Pannath's page

STOP SAYING WIZARD! They're just one of classes that can use magic. There are only like 3 classes in Pathfinder that CAN'T use magic. Warrior, Barbarian and Rogue, maybe Monk too , but they get chi abilities.

Any Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Wizard, Sorcerer, Ranger, or Bard has the ability to cast magic, so they could use that magic to enchant an item if they had the right feats, or enchantment tree in this case.

But you're too fixated on saying Wizard Wizard Wizard. There are far more spellcasting classes than the ones without magical abilities.

They're basing the system off of the Pathfinder game, there will be similar magical items. Any spell that any caster can be put in a wand. Other affects for the sake of making them longer lasting or always on can be put in other items that can be worn.

Crafters should be for crafting items. Magic users should be for magic. If you want to mix an item with magic, you should require both, it's very simple.

Well it seems a large number of restrictions should be put in for the creation and use of items to prevent abuse. It would be beyond a travesty if someone who was only a crafter and didn't invest any points into magical skills could even make the smallest magical item.

A pure crafter can make as many items as they want, and I think that's awesome, but if they refused to learn magic then they shouldn't be given any privilege in that area.

I can't even believe that I'm hearing an argument complaining that MAGIC USERS might have a privilege in making MAGIC over NON-magic users. I really don't want to be rude or throw names, but seriously?

I know plenty of brain dead redneck gear heads, or handymen. They can fix and build most things, they like working with their hands. So now you have the medieval versions of these guys who never went to go learn magic but all of a sudden can manufacture items of wonder. Not a chance.

And I think that the sole crafters should be able to craft most stuff in the game, except for magic items. That is something specialized, they may be able to make the non magic part of it, which means inversely that no sole magic user can make a magic item either, it would require both. This will help limit the mass manufacture of such things.

I can't see why you have an issue with this, it will require people to go out and get high level materials, and components possibly from high level monsters. A sole crafter would not be able to make any item whatsoever without someone to do this. Magic is just another component or material which can be harvested/supplied from a magic user of the appropriate level.

Perhaps add requirements like an enchantment that needed a level 10 magic user to put on a suit of armor, would mean that you'd need a level 10 character to wear the armor, etc..

There are plenty of ways to prevent the plex like situation.

Magic items in d&d and in Pathfinder are just that, Items that can do what magic can do, sometimes to a better extent.

You're trying to make the enchanter into the ultimate class. There would be no point in EVER going Wizard, or Cleric, or Druid, or Bard, ever. You could spend less time learning to make the magic items that replicate what the magical classes train their entire careers to do.

You would wreck the game if you were in charge, and you wouldn't realize it until it was too late. You would enable the crafters to become the most powerful spellcasters. They wouldn't have to search the world to learn new spells, or take the years to master Wizard, and then Cleric, and whatever else. They could already utilize every spell from every spellcasting class much better and with more frequency in a shorter time period the way you want it. After 8 months they would essentially be a level 20 Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric/Druid with bard spells who could wear fullplate armor and still cast. 8 months to circumvent 10 years worth of play. Thanks for the short sightedness and greed, the game would then suck and be broken.

In a normal d&d world if a wizard or a cleric or druid or other casting class didn't decide to pick up the feats as they leveled up, they could do it at a higher level when they had the money and time. And then they could make a killing. That's how it works. But they had to learn the magic first.

And your analogy about race cars doesn't fit, not even remotely. A better analogy is that a lizard couldn't spontaneously give birth to a Human, because it's not a human.

Magic users cast spells, a magic item is just a static spell or static collection of spells that can be used over and over again that is fixed inside of an item. If should require being able to cast that spell to embue an item with the ability to do the same thing. Though that should not be the ONLY requirement, just one of them.

And you're all afraid that everyone is going to play a wizard because you can't seem to grasp there are other types of magic... well if magic is what makes them happy, then go for it.

These same rules apply in every d&d and pathfinder game that's ever been made, but you usually only have 1 wizard in a party, if that. Because you have to play 2.5 years non stop as a squishy wizard to get powerful.

People will play other classes, and they will mix and match, and a few will specialize. And if you want to craft, then you can craft, but if you want to make magic, you need to study magic too. There are also plenty of people who don't like crafting either, so those people wouldn't be sitting around learning to enchant stuff with their magic powers, they'd move on to another class.

@Onishi

What you're suggesting is that your crafter could learn all this crafting, then go off and say make a bunch of magical armor, and wands of fireballs and potions of healing, and who knows what else, then all of a sudden he's just as equipped to go out in the wilderness from sitting in his forge and fight on the same level as the people who have be fighting tooth and nail to master their craft. You need to think things through before you start getting greedy.

8 months huh? Well that would make the enchanting class the best class in the game. Because everyone else who was going strong if it takes 2.5 years to get to level 20, after 8 months maybe people are level 5 or 6. But the enchanter he can't cast magic so he can wear full plate with the max magical bonus, and have his belt pouch of wands for any occassion. Takes the time to learn to use wands, can't imagine the wand skill would take too much time, maybe a week or a few days to max out. Then pulls out his wand of Meteor shower and AoE's everything... something attacks him and he quaffs a potion of ultimate healing if he needs it because his rings of mega regeneration keep him up against anything the players a 8 months in could go against. Then he pulls out his tome of wish and dicks around with that for awhile, makes some adamantine golems to follow him around.

You should 100% require magical skill before making magical items.

I reiterate my previous statement, I had edited it likely while you were replying, so you might not have seen it.

@Onishi

Yes, the wizard should have the edge. If the person who had been focusing on learning to do every sort of crafting didn't go out of their way to focus on learning magic, why the heck should they be able to make magic items?

They can make the items that will be enchanted, because it still needs to be masterwork, but if they didn't want to learn magic, then they don't get to make magic items.

AND if someone focused on being a wizard and had a load of spells, they'd be able to make the magic items that fell under the wizards purview, but not items for which you needed other casting classes if they learned to enchant as well and took the time.

The game is meant to take a long time, so you can't max out super fast. If it goes your way, and someone focuses just on enchanting because enchanting has a skill tree and they don't need to be able to cast magic, or have to go find the spells as well then they'll be able to make the biggest baddest magical items in the game very quickly.

I'd imagine to get to the end of all the crafting skills it would take quite some time. If you didn't learn to do anything else except enchanting? I couldn't see it taking all that long at all with the way you're proposing.

But if you have to learn wizardry, or to be a cleric, or to be some other caster. Sure if you also focus on enchanting and crafting skills and happen to get the right spells, then you could make some magical items after awhile, and it would be probably around 3 years before you could make the biggest baddest stuff. As opposed to say 2 months with the way you're suggesting.

Magical items should require multiple combined skill sets. Not just one all powerful crafting skills tree.

You keep preaching give the crafters ALL the power. And you keep trying to say that people who want you to require to have a magic class are saying give the magic users ALL the power. We're not saying that. We're saying you should need BOTH, not just one.

It's magic users in the game world who made the magic items, so it makes sense in the MMO it should be too. That warrior who never took the time to learn magic, is it fair to the Wizard or Cleric who did that some jock with a sword can start making wands and other stuff to replicate their entire career? NO. Magic items are to bring magic to people who don't have it, or to enchance the magic that's already there or work along side it, it's made by magic users, not the blacksmith down the road, or the world weary Warrior.

What you're suggesting is that your crafter could learn all this crafting, then go off and say make a bunch of magical armor, and wands of fireballs and potions of healing, and who knows what else, then all of a sudden he's just as equipped to go out in the wilderness from sitting in his forge and fight on the same level as the people who have be fighting tooth and nail to master their craft. You need to think things through before you start getting greedy.

8 months huh? Well that would make the enchanting class the best class in the game. Because everyone else who was going strong if it takes 2.5 years to get to level 20, after 8 months maybe people are level 5 or 6. But the enchanter he can't cast magic so he can wear full plate with the max magical bonus, and have his belt pouch of wands for any occassion. Takes the time to learn to use wands, can't imagine the wand skill would take too much time, maybe a week or a few days to max out. Then pulls out his wand of Meteor shower and AoE's everything... something attacks him and he quaffs a potion of ultimate healing if he needs it because his rings of mega regeneration keep him up against anything the players a 8 months in could go against. Then he pulls out his tome of wish and dicks around with that for awhile, makes some adamantine golems to follow him around.

You should 100% require magical skill before making magical items.

Well that doesn't sound too bad. As long as it's not instant travel.

If they add the Plane of Knowledge.. I'm out.

Mass transportation has been heavily implied to be a major gameplay element, but hasn't had an in-depth announcement to quote from.

This makes me sad, I know the current generation is all about convenience, and wants everything now. They don't want to have to trudge across a virtual continent to get where they're going. But I find that adds more depth to the game, and it makes you appreciate things more when you get them.

If you had to go on some great adventure to get where you were going, you could tell a story to your friends about it.

And it helps the economy as well, because the players who are willing to transport goods from one end of a game world where they are common, to another end of the game world create more game play elements.

They can make more money off of selling their wares where they are rare. Players can find jobs as caravan guards. Other players can find jobs as bandits. It adds to the community.

People will flock and gather in large trade hubs, and be more apt to socialize in such places. If you can go everywhere whenever you want, and buy from anywhere, you have no need to be anywhere specific to get something. You just pop around at your leisure.

I understand what you're saying, and with the open system I agree that such a thing is possible that you could have an enchanting tree that could stand alone, since you're not being restricted to class.

However if an enchanting class is completely it's own tree and doesn't require any other sort of magical ability or aptitude that makes it a much easier singular pursuit.

The reason I've advocated needing a caster present is because it adds another level to the difficulty, just because you have knowledge of how to make a certain type of magic item with your character researched perhaps in an enchanting tree, I don't think that should mean that you can just make it. Requirements of knowing and being able to cast specific spells for the enchantments should be a big part of it to.

Though in the tabletop game a lot of the base spells required to add enchantment bonuses are low level spells. Like Bull's strength for a strength bonus, or Cat's grace for a Dexterity bonus, Mage Armor for an AC bonus, etc... After that the level of the bonus being dependant on a divisor of 3 on the caster level, having enough experience that was required available before you hopped over to the next level since you couldn't use enough to drop you a level, having the right components and tools, etc..

I think that there should be an enchanting tree, that would replace the feats like 'Craft Wondrous Item' and 'Craft Magical Weapon/Armor' etc... and it could be expanded on, and be required to have have higher levels in specific skills to do an enchantment, or research a type of enchantment.

But I also think that being able to cast the spells should be required. If you have the spells, you can do something similar to how they described researching a spell for crafting. Once you have researched it and can reproduce the spell, you can research using that specific spell in enchantments if you have the enchanting skills.

And the process of enchantment should put on hold all skill advancement for the length of the process, if it takes a few hours, or a few days or longer to make the magical item, the character enchanting it will have to wait until that time is over before they can resume skill training.

@Sadurian

That is pretty much what I've been saying. People are fixating too much on the Wizard class. There are many magic using classes, Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Bards. There are less classes that can't use magic than can use magic.

And not all magic users may be able to enchant items. In the tabletop game if you didn't use one of your very few and fleeting feat slots on one of the magical item creation feats then you couldn't enchant. And besides having to find all the very expensive components as well as a masterwork item to enchant, and requiring knowledge of the spells needed for the specific enchantment it also took a large toll in the shape of experience. You had to spend your experience points. So it likely wasn't common for there to be magic users making loads of enchantments.

Perhaps something similar could be put in. Once all the components are together, and the crafting and spell levels and spell types are met, it takes X amount of time to make the item based on the power of the item. This amount of time stops all skill training. This is a way of investing personal experience in the magical item.

I completely agree that it should not be simple to pump out magical items and over saturate the market. A good crafter should be required, AND someone with the appropriate magical talent who possesses the required spell to do the enchantment too.

Making magical items shouldn't be restricted to just one niche. And that's what all the guys saying 'only crafters' are trying to say.

I'm trying to say it should require a crafter, and a caster. It should require the right spells, which the casters don't just manifest, they devs have already said that spells will be found as loot. And besides the normal resources required to make the item, the enchantment components might be hard to find either, they might require someone to slay some specific type of monster for spell components. And it should require an experience investiture as I detailed earlier.

In this way magical items can be made in concert with a significant amount of areas of game play needed to make the whole.

Yes one person probably could do all of this if they put their points in all the reqired areas, but it would be quite a while before that one person could make anything mind blowing by themselves, but it could be done.

Some people here are just arguing one side, and they think that the people saying it should require magic users for enchantments are just arguing the opposite side. That is not so, it's arguing the middle, for both to be required to cooperate.

Stop being unrealistic and selfish.

In the actual Pathfinder game the +3 would mean the caster had to be atleast 9th level to put that enchantment on, have a make magical weapons feat, know the appropriate spell for giant slaying, and have a masterwork greatsword at their disposal to enchant.

Every crafter doesn't have to be an wizard, or any other type of magic user that could have made the enchantment, they just need access to someone who is one to put an enchantment on an item.

If you don't have magic, you can't enchant. Don't complain, just get some magic, you're not prevented from learning. Or find someone else with magic.

As I said to get the components to make anything, even non magical items will require people with combat abilities. Someone will need to go out in the wilderness full of hostiles to find resources. The rarer the resource the more dangerous the hostiles involved.

If you think you can craft without ever using combat abilities you're mistaken.

example: new character, I want to craft... need to purchase skill at crafting, crafting tools, components... wait I don't have any money. I beg in the streets and hope someone gives me something ... might actually work. But you're probably going to have to go kill some monsters and sell your loot to get the absolute minimum start up coin. Then you hope that someone will buy the low level trash that you've created that you can make some money to build more low level garbage, and eventually move up to low level nick nacks that someone might want.

In the end, someone has to go kill something so you can even craft the lowest level thing, or purchase the tools to craft the lowest level thing, or purchase the skill to know how to craft the lowest level thing.

If that's required just to do something so mundane and basic, then it most certainly should be required above and beyond to craft a magical item.

Well I do see your point about people would just make websites with lists of what was being sold where if the game didn't put it in. So being able to see it from a distance, or having something pop up saying that x is being sold in this settlement at this stall or shop location, and giving you a waypoint isn't so bad.

I hadn't realized that they had posted something official on this. I approve.

This all would be completely defeated though if people could insta transit/teleport wherever they wanted in the game world. It would just make localized markets an irritation with the ability to move around that quickly. So I really hope they don't add instant travel and wreck this system.

Having to caravan shipments across the world could be interesting, hiring players and/or npc's to guard your caravan from other players and/or npcs as they travel would be something that would happen.

This also opens up the career of being a hiway robber and bandit, which I've heard people express interest in.

I'm not sure if it's been addressed how the player market will work in PFO. I personally would like to see localized Markets, where what you are selling is only available where you're selling it.

I know games like WoW and many other MMO's have Market places that are availble where ever you are, or you can just do a mass search for what you need.

I really liked the idea in the original Everquest of the Bazaar. Or having playing housing or player owned shops like in Star Wars Galaxies before they changed it to a level system.

If you have a large MMO world, without easy mass transit and add localized markets, it changes how the economy works. Things that may be quite common in one area, are not so common in a different area of the game. This leads to significantly different types of crafting and what's being sold.

People will go out of their way to travel to specific settlements because they sell quality goods. Perhaps a black market is run out of a local Thieves guild a player made, or the Wizards tower sells quality magical items and spells.

Maybe your settlement because of this has a robust Bazaar, so not only are people from your settlement the only ones selling out of thier stores, but other players travel there to have their wares sold because of the high player traffic.

Even in Eve there were large Market hubs. However since it was a scifi mmo, it made sense to have a Market search from systems away. In a setting without such tech available I don't think the global or area search feature should be available. I realize that people are spoiled by conveniences like that and instant travel, but having to actually work for something and go out of your way to find it, as frustrating as it may be to do makes finally getting it worth so much more.

Some players may make their money by buying and selling commodities. You purchase in one area something that is more readily available, and take it to a place where it is not so readily available, and sell it for a marked up price. The consumer can either pay your marked up price, or get up off there ass and trek across the game world hoping to find what they're looking for at a cheaper price over there. That's how economies work in real life, and I think it will add a depth to the economy in game as well if done that way, especially since much the game will revolve around the player economy.

I see a lot of people on the side of Magic users and others trying to fly on the side of just pure crafter for enchanting. Pathfinder is still a d&d based universe, and I think they should try to stay as close to the setting as they can.

One should be required to have magical aptitude to enchant an item. But as the books say, you can only enchant masterwork items, you can't just got make some awesome magical item out of a piece of crap. So this means that it still will require someone to be a crafter too. Since the system will allow people to get skills in any class and not just be restricted to 1 class I can't see why someone who is a crafter would have an issue with having to have magical abilities to make a magic item.

Sure if you were in an mmo and you could only be 1 class, so you're a warrior or a thief and you like crafting, then I can see how you might complain. Even in d&d you had the option to multi or dual class if you wanted magical abilities.

I think there should be things that mirror enchanting feats, whether it's a tree. And the level of enchantment you can put on it will be based on the level of your magical ability. Sure bonuses will be different in the online game than it was in tabletop , but the ratio's would be similar. **IF** you had a magical item crafting feat, and were a caster, and had the correct spell needed for an enchantment and had a masterwork appropriate item you could put an enchantment with a power based on your level as a caster. For example every 3 levels of a magical class you could put a +1 bonus on a magic item.

I could see research being done for magical items, and some might require many different casting classes and spells. Sure you know the formula needed to make the awesome staff of earthly smiting, and you can carve a mean branch into a staff and put some nice designs on it. Because all you do is craft... well you still need the special ingredients that some adventure had to beat out of the wilderness, you need raw magical aptitude at X level, and you need whomever has this magical aptitude to also posses not only the ability to enchant stuff but the correct spells, which they didn't just when they leveled up, but had to find, and some may be rare spells, some may just be lower level spells that require a higher level caster to get a bigger bang out of it.

If you're so dead set about not getting up off your ass and killing monsters, or climbing through dungeons and only want to craft and nothing else then you can still put masterwork bonuses on an item, you just can make it magical or put other magical effects on it. People will still require crafters to make the things they will enchant. You'll have to work with someone who has magical ability. I can't see how you can complain about being denied access to part of the game when you'll be going out of your way to not play a significant portion of the gameplay.

Your complaint: I can't make magic items because I refuse to fight a single monster and raise a combat or magical classes skills.

The game has multiple facets, You'll need to utilize many of them to get something awesome, not just 1.

It won't just be wizards or sorcerers that can enchant, other classes have magical aptitude. In d&d the only way to get an AC deflection bonus is from the 'Armor of Faith' spell, which is a Cleric spell. There are many other examples.

Sure you can make money from crafting, and use that to buy better components to make better things, to sell for more to buy better to make better and raise your skills etc... but someone needs to gather these components, not all of which will be lying on the ground, some may be big bad monster parts, etc... And even the ones that are lying around to be picked up will be surrounded by horrible monsters, and since you can't fight because you just wanted to be a crafter they will be able to kill you by just sneezing.

If you have to rely on others to gather your components for you, or protect you while you try to gather them, I can't see what your complaint on collaborating with a magic user to put an enchantment on some masterwork item that you just made would be.

Eldurian create a new topic about it, I'd be happy to talk about it there ;)

I really don't like having to pay to get my hands on cosmetic items, I was just making a point that the want in the gaming community is large enough that games are able to operate that way. So when looking at a subscription model game, it's important to find ways to inject many cosmetic and style variances and the ability to aquire them.

As interesting as it might be to try a pacifist character, I could see it being used for harassment, like following someone around and preventing them from attacking. However that is completely off topic for this thread. You could make a seperate post for your idea Eldurian.

Here we're just trying to talk about fun non combat related and non main game related activies that they could add to the game for people who are just chilling. Detering combat is still combat related.

I think the idea of drinking mini games at a bar could be a lot of fun. I've seen taverns in many MMO's, though they hardless get used by players, nor are they set up really to be a gathering place or a place with activities usually. It's always nice when you have a reason to go there.

We used to try to find interesting game mechanics and invent our own games to play. In original Everquest we'd get our characters almost black out drunk, then group with a Bard who had "Selo's Accelerendo" active (fastest run speed buff in the game), then race through Kelethin (Which was a wood elf City that consisted of platforms high up in the trees connected by rope bridges) and see who could make it through without falling off and dying... seeing as they were too drunk to a) see where they were going or b) run in a straight line.

Though the idea of implementing fun mini games to trivial activities does increase the general fun of the game across the board.

That's not what I was talking about. You're picking at small points. My point is there should be things for people to do other than the main game. And those people who are logged in minding their own business just chatting in town should have stuff to do other than avoiding conflict.

Likewise people who play alot should have other options then hunting down new or casual players as fodder when they're not in the "grind" sort of mood. And yes I realize that you can't grind for xp since everything is time based, I was making an analogy.

The whole point is, it would be nice if there were other things to do in game besides wander the wilderness, fight monsters, fight players, harvest resources, craft stuff, build settlements, and train abilities.

It really depends on what there is to do. I know many times when I log into MMO's and don't do anything, I literally run around town, and just don't want to go kill something. I chat with my friends or random people, look around the game, try to jump up to locations just to see if I can get there. It's always nice when you have options.

Not really sure what you're implying in that other players are our content in downtime as much as they are during "business" hours. I really hope that you don't just mean pvp. Since there will be some people who aren't that high powered who jump log in casually, and don't want to have to worry about being assassinated while they're chilling in town.

If free to play MMO models can keep their games funded and running solely through the micro transaction purchases of cosmetic items, that sort of implies that they are important enough for the devs to devote some extra time to. Just a thought ;)

There is already major evidence out there that people love small cosmetic things. Many games have micro purchase marketplaces that are almost purely full of cosmetic items. They don't put anything on these marketplaces that would have an actual in game balance effect because then you could pay to win. In saying this, they make a ridiculous amount on these marketplaces, even though only about 10% of their player base are the only ones who make these purchases.

I'm not suggesting that PFO add all of this to a marketplace, I'm just using this to illustrate that people love cosmetic diversity. Just look at the real world. People don't dress the same, and rich people spend retarded amounts of cash just to have something that is different.

Variety is the spice of life. If there were quest lines, or reputations you had to build, or whatever other means you had to use to get your hands on these new emotes, animations, voices, cosmetic effects... people will pursue them, and try to collect as many as they possibly can. That's the whole purpose behind an achievement system, especially if other people can see your achievements, or titles, etc...

Besides being fun, it's a form of social community status. And it makes people happy.

I think a lot of people sort of misunderstood what I meant when I suggested this. I gave some examples like fishing, or possible other resource gathering.

What I was trying to say is that when people log in, it can't be all business all the time. An MMO by nature is a social environment, and that being said a lot of times people will log in and just chat, or walk around in circles, or not want to go kill monsters.

Especially since abilities are time based in this MMO, so I can't go off and slaughter the whole countryside and level up a bunch of times, there really do need to be other means of entertainment. Because after all, this is a GAME. Games are supposed to be fun. Large community games on this level should have multiple ways of having fun.

Some people here are worried that the developers possibly trying to make the game more fun in the overall sense might take away from them working the specific down to business aspects of game play. In doing this they're not looking at the large picture. Games, especially MMO's NEED other things for their players to do than just pursuing the main objectives all the time. And the more fun and variety there is for these light things for you to do when you're just socializing, the better the experience is.

And there are many people who are the atypical "power gamers" who are always business all the time, and I acknowledge this. However that is not the average in a community. These people want to get power as fast as possible, they want to click, get the fish, or click harvest the node, so they can accumulate as fast as possible, and don't care if it's boring or not. The majority of people who do these tasks do care if it's boring, so please keep that in mind.

So the more interesting the menial tasks in the game can be, and the more variety there is, the more people the game will attract. And you power gamers who want all the power as fast as possible will still get it faster than the other casual gamers who just want to have fun, just in this case, there will be more players overall in the community for you to lord your power over, because the game will be fun for the masses too.

It's just like real life, everyone wants to be different, stick out, be noticed. Or have something noone else does.

I play planetside 2, and I have bought a LOT of camo, helmets and armor. So my character always sticks out. This is good and bad. I look cool, people want to be in my squad... it's bad because when the enemy is looking for someone to shoot, they see a whole bunch of guys who look the same, then this one other guy who looks WAY different... who do you think they shoot at first? lol

People also like other pursuits in games besides leveling. See my post about Zen Gaming.

Well the fireworks was just a common example. But there are other loads of other abilities. I play WoW sometimes, and other MMO's. And I literally throw away novelty items like that. I kept one that makes encases my character in amber. I think there are hundreds in the game that do all sorts of cool effects, but they take up room.

If you could just click on them and 'learn' it, which uses up the item, and then you would know it from then on, that would be awesome. And more people would go out of their way to collect such things.

Fair enough, lol. I was just trying to be funny. But an evil guide would more be someone who was educating new players on being evil characters. Since these are valid alignments, there will need to be such guides. And I see people have already volunteered to take apprentice bandits and such.

I'm using the phrase "Zen Gaming" because I read about this in the developers blog for the Stargate MMO (which unfortunately was cancelled), however the article and term were still sound.

MMO's are social environments. It's quite common for players to log into the game and jump around in circles and just chat, or look for something to do other than going out into the "wilderness" to attack monsters or other player, or go foraging for resources to craft.

This being said it's good to have other pursuits, or fun things for characters to do in the game (and even more so in a sandbox MMO environment). And this doesn't have to be isolated to creating one sort of "mini game" for players to do. It's always nice for the devs to have a lot of options, or to keep adding things.

It could be a number of small things, like having a functioning chess or checkers board in an inn, 2 players could sit down and play a real game.

Another very popular one is badges and achievements in games. Which can be quite extensive from numbers of quests completed, monsters kills, num bers of types of monsters killed, how much damage you've dealt/taken/healed, exploration. City of Heroes/Villains had the most fantastic badge/achievement system I've seen in an MMO. I would log in and just spend time exploring and badge hunting. And making achievements badges that you can look at in a characters info (like certain badges look different, instead of just listing player has done 'x' achievement is cooler. It's a small touch, and a small picture, but people love it).

Other examples, Guild Wars 2 has jumping puzzles hidden around the world. People love trying seeing if they're able to jump of to weird places in a game environment. I didn't even read about jumping puzzles, I found them completely by accident trying to figure out if I could jump up to a certain place. Then I was like "WTF is this hidden place?!", and called my buddies to come look. Stuff like that is cool.

Even fishing. I love fishing in MMO's. But most fishing is just boring and bland. The dev's could put more effort into it, make a fishing mini game. Give us different types of bait, and tackle, fishing rods, etc.. Put more in than just pull up the rod when you get a bite. Remember it's the small things. I would love if they put in more detailed fishing in the game.

I'm sure there are many other ideas that can be added to the game as fun distractions for players when they are not "Xping" (And I know that advancement works differently here, I just used that as an example of the type of main activity).

Some MMO's have added collectible card games into their game even. If that's too much you could add decks of cards.

In original Everquest I used to play Gem's all the time. At first it was when I waited for my mana to regen as a wizard, then I just played. I believe one of my characters still holds the high score for the plane of knowledge for all of everquest (I had a friend logged in a bit over a year ago on a different server look, and my score from over 7 years ago was still in first place).

The more depth you add the better. The dev's don't have to stop at adding one thing.

Some MMO's have more emote animations than others, dances specific to races, jokes you can tell, or things your character can say. These are usually embedded into the character. Sometimes you can do a quest and get an item that does something like launch fireworks, but that takes up bag space. And though I may still wish to do this cool new action, I don't want to sacrifice all my bag space for quirky or fun things I can do.

It would be nice if there were ways to learn to learn additional animations, or things your character would say out loud in game. Whether through quests, or finding a place to purchase the lesson in game. When you type /dance , or go to a menu and choose the emote dance, wouldn't it be cool if you had more options. What if your character took dance lessons, to be able to do other dances.

This can just as easily be applied to other actions. Maybe you went to the bards guild to learn this, or some songs to sing / play, or different jokes.

Sure I understand that there will be a number of default things that everyones character can do, however I would like if there were more in the game that you could aquire beyond the ones that you start with. People love stuff like that, I've heard it called Zen gaming (and I should make another thread on it). There are many articles on it for MMO's, different types of games or pursuits you can do in an MMO besides the main game of going out and hitting a monster over the head for xp.

I don't want to have to sacrifice bag space or carry items around to do cool things I find in game. Perhaps if items that exist that shoot off fireworks, or make a rainbow appear around you, or whatever else exist in game, you can right click on them and "learn" it. Then have another game menu or window you can pull up that has all the ones you've collected. You know 'X' dance, or joke, or action. People would go out of their way to collect stuff like this just to be able to do it, even though it's just cosmetic and social.

Do we all have to be good guides? Can there be evil guides too?
It's like rolling the dice. You have an 80 percent chance of something good happening to you when you enter the queue for a guide... and a 20 percent chance of learning the game through the school of hard knox. But they don't tell you what you rolled.

You also have to realize that a specific settlement or town may not be aligned to just one god's religion. There are many cities or settings in d&d and pathfinder where you'd find a number of different temples to different gods in a city. The settlement may be aligned with a specific Pantheon as oposed to just one good. A pantheon of gods works together, and has gods that cover a variety of needs, occupations, and concepts that are used in a community.

In the example of the greek pantheon(I don't know all the d&d gods off the top of my head, so I'm using a real world example I'm familiar with) in the "crafting" areas of the settlement you would likely find shrines and perhaps a temple to Hepheastus. In the warriors guild or adventurers guild you'd probably find a temple or shrines to Ares and Athena. And so on.

And I know that clerics and paladins, and some other classes that have access to divine spells get the largest direct impact from religious choices, but all religions have followers. It would be good if there were some affinity bonuses for people of the same religion. Perhaps helpful divine spells from a Divine caster of a specific religion work a little better on followers of that religion.

Some games like Everquest 2 for example allowed players to align with a religion even if they were not clerics and have shrines in their homes, and you could sacrifice magical items (green or better) to your god for some favor, which could be used for a variety of religious blessings or miracles based on some level of faith or rank you had in the religion and how much favor you currently had as well with your god.

There are a lot of good ideas that could be used. Though I am curious about divine casters that choose to worship a concept or alignment instead of a specific diety. In the tabletop game there are rules for that, but will there be rules in the online game?

If I collect 7 goblin balls, can I summon the eternal Goblin and get a wish?

Well "enchanting" or creating magic items should be similar to how it's done in tabletop , not in other mmo's. Like someone who has no magical aptitude at all shouldn't be able to create magic items.

In the table top game it requires the proper feats, and an item of sufficient quality, a certain level of magical aptitude, knowledge of the spells that pertain to the enchantment being given, and the right materials to create the enchantment. I think that the devs should keep it along those lines. If you're going to make an item that gives a bonus to a specific stat you must have the ability already to cast a spell that gives a bonus to that stat. Then the bonus given a formula based off of your level of magical aptitude with that type of magic.

The original everquest had a guide program to. They weren't GM's but they were people who had to be approved by SOE, and there was an application process, and there was a guide ranking system. If you proved yourself a good guide, you would be given a little more power and leeway. They were overseen by the GM's, or someone in public relations.

I also believe you had to have a guide character you logged into as well, so you weren't just flagged with Guide on your main. This also created a way to monitor what you were doing as the guide. I'm not sure if it was linked to your own account, or if they created a new account you had to log into as the guide character.

Neutral means you act naturally in any situation? Good and Evil are the nature of characters with those alignments, if they act good or evil that is acting naturally for them. Buri your definition and advocacy of neutrality just sounds like you're the type of person who doesn't want to have to abide by alignment restrictions, you'd rather just do whatever you want and not have to worry about adherence. But that's up to you, some people just aren't able to keep their role playing restricted to certain guidelines, and that's why we have alignment infractions.

Fast travel as Ryan wrote works just fine, especially with the ability to pull people out of fast travel(also if you would have the ability to end your own fast travel in the middle), that can be dealt with. It would be instant travel that would seriously wreak havoc on the game.

Logging out doesn't matter, because when you log back in you'll still be stuck in the same area where you broke the law and that you need to get out of. Also if we're taking my point into account with this, even if there person then logs back in and makes their way out of the area that they're a wanted felon inside of, they're still restricted to conventional movement. Since the character in question can't blip across the world, they may stay nearby because of a number of other factors that could be virtual economic centers, or environmental content suitable to their play style and they may not know where to easily locate other such locations. If they could instantly travel around the world, they would be able to more easily find other places that would be suitable for them, that they could use to avoid the consequences of their actions.

If you kill neutral people and Elves because of who they are, then you are evil. You can try to justify it all you want- the choice to justify anything shifts you towards chaotic.

That's an incorrect line of logic. If I was chaotic I might kill these select people some of the time, and other times I would kill others or maybe not kill at all. The fact that I'm sticking to my guns and following a strict reaction based off of rules leans towards lawful. And who cares if it's evil, I never said that I was good. Evil, or Good, atleast it's a side. Were I good, then I would just choose not to associate with the two peoples in question.

In games like WoW there are central cities that everyone goes to and travels from daily. For example, if you're Alliance you'd be in Stormwind, and people go to and from there many times per day all the way out to the higher content.

In PFO there will be player settlements farther out in the wild. People will create settlements near content, and players won't have a need to travel across the world multiple times per day. You will have things to do while you are traveling or progressing out into the wild, you could be ambushed by bandits or other encounters. It will not be boring.

Also if you work for a player kingdom enforcing the law, or if you are a bounty hunter (as I previously brought up), how could you track down players who have prices on their head or have broken the law if they can travel across the world instantly. That sort of screws over the track ability. If they know they have broken the law so badly in an area, they just teleport away without having to make their way out of the area naturally, then they're away without any consequences. If they teleport to somewhere where you can't collect the bounty without becoming a criminal yourself without having to legitimately get away, that totally destroys that system the dev's wanted to put in.

If you're forced to move around without the benefit of fast travel, then you will also be forced to think before you act about seriously having to deal with the consequences of your actions. If you could break the law in real life then teleport to a non-extradition country instantly, don't you think more people would do that?

Or you could have areas that are of equal difficulty on completely different sides of the game, they have different types of resources available in these areas. You don't need to take the long trek to travel across the game regularly between the two areas, you could stay in one. However a character who is willing to travel between the areas could sell his wares for more. The difficulty in the travel, and the time needed to transport the goods adds to the value of the resources. Let alone if the player needed to hire guards for his caravan, or purchase maps, or whatever else he had to do to get the resources in the first place. These are the sort of things that create a virtual economy in a sandbox world.

Yeah, Dwarves are just short human's, and you picked a side ;)

You stand for the murder of all beings of a certain alignment whether or not they deserve it.

Oh, they deserve it. And that's what they get for not picking a side. I will not be sniped by a fence sitter who is hoping that the people with opinions who are actually doing stuff will up and eliminate each other or weaken each other enough that they can stroll in and reap the spoils.

I'm role playing prejudiced against neutral people... that's right I said it... and I'm fantasy racist against Elves too.... so you're all on the list as well :P

The game is still playable even with it taking a long period of time to move around.

In games like wow, there are main cities back near the beginning of the game, so people use those as central commerce points, and travel between them and other higher level zones that are far away.

If there are other player settlements or npc settlements that are farther away from the starting areas, stronger characters will congregate near them, and travel out from those areas, instead of making constant unneeded transit around the world multiple times per day.

There are other things that could also be done to help this, you could take ideas from different games. Have your character anchored to a player party before you log out, so it though it isn't in game, it essentially "follows" your other party members around, then when you log back in, you log in with your friends.

And I don't think that you're going to be bored if you have to worry about being killed or ambushed by other players or npcs or monsters while you're traveling. I'm not saying to not add in mounts to travel faster, I'm just saying that instant teleportation wouldn't be good.

People would adapt.

The developers are concerned about people absorbing and finishing all of their content in a short period of time. You think that they should compromise on this point where they weren't willing to compromise on character progression because of the same reason? People only truly appreciate something that they've had to earn. If it's handed to you on a platter and made easy, it becomes boring.

If I'm policing my territory, or a bounty hunter for a kingdom, and hunting down criminals who have violated laws, and I go to track them, but they are teleporting all over creation, I'm not going to have much luck. However if they're forced to move around conventionally, that is a completely different game.

People of higher level will congregate in specific areas, and there will be large trade centers that develop because of geography that way. Because it is the best place to have them due to environmental factors. Lower level areas will be full of lower level characters, to see a big bad higher level character won't be as common. Certain goods will naturally flow to certain areas. Granted there will be people who go out of their way to travel, since it's hard. They'll hire guards for caravans, or escorts through nasty areas to move their goods, the economy will work much better.

If you could just go where ever you wanted, or go to an auction house and purchase something where the guy who put it up was on the other side of the world, the virtual economy wouldn't be as good.

Any form of instant travel will ruin the game. People who are complaining saying that they wouldn't enjoy the game if it took time to travel somewhere have been spoiled but existing mmo's that have instant and fast travel networks setup in the game.

One of the main features of this game is going to be virtual communities and virtual economies. You could have an auction house, however removing fast travel and removing an all encompassing auction house will help the economy grow. Large areas of commerce will develop where players show up to trade their goods. If it takes significant time to travel across a world, and you go to purchase goods at an auction house, or in a bazaar like area where players have set up shops then it introduces another good factor into the economy.

Goods from far away places become worth more. Players who set up trade routes, and are willing to take the long treks involved to far away territories and get goods which may be plentiful there, but not plentiful where they are selling them, will then be able to influence the market. resource "A" may be plentiful in region "1" and sell for not much coin, however in region "5" this good may be very rare and therefore can be sold for much more money.

Sure everyone likes convenience. I wish that I could step out of my house and teleport anywhere that I wanted in the world. However once I can do that a significant portion of reality will be taken for granted. Far away places that you always wanted to travel are just as close as the corner store, they no longer have as much value for you because they are easily accessed. It totally removes supply and demand out of the equation for a number of issues. Instant travel would completely reform our economy. Think of all the implications. So yes, it would be nice for us, but it would completely spoil us. It's the same in a game, it's just like using cheat codes. You can do everything you want super easy. Instant travel is a game cheat code. Adding an element of not only time but also the difficulty of travel gives worth to travel. How much of a game environment in any given game do most people skim over just to get where they want to be?

I implore the developers not to add instant or even significantly fast travel into the game.

Imagine that you don't have a built in instant travel system, or auto mapping system. You actually have to go out there and figure out where you're going, or purchase a map that doesn't have a magic dot telling you where you were...

When you were able to actually do something, it would be an accomplishment. Even the skill system in this game is being designed so that players will not devour it in a matter of days. It's being based similar to the Eve skill system, one that takes time to use. So no matter how many monsters you bash over the head or how fast you do it, or how much of a life you don't have, you cannot simply devour the content and be done with it instantly. Why should the developers compromise this value in the travel system when they are painstakingly going out of their way to stop this from happening with character development?

Some people of this alignment may just fence sit and not want to be involved with anything, however an adventuring character is not of this sort. An example given in the 2nd edition players handbook about a true neutral character (a druid in this case): "a typical druid might fight against a band of marauding gnolls, only to switch sides to save the gnolls' clan from being totally exterminated."

Characters like this can never be relied upon, and they will and must betray you as soon as you have the upper hand over an opponent. Now granted that as I said that everyone of this alignment may not react this exact way. The truth boils down to the fact that these characters are not true to anyone or anything. So in a role playing environment instead of waiting for the chance to let them betray me, I will kill them on sight. I would rather have someone who has a defined set of values that is predictable whether or not they are on my side (atleast I know where I stand with them), than a true neutral character. Now you may disagree with me, and that is your right. But if you're a true neutral character and I see you, atleast you know how I'm going to react. Because I have a stance, and I stick to it.

I agree with some of the statements about instant travel. I think that mass implementation of fast travel in MMO's ruined a lot of games. I miss the adventure of having to travel. Instant travel and other things added for "convenience" in a game make the game seem much smaller than it actually is. People may like the option of being able to go somewhere fast, but it eventually spoils them.
In everquest the Spires of Luclin weren't as bad, because they were on 30 minute timers and you could get killed by other players while you were waiting for a spire, though it was seriously pushing it, unfortunately they had to add it unless they were just going to put in one access route to the moon. However the plane of knowledge comletely ruined that game.

Are there any plans to add any extra UI tools into the game. When I first played Eve I was amazed that they had the foresight to add the simplest tools into the game, that were so useful. The ability to use a calculator, and keep notes inside of a game, or use a spreadsheet was so awesome. I think that more MMO's should do this.

You could even have an animation of a character pulling out an abacus, or writing in a book as optional, though I imagine that would be a social emote that a character should start instead of just doing it every time they started using these tools automatically.

I also like the idea of maps not being static. In pretty much every MMO you can pull out your map, and you have the map of the world automatically... your character didn't purchase it anywhere. The map fills in when you go places automatically. But you haven't actively told your character to add anything to the map, and your characters doesn't have the appropriate skills automatically to do this. And everyone's maps are all magic and show where they are instantly. I'd think that would be a pretty expensive magic item, a magic map that shows where you are and automatically maps any location that you've been to? wtf...
Players should have to purchase maps and figure out where they are on the map.

Maybe that's just me missing the old days without instant travel everywhere in a game, and having everything spoon fed to you. People appreciate things when they have to work for them. I have epic stories from back in the day of oldschool everquest of trying to meet my buddy who started in freeport when I started in Qeynos. There weren't maps in the game or instant travel. It was an adventure just to meet up with each other, and figure out how to get to each other. And it was fun. At some point we realized that we could find maps of places online, but we printed them out, and the paper we were holding didn't have a magic dot telling us where we were. There could be map merchants in the game, or characters with cartography skills that made maps and sold them.

With other UI tools you could add all sorts of things to maps too, you could hyperlink information from a document or spreadsheet onto them. I'm curious what everyone else thinks about these ideas.

Fair enough, and a true statement ;)
Are you guys going to share which middleware solution that you've chosen?

You could tie a number of things into a reputation system. And evil person can still be honest and keep their word, among other things. And acting within the bounds of your alignment and other restrictions that you have placed upon yourself. Like if you for example complete contracts, or if you join some society and work within the rules of the society. Or join a religion and follow the rules of your religion.

On a separate alignment note: For the record , like in D&D, if I see anyone with a True Neutral alignment... I will kill them on sight. True Neutral characters will betray you if you start winning.

Also, Chaotic Neutral is the cheaters alignment, for those people who can't play within alignment restrictions and just want to be able to do whatever they want.

Religious structures like that of a fort would be good too. I'm also just saying that it would be nice if there was a game mechanic that players could join a religion. Any of the gods present in the game would have a religion tied to them, so to be a cleric or a paladin you would need to be a cleric or a paladin of a specific god. And other players who weren't using religious class based skills could also join for other reasons too.

Plenty of games have dieties in them... people raid and kill them. I meant religion as organizations that you can be members of and do stuff for. Maybe even some sort of religious influence system too. Since you can have player settlements and kingdoms, perhaps you can also influence and control areas through religion in a different way as well as through diplomacy and force.

Alot of MMO's and other games go with the Unreal 3 engine, speed tree and a few other things thrown in. Though the Unreal 4 engine is supposed to be released this year. They gave a demo of it at the 2012 GDC.
Here's the demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvfn1p92_8

I know that it is a touchy subject in MMO's, but I'd like to see a religion system in Pathfinder Online. All the table top RPG's have religion. Other MMO's have clerics, paladins, and priests, but is anyone ever a member of a church? They had religion in Everquest, and I thought that it worked very well.

You don't have to be a member of a clergy to be a member of the church. And this could add a new layer to the game. If you could build churches in player settlements, or out in the boonies. You could have religious sway in areas. Your patron God could gain more power. There are so many aspects that could be put into the game for following and being a member of specific religions. Put in a tithe system and religious blessings and favor.

Of course a character who has skills in the tree of a religious based class like a Cleric or Paladin would likely be required to be a part of a specific existing religion, and likely have more sway in such an organization, but that doesn't mean that everyone else can't be part of it either. All religions need followers. And even in real life there are plenty of religious zealots that push church politics and such that aren't priests at all.

They should implement a system sort of like Hackmaster did, the Honor stat. This stat was a measure of your compliance with the dictates of your alignment and class restrictions. People with high honor weren't necessarily good, and people with low honor weren't necessarily evil, because good and evil characters could just as easily follow or not follow the restrictions that they are supposed to be bound by.
Now this stat wasn't solely based on alignment, but it was a factor. It was a reflection of whether you were following your alignment restrictions, the tennants of your patron god, your classes restrictions, how you interacted with npc's, and also the people you hung around with. If you hung around with people with higher or lower Honor, your stat would start averaging and shifting towards whatever the group average was. So this was also a reason to be careful with who you associated with on a regular basis.

Alot of games didn't really have proper punishments for people who didn't follow the restrictions placed upon them. With this stat that essentially monitored all of these infractions, there could be more consequences. Because you can always cast a spell to see what someone's alignment is, but how do you know if they've always been that alignment? Or how do you know if they have a billion alignment infractions? With this other stat (and as I said, please note it's not just based on alignment), everyone in the world had a sense of this stat whether they knew what your alignment was, and they would treat you accordingly. And the God's would lay the smack down on people who swayed too far in any direction. If your Honor was too low, or too high (which would be stepping outside of your station in life... but the system was complex).

And I do realize that this is a stat from another game system, but the Hackmaster system was essentially ad&d with some tweaked rules, and this honor stat makes a lot of sense. Or atleast implementing something similar.