I have a player who just reached 7th-level and opted to take the Leadership feat with my blessing.
He decided he wanted to make an alchemist focused witch with the Improved Familiar feat.
However, he wants to take the feat at 1st-level so that he can get Craft Wondrous Item and Master Alchemist at 3rd and 5th, respectively.
He says that "just because I have the feat doesn't mean I have to use it there is nothing in the text that says I have to use it and I would meet the requirements."
So, is it possible to take this feat at lower level, and then just use a normal familiar until you reach the appropriate level? I mean, it does make sense that just because you CAN summon an imp (or in this case an air elemental) doesn't mean you HAVE to.
What's the RAW. What's the RAI? Has this been covered before in some manner?
He says that "just because I have the feat doesn't mean I have to use it there is nothing in the text that says I have to use it and I would meet the requirements."
I don't get it. The requirements are "Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below)". How does he have a sufficiently high level to select an improved familiar at level 1? Is there a level 1 improved familiar in a book somewhere?
I see what he's trying to do, and it does work RAW that you take it at 3rd and pay GP for a higher level familiar later.
But you need to be at least third in in the first place to meet the "sufficiently high level" prereq.
If there was an improved familiar with required caster level 1 then he could take it at 1st level and later exchange familiar for a better one once reaching required caster level. The lower caster level for an improved familiar I have seen up to date is 3rd so he can't take it before 3rd level by RAW.
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you.
Note the "also". You don't have to get one of the special critters when you take the feat. The regular ones are still okay. They're all available at level one and are all of a compatible alignment (True Neutral).
So even if the feat is considered to be an obligation rather than a perk regular familiars are still an option.
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you.Note the "also". You don't have to get one of the special critters when you take the feat. The regular ones are still okay. They're all available at level one and are all of a compatible alignment (True Neutral).
So even if the feat is considered to be an obligation rather than a perk regular familiars are still an option.
True that. Sufficient high level is a requirement of specific critters from the list but regular critters do not have that requirement.
I'll allow it.
I have a player who just reached 7th-level and opted to take the Leadership feat with my blessing.
He decided he wanted to make an alchemist focused witch with the Improved Familiar feat.
However, he wants to take the feat at 1st-level so that he can get Craft Wondrous Item and Master Alchemist at 3rd and 5th, respectively.
He says that "just because I have the feat doesn't mean I have to use it there is nothing in the text that says I have to use it and I would meet the requirements."
So, is it possible to take this feat at lower level, and then just use a normal familiar until you reach the appropriate level? I mean, it does make sense that just because you CAN summon an imp (or in this case an air elemental) doesn't mean you HAVE to.
What's the RAW. What's the RAI? Has this been covered before in some manner?
Wonders if this is a hypothetical thread, but I will bite anyway.
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
He can not even select the feat without the prereqs.
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you.Note the "also". You don't have to get one of the special critters when you take the feat. The regular ones are still okay. They're all available at level one and are all of a compatible alignment (True Neutral).
So even if the feat is considered to be an obligation rather than a perk regular familiars are still an option.
That almost makes some kind of sense, but if your GM's mind is that flexible then he would probably be just as likely to allow you to take Craft Wondrous Item at level 1 anyways (and maybe have it be unusable until level 3).
That almost makes some kind of sense, but if your GM's mind is that flexible then he would probably be just as likely to allow you to take Craft Wondrous Item at level 1 anyways (and maybe have it be unusable until level 3).
Not quite the same thing. Craft Wondrous Item has a hard prerequisite of Caster level 3. Improved Familiar has a "soft" level prerequisite which depends on the familiar you take. Normal familiars can be taken from level 1.
If a home game already allows crafting feats, then taking improved familiar early is not going to be a problem. :p
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If a home game already allows crafting feats, then taking improved familiar early is not going to be a problem. :p
I disagree. Suppose you're making a level 5 character/cohort. If he has to wait to take Improved Familiar until at least level 3, then he can't take CWI and CMAA as well; while if he can take IF at level 1, he gets to have all three feats.
GM call. Rules appear to be foggy. If I was going to allow someone to take leadership, I'd probably let them do what he is trying to do. I don't usually dont allow leadership though and a lot of people don't.
What I would do, however, is make him incur the cost of switching to that familiar(wizard level*200GP). You only get one chance to get your free improved familiar, when you take the feat.
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If the cohort is human, he can take Boon Companion as his racial bonus feat. This boosts his effective witch level to 5 and thus qualifies him from Improved Familiar at level 1.
What I would do, however, is make him incur the cost of switching to that familiar(wizard level*200GP). You only get one chance to get your free improved familiar, when you take the feat.
Also sounds fair.
What I would do, however, is make him incur the cost of switching to that familiar(wizard level*200GP). You only get one chance to get your free improved familiar, when you take the feat.
I agree with this one.
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What I would do, however, is make him incur the cost of switching to that familiar(wizard level*200GP). You only get one chance to get your free improved familiar, when you take the feat.
Me like !!!
This way, I pay 200 gp at level 1 and when I am level 7 I get the Imp for free !!!
Rather than waiting for level 7 and paying 1400 gp :-)
Actually, RAW, you are right that he has to pay for the new familiar when he takes the feat (since he cannot have a familiar when he takes it, as one of its prerequisites is Ability to acquire a new familiar).
But come level 7, if he wants an Imp he has to pay for it also (1400 gp).
Just like any time he replaces his familiar.
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True that. Sufficient high level is a requirement of specific critters from the list but regular critters do not have that requirement.Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed here are also available to you.Note the "also". You don't have to get one of the special critters when you take the feat. The regular ones are still okay. They're all available at level one and are all of a compatible alignment (True Neutral).
So even if the feat is considered to be an obligation rather than a perk regular familiars are still an option.
I'd probably allow it with a switchover cost later, but RAW and RAI I'm pretty sure that "sufficiently high level (see below)" in the prerequisite line of the feat, refers to the prerequisite of the feat being a high enough level to take one of the listed familiars (3rd).
I would not allow it. Just trying to avoid a pre-req.
If the cohort is human, he can take Boon Companion as his racial bonus feat. This boosts his effective witch level to 5 and thus qualifies him from Improved Familiar at level 1.
Boon companion will not raise your effective level higher than your HD. It would have no effect in this case.
The implications of that bother you but not leadership?
Let's look at the prereqs
Improved Familiar
Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level.
Let's look at ALL the prereq text:
Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
See that "see below"? Nothing below mentions level one. Below is a chart with minimum levels for improved familiars, the lowest being three.
Could always let him use the re-training rules in UCamp to retrain some other 1st level feat (dodge) for improved familiar once he levels up enough.
Wonders if this is a hypothetical thread, but I will bite anyway.
Nope, this actually happened.
Out of curiosity, why can't they just take another feat at level 1 and wait two levels to take improved familiar at 7? Why do they need it from level 1? Are they taking a level 5 familiar, or a 7 one?
they want to take crafting feats at 3 and 5, that they dont meet the pre-reqs for at 1. Level 1 feat is the only "free" feat available.
With Improved Familiar the feat assumes you will use it when you take it, but RAW nothing says you have to get the new familiar as soon as you take the feat.
You could legally just hold on to it, but I dont see why anyone would do it since the familiar requirements are at odd levels, and you also get feats at odd levels.
edit:Basically I think the RAI is pretty clear. It would be like taking weapon focus, but not choosing a weapon to focus in. That was not the intent.
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Wait, how is the alchemist meeting the requirements of HAVING a familiar at 1st level?
The only way for an alchemist to get a familiar is by taking the tumor familiar discovery which he can't do before second level (when he gets his first discovery).
The earliest he could ever possibly qualify for any familiar enhancing feat is 3rd level.
Once you resolve that question then worry about getting an improvved familiar.
Wait, how is the alchemist meeting the requirements of HAVING a familiar at 1st level?
The only way for an alchemist to get a familiar is by taking the tumor familiar discovery which he can't do before second level (when he gets his first discovery).
The earliest he could ever possibly qualify for any familiar enhancing feat is 3rd level.Once you resolve that question then worry about getting an improvved familiar.
Tis a witch, with a focus on alchemy. Not an alchemist.
Just because a character has the ability to have a familiar doesn't mean they have to have one.
I have a Wizard who didn't pick a familiar until 5th level. There's no reason that you couldn't take Improved Familiar early in preparation for the familiar you hope to get later.
The only thing doing it that way really does is mean you effectively have one less feat until you decide to pick a familiar.
Wording has been quoted and pointed out saying that there is a prerequisite of a sufficiently high level the player is directed to reference the accompanying text/chart to determine.
That minimum level is three.
Whether you immediately use the feat or not is not the issue. Whether you have the prerequisite to take it at all, is.
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What I would do, however, is make him incur the cost of switching to that familiar(wizard level*200GP). You only get one chance to get your free improved familiar, when you take the feat.Me like !!!
This way, I pay 200 gp at level 1 and when I am level 7 I get the Imp for free !!!
Rather than waiting for level 7 and paying 1400 gp :-)
Actually, RAW, you are right that he has to pay for the new familiar when he takes the feat (since he cannot have a familiar when he takes it, as one of its prerequisites is Ability to acquire a new familiar).
But come level 7, if he wants an Imp he has to pay for it also (1400 gp).
Just like any time he replaces his familiar.
There is no cost to replacing a familiar with an Improved Familiar immediately on taking the Improved Familiar feat. FAQ.
Robert A Matthews is pointing out that since this only applies immediately on selecting the feat, a character who waits for several levels to select their new familiar, or who dismisses a 3rd level improved familiar to select a higher level option, will have to pay for it normally based on their current level - up to 3500gp for a witch taking a 7th level familiar.
Boon companion will not raise your effective level higher than your HD. It would have no effect in this case.If the cohort is human, he can take Boon Companion as his racial bonus feat. This boosts his effective witch level to 5 and thus qualifies him from Improved Familiar at level 1.
You're right, I'd used this to get an Improved Familiar for a multiclassed character with a wizard dip and forgotten that this doesn't work so well when your Wizard 1 doesn't also have 7 levels in another class...
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Wording has been quoted and pointed out saying that there is a prerequisite of a sufficiently high level the player is directed to reference the accompanying text/chart to determine.
That minimum level is three.
Whether you immediately use the feat or not is not the issue. Whether you have the prerequisite to take it at all, is.
As you can see from several posts above, things are not so clear-cut about what the level prerequisite really means.
You focus on the list given and disregard the part about still being able to get normal familiars.
The list shows all ADDITIONAL possibilities for the Familiar, and the level required for these. As several posters have already stated, you can still take the normal familiars, and the required "sufficiently high level" for these is 1st level.
A PC who gets the feat at 3-rd level can take an Imp when he hits 7-th level, something he could not do by RAW when he took the feat at 3-rd level.
How is that different from a PC taking the feat at 1st-level (with a normal familiar) and getting an improved familiar once he hits 3-rd level or higher ?
I am wondering if maybe people who feel so strongly about the "not at first level" remember the fact that the "sufficient level" prerequisite was not there in the 3.0 version of the feat and appeared in 3.5.
There is no cost to replacing a familiar with an Improved Familiar immediately on taking the Improved Familiar feat. FAQ.
Robert A Matthews is pointing out that since this only applies immediately on selecting the feat, a character who waits for several levels to select their new familiar, or who dismisses a 3rd level improved familiar to select a higher level option, will have to pay for it normally based on their current level - up to 3500gp for a witch taking a 7th level familiar.
I did not know about the FAQ. Thank you.
Disappointing really (and will be houseruled in my game) because it contradicts the RAW and I feel that getting an improved familiar is such a big boon that paying some gold for it is quite reasonable.
Wording has been quoted and pointed out saying that there is a prerequisite of a sufficiently high level the player is directed to reference the accompanying text/chart to determine.
That minimum level is three.
Whether you immediately use the feat or not is not the issue. Whether you have the prerequisite to take it at all, is.
As you can see from several posts above, things are not so clear-cut about what the level prerequisite really means.
You focus on the list given and disregard the part about still being able to get normal familiars.
The list shows all ADDITIONAL possibilities for the Familiar, and the level required for these. As several posters have already stated, you can still take the normal familiars, and the required "sufficiently high level" for these is 1st level.
Normal familiars and level 1 are irrelevant because neither are referenced by the text the phrase "sufficiently high level (see below)" directs the reader to see for clarification.
eta: Note that there is also the prereq "ability to acquire a new familiar". You have to be at least level one to do that. Reading "sufficiently high level (see below)" to mean "at least level one" is not only disregarding what the text below spells out for level requirements, it makes the third prereq redundant to the first, something not done in any other feat to my knowledge.
It just frees up his later feat slots for feats that have Level requirements, that's all. I'd allow it with the cost tacked on as has been previously suggested. I'm also a very lenient DM so that's just me.
Now a question about the situation. He just hit level 7 and is taking leadership. Is the Witch being discussed the cohort or the character proper?
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eta: Note that there is also the prereq "ability to acquire a new familiar". You have to be at least level one to do that. Reading "sufficiently high level (see below)" to mean "at least level one" is not only disregarding what the text below spells out for level requirements, it makes the third prereq redundant to the first, something not done in any other feat to my knowledge.
I understand better how you read the RAW (ie, at first level you start the game with a familiar and not with the ability to gain a familiar).
This is a stronger argument IMO than the level "prereq", since the familiar you get with Improved Familiar should technically always be of the level you are when you take the feat and never higher (because you cannot take a feat if you do not have the prerequisite). And I have always seen a more fluid "you get the familiar based on your current level, regardless of when you took the feat" approach.
Also the list is definitely not the "be all and end all" of improved familiars.
To RJ : the witch is the cohort.
What's the Valet archetype?
EDIT: Found it. We don't own that book.
eta: Note that there is also the prereq "ability to acquire a new familiar". You have to be at least level one to do that. Reading "sufficiently high level (see below)" to mean "at least level one" is not only disregarding what the text below spells out for level requirements, it makes the third prereq redundant to the first, something not done in any other feat to my knowledge.I understand better how you read the RAW (ie, at first level you start the game with a familiar and not with the ability to gain a familiar).
Apparently you don't, because you start with both the familiar AND the ability to gain a familiar should the one you start with croak.
eta:
Or you simply decide to dismiss it and gain a different one:
If a familiar is dismissed, lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.
Internet is cheaper.
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He says that "just because I have the feat doesn't mean I have to use it there is nothing in the text that says I have to use it and I would meet the requirements."
So, is it possible to take this feat at lower level, and then just use a normal familiar until you reach the appropriate level? I mean, it does make sense that just because you CAN summon an imp (or in this case an air elemental) doesn't mean you HAVE to.
What's the RAW. What's the RAI? Has this been covered before in some manner?
To recap: By RAW you can't select Improved Familiar at 1st level, because in order to select a feat you need to meet all of the prerequisites for that feat, and one of the prerequisites of Improved Familiar is "sufficiently high level (see below)". When you see below to the chart, the minimum familiar on that list requires an arcane caster level of 3rd. So, based on the current list of improved familiar options, you need to be at least 3rd level (or otherwise qualify as a 3rd level arcane spellcaster) in order to select this feat.
Having said that, Ultimate Magic has updated the Improved Familiar list at least once already, and the DM can always update it further. The only RAW reason you can't take the feat at 1st level is that there are no improved familiars with a 1st level minimum requirement. If you want to add a couple "better than a normal familiar enough to justify a feat but not so much better as to restrict it to higher level character" improved familiar choices with a 1st level caster level requirement then you're golden.
As for RAI? I donno. Personally I don't see it as particularly game breaking to allow the feat at 1st level, with the understanding that it can't be used until the character reaches a high enough level to satisfy the prerequisites. Particularly since the feat relies on a list of options that periodically expands as new books are published.
*Revives the thread.
A Witch with Rich Parents (+900 gp) could afford to pay the minimum construction costs of a Homunculus and only donate the blood.
If this happened/was allowed, then they could start play at first level with a bonded Homunculus.
Since they already have it, why not allow them to use it as a familiar via Improved Familiar?