Goblin Squad Member
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Though it might seem premature to talk about helping new players so long before EE even begins, I think it prudent to start identifying players who have an interest in doing so. Past experience has taught me that sandbox games tend to have steeper learning curves than theme park games and I expect PFO will not be an exception to that rule. With unique features such as settlement construction, escalations, a truly player driven economy, and randomly appearing dungeons, plus a deep skill-based system, alignment and reputation, flags, and much more, there will be plenty of questions that budding PFO players need answered.
Knowing that I plan to spend a good portion of my time helping new people, those who know of my intentions have suggested that I found a CC based on the Eve University model. However, I have no interest in being the leader of a CC nor governing a settlement. Neither do I believe that those who wish to help should be asked to join an exclusive group to do so. I am aware that most people who will desire to help new players will also wish to fully experience PFO for themselves - adventure, craft, participate in a settlement, etc...and they should - it will make them more knowledgeable helpers. Even I wish to spend time planning community events and harvesting, which is why I would rather not be pigeon-holed into running something as time consuming as the Eve University.
What I propose instead is a network of players committed to volunteering at least a portion of their play time to this activity. They can continue their membership in whatever CC they belong, perhaps even calling upon that organization to help assist them in their work. Though these volunteers will likely want to be well versed in the mechanics of the game, by remaining affiliated with their regular CC's/settlements/kingdoms, they can network with other established players to help where needed in the education of newcomers. Don't know enough about skill "X" to answer the new player's question...just call on your CC mate who is a master in that skill and doesn't mind mentoring for a bit.
These volunteers would thus be networkers within the PFO community - hubs of community knowledge that new players can access to either gain the information directly, or be pointed to those who can. After all, as the saying goes, no one can know everything, but the intelligent person knows where to find the answer. These helper volunteers could be that person for the newbies of PFO.
As an aside, I think an on-line source of information would also be very helpful. Perhaps a wiki or website such as PFO Fan - a one-stop site for new people to access blogs, useful forum posts, and guides written by community members. Perhaps GW already plans to provie such a resource, but if not, I have found such sites very helpful when aiding new players.
If PFO is going to grow its player base from the niche market of its kickstarter to a viable competitor with games such as Eve, we the community need to be helpful ambassadors for those new faces. I certainly think such a network of helpers would be one way to grow the game. I have seen often enough in other games that a helpful hand extended to new players makes a very lasting impression - one that promotes a sense of belonging, and in turn, grows and strengthens the community as a whole.
I welcome your suggestions and, hopefully, a few offers of participation.
Hobs
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm planning on some portion of my time spent in training/helping, though in what role depends on the shape of the game.
I'm wondering if there will be space for group gathering operations near the starter towns, to get the new players grouping for that kind of task. It also provides a recruitment point for settlements and CCs. Any new player joining in a group dig might be interested in heading down the road and joining a more permanent organization.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They are not exactly RPG, but the kingdom style games (e.g. Evony) have two systems to protect new players: 1) a series of pages to help establish the initial kingdom start; and 2) give a protection from PvP for an initial period. The guide pages continue well into the game, but players learn there are more than one way to play the more advanced strategy..
Joining into alliances was the best way to avoid PvP, but players could change alliance .
I would be happy to try and put a few hours to helping Hobs if that is I have any skills in game which may need explaining to new players that is of course. As we talked about last night till we know a lot more we do not know where the complex parts are likely to be.
I plan on being mainly a merchant crafter however mainly so it is possible I can help along those lines a little
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, thank you all for responding.
Urman - Dario recently posted in another thread a quote from Ryan which stated that beginning players would find it relatively easy to do entry level harvesting so as to acquire needed materials for crafting. I am assuming that means that there will be areas for harvesting relatively close to starter towns. I think escorting a group of beginners on a group dig such as you suggest, and perhaps arranging for protection from the monsters stirred up by a harvesting camp, would be a fine experience for new players.
Lam - I'm uncertain what new player protections, if any, GW plans to provide. If a limited PvP invulnerability were offered, I would suggest that it only be available on the first character of your account, rather than as a timed period placed on every new character. I could see more experienced players abusing this function were it the latter.
Marlagram - Limited game time is why I would rather not turn a network of helpers into a more formal CC. I don't want participation to feel like an obligation (many guilds often require "active members"). Rather, whatever time you can offer is time that will certainly be valued by the new player you assist.
Pagan - As in our PFO Fan TS session, you make a good point. It is difficult to say what exactly we will be helping with until we know more about the game. I think EE is when those who wish to help will learn firsthand where the roadblocks to learning will exist. At least by finding the interested helpers now, we can put together whatever helper infrastructure we deem necessary (contact info with each other, perhaps a website, common TS, etc.), and from there, plug in the particulars as we learn them.
@Hobs
Totally agree with getting a list of people now, I was just remarking I did not know if the skills I plan on training would be worthy of teaching as yet :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seeing as we have plenty of time to kick around such considerations, here are a few topics about which I welcome your thoughts:
1. Name
The community will certainly find it easier to direct new players to a willing helper if we have a name for the helping group. If a name from Golarion lore exists for such a group, I would be interested in hearing it. As for what the actual helpers should be called, past experience in this work tells me that new players often have no knowledge of a game's existing lore, so something simple and logical would be best - perhaps guides, helpers, companions, mentors, etc. I can easily envision a new player getting on one of the PPC chat channels and asking, "Is there a guide on duty in *insert starter town*?"
2. Identification
How will helpers be identified. In a game where being lured outside of town can mean death and looting, new players will be understandably leery of those who offer to guide them on a harvesting trip like Urman has suggested. If CC names are going to be visible, a unique helper CC name would work, though again, I do not wish to make a CC (I don't want people to have to leave their regular CC/settlement/kingdom for this and if CCs are going to be limited to several dozen members, I would hope more than several dozen people might eventually want to participate, at least part time). Suggestions?
3. IC or OOC?
The question is not so much will helpers be IC or OOC, but will the group/network helpers belong to be an IC or OOC group? I assume "tells" and "party chat" will be available for helpers to use so that even full-time role-players such as myself can help others with topics like game mechanics and not be forced OOC while doing so. The question here is, will this network of people exist IC in the game or is it strictly an OOC service? I can see benefits to both.
4. How Might GW Help Helpers?
I am hoping, as with other games, that there will be a "help chat" channel. This would be an excellent way for new players to receive answers from anyone in-game. Likewise, it would be a way for them to page a helper and set up a meeting.
Could there be a "helper" tag that you could turn on when "on duty" and off when you wish to play your own game. True, this could be abused, so what rules could a game mechanic attach to its use to avoid such abuse? We might even kick around the proposal for a "helper flag", but I'm not certain what abilities it would grant (if any) and if it would be something that people would be willing to sacrifice their other long term flags to use. I think helping new players would be as valid a reason for gaining reputation as any other flag, but then, people who like to help do so for its own sake. The reward is in nurturing the new player, and thereby, the growing community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hello, Hobs! You and I had a bit of discussion on the Golden Flask's board about this (sorry again about hijacking your guild site, Virgil), so this is just the public reiteration that you can count me in. I believe very strongly in having a close-knit community working together to make the game experience great for everyone, and that should start with helping and welcoming very confused new players. I'm not sure what I'll be expertly advising new players about - "Run away! Run away!" or "how to die gracefully" maybe? - but that's less important at this point than having a group of people lined up. On your specific questions:
1. Name
I'm new to Pathfinder, and I suspect a lot of new players after Early Enrollment will be too, so I'd strongly prefer keeping it simple and non-lore-specific. Guides or mentors has a nice ring.
2. Identification
I like the idea of having a second tag. I'm hesitant to ask GoblinWorks to formally endorse it, but if they granted the first set of guides with a secondary "guide" floaty title and alliwed current guides to nominate new ones as needed, that would be the best route, I think.
Unless we can belong to multiple chartered companies. In which case we may want to think about that just for the naming ability.
3. IC or OOC?
I think overall, OOC is best. Not all new players will be roleplayers, much less full-time roleplayers, and as the purpose here is to help them, we should meet them on their comfortable ground without adding any perceived "oh God, do I have to roleplay this?!" pressure.
Inter-guide interactions, though... that opens up so many interesting RP opportunities, especially as many of us will be from completely different settlements, alignments, etc., that I definitely want to keep that possibility open.
4. How Might GW Help Helpers?
Still thinking about this one...
One idea for you Hobs is to run regular recruitment fairs. Each settlement that wishes to can supply 3 representatives. A representative can then be available in each of the 3 npc starter towns at the time the fair is on to talk to potential recruits, explain what their settlement or chartered company is about etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love this idea and I think, if done properly, will help this game achieve the greatness it has the potential of achieving. I, hereby volunteer my services, on a varying to-be-determined amount of time, to instruct and answer questions to those concerning the "darker" ways of this world. I am even up for demonstrations upon requests. <evil grin>
To answer the questions above....
1) Name: I agree that any of the proposed names (guide, mentor, ect) should be sufficient. While I would love something lore based, I completely understand the need to make it universally simple.
2) ID'ing the "helpers": A floating "flag" would be useful, though I am not sure how to implement it without some sort of abuse being almost guaranteed. While the university idea is cool, I agree that it would be a lot of work and effort for a goal that might not be in enough people's interest to make it worth wild. I am thinking a list, or at the very least a channel server wide, would maybe work. A list being posted somewhere, maybe even in game where help can be requested by those willing to provide it (hense being on the list.) The in game channel would have to be monitored and/or controlled to where people don't spam it for ANYTHING, especially trade spams and the like.
While I completely understand the fear of being lured out of town, I would ask to the community as a whole that this be curbed. Now, please understand that this does not mean that a guide taking a few new players out into the woods to teach them to hunt, and they come across a group of bandits, that they should get a free pass. After all, bandits are part of the game and everyone needs to learn to deal with them. Heck, I would even be ok with a few of the new guys who are interested in playing "bad guys" speaking up and changing sides. How is that for a new player's initiative? Maybe that will be one of the ways we bandits grow our numbers? But I digress, I think there should be some way to list or "know" who is willing and able to help at a given time. The idea of asking in the help channel "Any available guides online and able to help?" is a great idea.
3) IC vs OOC: While I see the need and appeal of both, I think that the combination of new player and helper should decide. If the helper is an avid PRer, I could see a greeting or some sort of RP interaction, where the new player, if uninterested, could simply state so and OOC would commence in Party chat or something. Some things are easier to explain, especially using game terms, in OOC, but for those who love to RP and new players who also enjoy a good RP, nothing would make the game more fun than learning through RP. Mentor taking a student as they hunt through the woods, or how he tells the student to run as he holds off the bandits? long story shot, I see the need and benefit of both, so I don't think it should be set in stone. Let those involved decide.
4) How can GW help the helpers: I have ideas but I can punch abusive holes into each so I will hold them back until I have better ones. In the end, any help will be greatly appreciated and beneficial to all parties involved, helper doing the help, new guy getting the help, and GW for making all players happy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One idea for you Hobs is to run regular recruitment fairs. Each settlement that wishes to can supply 3 representatives. A representative can then be available in each of the 3 npc starter towns at the time the fair is on to talk to potential recruits, explain what their settlement or chartered company is about etc.
Not a bad idea at all. Say once a month or every season or so. I like it. Expect to be robbed heading to each town. <evil grin> After all, us bandits need to "recruit" too LOL
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Goblin Squad Member
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4. How Might GW Help Helpers?
I'm not sure that they need to do anything special for self-described helpers. Rather, the devs should consider how people might organize on a temporary basis.
For example, production facilities: new players might be able to go out on their own and cut timber from nodes. Or a group of them can set up a logging camp. But how does that grouping work? Is it easy for me to give permissions for people not in my CC to work in my camp? Is it easy to track their participation so I can pay them for their effort, or give them a share of the logs cut? What about the new players acting as guards - is there an easy way to see their participation?
That doesn't just apply to new players. Many settlements will have gathering operations happening in outlying hexes; they probably could use tools to allow non-allied workers and guards to help.
Another thing that can help new player (and old players) is good web tools for sharing information. I played A Tale in the Desert years back and the web resources were great. Player and guilds had a huge ability to provide detailed information across the game's website. It seemed more than a wiki - it was seriously tied into the game's social network structure. (Or maybe I was just impressed at the time; it was long ago).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think two prudent questions to ask are how will we establish that list of helpers and where will it be available?
My concern with membership is on one hand that I would want anyone who has a desire to help to be able to do so. However, as soon as helpers are a trusted fixture in the community, there will be griefers who wish to pose as helpers. What membership criteria or recommendations, if any, should be required?
As to the second question, where would be the best location(s) for posting such a list so that both new players and community members could have the names at their fingertips?
Again, if I was creating a CC, I could simply make the rules I think best, but I would rather this group be a free representation of our community and it's desires in relation to helping new players. To this end, crowdforging these issues seems the best way to go.
Indeed a useful tutorial could be from a member of the bandit fraternity. Some basic tips on dealing with bandits for merchant types and an introduction to banditry for the more criminal types.
I certainly do not think we should be omitting valid play styles from new player tutorials.
On the subject of tags etc. Personally I feel they are not needed. Just have a stickied list of tutorial times and places on the website. A small handful of contact names that are well known who can put you in contact with trusted helpers.
Someone becoming a helper just to grief would only manage it once before being struck off so I do not see that as a real issue tbh. Especially if some of the bigger organisations make it clear that anyone becoming a helper to grief will be hunted and repeatedly killed from one end of the river kingdoms to the other.
I also do not think newbie groups should be insulated from legitimate pvp action in anyway shape or form, take out a group to set up a harvest camp they should have to deal with the same problems as a more experienced harvest camp
@Avari
In Pax we already have discussed this and have full training plans in place for new recruits including an allocated mentor. I am sure other groups are putting in place their own plans to do such activities.
This is one of the reasons I suggested the recruiting fair. One of the hard things to gauge as a newbie in game is often where it would be best to go settlement wise. I felt being exposed and able to ask questions of several at the same time would be useful
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, the problem is, inherently, new players are not going to know how to check someone claiming to be a guide for authenticity, unless they're already familiar with the guides. Posting a list somewhere is only beneficial in that regard if the new player knows where to find it. That said, I still think it has merit, in case someone wants to refer a new player to a known guide.
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Goblin Squad Member
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List:. I'd like to see this on the (eventual) Pathfinder Online forums, prominently stickied. Temporarily, a list here (maybe patterned on Nihimon's helpful links?) can serve the same function as long as it gets regular bumps for prominence.
Membership criteria and recommendations:. Now we're getting into the social (as opposed to game-mechanical) reputation arena. Spitballing... We can't do anything about griefers who play a long con, but maybe requiring a helper-community vote on new volunteers? Existing helpers creating a temporary "new player" character asking for help, to see how the applicant acts? Requiring some level of forum presence beforehand?
@Avari3: If I weren't coming into the game as part of a guild pledge, I'd be taking my time looking around before committing to a settlement. For me, joining a group that really suits my personality and playstyle is paramount, and I doubt I'm a radical minority in that view. I suspect a lot of new players - particularly, moving forward, those who didn't back the Kickstarters and weren't part of the long buildup to early enrollment - will take a similar approach, sticking to the starter towns and gradually evaluating the options. Absolutely, settlements should help their new members, but there's still going to be a need for people to help players who haven't yet decided where they want to be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well there would be an in game tutorial for all the stuff that new players need in the starter areas, like how the combat works, the basics of leveling and the alignment/reputation system. Those things won't be much different from learning any other MMO.
The crazy stuff comes from the economy, hex acquisitions, war and settlement upkeep. These things will be taught to you by your settlement.
However much time you have in the starter areas (two weeks? a month?) is the time you have to figure out where you are going.
In other words I think this will take care of itself as guilds/settlements vie for new recruits in the starter areas. The successful ones will pay attention to the "draft"
@Avari
While there will certainly be a tutorial it certainly does not follow it will be sufficient. This is exactly why you need organisations such as Eve university in eve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Avari
This is one of the reasons I suggested the recruiting fair. One of the hard things to gauge as a newbie in game is often where it would be best to go settlement wise. I felt being exposed and able to ask questions of several at the same time would be useful
In every other MMO people do some research before applying to a guild. It's the same thing here a with little more importance on choosing one. People change guilds in MMO's all the time. Many players will switch settlements if they feel their first choice was not a good one. Others will have those choices forced on them as kingdoms rise and fall.
I'd say most people who play this game will belong to more than one kingdom over the course of their experience. It's part of the game's vision.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do most MMOs do a very good job of teaching grouping actions? In my experience they might do pretty good with solo actions and the barest introduction to group activity.
I'd think there is probably space for that to be taught, either by trainers/mentors or inside a CC/settlement - and like Deianira says, some people want to check out groups before they commit. But if groups have significant advantages over solo play (gathering, fighting, whatever), then new players should be introduced to it early.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I've said in several threads, I plan to be unaffiliated (no CC and no settlement membership...I'll be using starter towns as my home base). This is partly due to wanting to run events and help new players without having my motives be suspect (e.g. "You're only helping new people to head hunt for your guild," etc.). That being said, I think there is real benefit to helpers being members of their particular CCs - they can then call on CC members for help with new players (e.g. if Deianira doesn't know much about refining ore, she might be able to call on one of her CC mates to chat with the newbie about that skill). In this way, we're further networking the community.
Perhaps the best place to look for recommendations for player helpers are the CCs/settlements/kingdoms themselves. Every "guild" has a vested interest in the PFO community and in seeing the game prosper and grow. Why not look to each group's leadership for recommendations? For example, if Nihimon recommended a Seventh Veil member as a trustworthy helper, that would be good enough for me, seeing as that player's actions would not only reflect upon their character's reputation, but that of their "guild". Of course, there will be people like myself who fly solo. I'm sure we could find a means to vet these people as well. Again, I would hate to turn away anyone who truly wishes to gift their time for this purpose.
avari3 - I suspect we will have two levels of new player questions - 1.) game basics questions asked by brand new players (minutes or hours old) and 2.)game specific questions, which might be asked by players weeks into the game, but still new to particular skills, etc. Seeing as number 2 can often be answered in a help chat (which I hope PFO includes) I see much of our work being spent with the former.
I agree that settlements would be wise to invest time in training programs, and I plan to know the major "guilds" well enough to point new players towards CC's and settlements that I think would best suit their described game-play, chosen alignment, etc. Also, Pagan's earlier idea of set recruitment times or a recruitment fair would help as well.
Pagan - I agree with both points. We need to provide assistance to all play-styles, alignments, etc. This is another reason why I do not wish to create a CC, since the alignment restrictions would prohibit membership. Rather, our network will be more of a metagamed coalition of like-minded players (more reason why I'm likely going to have Hobs be neutral, so I can try to interact with all helpers, regardless of their alignment).
Second, no, I don't think new players should be shielded from the realities of the game nor provided any more protection than is available by players. That being said, "guilds" who think our service is worthwhile, might wish to provide protection when we take new players out past the security of the starter settlement walls.
Dario - Your last statement is exactly what I was thinking. Even if such a list is provided on the PFO forums, new players may not see it, but if seasoned players have a list to point new players towards, that might make our task easier.
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Thinking back to one of the earlier games in which I provided this same service, Ultima Online actually implemented a program - the Companions Program - where only new players could petition the services of a companion. Their name was placed in a queue visible to we companions, and we had the ability to teleport to their location. Though it was handy, I would not ask for such a power in PFO. I would rather see the community tackle this, and the regular characters we play, devoid of special treatment, provide that helping hand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While we're at it, is seems like those who have posted on what we should be called see the logic in keeping the name short and obvious for our calling. I am particularly partial to "guide" but I'm asking for people's preferences:
guide
companion
helper
mentor
If you can think of others, feel free. Here's my vote and rationale. I'm partial to guide because you are guiding them through the "paths" of the game, at least via knowledge, that they are uncertain about. To me, companion sounds like you will be with them for an extended period, when our services will likely not require that. Though I'm not a flowery title type, helper sounds a bit mundane. Finally, though I like mentor, it is a term many guilds already use and I would want to avoid confusion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Guide (unless we end up with several CCs using the term in their names, in which case it might prove confusing). To me this evokes an expert-in-the-field feeling (which, granted, none of us will be at everything - or anything - but we will be able to put our fingertips on the right resources who are).
I'd go with mentor as a second choice - it's a little more formal and evokes a one-on-one relationship that isn't necessarily the way things will work out, but does give the right informational feel.
I'm not fond of the other options as they're more nebulous and touchy-feely to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the Neverwinter Nights PW server I've played for years we called these folks Player Guides or PG for short. Usually they would be denoted with "PG" in their title on the forums and sometimes in game. There was also a tool you could ping to get a list of all PGs on the server or shoot your question to an available PG. They are there to help new players with questions about our server, rules, role playing, etc...
Just pointing this out as people seem to like the "Guide" title.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds like a majority of those posting here like guide, so I motion to have that selected as the "official" title.
I agree with the others that shielding new players would be a bad idea (And please don't think because I will be among those playing the bad guy, that I am bias in saying so.) I think treating new players as "adults" and not with kid gloves will help them fully understand and appreciate the game. I also think that it will help them to learn the importance of grouping and "strength in numbers."
Side note to all but especially new players reading this, bandits (atleast the Unnamed Company) are looking for new recruits as well so consider making an offer to join us should you find yourself on the receiving end of a SAD (If you like the idea of not being a goodie-two-shoes that is). We might just like the gumption you show....
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, that was supposed to be "altruistic helping of new players"
I too like guide, but the thread has only been up for the weekend. I would suggest we wait until the end of the week to decide the name, and that way, give more posters a chance to chime in. With a year+ before EE, we can certainly afford the time to be inclusive.
On the topic of identifying a helping player, I had a nice chat on PFO Fan TS with Dario and Deianira about this topic and they came up with some very good points that I would like to share:
1. Helper Tag - Identifying helpers by being able to toggle on a helper tag when on duty (similar to some games' role-play tag) could be abused as easily as used correctly. Such a tool could potentially cause more harm than good in the hands of griefers. Simply having it turned on provides the new player no more insurance that you're someone to be trusted than not having the tag.
2. Helper Flag - Similar to a tag, nothing stops a griefer from using a long-term flag to gain a new player's trust. Also, we all agreed that though helping new players might be an action worthy of long term flag reputation gain, helping new people shouldn't need to be incentivized - those who enjoy helping others find incentive enough in a heartfelt "thank you".
3. GW Provided Title - Though endorsement by GW would provide the badge of trust for new players, it would likely be seen as favoritism by non-helping players. I would hate to see this endeavor scorned by my peers. It is meant to help network the community, not factionalize it.
4. Community List - This seems our best route. Though not every new player will likely see the list before entering the game, most new players tend to seek out a game's official forums, and if not, it would still be an available aid that experienced players could point them towards.
The remaining question is where that list should reside? The first answer is here. Perhaps we could encourage Nihimon to include it in his page of helpful links? the second answer, I hope, is that any "guild" that sees this helper network as beneficial will provide a link on thier web page to Nihimon's page of helpful links.
5. Help Channel - Our last means of identification, and likely the best (certainly the most immediate in game) is the hope that GW will include a help channel. Not only could new players post their questions or request more face-to-face assistance, but helpers could broadcast that they are on duty. Such a channel could also be used to quickly network helpers so that the one geographically closest to the new player could be determined and sent to help.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, if you are altruistically helping new players, you don't need a flag. You will help others, with or without it. Said flag might also open itself up for abuse, particularly for purposes of spying.
We have yet to read what GW's plans are for earning or rewarding small amounts of reputation for helping or aiding others in the game. Some examples of activities could be: Healing, making donations, giving away free stuff or other altruistic activities. There should be a set reputation boost and a daily maximum to be earned through these good / helpful deeds.
The questions are:
How does GW measure advise / helpful hints?
How does GW detect healing or donations, in order to grant reputation?
The trade window, for the purpose of giving away items "for free" could include the alternative payment of reputation, rather than coin.
Again, can any of this be abused? Of course it can, but that applies to just about anything in an MMO. The key is how to limit the abuse or at least limit its impact. Here I believe that by keeping the amounts awarded small, and by having a daily maximum, that there might be a away to handle the potential of abuse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've listed this in the Popular Player Threads section of Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links.
It's close enough to the spirit of a Guild Recruitment thread in that it's meant to help players with a common interest come together and work towards their common goals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've listed this in the Popular Player Threads section of Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links.
It's close enough to the spirit of a Guild Recruitment thread in that it's meant to help players with a common interest come together and work towards their common goals.
Whoo hoo! Many thanks!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Whoo hoo! Many thanks!
And thank you for the bump and the kind words in the Community Greetings! -- Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bludd,
Interesting questions, though as the OP, I would rather keep this thread focused on the discussion of the guide group. I'd be more than happy to chime in on a thread about reputation rewards, though as I said earlier, I don't think any of those who volunteered thus far, or will in the future, will require any incentive to do so. I'd just rather not see the main purpose of the thread be taken off task by a potentially long-term tangent topic.
Nihimon,
Thank you for being Nihimon. Much appreciated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... Some basic tips on dealing with bandits for merchant types and an introduction to banditry for the more criminal types.
Gaedren Lamm's "Little Lamb's", possibly?
Hobs, I think that a long term Guide Flag would be the most appropriate. It can be taken on when you start your dedicated "helper" game time, and drop it when you just want to play. It could also be a flag that one has to apply to GW to get. No direct endorsement, just something like being a volunteer forum moderator. This will alert GW to your intent to be a Guide to help new players so any complaints (e.g., about long term hidden griefers) can be handled in a stronger manor.
I also think that some Guides could hire new players to start a harvesting camp. No CC required, just someone who takes responsibility to organize the camp (for an overhead fee) and have the new player camp members split the profit. This would negate a requirement to join a particular company right away. That is, if the game allow camps that are not set up by chartered companies.
And, as I have no MMO experience, I will be happy to share what I learn in EE as I would have a great deal of empathy for the situation of a completely new player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Harad,
I have several concerns with a Helper Flag:
1. Denies Other Flag Use
By using a Helper Flag, it potentially denies Guides the ability to use another long term flag. The benefit of such flags increases over time, but if you have to turn off your - let's say Traveler Flag - every time you get a request for help, you're shooting your attempted use of the Traveler Flag in the foot, especially if the Helper Flag offers no real benefit other than to identify you as a helper.
2. Potential Abuse
Having some flag specifically denoting "I'm a helper" might, to an uninformed newbie, seem like some sort of assurance that the person flying the flag is endorsed by GW or at least means to help. My fear would be that it would add extra "seeming" credibility to a griefer looking to lure newbies out of town. Such a practice might make newbies leery of anyone who flies the helper flag in the future and they may pass that sentiment on to others.
3. What Power & Should There Be a Power?
All other long term flags have advantages attached to them. What advantage would this flag grant? Several have already said that they require no reward for their services. Furthermore, what stops someone from turning on the flag, gaining the possible benefit, and not helping anyone at all?
You did suggest the possibility of applying for the flag. If GW did such a thing, I'm afraid it would be viewed by many as favoritism. Even the benefit of carrying extra clout when reporting griefers could itself be griefed - not for long, certainly (GMs would hopefully catch on) - but it doesn't take many times for the system to get a bad name and the true helpers' efforts to be negatively effected.
4. PvP
All long term flags make you available for PvP. I would hate to see well-meaning helpers have to place a target on their backs just to advertise their services.
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I think the best course of action is to present ourselves as helpful players armed with nothing more fantastic than our desire to aid others - no titles, flags, GW endorsement, etc. - just us. If we are gifted with a Help Channel, we can see requests, broadcast our willingness to assist, and network between ourselves and the community at large to best service those in need. Like nearly everything else in PFO, the success of our helping network will succeed or fail based on our determination and collective efforts. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way - it makes what we manage to create together that much more meaningful to the community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's my insane, random, and probably won't work idea of the week. Alcohol might have been involved in the creation of this idea... I make no promises. You probably need to read the whole thing as I'm writing this as it comes to me and didn't really do any sort of... whatsitcalled... outline first.
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So, you want to help poor, innocent players new to the game and unaware of the dangers that lurk within and without. The problem lies in needing a way to make sure you can't benefit from it, but how? Let us pray.
I actually mean that. Go to the temple and pray to whatever dear and fluffy lord you happen to worship for them to send someone to shepherd these fragile souls into the world.
You get locked into that location and the game spawns a representative of your deity to the material plane. You can control this, but are limited to stay within a certain area. You can't attack. You can't defend. You can't take up space. The only thing you can do is walk and talk. If the devs are particularly nice, you may get a special ability to grant a buff on brand spankin' new characters that lets them brave the wilderness a little more safely.
This restricts those wanting to help to make sure that they can't interfere. You probably need to grind some sort of rep specifically designed for this sort of thing to show your devotion to it. Everything you say is logged. And lastly, new players can flag you as a prick which sends an abuse complaint to be followed up by a community manager.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Milo pointed out, the UnNamed Company, will be more than willing to teach new players the finer points of banditry, thievery, assassination and the appropriate counter measures for bounty hunters, enforcers, champions and NPC wardens.
We will also train new players in the more detailed practices of general PVP and more specifically in the arts of ambush, settlement raids, etc.
On a personal note, I have already begun piecing together a Bandit's Guide to Pathfinder Online. I'm hoping that this guide will be very similar to the pirate, ore thieve and high sec criminals guides.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One way to help them is by awarding the deserving, in your estimation of deserving, Reputation.
One issue I have with the current proposed system, is that the award or penalty of positive or negative reputation is taken from the giver in both cases.
If you reward positive reputation, you take it from your own.
If you punish with negative reputation, you take it from your own.
Perhaps there could be a system where 1% of your reputation pool can be given or taken away without it punishing your own reputation.
Players with higher reputation can therefore give or remove a higher amount of reputation, without impacting their own reputation in any negative way.
This would encourage a "pay it forward" kind of mentality, but still limit it so that players don't run a muck with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My initial reaction, Bludd, is that large organized groups would then have pools of free rep to distribute within the group, and then their average rep just keeps going up, just from "gifting". Even 1% can be a big deal, if that gifting is done every day. Or am I misunderstanding?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the maximum positive is about 7500, then 1 percent is just 75 points. Even if we assume all 75 are given to one character, that would hardly alter their overall reputation all that significantly.
There could also be a daily limit set on how much you can give or receive via player-to-player reputation exchanges.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let me try again... Looking at the Land Rush leaderboard, the Empyrean Order has 111 members that participated in the kickstarter. I'm just using them as an example because they have a big number of dedicated members.
Let's say 100 Empyreans log on every day. Let's say they have, on average, a mid to high reputation of 2000 points. If each could freely spend 20 points a day without affecting their own reputation, then the leaders could say "today give your free points to SlothBoy; tomorrow will be Trixie's turn". 100x20 = 2000, so SlothBoy's rep grows to 4000.
If there is a daily limit, then the leadership can publish a roster indicating who gets what points. It's free rep gain however it's distributed. In MMOs, if players can game a mechanic, then someone will. If a character has to use his own rep to reward and penalize others, no new rep is created for free.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not a big fan of awarding reputation, on either side of this particular equation. On the guides' side, I don't want to be judging whether a particular new player is "worth" spending reputation on - and every guide will judge that differently, which means an inconsistent reward mechanic for new players. And on the new players' side, I don't want players to lose out on future help or goodwill if they don't think/know to "tip their server."
I'm happy to do it just for the feel-good benefits... but guides will also be gaining in social, just not game-mechanical, reputation.