I have seen many threads around, and I have been going around look at them as best I can, but I want to build a duelist, who uses a Scimitar and the Feat Dervish Dance.
Now the big issue is, a lot of guides say duel wield, but Dervish dance states you can not have a weapon or shield in your offhand.
I have 10 levels currently to build with and I wanted to do a Slyph, but if it is to feat intensive I may drop back down to human. (But I really wanted to do a Slyph)
I was thinking Rogue(Flank=Sneak attack) but I am not sure if that would be the most efficient way to go. So I come to the forums asking for advice since I am one who normally playes Arcane or Divine casters and those roles are quite filled.
Also, odd think...Point buy is 23....yes...23. Not 20, not 25, 23.
And do not point me to the Duelist guide here on the forums, it was not a lot of help.
Rogue isn't a good choice here. Sneak Attack works best with builds that focus on having many attacks; without that it's kinda lackluster.
If you really want Scimitar + Dervish Dance to shine, I would suggest a Magus as that's pretty much the default dex based build right there.
A fighter with 2 levels of Master of Many Styles for Crane Style could be interesting, as you need a free hand to use it anyway and it would really add to your defense, plus Fighter loves feat intensive builds; you could probably even fit in the two feats needed for Slyph to get that awesome racial flight.
That said, what do you see your character doing really? What are you trying to accomplish?
EDIT: I may have misunderstood you; do you mean the prestige class Duelist, or duelist as a concept?
Without reaching into to many obscure sources (Mainly Core, APG, UC, UM, Advanded Race Guide)make a cool Duelist style melee fighter 9Sort of that Swashbuckling swordsman Trope). I can get away with Dervish dance but I do not want to dip into to many sources beyond what was mentioned above. And I had a feeling rogue would probably not be good and fighter would work better.
Magus was almost a big plus because of the Int Dex thing working together
Edit: The prestige class
Magus could work as you'd have to go to 8 there anyway and then you'd get access to Improved Spell Recall. Here's a rough build suggestion:
Magus 8 / Duelist 2
Traits:
1. Wayang Spell Hunter (or the equivalent Magical Lineage if your DM would let you pick to traits from the same list) - Shocking Grasp
2. Magical Knack (so you have a 10 CL for your Shocking Grasp)
Feats:
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Dervish Dance
5. Dodge
5. Intensify Spell
7. Mobility
9. Airy Step
11. Wings of Air
Arcanas:
Whatever you like
Wayang Spell Hunter, where is that?
And Bigkilla, I will have to look it over. Do you still recommend the Dervish Dance feat(I would assume so)
PFSRD renamed it to Metamagic Master, but it's from Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer; it's pretty much the exact same thing as Magical Lineage except it is a regional trait.
I will see if the Gm will let me do it. I have not played with him before, but I game with his wife and a lot of his best friends so I can assume he is a cool guy. And knowing the name change to metamagic master helped me find it and figure out what it does.
Basically, it is possible by raw to get around the "one hand" thing and still get TWF....but they end up silly.
The most obvious would be to take a level of monk and use unarmed strikes. This has the problem of needing an entirely different, rather expensive enchanted item to get enhancement bonuses and such.
Another concern would be that Duelist has requirements that you do not use the other hand at all for attacks. Unarmed strike can still get around this, if you just use kicks. You can also use: armor spikes, spiked boots, and dwarven boulder helmet. Thematically...I have problems with these. It is hard to image you using these without looking silly. It works for a melee character with reach maybe, since it seems more like a last resort thing when opponents get close. Not as part of your primary attack pattern. This might be a small concern to some, but I feel it is important. Above all else, there is a problem with all of these: they lack the DEX to damage that you have with your scimitar. While you could add the agile property to them....why bother with Dervish dance at all? Just get a rapier with the agile property and you would save yourself a feat.
For being an effective duelist: I think crane style and your natural riposte work fine for getting you extra attacks. if you take these two, you will both be hard to hit one on one and you will get about 5 attacks per turn, many of which are at your highest BAB. This is better than a TWF rogue, which often only get 5 attacks at high levels since the last one would be a waste of a feat since it would be at +3 to hit from the start when facing high level threats. Also remember, if you take out a full attack's highest BAB with crane wing, you will not need as high a BAB for the Duelist parry.
Basically, it is possible by raw to get around the "one hand" thing and still get TWF....but they end up silly.
The most obvious would be to take a level of monk and use unarmed strikes. This has the problem of needing an entirely different, rather expensive enchanted item to get enhancement bonuses and such.
Another concern would be that Duelist has requirements that you do not use the other hand at all for attacks. Unarmed strike can still get around this, if you just use kicks. You can also use: armor spikes, spiked boots, and dwarven boulder helmet. Thematically...I have problems with these. It is hard to image you using these without looking silly. It works for a melee character with reach maybe, since it seems more like a last resort thing when opponents get close. Not as part of your primary attack pattern. This might be a small concern to some, but I feel it is important. Above all else, there is a problem with all of these: they lack the DEX to damage that you have with your scimitar. While you could add the agile property to them....why bother with Dervish dance at all? Just get a rapier with the agile property and you would save yourself a feat.
For being an effective duelist: I think crane style and your natural riposte work fine for getting you extra attacks. if you take these two, you will both be hard to hit one on one and you will get about 5 attacks per turn, many of which are at your highest BAB. This is better than a TWF rogue, which often only get 5 attacks at high levels since the last one would be a waste of a feat since it would be at +3 to hit from the start when facing high level threats. Also remember, if you take out a full attack's highest BAB with crane wing, you will not need as high a BAB for the Duelist parry.
So you would go with Crane Style Feat, as a Monk?
You don't actually have to be a Monk to get the style feats, just Improved Unarmed Strike.
You don't actually have to be a Monk to get the style feats, just Improved Unarmed Strike.
I get what he is saying now, Drop Dervish Dance, Use a Rapier with Agile, and pick up Crane Style which will gugment fighting defensively...I just need to pick up the Unarmed Strike Feat instead of Dervish Dance so I can take Crane Style.
I dropped being a Rogue a while ago and I am now most likely going to be a Fighter or Magus, I need to see if the GM is doing traits or not.
wWhat do you guys thing of a Free Hand Fighter(APG) Duelist, using a rapier(With Agile, of course) The free hand fighter looks nifty
I'm currently play-testing an Aasimar Dervish of Dawn with a two level dip in MOMS for the Crane style feats and the results are absurd thus far (in particular with the Aasimar's favored class option for Bards).
One question I've always had is whether or not the feat Improved Unarm Strike opens the door for you for two-weapon fighting even with Dervish Dance's restrictions? I doubt I'd use it as the build it pretty tight, but its something to consider.
well, I'm not necessarily knocking dervish dance. It can be nice just to be restricted to a specific type of weapon rather than a +2 enhancement cost one. I was mostly speaking against throwing in other type of attacks since they would require you to use both methods at once to be effective, and that can be a waste.
To get all crane style, you will need about 5 feats (improved unarmed strike, dodge, crane style, crane wing, and crane riposte.) This can.... be somewhat steep, but if you went a couple levels of fighter and a few level up feats, you could handle it. It is highly suggested, both because it is one of the few tricks that support the one handed style and because of its natural synergy with duelist style. It is also a bit funny: if you went with only full BAB classes, the earliest you could qualify for duelist would be the same level you could take crane riposte (need +6 BAB to enter duelist, you will have the +7 BAB needed for crane riposte as a non monk, and it will be an odd level so you can take it)
And Mercurial, the question on improved unarmed strike can be a bit funny. I know for a fact that monks can use their legs for the attack, which would get around the issue. But I worry that the class ability specifically mentions that they can make an unarmed strike with any part of their body, which could imply limited ways to attack normally. I am probably looking into it too much, since it probably just added in things like elbows and headbutts.
Spoiler:well, I'm not necessarily knocking dervish dance. It can be nice just to be restricted to a specific type of weapon rather than a +2 enhancement cost one. I was mostly speaking against throwing in other type of attacks since they would require you to use both methods at once to be effective, and that can be a waste.To get all crane style, you will need about 5 feats (improved unarmed strike, dodge, crane style, crane wing, and crane riposte.) This can.... be somewhat steep, but if you went a couple levels of fighter and a few level up feats, you could handle it. It is highly suggested, both because it is one of the few tricks that support the one handed style and because of its natural synergy with duelist style. It is also a bit funny: if you went with only full BAB classes, the earliest you could qualify for duelist would be the same level you could take crane riposte (need +6 BAB to enter duelist, you will have the +7 BAB needed for crane riposte as a non monk, and it will be an odd level so you can take it)
And Mercurial, the question on improved unarmed strike can be a bit funny. I know for a fact that monks can use their legs for the attack, which would get around the issue. But I worry that the class ability specifically mentions that they can make an unarmed strike with any part of their body, which could imply limited ways to attack normally. I am probably looking into it too much, since it probably just added in things like elbows and headbutts.
So if I did fighter, any particular archetypes you would recommend, I am looking them over and if I do fighter, be 7 levels of fighter(I will save Magus for another time, we are not doing traits I learned today)3 Duelist. I refuse to do a paladin because the group is very...in the middle on alignment, I just can't see a Barbarian Duelist at the moment and I do not actually want to do a monk, so I have cut most options. (Except maybe Cavalier?). So what are your thoughts on class, fighter would give me a good amount of feats to work with, and going into Crane style is going to take some real feats.
Just used unarmed fighting... Take a level of monk and you don't even need the double slice feat...
Here's a build I like. All fighter, no Duelist, no spells. This one is a Hobgoblin (+2 DEX, +2 CON, Darkvision) because a front-liner can never have too many hit points!
Quick Willie
Male Hobgoblin Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 30, touch 22, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +5 dodge)
hp 104 (10d10+40)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +6
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Scimitar +18/+13 (1d6+18/15-20/x2+2 fire) and
. . Unarmed strike +14/+9 (1d3+8/x2)
Ranged +1 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +1) +17/+12 (1d8+2/x3)
Special Attacks singleton +1, timely tip
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +11 (+14 Disarming); CMD 33 (36 vs. Disarm)
Feats Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Traits Flame of the Dawnflower, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +16, Bluff -2 (+1 to feint or create a diversion to hide), Climb +5, Fly +9, Perform (dance) +0, Ride +10, Stealth +23, Survival +5, Swim +5; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth
Languages Common, Goblin, Orc
SQ deceptive strike +3, elusive +3
Combat Gear Quick runner's shirt (1/day); Other Gear +3 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +1), +3 Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +3, Elixir of hiding, Ioun torch, Ring of protection +1, 730 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
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Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deceptive Strike +3 (Ex) +3 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Elusive +3 (Ex) +3 Dodge AC
Flame of the Dawnflower +2 damage with a scimitar on a critical hit.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Timely Tip (Ex) Disarm maneuver as a free action to remove target's shield AC for your next attack.
So if I did fighter, any particular archetypes you would recommend, I am looking them over and if I do fighter, be 7 levels of fighter(I will save Magus for another time, we are not doing traits I learned today)3 Duelist. I refuse to do a paladin because the group is very...in the middle on alignment, I just can't see a Barbarian Duelist at the moment and I do not actually want to do a monk, so I have cut most options. (Except maybe Cavalier?). So what are your thoughts on class, fighter would give me a...
I think fighter is fine. Especially with weapon training, since static bonuses to hit and damage are just gravy. The weapon master archetype might be nice since you get two sets of bonuses in the time frame you suggested. Grab some gloves of dueling and that is +4 to damage before feats, stats, etc. Of course, that is not to discount the vanilla fighetr, since armor training could make medium armor more viable on a DEX build.
A bit tight with feats, but I suppose that you could get both crane style and qualify for duelist in those 7 levels without going human. I'd worry about things like weapon focus and specialization after you set up your general build though, if only due to how tight things are.
I have looked it over, I have at level 7 I have 7 feat slots to work with (1,3,6) and for fighter 1,2,4,6.
I am thinking I am not going to bother with the slyph racial feats even though they are nice. I have heard our wizard is a fan of the fly spell.
Blueluck: That...that is terrifyingly beautiful.
Blueluck: That...that is terrifyingly beautiful.
^_^ Thanks.
.
Here's the same character with the Weapon Master archetype instead of Free Hand Fighter. I like this version a bit more. It has -1 AC, +1 Hit, +1 Damage, and gets two rerolls per day. Considering the defensive capability of Crane Style, I think that's a good trade.
At 13th level, a free hand fighter can make a disarm or trip combat maneuver against a target he threatens as a move action to push his opponent off balance. If successful, the target becomes flat-footed. This condition lasts until the target takes damage from a melee or ranged attack or until the beginning of the free hand fighter’s next turn, whichever comes first.
Weapon Master - Deadly Critical (Ex)
At 13th level, when a weapon master confirms a critical hit with his chosen weapon, he can increase the weapon’s damage multiplier by +1 as an immediate action. He can use this ability once per day at 13th level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels above 13th.
Weaponmaster Willie
Male Hobgoblin Fighter (Weapon Master) 10
NG Medium Humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 29, touch 19, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 104 (10d10+40)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +6; +3 bonus vs. effects targetting a Scimitar held by you
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Scimitar +19/+14 (1d6+19/15-20/x2+2 fire) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +13/+8 (1d3+7/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d3+7/x2)
Ranged +1 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +1) +17/+12 (1d8+2/x3)
Special Attacks reliable strike: scimitar (2/day), weapon training +2: scimitar
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +11; CMD 30 (33 vs. Disarm, 33 vs. Sunder)
Feats Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Traits Flame of the Dawnflower, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +14, Climb +3, Escape Artist +4, Fly +7, Perform (dance) +0, Ride +8, Stealth +21, Survival +5, Swim +3; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth
Languages Common, Goblin, Orc
SQ weapon guard +3: scimitar
Combat Gear Quick runner's shirt (1/day); Other Gear Celestial armor, +1 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +1), +3 Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +2, Cloak of resistance +3, Elixir of hiding, Ioun torch, Ring of protection +1, 430 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Flame of the Dawnflower +2 damage with a scimitar on a critical hit.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick runner's shirt (1/day) As swift action, take an extra move action to move on your turn.
Reliable Strike: Scimitar (2/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Weapon Guard +3: Scimitar (Ex) +3 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +2: Scimitar (Ex) +2 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
...Luecian...1,3,5,7.
I wouldn't necessarily discount getting your own fly speed when you have all your basic feats down. Besides the fact that it would save your Wizard a spell slot, you can fly all day. That means you also do not have to wait for the wizard to cast it before you go charging off against that passing dragon. You do not have to rely as much on scouting to know when you need to fly. Heck, depending on the terrain, you might be faster than some mounted characters while traveling.
But I guess that by the time you have two level up feats to dedicate to this endeavor would be around the time that flight is so much easier to use. Ce la vie.
...Luecian...1,3,5,7.
I wouldn't necessarily discount getting your own fly speed when you have all your basic feats down. Besides the fact that it would save your Wizard a spell slot, you can fly all day. That means you also do not have to wait for the wizard to cast it before you go charging off against that passing dragon. You do not have to rely as much on scouting to know when you need to fly. Heck, depending on the terrain, you might be faster than some mounted characters while traveling.
But I guess that by the time you have two level up feats to dedicate to this endeavor would be around the time that flight is so much easier to use. Ce la vie.
Heh, wow, Iforgot feats were the odd numbers...that is kind of awesome and I have another feat slot.
Im surprised no one has mentioned urban barbarian yet. They can have very high dexterity scores and their rage powers can be tailored for crit fishing with a scimitar. They also have access to other very powerful rage power suites like the superstition tree. I would say that the urban barbarian makes for an amazing dervish dancer, and it will move into the duelist prestige without too much pain.
Blueluck: That...that is terrifyingly beautiful.^_^ Thanks.
.
Here's the same character with the Weapon Master archetype instead of Free Hand Fighter. I like this version a bit more. It has -1 AC, +1 Hit, +1 Damage, and gets two rerolls per day. Considering the defensive capability of Crane Style, I think that's a good trade.** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Looking over weapon master Willie there I do have a question, where is his dodge Bonus of +2 coming from, I know one is from Dodge itself but I can not place the other. I know when fighting Defensively because of crane Style the Dodge bonus from FD is one higher (Also with having 3 ranks in Acrobatics, we get a +4 Dodge bonus to AC while fighting Defensively.) The only other sources of AC that I can see beyond armor and Dodge is the natural Armor from Amulet and the Deflection from Ring. I could just be missing something though.
Looking over weapon master Willie there I do have a question, where is his dodge Bonus of +2 coming from, I know one is from Dodge itself but I can not place the other.
It's the +1 from Crane Style.
Blueluck: That...that is terrifyingly beautiful.^_^ Thanks.
.
Here's the same character with the Weapon Master archetype instead of Free Hand Fighter. I like this version a bit more. It has -1 AC, +1 Hit, +1 Damage, and gets two rerolls per day. Considering the defensive capability of Crane Style, I think that's a good trade.** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Could I get a detailed breakdown of that +19 to weapon damage. It seems very high? Not that i'm complaining since i'm looking for a good dervish/duelist type of build. I'm just curious.
a weirdo way to get around TWF and dervish dance is to go spell blade magus. The athame is still considered a "free hand" for everything including spell casting and touch attacks but is also a 1d4 force dagger.
Take levels of spell blade magus and mix in some sand man bard (will get you some sneak attacks, still cast spells in armor, you can TWF with the athame without even needing to take the feats for it ...or make the prerequisites.... you can also STEAL spells and take the magus arcana - i forget what it's called- that lets you cast bard spells as magus spells while doing spell combat, and you get a little bit of healing as well!)
Just go straight, core rule book fighter. Only thing you have to take not in that is the Dervish Dance feat. All the feats you need and no need to play a human unless you want too.
You can fill the in the other feats as pretty much whatever you want. Go up the Dodge tree and go into Duelist at higher levels, with Whirlwind Attack worked in there. If you have a 13 str you can work in Power Attack for huge amounts of damage, and go up that tree some. Or do both, you'll have the feats.
1 Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Scimitar
2 Dervish Dance
3 Combat Reflexes
4 Weapon Spec Scimitar
5
6 Lunge
7
8 Great Weapon Focus Scimitar
9 Improved Critical Scimitar
10
11 Great Weapon Spec Scimitar
|
Could I get a detailed breakdown of that +19 to weapon damage. It seems very high? Not that i'm complaining since i'm looking for a good dervish/duelist type of build. I'm just curious.
I believe that it is +6 DEX, +6 Power Attack, +2 Weapon Spec., +2 Weapon Training, and +3 Enhancement bonus to =+19