Quite a while back, I recall that Paizo mentioned that they like the concept of psionics/psychic powers, but dislike the power point implementation from 3.5E and its OGL successor for Pathfinder. An interesting discussion was raging on the topic at the time and we made suggestions - for example I recall suggesting using one of several ki-based/ki-related systems, or a power point system modified to be less prone to nova-ing or a number of other more exotic systems and other people made suggestions too. I think Paizo was, nevertheless, leaning towards a slot-based system with a Psionic/Psychic flavor.
Whereas I am not attached to the power point system, I would prefer a new mechanic for Psionics/Psychic Powers to make them different from Divine and Arcane magic. Truth be told, I would prefer Arcane and Divine magic were different from each other too (and that Nature magic was separate, rather than part of Divine and also unique), but that ship has sailed, so at least Psychic Powers/Psionics could be different. However, even slot-based Psionics/Psychic Power would be interesting if the classes were made distinct enough mechanically from existing classes (I have no doubt they would have distinct enough flavor, but mechanics in my mind needs to support flavor.
In any case, I have not been active on these boards for a while and just want to enquire about the current state of the debate and whether there is something in the works yet.
I agree with wanting a different system for Psionics. I don't mind the magic system of PF or 3.5, but I like having a different option. I never got a chance to try out the power point system, but loved the idea. Making psionics effectively the same as the magic system would just make it seem redundant and pointless since most of the abilities already simulated spells.
But I'd rather have a non-3rd Party Psychic Warrior than not!
To my knowledge there isn't an official psionics in the works. I've been told Dreamscarred Press's Psionics work really well though. Personally, I like power points and augmenting powers more than vancian.
Thanks for the responses. It is a bit unfortunate that nothing appears to be in the works at Paizo yet, but the Dreamscarred stuff is indeed good.
I once worked on an alternate spellcasting system for Pathfinder based loosely on the way it work in Shadowrun. Caster will have a limited number of generic power/spells. All spells/power are known to the caster from the beginning. The PC may invest power point into each power/spells. In order to cast/use a power, the character need to select a power level which will affect damage, range, target, etc. After each use of power/spell cast, the character must roll a save against not yet determined DC. If he fails, he suffers from drain (non lethal damage if power level < or = to # of power points it the power used, or lethal damage if power level > # of power point in the power used)
Powers and spells still need to be listed.
This is still a big work in progress and I haven't been able to work on it for a while, any good idea are welcomed and I don't mind if someone else take over the idea :)
James Jacobs (Creative Director) has stated several times that he's prefer psychic magic to use a systen that's fundamentally the same as existing divine and arcane spellcasting classes.
For example, see this post on the "Ask James Jacobs" thread.
The lack of defined psychic magic (outside of monsters with psychic spell-like and supernatural abilities) is one reason that they haven't developed the area of Vudra-- their Ancient India analogue.
That said, I don't know how close Paizo is from releasing official rules for psychic magic.
I'd prefer a similar system to Vancian, with maybe some fluff, spell list, and minor mechanics changes to differentiate it. I'd rather magic be codified for simplicity's sake and ease of learning them. And to be honest, while I like psionics, I never thought that it was special enough to warrant a completely new rules system from other magic. So I hope to see them do Vancian style with psychic magic. I'd hope they use a different name though, because psychic magic doesn't have a good ring to it.
Maybe they could base it off of words of power.
So I hope to see them do Vancian style with psychic magic. I'd hope they use a different name though, because psychic magic doesn't have a good ring to it.
I hate to be that guy, but wouldn't they just use the term "Psionics"?
Also I would like to see Paizo's take on Psionics. As much as I like the Dreamscarred press stuff it is nice to see first party support for such things.
There was a 3.5 OGL book that had a Psychic class. The powers were feat and skill based. Take psychic feats to get a group of powers, and use skill rolls to use them. You would take nonlethal damage when using a power. Was a very unique and fun way to play a psionic character.
So I hope to see them do Vancian style with psychic magic. I'd hope they use a different name though, because psychic magic doesn't have a good ring to it.I hate to be that guy, but wouldn't they just use the term "Psionics"?
Also I would like to see Paizo's take on Psionics. As much as I like the Dreamscarred press stuff it is nice to see first party support for such things.
They've already said it'll be called something else, so there won't be any expectations of it being like 3.5's psionics.
I don't really mind the name they chose: psionics/psychic power/whatever. I am more concerned about how they are going to mechanically differentiate it from arcane and divine magic if they decide to use a slot-based, as it seems they will. I am one of those people who likes flavor, but likes it to be supported by specific mechanics...
This would not be an issue if arcane and divine magic didn't cover pretty much all the bases already. The two are somewhat differentiated, though I would prefer greater differences still, but together they already include the types of spells/powers that psionics/psychic power should be dealing with (e.g. domination, psychometabolic-like stuff, etc.). A single mechanical system would work great, if the spells/power/prayers were divided among the various classes of magic/psionics, thus differentiating them in that manner.
Having said that, it is possible that they might find a niche for psychic powers/psionics yet. If I were to do it within the slot-based system, I would expand the scope of mental powers, telekinetic-like powers, etc. - perhaps there may be enough there that wizards and clerics don't have yet to make psionics work as different enough. Of course, in some sense, it would be nice to simply remove some schools from wizards and clerics (enchantment, to be sure) and give it to the new source of power, but for backward compatibility reasons and to ensure that people don't have to use psionics, it won't be done,
They've already said it'll be called something else, so there won't be any expectations of it being like 3.5's psionics.So I hope to see them do Vancian style with psychic magic. I'd hope they use a different name though, because psychic magic doesn't have a good ring to it.I hate to be that guy, but wouldn't they just use the term "Psionics"?
Also I would like to see Paizo's take on Psionics. As much as I like the Dreamscarred press stuff it is nice to see first party support for such things.
Well, the name is not really crucial to me. ;)
I've been in a number of these debates, and what JJ has said so far I can sum up as follows: Paizo don't want to use the 3.5 model, because it requires too much explanation to fit into an adventure path (and that's basically it, they have no preference for/against power points otherwise). Besides, DSP have done a great job, why duplicate the work? So they will use something more akin to the Vancian system simply for convenience.
This solves too problems:
1) Many psionics-lovers love the power point system, and use DSPs product for it. If they create 'psionics' without it, these players will likely not be happy with the product. By calling it something different they give players more choice.
2) Those that do not like the PP system won't care what their psychic magic system is called, they'll just be glad of a magic system that covers the psychic angle.
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Keep Calm and Dreamscarred Press.
Personally, I think that making psionics into just another Vancian magic system kills a lot of their appeal. One of the main things folks liked about psionics was that they were different from the norm. Bumping psions to Vancian casting pretty much just makes them wizard/sorceror archetypes with slightly different fluff.
If clerics and druids can be different from wizards and sorcerers while still having Vancian, then I'm sure one can make psionics different enough under Vancian. To me, at least, psionics isn't married to point system. I care more about the fluff and the minor differences.
If clerics and druids can be different from wizards and sorcerers while still having Vancian, then I'm sure one can make psionics different enough under Vancian. To me, at least, psionics isn't married to point system. I care more about the fluff and the minor differences.
Well, the thing is that its not much of a difference. I could take labels off some spells and call it psionics that way. I don't see divine as being very different from arcane, though there are some big things, there is plenty of overlap.
Meanwhile, people who are hungry for a different or new system would appreciate some larger differences. Vancian is far from perfect, and not everyone loves it. Not that psionics is perfect, but saying one system for one game even if another is perfectly viable isn't always the best way to go.
Though we have dreamscarred press and no idea what Psychic magic is even supposed to be, so WMG I guess?
If clerics and druids can be different from wizards and sorcerers while still having Vancian, then I'm sure one can make psionics different enough under Vancian. To me, at least, psionics isn't married to point system. I care more about the fluff and the minor differences.Well, the thing is that its not much of a difference. I could take labels off some spells and call it psionics that way. I don't see divine as being very different from arcane, though there are some big things, there is plenty of overlap.
Meanwhile, people who are hungry for a different or new system would appreciate some larger differences. Vancian is far from perfect, and not everyone loves it. Not that psionics is perfect, but saying one system for one game even if another is perfectly viable isn't always the best way to go.
Though we have dreamscarred press and no idea what Psychic magic is even supposed to be, so WMG I guess?
Thing is, people who like the power point system already have what they want with DSP. For those of us that prefer a Vancian psionics, we'd want to see what Paizo has in store. Especially since many of us do not like the power point system and an answer like "Well don't play psionics" isn't good enough.
And divine is different enough from arcane to make it flavorful, without having to learn a completely new system of magic. That's one reason I never liked power points. I saw no reason to specifically make it different and felt it make learning magic classes more difficult since now, you have to deal with two completely different ways of magic and handling magic resources. I'd rather have fluff differences and enough mechanical differences to feel different while still remaining familiar to those that already play arcane and divine mages. It's simple on those learning the game and on the DM running the game. That way, a player can just say "Oh hey, this is like a cleric but I can use Ki points to affect my spells!" or whatever Paizo does to make psionics feel different. It's why if I ever ran a game with DSP psionics, I'd have all the magic classes be power point or all be Vancian, rather than mixes of the two.
And don't get me started on games that don't have magic transparency. That was... not a fun game for me. I'm glad DSP's default is magic transparency. My thing is that I love the fluff of psychic powers, but I don't think that the fluff is special enough to require a completely new spell system. I also don't think it should be superior to arcane and divine magic with a lack of magic transparency. It should be as powerful as arcane and divine magic and subject to the same (or similar) pitfalls and advantages that they are. When I've played the different arcane and divine classes, they felt different enough to me that I felt satisfied. Playing a druid was very different from playing a cleric, and I found my preference to bards and sorcerers over wizards and witches. But they all felt different with different playstyles, fluff, and mechanics while still retaining a familiar core mechanic. That's how it was easy for me to go from playing a druid to playing a bard, to playing a wizard, and then an oracle, etc. The learning curve for new abilities was small and I felt I could easily jump into playing my character. If I had tried playing a psionic (and I've tinkered with them), I'm much more hesitant since now, I have to learn a new rule set and it's a system I don't like.
That's why I want to see Paizo's Vancian psionics.
Thing is, people who like the power point system already have what they want with DSP. For those of us that prefer a Vancian psionics, we'd want to see what Paizo has in store.
I didn't say it had to specifically be power points. Besides, by the same logic we already have vancian, why get more vancian.
Thing is, people who like the power point system already have what they want with DSP. For those of us that prefer a Vancian psionics, we'd want to see what Paizo has in store.I didn't say it had to specifically be power points. Besides, by the same logic we already have vancian, why get more vancian.
Well that logic would make since if there was a Vancian psionics 3PP book out that was heavily supported with supplements and rule books. But unfortunately, there isn't. So, "that same logic" doesn't actually apply.
Q: Why should Paizo write their own version of psychic magic?
A: Because they won't use DSP's.
Q: Why will I buy a Paizo version of psychic magic?
A: Because they won't use DSP's rules in their products.
Q: Why do I care?
A: Because I would like some form of psychic powers and abilities in Paizo APs, Modules, and related products.
(Admittedly, I don't care for the term psychic magic, but I don't get hung up on names I can change or ignore with a whim)
I buy Paizo adventures for the same reason many people do. It saves me a lot of time and energy. Consequently I am heavily invested in Golarion, and I don't want to create a campaign setting as detailed as this one from scratch.
Now DSP's rules are wonderful, but they have one huge problem. My main RPG content provider doesn't use them. That makes them one big ol' book of homebrew.
Now I am quite competent and confident that I can use DSPs rules just fine. I'm not Jason Bulmahn, but I didn't just fall off a turnip truck either. I actually think DSP rules are well written and mechanically balanced and so forth. But that is NOT why I own all these Paizo books and adventures, just so I can rewrite them all. Its not a matter of taste or mental inability, its time management.
Also, as a freelancer, I like the style and favor of psychic powers and abilities and want to use them in Paizo Products I might be asked to write in the future. If they won't accept DSP rules, what good are they to me?
I regret any harshness in my tone, but this is the "elephant in the room" in this discussion. The fact that future Paizo products will not utilize DSP rules is very pertinent, to me anyway. Unless Paizo changes their mind, I will continue to ask for their version of psychic magic.
My Mind Mage was an attempt to create a Pathfinder psionic class that used spell slots instead of power points. It might be what you are looking for.
MA
I like the idea of them using Ki points. Ki fits better in a fantasy setting then mental energy and is probably closer traditional definition of psychics (the whole mental powers thing came about in the 20th century, before that psychic abilities were spiritual in nature).
Though I would imagine there are people who are dead set on the whole mental powers concept. Maybe introduce a system similar to the Gunslinger's Grit or the Magus' Arcane Pool (maybe a combination of both?).
Personally, I think that making psionics into just another Vancian magic system kills a lot of their appeal. One of the main things folks liked about psionics was that they were different from the norm. Bumping psions to Vancian casting pretty much just makes them wizard/sorceror archetypes with slightly different fluff.
That's my own feeling too, but others are free to disagree of course.
I agree with other posters that I'd like to see a Pathfinder treatment utilize the ki pool.
I'd even go further and say that I could potentially see not having any new classes at all, but having psionics/psychic magic be a sort of "overlay" like Mythic, that applies a ki pool and ki abilities to existing classes (possibly subbing out for existing class abilities, in certain cases) and essentially "boosts" the character through the power of the mind.
Thus, a psychic warrior is essentially a fighter with a ki pool and ki feats. A psion is essentially a wizard with a ki pool and ki boosts/feats that he applies to his spells (and possibly replaces his Arcane School with a "Psionic Discipline"). A wilder would be a sorcerer, etc.
Legendary Games' Way of Ki comes pretty close to what I would like to see.
Not sure if you would be interested in such a thing, but years ago I wrote this up, before anyone else made a Psychic Warrior
http://www.pathfinderdb.com/character-options/classes/full-class-list/1228- psychic-warrior
Maybe they could base it off of words of power.
If so, I hope they do a better job with it this time. Words of Power sounded cool but was overall a big letdown.
Personally, I think that making psionics into just another Vancian magic system kills a lot of their appeal. One of the main things folks liked about psionics was that they were different from the norm. Bumping psions to Vancian casting pretty much just makes them wizard/sorceror archetypes with slightly different fluff.That's my own feeling too, but others are free to disagree of course.
Agreed. Granted, I'm not overly fond of the Vancian magic system to begin with, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of other psionics fans felt the same. Given the history of 3.5 supplements, there definitely seemed to be a lot of players interested in non-Vancian casting options.
Even if the devs do manage to find a way to give the psionic classes a unique and interesting flavor while sticking to the Vancian system, psionics are going to lose a big chunk of their mechanical appeal. I like DSP's psionics rules because they open up some really cool character concepts that you just can't fulfill using standard Pathfinder rules. I also like them because I prefer psionic mechanics to Vancian ones.
Thing is, if Psionics in any way works like spells, it is not Psionics. My system turns them into Su's. there is no x/day system, which is balanced by much weaker than magic, much more powerful than a feat system. Psionics should be a list of spell-looking powers. It should be a category, such as Telekinetics, and abilities based on that/tho categories, in my opinion. hence my system...