mention that I need it to grab something but don't say what the something is for.
Weapon focus is a requirement for Point Blank Master, the feat that lets you fire your bow without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. It's the reason why you don't need to worry about having a backup melee weapon or the Empty Quiver Style feat line. However, unlike most Combat Style feats a ranger can take that lets you completely ignore prerequisites, you still need weapon focus for this one.
And yeah, the orc hornbow just isn't enough of a boost to bother worrying about by spending your feats on it (as a Ranger). Maybe at higher levels you could, but still not really worth it.
As for being restricted on animal companion. Ranger has access to a restricted list, but my personal experience has been that you can get GMs to allow for thematic animal companions if they don't look to be more powerful than other options. And its not a mount class feature (as cavalier), so you're not restricted to things you can ride at level 1.
Other than a mildly convenient bonus to Dexterity and Wisdom, I am just not seeing the connection between Undine and Ranger... no race-specific archetypes, no special Favored Class Bonus, I don't even see any special Animal Companion options or spells available or clever weapon proficiencies that play well with Ranger Combat Style feats... don't even have an easy way to get a bite attack for Noxious Bite shenanigans.
Why an Undine Ranger?
Other than a mildly convenient bonus to Dexterity and Wisdom, I am just not seeing the connection between Undine and Ranger... no race-specific archetypes, no special Favored Class Bonus, I don't even see any special Animal Companion options or spells available or clever weapon proficiencies that play well with Ranger Combat Style feats... don't even have an easy way to get a bite attack for Noxious Bite shenanigans.
Why an Undine Ranger?
Not that I have the answer, but seems like something they just want to do.
I made an Undine Ranger of Besmara for the Pirate AP (Skull & Shackles) and it was thematic for that. And being able to breathe underwater came in handy.
Outside of reasons like that, I can imagine the answer being "because they want to".
Heather 540 had mentioned in another thread that these combinations were based on traits and abilities that seemed to match each class, so I was wondering what was seen that made Undine a fit for Ranger.
Mostly just the boost to dex and wis. Undines also have a str penalty so I thought it'd be best to make them one of the ranged attackers. I'm doing the same for the Sylph. Frail little air-baby is staying nice and far away from danger by using a bow.
As for the animal companion, yeah I can give it Boon Companion to level it up, but I'm still not going to be getting on the back of a falcon. I hope that I can convince the GM to let me use something a bit more fun than a horse. Like a grizzly or giant owl.
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Mostly just the boost to dex and wis. Undines also have a str penalty so I thought it'd be best to make them one of the ranged attackers. I'm doing the same for the Sylph. Frail little air-baby is staying nice and far away from danger by using a bow.
As for the animal companion, yeah I can give it Boon Companion to level it up, but I'm still not going to be getting on the back of a falcon. I hope that I can convince the GM to let me use something a bit more fun than a horse. Like a grizzly or giant owl.
take the monstrous companion feat for a griffon or hippogriff
Just be a Hooded Champion-Sky Stalker Ranger... you get the Hippogriff for "free", and you get Panache/Deeds with your bow.
Dead Aim (Ex): At 1st level, the hooded champion’s can spend 1 panache point when making a single ranged attack (not a full attack) with a bow to make a ranged touch attack instead. The target must be in the bow’s first range increment.
Hippogriff Companion
At 2nd level, a sky stalker adds Monstrous Mount to the list of bonus feats made available to him by his chosen combat style, regardless of the style chosen. He can only use this feat to select a hippogriff mount. If he does so, he treats his ranger level – 1 as his effective druid level. A stalker who takes this option does not gain the hunter’s bond class feature at 4th level.
At 3rd level, the hooded champion gains the swashbuckler’s kip-up deed as well as the following deed.
Hooded Champion’s Initiative (Ex): At 3rd level, while the hooded champion has at least 1 panache point, he gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. In addition, if he has the Quick Draw feat, his hands are free and unrestrained, and his weapon isn’t hidden, he can draw a single bow as part of the initiative check.
At 6th level, a sky stalker adds Monstrous Mount Mastery to the list of available bonus feats granted by his chosen combat style. If he takes this feat as his 6th-level combat style bonus feat, note that he must wait until 8th level before he meets the effective druid level prerequisite to utilize his mount’s mastery abilities.
Hippogriff Companion Statistics
Starting Statistics
Size Large; Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average; unable to carry a rider while flying); AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite 1d6; Ability Scores Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 9; Special Qualities darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent.
4th-Level Advancement
Speed fly 100 ft. (average; unable to carry a rider while flying); Attack bite 1d6, 2 claws 1d4; Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2.
Mastery (7th level)
The hippogriff can carry a rider while flying, but reduces its fly speed by half while doing so.
Mostly just the boost to dex and wis. Undines also have a str penalty so I thought it'd be best to make them one of the ranged attackers. I'm doing the same for the Sylph. Frail little air-baby is staying nice and far away from danger by using a bow.
As for the animal companion, yeah I can give it Boon Companion to level it up, but I'm still not going to be getting on the back of a falcon. I hope that I can convince the GM to let me use something a bit more fun than a horse. Like a grizzly or giant owl.
I realize it's not very fun or interesting, but a horse is a great companion for this style of play. They're fast enough to get you around the field, and wont cause any extra attention from an RP perspective.
That said, the Sky Stalker Archetype is perfect and gets you a mount which will eventually fly, if that's what you're really after. It can't fly until character level 8th though, and I would replace Boon Companion with the Monstrous Mount Mastery feat...
Edit: Just realized you have to sink two feats in order to get this flying mount. It's worth it eventually, but I'd honestly still prioritize all the archery feats over them. Ask your GM if they're amenable to animals that grow to large size that aren't on the list for Rangers.
I know I had a ranger archer of Erastil and my GM approved the Megaloceros (Giant Elk) because it was thematic and not particularly better than a horse at being a mobile base for an archery turret.
The main point of the mount is to move you around the battlefield for better positioning while still allowing you to take a full attack. If you're forced to move for any reason as an archer, your damage is usually on the laughable side. The mount resolves that pretty well, as long as you're not fighting inside a building.
If you were a small character it still would, because your mount would only be medium. But that wouldn't be an Undine Ranger anymore.
Those are fair points. I'll think about the hippogriff.
Edit: I'm not finding any info for a Sky Stalker Ranger on AoN. Would it be another name there?
Edit edit: Never mind, I found it. It's called Sable Company Marine on AoN.
Those are fair points. I'll think about the hippogriff.
Edit: I'm not finding any info for a Sky Stalker Ranger on AoN. Would it be another name there?
Edit edit: Never mind, I found it. It's called Sable Company Marine on AoN.
Yeah, people often use the names that are listed on D20pfsrd which can't use proper names from Golarion specific stuff.
Ok. If I want to ride around on my animal companion and shoot my bow, then I need Mounted Archery. I need Mounted Combat for that. Otherwise I'll be taking a penalty.
If I go with a horse, then I can take Mounted Combat at level 3 (Since I don't actually need a mount for Mounted Combat, lol) and the next one at 5. So it would look like this:
1: PBS
2: Precise Shot
3: Mounted Combat
5: Mounted Archery
6: Rapid Shot
7: Boon Companion
9: Manyshot
10: Improved Precise Shot
11: Clustered Shots
If I go with the hippogriff route, I'd need to move things around a bit. That could look like this:
1: PBS
2: Precise Shot
3: Deadly Aim
5: Mounted Combat
6: Monstrous Mount
7: Mounted Archery
9: Monstrous Mount Mastery
10: Rapid Shot
11: Manyshots
13: Clustered Shots
And apparently the original version of the archetype is different from what's on AoN. It's weird. I can use the first build if the GM allows me to use that version.
Ok. If I want to ride around on my animal companion and shoot my bow, then I need Mounted Archery. I need Mounted Combat for that. Otherwise I'll be taking a penalty.
If I go with a horse, then I can take Mounted Combat at level 3 (Since I don't actually need a mount for Mounted Combat, lol) and the next one at 5. So it would look like this:
1: PBS
2: Precise Shot
3: Mounted Combat
5: Mounted Archery
6: Rapid Shot
7: Boon Companion
9: Manyshot
10: Improved Precise Shot
11: Clustered ShotsIf I go with the hippogriff route, I'd need to move things around a bit. That could look like this:
1: PBS
2: Precise Shot
3: Deadly Aim
5: Mounted Combat
6: Monstrous Mount
7: Mounted Archery
9: Monstrous Mount Mastery
10: Rapid Shot
11: Manyshots
13: Clustered ShotsAnd apparently the original version of the archetype is different from what's on AoN. It's weird. I can use the first build if the GM allows me to use that version.
You don't need the mounted archery feat or mounted combat feats.
Depending on your mount, it will have somewhere between a 40ft and 60ft movement speed. Your mount can move up to it's speed without causing you to take any penalty to your attack rolls. If it would move twice (exceeding it's normal speed by using both it's Move and Standard actions to move) then you take a penalty to your attack rolls. In my experience that happens so rarely that you need to move twice that if it does it's better to just take the penalty to your attacks. You're not going to use the feat enough to justify it.
As for mounted combat, while it's nice to be able to negate an attack against your mount it's also unnecessary. The goal is to keep you and your mount away from the enemy and not taking hits. Mounted Combat is nice to have, but lower priority than any of your archery feats. If you want to take it, I would wait until after level 10 to do so.
And if you take the Sable Marine Company archetype you don't need Boon Companion. However you do have to take the monstrous companion and mastery feats. But only if your set on having a hippogriff. And I still would focus on the archery feats above the mount stuff.
The character is first and foremost an archer. The mount is a convenient way to move and not spend actions doing so.
If the GM spends actions taking out your mount, it does reduce your ability to be mobile and out of reach of enemies, but I would still advise you to focus on your archery feats. In order to be at peak effectiveness you really need:
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Deadly Aim
Improved Precise Shot
Everything else is just helping you gets to those (for archery feats).
Point Blank Master is a nice QOL (Quality of Life) to allow you to be near an enemy and not really be worried about it.
Ok.
So if you wanted the Hippogriff (and early) the following would be my recommendation (an amendment to my earlier list):
1) PBS
2) Rapid Shot Monstrous Mount
3) Precise Shot Rapid Shot
5) Deadly Aim
6) Many Shot
7) Weapon Focus
9) Boon Companion Monstrous Mount Mastery
10) Point Blank Master
11) Improved Precise Shot
Edit: Sorry, need to finish later
If I don't need to go with the Mounted Archery line, then I can go like this:
1: PBS
2: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
6: Monstrous Mount
7: Weapon Focus
9: Monstrous Mount Mastery
10: Point Blank Master
11: Clustered Shots
13: Improved Precise Shot
And if my GM allows for a Giant Owl from the start, then I can move everything up since I won't need the Monstrous line and stick Boon Companion in there somewhere.
If I don't need to go with the Mounted Archery line, then I can go like this:
1: PBS
2: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
6: Monstrous Mount
7: Weapon Focus
9: Monstrous Mount Mastery
10: Point Blank Master
11: Clustered Shots
13: Improved Precise ShotAnd if my GM allows for a Giant Owl from the start, then I can move everything up since I won't need the Monstrous line and stick Boon Companion in there somewhere.
I would sub Manyshot for Clustered Shots at level 11, and move that to level 15 (behind Improved Precise Shot).
I wish I could see a way to work in Manyshot sooner, but if you don't pick up Point Blank Master at 10 you have to wait until 14, and many characters don't even make it that long.
This sort of reasoning is exactly why you see so many builds recommend human because an extra feat may seem boring, until you look at a build that has so many feats that are really critical to the play style.
Still,
I agree, I'd move Point Blank Master to a later level, or drop it altogether. We seldom have an archer get into a position where he is threatened, and if he is, either his AC is high enough to handle it, or a simple 5' step gets him out of it and he can still make a full round attack.
TxSam, my personal belief is level 10 is where you want Point Blank Master. If you don't take it then, the next opportunity is level 14 because Ranger's only qualify to take it using their Combat Style feats.
My experience is that campaigns rarely last that long.
Personally, I've played this sort of character build before and I didn't try for the monstrous mount and instead I used this build I suggested earlier:
1) PBS
2) Rapid Shot
3) Precise Shot
5) Deadly Aim
6) Many Shot
7) Weapon Focus
9) Boon Companion
10) Point Blank Master
11) Improved Precise Shot
Pick up whatever mount your GM will allow. You're honestly only after the mount for action economy (free movement) and speed (mounts are typically much faster than you). I get that flying mounts are attractive, but hard to fit in all the feats you'd really like.
And point blank master is still potentially relevant with a flying mount because not all encounters will happen outdoors or in a space where your mount can fly you out of range of melee attacks.
But I suppose it is a trade off. If one's heart is really set on it you could ignore Weapon Focus and Point Blank Master completely, in favor of Monstrous Mount and Mastery.
our campaigns all go level 1-20, so my experiences may have some bias. Archers are one of my favorite classes, and like I said, I am very seldom in a situation where I am threatened for a potential AOO.
our campaigns all go level 1-20, so my experiences may have some bias. Archers are one of my favorite classes, and like I said, I am very seldom in a situation where I am threatened for a potential AOO.
I agree that's it's not all that often that you're going to be threatened while mounted because you're going to start off behind the front lines and have a faster move speed. However, we're making a presumption that Heather doesn't want to mix it up in melee range.
I enjoyed being able to get Point Blank Master to be able to mix it up in melee range (while using a bow) and having my mount provide flanking or generally harass enemies around us. It's just a layer of flexibility that is nice.
However, it's totally valid (if your intention is to stay far away from the enemy and not provide support to melee) to eschew both weapon focus and point blank master completely. Even more so if you have a flying mount as it becomes practically impossible to become surrounded or boxed in by enemies (whereas it's possible for ground bound characters).
Ultimately it's a question of exact intention with the character.
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I'd drop point blank master, and get many shot at 7, maybe grab improved precise shot at 6th
It depends on how the GM plays enemy combatants, really. If the GM has a habit of bum-rushing ranged characters and spellcasters, then Point Blank Master will save your life. If you are relatively safe to plink away every round, then the extra damages offered by Manyshot could be nice. But, eventually, that 5' step backwards is not going to be enough to get out of reach of larger enemies or avoid AoO for firing whilst threatened. And, eventually, you will encounter enemies that will trip or grab you as that AoO for firing whilst threatened.
I love giving enemies Step Up and Strike, specifically for archers that don't invest in Point Blank Master. I am the GM that bum-rushes archers and spellcasters. Lol.
I'd drop point blank master, and get many shot at 7, maybe grab improved precise shot at 6thIt depends on how the GM plays enemy combatants, really. If the GM has a habit of bum-rushing ranged characters and spellcasters, then Point Blank Master will save your life. If you are relatively safe to plink away every round, then the extra damages offered by Manyshot could be nice. But, eventually, that 5' step backwards is not going to be enough to get out of reach of larger enemies or avoid AoO for firing whilst threatened. And, eventually, you will encounter enemies that will trip or grab you as that AoO for firing whilst threatened.
I love giving enemies Step Up and Strike, specifically for archers that don't invest in Point Blank Master. I am the GM that bum-rushes archers and spellcasters. Lol.
Agreed. My group it's gone both way depending on the GM. I've had some go after my archers, who were mounted and thus hard for the enemy to pin down. They could often get into range with a double move but not attack. And then I would move away (possibly eating an AoO for moving) and the full attack along the way. That enemy was kited around the battlefield do very little effectively so it worked quite well. If you're not mounted it plays out pretty different and you'll end up taking quite a few attacks and trading a single ranged attack vs a single melee attack is a losing proposition.
But some GMs just throw all the enemies at the front line and the spell casters and archers can stand 40 behind and rain down hell without a care in the world.
I'd drop point blank master, and get many shot at 7, maybe grab improved precise shot at 6thIt depends on how the GM plays enemy combatants, really. If the GM has a habit of bum-rushing ranged characters and spellcasters, then Point Blank Master will save your life. If you are relatively safe to plink away every round, then the extra damages offered by Manyshot could be nice. But, eventually, that 5' step backwards is not going to be enough to get out of reach of larger enemies or avoid AoO for firing whilst threatened. And, eventually, you will encounter enemies that will trip or grab you as that AoO for firing whilst threatened.
I love giving enemies Step Up and Strike, specifically for archers that don't invest in Point Blank Master. I am the GM that bum-rushes archers and spellcasters. Lol.
We play AP's, and aside from upping the CR to meet character level, we play them as written. Enemies, especially monsters, generally don't come with things like Step up and Strike, and Seldom have trip or grab built in. Usually the Party Tank bum-rushes the opponents, thus preventing the archer from being on the return side of AOOs. All of this combined is why things like Point Blank Master is a seldom used feat in our games. Of course it depends on the GM, but I personally hate GMs that metagame and build specific bad guys to counter the party's strengths, or to take advantage of their deficits.
It's a bad form if a GM does it to the whole party in a single combat, or does it the same player every combat, but I think it's fair game to invalidate a single players "go-to" tactic if it doesn't take much to accomplish.
Rushing past melee members of the party to get to spell casters or ranged attackers is a valid tactic, including do so even at the risk of an AoO. And while an NPC might not have the improved trip feat, against a ranged character or spellcaster they don't have to worry since they wont be able to make an AoO against the NPC. And it's very much a valid tactic to trip them if they move and provoke an AoO. And if they only 5ft step they haven't saved themselves from being wailed on except perhaps an extra AoO.
I would agree that going out of the way to give a lot of enemies Step Up and Step Up and Strike is too far, but there are often simple tactics a GM can employ to threaten characters that would prefer to stay at range.
Man, if enemies with Step Up and Strike is going a little too far, you would really hate my enemy archers specialized in Sunder. Lol.
I have enemies specifically designed to be an inconvenience... absolutely, yes I do. I don't metagame or pick on the same player every time... I simply have enemies that play with different tactics than most commonly encountered. There is a wide spectrum available, and I like to take advantage of little niche things that might, just might, slow down a party of semi-optimized murderhobos.
If the archers or spellcasters in the party blatantly refuse to adapt, then it might seem like I am picking on them... but I don't care, because, as the GM, I have been presenting these enemies/tactics from the start. Intelligent enemies in my worlds will close the distance [almost at all costs] with archers and spellcasters. My enemies will be up in your business from day one, so it is on you to modify your defensive strategies, or die.
I don't have to feel bad because someone is used to playing their type of character at a safe distance. Adapt or die. War is messy, and you don't always get to choose whether or not the enemy prioritizes you over someone else. You might have to get your pretty pink dress dirty every once in while. You DO have options, and you CAN use them... it's literally that easy. It's only a surprise the first time an enemy does it, after that it's just the way things are.
Adapt, or die. These enemies are built out of the same material available to the players... there's no surprises in there, nothing special... I'm not sorry for bum-rushing archers, I'm sorry for breaking your shiny things, I'm not sorry for killing your Familiars... Intelligent enemies will recognize what is important to you, and hit you where it hurts. Change your defensive strategies, or die.
I'm in a couple of living world groups, so there are multiple GMs and they each have their own style. My other archer doesn't tend to be rushed, though my gun user sometimes does. Of course, he needs to be closer to the front-line due to the smaller range increments.
I could always go something like this:
1: PBS
2: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Weapon Focus
6: Point Blank Master
7: Manyshot
9: Boon Companion
10: Improved Precise Shot
11: Clustered Shots
You're missing Deadly Aim, which is your single biggest damage adder via feat (it's like Power Attack for Bows).
I would still push out Clustered shots and use durable arrows of silver, adamantine, cold iron as needed. This assume your group is even aware of the ruling that the +X magic enhancement don't allow your arrows to bypass resistance. Clustered shots is a good feat, but you simply need so many it's hard to fit in.
I'm finally writing down all the sheets of this character and the siblings I have finished and realized I never picked any traits for him. What would be some good ones?