| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've seen much discussion regarding the amount of space devoted to iconic PC stat blocks in Adventure Path issues. Many people find them to be useful and interesting, but others voice that it takes up valuable space that could otherwise be devoted to advertising or content. I think there is a solution.
Every iconic at level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, and 16. Free pdf download. Done. Forever.
We've talked about doing this for a long time and I think it's a great idea. So does everyone else here. The trick, though, is that while we're a crushed by our schedule as we are and frequently miss as many deadlines as we do adding more work to the staff is not an option. We've made some changes recently that seem to be helping with this and still have a job opening for a new developer, so I'm hoping that in the next few months here things will get easier around here and we'll have time for more fun bits like this. But until we get the products we sell under better control, free products are going to be few and far between.
That said, it's Tuesday and the design staff do a new design blog every Thursday. If you start making some noise in some of the RPG General forums you might be able to convince Hyrum and Jason and his crew to start tackling a statblock or an iconic every week. It would take a bit, but at the end that's something we could pretty easily compile.
But, one way or another, it's not going to happen unless folks say the want it, so if you do, it might be worth heading over to those forums and making some noise!
So, Paizo Community, if you want to see this accomplished, please make your voices heard. Even a simple '+1' would be great.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm really not wanting to see it done. The analysis involved afterward would be a pain to deal with, and would be something I personally couldn't avoid. Also every time a new product came out everyone would want to see the "new" stats for the iconics as well.
Then there would be the continuous harping about which iconic was better, what the various rules mean compared to how the iconic was put together, and how everyone could do a better job designing each iconic.
As such I rather they not do it.
We've talked about doing this for a long time and I think it's a great idea. So does everyone else here.
So, Paizo Community, if you want to see this accomplished, please make your voices heard. Even a simple '+1' would be great.
I don't think you really read the first post. I'm not asking for a vote on the subject, I'm asking for anyone who likes the idea to speak up. If you are worried about how the write-ups may change as new products become available, then wouldn't it be easier to amend them if they were in electronic format rather than printed permanently in an AP?
+1
IM GLAD THEY REMOVED THEM FROM THE APS
But I would like to have a set with them from some set levels like this thread is talking about
Back in my FR days, iconics were sometimes mentioned. Everyone had heard of Elminster and a few various rulers, but you weren't going to meet them in my campaign.
Plus one.
I think itd be a great addition. Lots of work, but once done it would be a great asset for iconics in campaigns, helping new players piece together classes.
Maybe this could be something the community generates and Team Paizo just rubber stamps.
There's a lot of people posting here who are great at building out characters. (Not me, but you know who you are.)
I could probably do a decent Seoni for the AP by levels. Heh.
The paladin I'd probably start as the undead slayer type.
==Aelryinth
Back in my FR days, iconics were sometimes mentioned. Everyone had heard of Elminster and a few various rulers, but you weren't going to meet them in my campaign.
Elminster isn't an Iconic, he's a campaign character and plot device. The iconics are there as examples of playable characters, not NPC's in their own right...you will never run across the Iconics in the campaign, they are the stand-ins for the PC's in the art and story. That's probably why you'll never see fiction about them, either.
==Aelryinth
|
I don't think you really read the first post. I'm not asking for a vote on the subject, I'm asking for anyone who likes the idea to speak up. If you are worried about how the write-ups may change as new products become available, then wouldn't it be easier to amend them if they were in electronic format rather than printed permanently in an AP?
As a DM I would find this as an invaluable tool for pre-stated NPCS.
It would save time and would provide a list of ready made, multi-ranged/leveled NPCs designed for adventuring (vs. most of the specific NPCs offered in the NPC guide and generic NPCs in the AGG). They could be allies or a detailed group of enemy adventures/mercenaries/killers. I have used four of the core (ftr, rog, wiz & clr) iconics at level 4 - then bumped them up to 5 and used them as a B-team of NPC allies for my group of players (8th approaching 9th level). Renamed them, added some gear = full adventuring party know as the Crimson Stars.
I would love this idea come to pass, and if it's a living doc all the better. I would also think it would be a great tool for new DMs to come in and look at fully stated PCs at a wide range of levels where can get some ideas about range of power, gear, etc. IMO a cool, free online aid.
Just my two domars on the subject!
+1
I'd like to see a sort of middle of the road collection of various PCs. By that I mean, effective in combat but not "fully optimized." I think it would provide a nice glimpse at what the designers believe is a baseline (in terms of PC design) to run through the adventure paths.
I can see where people might debate the characters and critique them....but if the discussion is enlightening and interesting, then I don't think it's a big deal.
As for new content...just bring out a new "pack" of PCs every now and then in addition to the pre-existing iconics. It's not that tough to design some decently made characters every now and then, and over time would be a nifty collection of NPCs to draw from in a rush. So long as power creep doesn't totally win the day, their won't be a HUGE need to update older iconics.
I don't think you really read the first post. I'm not asking for a vote on the subject, I'm asking for anyone who likes the idea to speak up. If you are worried about how the write-ups may change as new products become available, then wouldn't it be easier to amend them if they were in electronic format rather than printed permanently in an AP?
I don't care if he thought it was a great idea -- and you are setting up a false positive if you only want those that like the idea posting --
"I have so much support" without any nays being allowed is something a third world dictator does.
Besides just look at what the pre-gens in the GMG caused -- wide spread hate and discontent amoung the forums for "stereotypes", "Racism", and "very stupid builds" -- overall I would rather avoid more of that with the iconics.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, since the Managing Editor of Paizo Publishing thinks it is a good idea, and states that a significant number of other people within the organization agree, I suppose the fact that you don't care doesn't really matter. I'm just trying to drum up a little noise for community support. The pre-gens already exist within previously published APs, so really we are talking about converting them to a single downloadable PDF. Comparing my request to third-world dictators is silly.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, since the Managing Editor of Paizo Publishing thinks it is a good idea, and states that a significant number of other people within the organization agree, I suppose the fact that you don't care doesn't really matter. I'm just trying to drum up a little noise for community support. The pre-gens already exist within previously published APs, so really we are talking about converting them to a single downloadable PDF. Comparing my request to third-world dictators is silly.
Not at all, your request to have it is quite reasonable -- your methods are not. The quelling of resistance to an idea isn't so great.
Besides why would my opinion on the matter mean less than yours?
You're asking for it, I'm asking against it -- I might be in the minority but I'm going to let the company know that I for one am not looking for this sort of product so they know that I'm not interested in spending my money in this direction.
Now if they do it fine -- but that doesn't mean I cannot and somehow should not voice my disagreement with you.
The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter if "people in the organization" or the "managing editor" like the idea -- it's a matter of business -- if it's not good business then they won't do it regardless of the 'votes' for or against it.
In this case the company has publicly stated in the blog in the past that it doesn't like doing these sorts of things for many of the reasons I've already listed.
Does that mean it won't happen? No, but it also doesn't mean that just because I disagree with it happening I shouldn't have an opinion -- or that just because the request is reasonably (which it is) that you have the right/ability/responsibility to tell me to stop arguing against it.
Quite frankly doing so is rather obnoxious and lowers whatever opinion of you I had before as it shows close mindedness and an unwillingness to hear opposing opinions and arguments.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Quelling resistance? Opposing arguments? You've lost me. Did you even fully read the first post? We're not talking about whether they should interrupt their product line or push back a release date. You wouldn't be spending your money on it because he thought that a FREE download was a good idea. Please explain to me how in the world you are not being overbearing by opposing someone requesting the compilation of existing material into a single document without cost to you.
...it also doesn't mean that just because I disagree with it happening I shouldn't have an opinion -- or that just because the request is reasonably (which it is) that you have the right/ability/responsibility to tell me to stop arguing against it.
Quite frankly doing so is rather obnoxious and lowers whatever opinion of you I had before as it shows close mindedness and an unwillingness to hear opposing opinions and arguments.
Good grief people...could we not get our knickers in a twist in yet another thread?
Being politely asked not to pick a fight in this thread doesn't mean you're a poor, oppressed victim.
Jeesh.
*tips hat to bugleyman*
+1
I agreed with having them removed from the AP's but would love having them on PDF at the various levels (1-20 would be fantastic). As for whether people would argue about them, sure they will. this is the age of the internet and people who can post anonymously will argue anything. That should not be a reason to deprive many of a great resource.
Being politely asked not to pick a fight in this thread doesn't mean you're a poor, oppressed victim.
Jeesh.
That's probably the part that caused me to not let it drop in the first place -- I didn't feel it was polite -- and I don't see why I should clog up the boards with another thread when this one is quite able to handle the discussion and the vote of supports that it does or doesn't receive.
You wouldn't be spending your money on it because he thought that a FREE download was a good idea. Please explain to me how in the world you are not being overbearing by opposing someone requesting the compilation of existing material into a single document without cost to you.
Anytime a company produces material someone has to make that material -- say someone in product design -- and if the people are making free material for this request then that is time they are not spending on their other products.
Now would it take a long time?
Actually it quite probably would. In addition to the normal editing such a project would still require there would also be a need to make sure the rules are completely followed, to be completely sure the write ups are completely correct via the rules and the character backgrounds as they already exist. The last thing paizo would want to do is publish something about their iconic line that was incorrect or didn't have the rules right (screwing up the rules for your own system with your own iconic characters looks bad). Then there is the time it takes for updates when new material comes out, and the re-vetting process would have to be done again for the new material and to make sure everything still jives.
Also they might decide that in order to get the iconic characters done, and present them in a way that does pull from their current line up to include them in something like Kobold Quarterly, or as extra material in the back of an AP (like they have done before, or in place of the stories that are in the AP line) -- which would mean I wouldn't be getting content for a paid product in another area.
So it could quite possibly cause conflict with quality assurance for other products that I do pay for and content of a product that I do pay for.
We should also be clear that nothing is free -- the price is simply deferred into other products, and less time spent elsewhere. Which means somehow, somewhere, sometime, someone is going to pay for that free product.
Now I'll leave this here, since I really am not trying to troll -- however I did want to point out the bad taste your posts left (for the reasons I mentioned above) and how this supposed free product could come around to cost me.
You were rude, you were inconsiderate, and you are ironically asking me to politely bow out -- which I now will.
Insanity
Exactly what I was thinking.
Actually it quite probably would. In addition to the normal editing such a project would still require there would also be a need to make sure the rules are completely followed, to be completely sure the write ups are completely correct via the rules and the character backgrounds as they already exist. The last thing paizo would want to do is publish something about their iconic line that was incorrect or didn't have the rules right (screwing up the rules for your own system with your own iconic characters looks bad). Then there is the time it takes for updates when new material comes out, and the re-vetting process would have to be done again for the new material and to make sure everything still jives.
Out of curiosity, how is this any different from re publishing them in the back of every AP?
|
I don't think you really read the first post. I'm not asking for a vote on the subject, I'm asking for anyone who likes the idea to speak up. If you are worried about how the write-ups may change as new products become available, then wouldn't it be easier to amend them if they were in electronic format rather than printed permanently in an AP?
While the idea isn't bad "per se" Abraham spalding has some reason in protesting about the quoted part.
"I wan only the people that agree with me to speak" is flame bait in every internet forum and weaken your whole proposal.
General stats and levels for the iconic could be useful, but will cast them in stone, while keeping them more "fluid" allow them to be adapted to the module that will see them on the back cover and up to date to still evolving rules.
Especially for sorcerors like Seloni and the probable future iconic Oracle, with their limited selection of spells, giving a fixed set of know spells could be very limiting.
So my vote is in the undecided field so far. I haven't seen enough arguments pro or against to get to a conclusion.
@Diego Rossi: I can almost understand why someone might think that way. The only problem is that we are not talking about a situation where not being able to voice your opinion will have any significant impact on someone opposed to the idea. This isn't a win/lose situation. It's a win/nothing-happens-to-you situation. Similar to pushing 'Like' on Facebook, you can ignore the request if you do not want to support it.
You have a good point on keeping them fluid. Hopefully rulesets will not change so dramatically in the near future that we need to keep altering stat blocks, but there is always a chance. I think that keeping them in electronic format will go farther towards improving their adaptability compared to printing them on paper.
Also, for characters with limited spell selection or spells per day, rather than listing the spells they could have a small note stating how many spells they receive for that level along with a link to the appropriate spell list on the SRD. Thoughts?
|
|
Also, for characters with limited spell selection or spells per day, rather than listing the spells they could have a small note stating how many spells they receive for that level along with a link to the appropriate spell list on the SRD. Thoughts?
Still ambivalent.
On one side it would be the easy solution, on the other it will not give new players useful suggestions on a decent build.
The builds of Sorcerer with its bloodlines and the Oracle with its mysteries are heavily influenced by a choice you do at first level.
So there is a hard choice there: the iconic should have a fixed Bloodline/Mystery or not?
The spells can be adjusted after that. A good way would be to give them a set of already selected spells with some possible alternate selection for some of them.
I.e. Seoni is a a sorcerer with an arcane bloodline (as least in the products I have see), the developer start from there giving her widely useful spells and (maybe after the player community comments) add a list of suggested alternatives for specific terrains or locations.
To keep her iconic she never change her bloodline.
If it is wanted it is better to make a character with a different background and bloodline to present a different build.
The problem is that if you want to do something exhaustive enough you risk too have several iconic sorcerer/oracle against 1 iconic rogue or bard, maybe 2 different fighter builds and so on.
It would require both a lot of work and give a imprecise impressions of the game.
So it all depend on what is the aim:
- giving a "character history and development history" for the currently existing iconic characters?
- helping new players that want a quick start character?
- giving ready to use NPC to GMs?
After the aim of the product has been decide it is possible to evaluate what should be put in it and if it is worth producing.
|
I'd love to see it happen. Ideally it would eventually become a rather huge document, consisting of levels 1-20 of ALL of the iconics. If they do ever do so, I would just make one request...for levels 1-12, have them be PFS-legal. Past 12, it wouldn't really matter. One thing I wouldn't care about is the progression. It might actually be wiser to show some variety within the different versions/levels, even if that means switching bloodlines/patrons/specializations/etc.
I don't have a pony in this race, since I don't use APs and couldn't care less what's in them (other than not wanting core crunch in them that I can't get in another book that's pure core).
However, if your post says only respond if you like something, and it's aimed at Paizo staff to get them to do something, you can't say 'Only people who are for it respond please'.
You're basically asking for a one way straw pole vote. It's like going to the RNC convention and asking if people think Obama is a bad president, but please only respond if you're a registered republican. In other words, it's a useless pole, and nobody is going to pay any attention to it. If I were Paizo, and looked at this thread, I'd just skim the first 4-5 messages, see that dissenting views were ripped apart and told to go away, and avoid it like the plague.
@mdt:
I'm sure you are familiar with petitions, right? When someone comes to your door and asks if you are interested in signing your name in support of an initiative? You can either sign or decline. That's it. It is difficult to compare this to voting since we are not voting on anything. I'm asking for people to sign a petition. If someone wants to start their own petition, they can.
As for "ripping apart dissenting views", that person decided to be histrionic. People commented on how he spoke, not what he spoke. He was not thoughtful or reasonable in voicing himself and I was not the only one who thought so. If I were Paizo, I would realize that this thread indicates how much support there is for a compilation of pre-gens PC stat blocks, not whether or not I am accommodating people who cannot express themselves politely.
|
|
@mdt:
I'm sure you are familiar with petitions, right? When someone comes to your door and asks if you are interested in signing your name in support of an initiative? You can either sign or decline. That's it. It is difficult to compare this to voting since we are not voting on anything. I'm asking for people to sign a petition. If someone wants to start their own petition, they can.As for "ripping apart dissenting views", that person decided to be histrionic. People commented on how he spoke, not what he spoke. He was not thoughtful or reasonable in voicing himself and I was not the only one who thought so. If I were Paizo, I would realize that this thread indicates how much support there is for a compilation of pre-gens PC stat blocks, not whether or not I am accommodating people who cannot express themselves politely.
Pretty much this ^
I think they were just searching for any kind of interest, not even a yes or no, but if anyone was even wanting a FREE COMPILATION OF ALREADY EXISTING STAT BLOCKS. This isn't a stacked vote at a political conference, this is just a question.
When I read some of the negative responses to an inquiry about offering a FREE COMPILATION OF EXISTING STAT BLOCKS it makes me despair. This is not a zero sum game, presenting this material in a blog format (and a living pdf) will not delay or cancel Bestiary 3.
As far as the content, I have no concerns if one bloodline/build/etc is presented. The arguments presented against (at least so far) are 100% false dilemma. Her bloodline didn't matter when she (Seoni) was presented many, many times in modules and APs - so creating a crisis now is looking for harm where none was committed.
|
Honestly, the sooner the pregen Valeros vanishes off the face of the universe the better.
I guess that in 10 years we will still have people waving him around screaming "LOOK FAILZO FAILS @ BUILDS" or we will have people using him as a baseline for comparing builds and proving that gunslingers are OP or that sword and broad is borked.
Please, bad dream, be gone.
+1
I doubled the size of my group just by having the existing pregenerated PDFs printed out and on the table. I keep copies of all the level 1's on hand at all times, to help fill a new table; then when they hit level 2, I demand the player think up a bit of backstory, and copy the stat block into a full character sheet; it's a great introduction to the game.
I'd also like the middle and higher levels for reference as a GM; I've pretty much always been the only GM around, so I get nervous about handing out enough or too much treasure, or if my players are anywhere near a standard power curve (yes, rule #1, everyone is having fun, but keeping in line with the curve lets me use more preprinted material). Some classes (druid) I just don't like, so it's hard for me to imagine what they would want as reward. Having a set of sample characters near each level block would really help me as a GM design adventures and assign non-random rewards.
I would specifically request that all character decisions be made at each point; if someone needs a pregen, it's likely because they don't understand the options and choices yet, so it's OK to have them already decided. If the player doesn't like exactly what's on the pregen sheet...well, copy to a character sheet and work the math until they're happy. Along the same lines, I'd prefer non-optimized builds, and a little more emphasis on character traits (Harsk's teacup instead of stein, for example); this way, I wouldn't have to worry about rebalancing any purchased modules or APs, and my non-RPers could get an idea of what it means to start in on a character's actual character, instead of just statistics (although picking two character traits goes a long way).
And finally, to finish my wall-of-text, I can understand where the petition/vote argument is coming from...but he quoted a Paizo employee saying they are ready to dedicate resources to this, if there is support. Dissenting voices are the core of internet forum life, but honestly, guys, this is a petition. And I've signed it!
"LOOK FAILZO FAILS @ BUILDS"
Ha ha, jeez. Sometimes I kinda hate the internet.
I think they were just searching for any kind of interest, not even a yes or no, but if anyone was even wanting a FREE COMPILATION OF ALREADY EXISTING STAT BLOCKS. This isn't a stacked vote at a political conference, this is just a question.
Reality doesn't work that way. "Does anyone want us to punch all people with vowels in their name in the face? Anyone? Anyone? Come on, don't be shy." Abraham was making good points, especially regarding the fact that disagreement with premise should be as valuable as agreement is.
When I read some of the negative responses to an inquiry about offering a FREE COMPILATION OF EXISTING STAT BLOCKS it makes me despair. This is not a zero sum game, presenting this material in a blog format (and a living pdf) will not delay or cancel Bestiary 3.
The all-caps is cute. Trying to sell the idea... good stuff. But the rest of your paragraph... makes assumptions. You're assuming that the labour involved to make these statblocks can't and won't impact anything else. Still, that remains only one of the arguments against the premise. I may even have liked the idea at some point, but now I don't. I see the product as a waste of time, now and future. They also become potentially limiting. Having static pregens without any reference or use of future books is... kind of silly. Maintaining them is... more work. Again. Shrug.
As far as the content, I have no concerns if one bloodline/build/etc is presented. The arguments presented against (at least so far) are 100% false dilemma. Her bloodline didn't matter when she (Seoni) was presented many, many times in modules and APs - so creating a crisis now is looking for harm where none was committed.
What was done was done, yes. But it's not being done any more. For good reason. Now you're asking for it to be done again, and using the past as argument that it should be done?
Look, as far as opinions go, this isn't one I consider strong. I mean, if we were talking about asking Paizo to stop using artwork to save money and time, I'd strongly object. This... not so strong. But my opinion still matters.
You can't engage in a discussion on a discussion board and not entertain dissenting discussion. This isn't about votes, polls, or formal statistical analysis. It's about someone asking for X and I - for one - wish for not-X.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think they were just searching for any kind of interest, not even a yes or no, but if anyone was even wanting a FREE COMPILATION OF ALREADY EXISTING STAT BLOCKS. This isn't a stacked vote at a political conference, this is just a question.Reality doesn't work that way. "Does anyone want us to punch all people with vowels in their name in the face? Anyone? Anyone? Come on, don't be shy." Abraham was making good points, especially regarding the fact that disagreement with premise should be as valuable as agreement is.
Actually, reality does work that way - if you are sane.
Paraphrased
Pazio Employee - Hey folks, we were just wondering about putting together stats for every iconic at level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, and 16. Free pdf download. Done. Forever.
Paizo Poster- The discussion and analysis afterward would be too much to deal with....people would argue and then discuss the rules, and then argue some more
Paizo Employee- I wasn't really asking for a vote, I was just checking to see if there was any interest in a free...
Paizo Poster - I don't care if you think it's a good idea, and not accepting dissent is something a 3rd world dictator does. Also pre-gens spread discussions about racism and stereotypes.
Paizo Employee - Well, the Managing director likes the idea, as do others, I suppose that the fact that you don't care doesn't really matter - I’m just trying to drum up support to see if...
Paizo Poster – Dictator! And I am expressing my dissent that I won't buy this (free) product!
When I read some of the negative responses to an inquiry about offering a FREE COMPILATION OF EXISTING STAT BLOCKS it makes me despair. This is not a zero sum game, presenting this material in a blog format (and a living pdf) will not delay or cancel Bestiary 3.The all-caps is cute. Trying to sell the idea... good stuff. But the rest of your paragraph... makes assumptions. You're assuming that the labour involved to make these statblocks can't and won't impact anything else. Still, that remains only one of the arguments against the premise. I may even have liked the idea at some point, but now I don't. I see the product as a waste of time, now and future. They also become potentially limiting. Having static pregens without any reference or use of future books is... kind of silly. Maintaining them is... more work. Again. Shrug.
Maybe they can have a discussion with labour –new contracts and all, or maybe it can be done as labour of love?
Or not
I'm glad that you have quickly reversed yourself on liking/not liking the idea based on this thread. It reflects strength of conviction.
Also the part about "static pregens without any reference or use of future books" was already addressed - i'm sure you just glossed over it.
If you are worried about how the write-ups may change as new products become available, then wouldn't it be easier to amend them if they were in electronic format rather than printed permanently in an AP?
Sorta kills the "static" argument, YMMV though.
What was done was done, yes. But it's not being done any more. For good reason. Now you're asking for it to be done again, and using the past as argument that it should be done?As far as the content, I have no concerns if one bloodline/build/etc is presented. The arguments presented against (at least so far) are 100% false dilemma. Her bloodline didn't matter when she (Seoni) was presented many, many times in modules and APs - so creating a crisis now is looking for harm where none was committed.
The good reason is that have been printed to death and the company wants more advertising space. I'm not asking for it to be done again, they are offering - a FREE COMPILATION OF EXISTING STAT BLOCKS as a pdf available on their website. So people who are new to the game and didn't have a chance at seeing them get to see them, pressed DMs could use them as quick stats, etc, etc. I know the racism thing in RPGs is a really heavy issue, but I am willing to look past that for a FREE COMPILATION OF EXISTING STAT BLOCKS.
It's about someone asking for X and I - for one - wish for not-X.
Actually it it's moved beyond that, now instead of the thread just causing despair, it's now causing anguish and despair.
Good discussion and some good points...well, not really - but it has been very inciteful.
@Diego Rossi: I can almost understand why someone might think that way. The only problem is that we are not talking about a situation where not being able to voice your opinion will have any significant impact on someone opposed to the idea. This isn't a win/lose situation. It's a win/nothing-happens-to-you situation. Similar to pushing 'Like' on Facebook, you can ignore the request if you do not want to support it.
Actually, the impression I got from F. Wesley Schneider's post was that this this project would be taking out some/all of the content from the Thursday blogs while it was happening, so it doesn't seem like a "win/nothing-happens-to-you situation"
If it were put out there in open format, I'd likely volunteer to post a version of One of the iconics per Adventure Path, and level it as they go.
Get a couple others to handle the others, and if they could be gathered up and put into a PDF with the Iconic Art, that would be swell.
Might even do multiple versions: PF Core, PF+APG, and PF+APG+3.5 (Energize feat come in real handy in Carrion Crown)
And I'd optimize at least some, and some of my biases would show through (I'm big on Rings of Sustenance, for example). And yes, I'd increase bonuses in small increments, and not concentrate on big pricey things.
And Valeros would be built quite differently. Heh. I'll note one thing...because of Weapon Training, Valeros is as effective as a 3.5 Fighter with a much higher Str score.
==Aelryinth
Out of curiosity, how is this any different from re publishing them in the back of every AP?
Actually it quite probably would. In addition to the normal editing such a project would still require there would also be a need to make sure the rules are completely followed, to be completely sure the write ups are completely correct via the rules and the character backgrounds as they already exist. The last thing paizo would want to do is publish something about their iconic line that was incorrect or didn't have the rules right (screwing up the rules for your own system with your own iconic characters looks bad). Then there is the time it takes for updates when new material comes out, and the re-vetting process would have to be done again for the new material and to make sure everything still jives.
Only very little -- after all there is a reason they took them out of the APs. Because it was eating up space, time, and manpower that could have been better used for other things. Which is exactly my point.
Paraphrased
Pazio Employee - Hey folks, we were just wondering about putting together stats for every iconic at level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, and 16. Free pdf download. Done. Forever.
Paizo Poster- The discussion and analysis afterward would be too much to deal with....people would argue and then discuss the rules, and then argue some more
Paizo Employee- I wasn't really asking for a vote, I was just checking to see if there was any interest in a free...
Paizo Poster - I don't care if you think it's a good idea, and not accepting dissent is something a 3rd world dictator does. Also pre-gens spread discussions about racism and stereotypes.
Paizo Employee - Well, the Managing director likes the idea, as do others, I suppose that the fact that you don't care doesn't really matter - I’m just trying to drum up support to see if...
Paizo Poster – Dictator! And I am expressing my dissent that I won't buy this (free) product!
So um... how in the heck do you come to think that Tanner Neilsen is a paizo employee? Cause I'm not seeing it.
you will never run across the Iconics in the campaign, they are the stand-ins for the PC's in the art and story. That's probably why you'll never see fiction about them, either.
My players ran into some of the iconics.
The thing is that they're not exactly stand-ins for the PCs. They're standins for PC-type characters. Generic heroes, if you will - Connected to the campaign setting, but not to the stories of the APs. They are fit to be encountered wherever and whenever the GM needs some hero type that isn't strictly part of the story itself.
As for the original request:
I'm not against it per se, but I'd prefer this to be a low priority. I think there are many other things that should occupy Paizo's limited time first.
And if they do anything like it, it should be more than just a bunch of stats for the classes that happen to look exactly like the standard heroes they use for the illustration.
The stats should be done properly. I'm not talking about optimisation, I talk about stats that fit the iconics' backgrounds, and a natural progression in the stats as they progress from 1 to 20.
This seems a sensible idea. +1.
I'm for the idea. I'd download it and look it over.
|
|
So um... how in the heck do you come to think that Tanner Neilsen is a paizo employee? Cause I'm not seeing it.
1st poster - Hey folks, we were just wondering about putting together stats for every iconic at level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, and 16. Free pdf download. Done. Forever.
enraged poster- The discussion and analysis afterward would be too much to deal with....people would argue and then discuss the rules, and then argue some more1st poster - I wasn't really asking for a vote, I was just checking to see if there was any interest in a free...
enraged poster - I don't care if you think it's a good idea, and not accepting dissent is something a 3rd world dictator does. Also pre-gens spread discussions about racism and stereotypes and stuff.
1st poster - Well, the Managing director likes the idea, as do others, I suppose that the fact that you don't care doesn't really matter - I’m just trying to drum up support to see if...
enraged psychotic poster – Dictator! And I am expressing my dissent that I won't buy this (free) product! WAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fixed!
Yeah great way to misrepresent what I said and did.
Ok Aux, that's WAY off from what's actually been posted. I have no bone to pick here, because I'm rather ambivalent towards the entire idea.
However, if you reread the start of the thread, the OP asked for all to line up and +1 the thread. Abraham stated his point of view rather politely actually, that he was voting -1 for the request. The OP came back to say that he wasn't interested in hearing negative votes, as all he wanted was those to support his view. After that it started to get a bit more wordy on both sides.
It may not have been the idea, but Tanner really started the snark with his post stating that if you weren't for his idea, stop posting in the thread attitude. At least that's how it reads on my screen.
Maybe a step back, and a fresh look at from the top might be helpful.
|
|
Yeah great way to misrepresent what I said and did.
Look, I don't have a beef with you AB - you seem like a very helpful person and you have offered a ton of technical advice to other posters. So your help with other people here is appreciated - I'm sure of it.
The way the whole thing played out though - it just seemed like you went a little nutzo on Tanner.
He took his cue from Wesley Schneider to drum up support and not only did you drum down his idea you started throwing out some crazy stuff -3rd world despotism, arguing against it because the material would cause more arguments (as does every other bit of material Paizo puts out), racism, stereotypes, etc. He created the post to get some traction - guess what, if no one was interested there would be no responses. And he was not quelling your dissent, he was looking for interest. Not posting a response is a response, but on top of all of that you started attacking his character.
Just seemed excessive, yeah we get it - you don't want the iconics presented in a free format. The guy was trying to gauge support and you stomped on his head.
Just my view of things, I could be wrong though.
Creative Director
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
If this thread's any indication of the type of arguments and crankypantsness that putting up some iconic stat blocks might generate, that right there's a great reason for us not to do it.
Please leave the petty bickering and pointless arguments about what someone else may or may not have said at the door. Use this thread to lets us know if you'd be interested in seeing us post sample builds for the iconics somewhere online, please.
To try to get things back on track, here's a discussion point:
I would like to see the iconics statted up ONLY using the options in the rulebook they appear in, plus the core rulebook. Thus, the rogue would only use the core rules, while the oracle would use options from the core and from the APG, and the magus would use rules from Ultimate Magic and the core.
I'm not interested in setting a precedent that each time we present new rules for characters we have to update and further specialize the iconics.
Nor am I interested in this being a "How to numbercrunch the most optimized character" demo, either. If we DO present the iconics as sample stat blocks, their builds won't be optimized (and I honestly don't think any one build can ever be so perfectly optimized anyway to satisfy all optimization demands, so it's kinda pointless for us to even try). And in some cases, their builds might be deliberately SUB-optimal in order to account for character quirks and eccentricities.
I'm not interested in faceless sample characters for the iconics, in other words. They have personalities and histories, and their stats should reflect that. And I'm not sure how many people realize or even want that.
So! If you want sample stats, would you prefer us to stat up the iconics (warts and sub-optimal choices and all) or would you prefer us to just provide sample "good builds" for all the classes?