Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not a big fan of awarding reputation, on either side of this particular equation.
For what it's worth...
Any player that hurts you shows up on your enemies list. This list allows you to salute or rebuke the enemy (granting or reducing reputation, at the cost of your own).
Although, re-reading that now, it sounds like you might be limited to only rewarding/rebuking other characters if they're on this list. I was thinking you would be able to arbitrarily reward/rebuke any character at any time - now I'm not so sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about a "guide" flag that does not allow PVP? This way guides can flag themselves as helpers and will not be allowed to attack (though would be allowed to defend themselves or other party members). This would make is so that new players will be able to identify those who have agreed to assist them and wouldn't require a second tag.
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I am with Hobs
We don't need special tags, we don't need rewards. Just a list of people willing to assist and what area's they assist with. There will be plenty of people who feel investing a few hours a week assisting new players is good for the game and therefore good for themselves as players
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can only imagine how many people would game a flag with that benefit.
I think he's stressing that the Guide-flagged player would not be allowed to initiate PvP. That's not really a benefit.
For what it's worth, I think a simple Advice channel is all that's needed. New players can ask for help, and more experienced players who are willing can hang out in that channel helping.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The more thought I give this, the more I'm convinced that a help channel and a list of people willing to help out is really all that's needed. Talk of flagging and tagging and reputation shifts really just seem like unnecessary layers of complexity to me. And I'm a firm believer in the axiom "Make everything as simple as possible, and no simpler."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon,
I'm hoping for a help or advice channel. Anyone with the right answer can then help out. The reason for trying to identify those who go beyond just answering questions on a help channel is to let others know who might be willing to do more for new players than simply answer questions. I know I will be willing to escort them around the starter town, heal them during their first attempts at adventuring beyond the starter town walls, organize and hire beginning harvesters for jobs so as to give them a little beginning employment, etc.
Bringslite,
So noted, though we need a handy place to mark these names down. It needs to be readily accessible so that both new and seasoned players have access to it. Any suggestions?
I think Pagan's suggestion is well thought - a list of names, their regular region of duty geographically, and perhaps their area(s) of expertise. But again, where will it be listed?
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Goblin Squad Member
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<edited to include - "Drat...I've been Dario-ized! Too slow on the submit button.>
Bringslite,
I would be all for that, though where do we post the directions for people to find it there? That is, new people are likely to come here when first joining PFO because this is a GW sanctioned forum. Unless PFO Fan earns GW sanctioned status, it will be less likely that new players will discover the PFO Fan site, and thereby our list.
Also...we might want to ask DakCenturi first. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO FanWhile I certainly think it should be mirrored there, I'd like to see it on the main forums as well, preferably stickied. New players aren't going to know to go to a third-party site, but everyone should know about the game's official forums.
Your idea would be my first choice. It remains an unfortunate fact that we can't even get Nihimon's thread stickied. When they have time for that or agree to help, it could always be moved.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your idea would be my first choice. It remains an unfortunate fact that we can't even get Nihimon's thread stickied. When they have time for that or agree to help, it could always be moved.PFO FanWhile I certainly think it should be mirrored there, I'd like to see it on the main forums as well, preferably stickied. New players aren't going to know to go to a third-party site, but everyone should know about the game's official forums.
Well, and this is not to slight Paizo, but I really hope PFO gets its own real forums before the game launches. One giant threadlist works for now, but I suspect we'll want subforums when people are actually playing the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The reason for trying to identify those who go beyond just answering questions on a help channel is to let others know who might be willing to do more for new players than simply answer questions.
And I commend you for it; it's a noble endeavor. I certainly wasn't trying to say that an Advice Channel would obviate the work you're doing in this thread.
So noted, though we need a handy place to mark these names down. It needs to be readily accessible so that both new and seasoned players have access to it. Any suggestions?
I think Pagan's suggestion is well thought - a list of names, their regular region of duty geographically, and perhaps their area(s) of expertise. But again, where will it be listed?
If you make a list of names, I'll be happy to list it as prominently as I can in my Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links list. I really do believe this is a noble endeavor and want to support it in any way I can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... can you edit such a page to keep the list current?
Not really, but I can edit the list to point to an updated list, and would be happy to do so as often as necessary.
Another option, although probably less attractive, would be to have a single forum post here that pointed to another site where the current list is maintained.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A more elaborate option would be to have each Guide make a post describing the services they offer, and link each Guide separately. This would allow you to list the Guides directly along with a brief description, rather than listing a link to a list of guides. You could add, remove, update, and re-sort those links at will.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The other alternative would be to have a thread that anyone interested can post in, and in the first post, point a link at a google doc or somesuch that can be updated as needed. I'd suggest keeping control of the google doc limited, just so some clown doesn't drive by and clear it all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am with Hobs
We don't need special tags, we don't need rewards. Just a list of people willing to assist and what area's they assist with. There will be plenty of people who feel investing a few hours a week assisting new players is good for the game and therefore good for themselves as players
This completely echoes my thoughts actually. The people that are going to help will, rewards or not.
Also don't agree with the idea of free rep for reasons as mentioned above. I like that you have to lose some for others to gain honestly as when you get it, it will mean a lot more since you'll know someone really appreciated what you did.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The original everquest had a guide program to. They weren't GM's but they were people who had to be approved by SOE, and there was an application process, and there was a guide ranking system. If you proved yourself a good guide, you would be given a little more power and leeway. They were overseen by the GM's, or someone in public relations.
I also believe you had to have a guide character you logged into as well, so you weren't just flagged with Guide on your main. This also created a way to monitor what you were doing as the guide. I'm not sure if it was linked to your own account, or if they created a new account you had to log into as the guide character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm also a supporter of keeping this as simple as possible. There's no need for extra programming of reputation mechanics or name floatys on GWs part that just adds to the complexity of things to remember for new players.
1.) Keep a prominent, updated sticky listing by settlement the names of volunteer guides (implying anyone not on the list shouldn't be immediately trusted).
But what about when guides want some time off to just play? Don't need newbie question tells in the middle of a bandit raid, escalation final encounter, or settlement defense.
2.) Have a guide channel that acts as a connection hub for guides and newbies and also a discussion area for journeyman mechanics and concepts (beyond totally new starter questions). You can be in when you're guiding, or ignore when you're playing. It would be expected that players contact guides through the Guide Channel and not disturb them for assistance through other means.
@Proxima as one that has volunteered and believes we need little more than a list I will be taking the following view. I will be doing active guiding for a few hours a week where I am taking new players through whatever training it is I can supply. The rest of the time I won't be worried by pm'ed questions and answer if I can. I will expect a new player though to accept a "sorry I can't help right now"
We should definitely have as part of the list a description making sure people know all helpers are volunteers who also play and will sometimes not be able to answer or help due to their own in game activities
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that enough of a tutorial to know how to check, award, and punish reputation, combined with a channel for the purpose of explaining things to new players, is sufficient.
It also isn't something that can be done early on, when nobody has much more experience. Early on, that will best be handled by general chat (or TS, if global chat isn't a feature).
I know I am late coming to this discussion, and most of this has likely been covered by someone else, but I feel pretty strongly about this. There should be official 'Guides' or something similar vetted by GW similar to player GM's in other games. Their should have unique guide 'characters' or perhaps there should be a generic one and during whatever tutorial there is in the game(there really needs to be one of these, as well) beginning players should be introduced to this 'guide' system.
These guides should be compensated in some manner, depending on how much time they put into the game to both compensate and reward people willing to do this. Perhaps a month of game time for every so much time put in(note, this doesn't have to be a small amount of time - if putting in 5 hours of guide time a week means getting 1 free month out of every three it seems as if it would be greatly worthwhile - and you can't get more than 5 hours of credit per week, perhaps).
This means that people will be willing to help n00bs, lots of them, and the new players are safe from the predators that prey on the innocent. I've had this happen to me several times in open PvP games. The worst one happened in a Neverwinter Nights persistent online world. Just started, in the new area and a nice cleric comes along with his rogue friend and they buff me and help me kill some mobs. After being nice to me for a while, they offer to help me through a dungeon - BTW, one of the places open PvP was available in that world. I go in, happy to have made some new friends when as soon as I engage in combat with the creatures, my two new friends start lobbing spells and sneak attacks at me. I died in about 6 seconds. It was pretty sad. I reported to a GM and they got booted from the server for it, but it still left a really bad taste in my mouth and I never played on that server again... was pretty paranoid on other servers for a long time.
That's not the kind of experience we want anyone in PFO to have to go through, at least not before they have an idea of what's really going on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My next question for those who see themselves as potential Guides would be - when a list is made of those willing to act as Guides, what other information do you think would be pertinent to include with your name?
I have my thoughts, but in the crowdforging spirit of this thread, I would like to hear yours.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Times available - 6-7 pm EDT weeknights, or 6-9 pm CST on Tuesdays, etc.
Starter settlement you "patrol" (once there are more than one).
Areas of interest, e.g. metalwork, animal husbandry, brewing.
Roleplayer (yes/no).
Will see if I think of others after first cup of coffee hits my brain.
The original everquest had a guide program to. They weren't GM's but they were people who had to be approved by SOE, and there was an application process, and there was a guide ranking system. If you proved yourself a good guide, you would be given a little more power and leeway. They were overseen by the GM's, or someone in public relations.
I also believe you had to have a guide character you logged into as well, so you weren't just flagged with Guide on your main. This also created a way to monitor what you were doing as the guide. I'm not sure if it was linked to your own account, or if they created a new account you had to log into as the guide character.
I played EQ1 from release. If you got into the guide program, you could only play on servers that you were NOT a guide on. It was your own account, and you were told that any hint of impropriety(such as using a secondary account to play on the server were you were a guide or having friends play there) would result in pretty stiff penalties.
A lot of that won't matter in PFO, since afaik there is only one server. At least for a long time... though maybe there will be others for overseas.
However, a guide shouldn't be given any actual power or special privileges(other than a possible reward for acting as a guide). They should be there simply to answer questions, give advice and show new players around. Perhaps they can also contact an actual GM more easily in cases where it's necessary. Power corrupts and absolute power.... well, I'm sure you guys know the cliches as well as I do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To add to Deianira's idea, an addition to 'areas of interest' could be areas you would be happy to tutor newbies in.
In other words, don't just explain to the newbie how to find nodes...show them, or show them the tools/skills they need.
Don't just give them a shortsword and point them to the kobold caverns...take them to a basic fight and show them examples of how combat works and give them some hints.
Another idea would be to have some fun events that newbies can participate in. Get them to find a tavern in town, or be the first to find your buddy hiding somewhere just outside of town to get them exploring. Something interactive and easy, but they get a shiny gold coin or something at the end of it.
As Decius stated, it would be ideal to organise this over a global channel...preferably a 'newbie' global channel that helpers can tune in and those with under 20 hours of play automatically get tuned in also (toggable of course).
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Goblin Squad Member
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To add to Deianira's idea, an addition to 'areas of interest' could be areas you would be happy to tutor newbies in.
In other words, don't just explain to the newbie how to find nodes...show them, or show them the tools/skills they need.
Don't just give them a shortsword and point them to the kobold caverns...take them to a basic fight and show them examples of how combat works and give them some hints.
Another idea would be to have some fun events that newbies can participate in. Get them to find a tavern in town, or be the first to find your buddy hiding somewhere just outside of town to get them exploring. Something interactive and easy, but they get a shiny gold coin or something at the end of it.
As Decius stated, it would be ideal to organise this over a global channel...preferably a 'newbie' global channel that helpers can tune in and those with under 20 hours of play automatically get tuned in also (toggable of course).
Taverns! Games! Yay!
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Goblin Squad Member
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... preferably a 'newbie' global channel...
I would recommend calling it an "Advice" chat channel, rather than a "Newbie" chat channel. I wouldn't want to turn off higher level players who were looking for advice related to higher level activities, like clearing out escalations or simply recommendations for skills to train.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yay Nihimon backed my idea of a channel not it'll happen for sure.
I think organizing the Guide list by settlement will be more useful than any other way so sample entry in Guide list:
AWESOMESAUCE TOWNSHIP
Niceguy McIllsaveyou (RP)
PvP, tracking, mining, escort
I.M. Notaganker-Honest
PvP, weapon crafting, assasin tag
EVILTOWN
Legless Lego Legolas
banditry, betrayal
etc. etc. etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks to everyone who has participated in this discussion thus far. I'm trying to pick the brains of a few people about how to best provide the community with the Guide Network listing of participants and I'll post what we come up with when something more concrete has been worked out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At least you won't have to worry about the list for a long time while we figure out what's going on. If GW chose to help out with an actual /guide channel that would be handy so the first wave of players can teach each other whatever we try out first. The idea of who's who should also get shaken out so really obvious miscreants don't get on the list.
I think each guide volunteer should develop at least a little bit of a social reputation (not the game mechanic which could be gamed) first before making it onto the sticky and stay under a spotlight because as I understand it the most fundamental thing about the list is that you can trust them to not gank you, and then not mislead or misinform you for whatever political/economic schemes they might have going on (see: EVE).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The trick is finding the happy middle ground between a totally unvetted list to which membership might be used as a means of abuse and an exclusive club where perfectly well-meaning players find it impossible to join.
Perhaps those who have shown an interest through EE can make up that initial core of Guides. It will be during this period that prospective Guides will be not only be learning the ropes for themselves, but taking note of which game mechanics and systems will pose the greatest challenges for future new players. After this initial group (the first Guide Listing) is made, inclusion might require the recommendation of one or more existing guides (having worked together in-game - answering questions, escorting new players, running educational events, etc.). Though systems such as this can be gamed, it wouldn't take many instances of abuse before the problem player was identified, removed from the list, and faced other potential repercussions.
As with most of the topics discussed on the forums where meta-reputation will be the only real measure and the community the police, I have confidence that if we network well enough as players, we can find that happy middle ground and deal with those who attempt to take advantage of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've always just made it a point to help players who are already tryiing to make the best of things.
Absolutely. Nothing stops players from helping where ever they see fit. All we're chatting about here is a way to make available the names of players who are willing and to coordinate efforts where possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think a roster is the right way to go, you lose out on a good number of people. I'm willing to help people, but I'm not willing to put my name on a list. I only want people contacting me on my terms.
I see 3 options:
1. Build an online help desk center
2. Use an in-game chat channel
3. Use an out of game chat channel
I would suggest option 3, and use an IRC channel. Even when the game is launched. For a few reasons.
- It will be online even when the servers are down(people like to go chat during maintenance times)
- It can be accessed out of game
- Unless GW uses an IRC client in the game and allows external access, it will probably be more customizable.
- It is very easy to create channels on the fly
The only issue is getting people to use it. You would be surprised how often people log in then out within minutes of each other. You need a decent sized group getting on as often as they can for a few weeks, and hopefully build up a constant flow of people.
The easiest way to do this is probably using mibbit, it's free and they have an online client, or a chrome app. In about 10 minutes I refreshed my memory of commands and created two channels #PFO, and #PFOhelp. Both of those links will take you directly to the channels, or you can type '/join #PFO'. I'll idle on them for the next few days during the day(PST) if people want to chat or ask questions(I like to think I know most of the current information that has been released). If these channels catch on, I'll make a more detailed post with some quick tips and instructions.
I don't think a fan site is a good tool for new players, everything needs to come from a direct link in official forums and require no new login to maximize participation. I know I'm not the only person that doesn't like to juggle websites and logins. In most games now I'm only interested in my guild/clan's website, this is the only game forum I really read. Right now the setup isn't great, but it fits our current needs. I have no reason to suspect there won't be a help/support section in the official forums where people can ask questions, or post guides, and maybe have some get stickied.
IMO, an IRC channel is the easiest way to help people. As above, you can create a direct link and all people have to do is type in the nickname they want to use at the time, hit go, and wait a few seconds. Then they are in a channel that contains people that can help them with their problem.
Right now all we really need is a place where people can go ask questions, and get answers, while not cluttering this forum with the same questions, like "when do I get my PFS boon", or "Does this game have open PVP."
IRC is also a good place for live dev chats or other moderated gatherings, such as a Q/A with a certain organization or noted community member. I would love to turn this into an IRC centric community, it's one thing I miss about my time in SWGemu.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valkenr
The idea has some merit and few downsides. It would only be a positive, except that verbal descriptions are more difficult to follow than written or preferably "in-game physical guidance".
I can, for instance, describe where a shop is or what a certain node looks like but if I "show" a new player or small group, they will find it easier. As well, my "physical" in-game toon is more personable, less confusing (many voices drowning each other) and so will have a greater impact than an impersonal voice.
Edit:A hybrid combination of in-game presence and a voice chat would not be half bad either. Hmm...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valkner,
What I think I see happening is that people want to help in different ways, and thus, the community may need different systems/structures to allow them their helping vehicle of choice. Also, as you point out, what is needed from now through EE for helping those with questions might be different after OE begins (e.g. far more people to service, a continually growing game to explain to new players, etc.).
Where I disagree is that there is any one solution. Certainly, one venue might catch the largest number of people seeking help, but just as different players will want to help in different ways and to varying degrees, players in need have different ways in which they will want to gain that information, based on the type/depth of their question, their past experience, how immediate their need for information is, and their comfort level with tools/services they have not used before.
How we offer assistance seems to break down into these categories, with some helpers being interested in possibly participating in more than one:
1. Help Channel Q/A - You don't mind having a help channel open, keeping an eye on the questions posted as you play, and chiming if you have the answer.
2. Forum Posts - You're the type to read forums and blogs often enough to know what's been posted in the past and pass that information on to new posters as answers and/or links (a la Nihimon).
3. Written Guides - You're the type to try out various skills and builds, learn what works best, and write a guide to share your experience.
** Whether #2 & #3 are provided more user friendly capabilities on the future PFO boards or need to be accommodated on a third party site like PFO Fan where important threads can be grouped, stickied, etc., remains to be seen. **
4. IRC - Whether you like to sit in the channel and chat/assist as its own activity or keep it open in a window as you play, it is a useful vehicle for sharing information for all the reasons Valkenr mentioned (I used to use one in UO for community discussions and Stratics House of Commons Chats).
5. Team Speak/Vent/etc. - Though likely more often used in a guild (where you're hopefully receiving help from guildmates), those of us using the PFO Fan TS have found it very useful for sharing ideas, clarifying information, etc. Limited perhaps by server size, I still think it might provide some people help, or at least a place for helpers to meet, share/discuss, and plan.
6. In-game & In-person - You're the type who is willing to spend time with the new person in-game - to show them around, adventure with them, etc. This may be for short stints on the fly, hours patrolling starter areas and actively seeking out people who need help, or involve organizing actual new player events.
---------------
Personally, I'm a #1 and #6. I'm a social player. I play MMORPGs for the "MM" and the "RP". That I'm doing it "Online" is simply a matter of necessity (my old TT buddies live in other states) and the fact that there is a "Game" in which to do it just makes it that much more fun, but if there's enough of the MM and RP, it really doesn't matter to me what the game happens to be. My point of playing is to interact with others and try to make their game experience more enjoyable.
I also know my limitations. I'll never be a decent #2 or #3. I leave #2 to people like Nihimon, Dario, AvenaOats, Being, Bluddwolf, Pagan, etc. who all seem to keep track of game info better than I. #3...good lord...I'm just not the type to spend the time learning the details of a game system well enough to think I have any business writing a guide. I played Ultima Online for 7 years and only had one character who maxed out his skill, and likely such a mish-mash of choices that any decent gamer would have had a good laugh at my build.
Proposal:
So - where do I think this discussion of helping new players is headed? Thus far, we seem to have been lumping all intentions to help new players into one pool, where in reality, I think we need to start talking about separate, but networked, pools of assistance.
#1 - If you are open to doing #1, I don't think there is any further organization necessary. When the game starts, if there is a help channel, we can all help as much or as little as we like.
#2 & #3 - Until we have more efficient utilities (for #2) and more information (for #3), Nihimon seems to be doing a fine job of keeping the most valuable posts and blogs in one spot. Once we have more efficient utilities at our disposal, perhaps he and others will want to steer the creation of a player information collection of articles, blogs, wikis, etc. DakCenturi was recently looking for help in doing the same on the PFO Fan site.
#4 - Valkenr already seems to have taken the lead here. To what extent it gets used may not be accurately measured until there is more need for it as a help channel.
#5 - Again, as a place to seek help, the PFO TS server might be a limited tool if immediate answers are what you're seeking, but I think it would make a good spot for helpers to network with one another. I also think it would make a wonderful classroom for scheduled tutorials on particular topics (much like EVE University), especially for people who would rather talk to their helper than type. Having someone willing to organize such classes once there is a need would be handy.
#6 - When I started this thread, this is what I was thinking of - the in-game, face-to-face assistance. This is the one that I would be willing to organize and where I'll be spending the bulk of my in-game time. It is also the only one that may need a list for trusted service, since it's the only one that requires the new player to place their character at risk (and only then, if you're offering to escort them out of town).
As several posters have mentioned, simply being on the list does not mean you have to make yourself available - we are not paid employees. Listed times of service will help mitigate this issue. However, if a new player comes calling, I'm hoping that if you're not available to help, it will be easy enough to contact another Guide who is. If not, we have all the other items on the list above to point them towards and hopefully answer their question.
I am going to begin another thread entitled "The Guide Program" for #6 topic visibility and discussion focus. After 91 posts in this thread, new people interested in #6 may have a hard time finding the part they're after. Those who wish to take the lead on one or more of the other numbers (2-5) may wish to do the same, though as Grumpy Mel often says, you're mileage may vary. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valkenr
The idea has some merit and few downsides. It would only be a positive, except that verbal descriptions are more difficult to follow than written or preferably "in-game physical guidance".
I can, for instance, describe where a shop is or what a certain node looks like but if I "show" a new player or small group, they will find it easier. As well, my "physical" in-game toon is more personable, less confusing (many voices drowning each other) and so will have a greater impact than an impersonal voice.
Edit:A hybrid combination of in-game presence and a voice chat would not be half bad either. Hmm...
Just because people connect in one area, doesn't mean they will not move on to another area. In my time in SWGemu, there were multiple times where my chat with someone in the help channel led to an in-game encounter. Even using the general chat channel led to in-game encounters.
The idea is that you have a single place to start from, and a chat room is a combination of accessibility, speed, and low bandwidth, so you can run it with the game on almost any modern internet connection.
You send everyone to a single link, where they can ask for a wide verity of help. If they want in-game support, they can ask for it. If they want someone to talk to them on a VOIP server, they can ask for it. If they just need the link to a game guide, they can ask for it.
My first choice would be using an in-game help channel, as most games have, but you don't have any real verification there, anyone can answer anything. I would rather see a singular location that people log into when they are willing to help, and they are marked in a way that can be removed if they end up being disruptive. Also an in-game channel is also inaccessible from the outside(presumably), so people can only help when they are in the game.
I plan on doing my best to help new players, but not by being a wuss like the rest of you. You introduce a new player to the game by showing them what the game's like, right? So here's what I'll do.
1. Promise them gold.
2. Lead them into wilderness.
3. Kill them and take their stuff--use an assassin ability or the like to make it an extra-big pain, maybe.
And then I'll apologize and try to do it again. And again. Once they've learned their lesson, the introduction will be complete.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I plan on doing my best to help new players, but not by being a wuss like the rest of you. You introduce a new player to the game by showing them what the game's like, right? So here's what I'll do.
1. Promise them more gold, and give them a trivial amount.
2. Teach them how to use a secondary soul bind far away from the starter city
3. Lead them into wilderness.
4. Kill them and take their stuff--use an assassin ability or the like to make it an extra-big pain, maybe.And then I'll apologize and try to do it again. And again. Once they've learned their lesson, the introduction will be complete.
