This is the result of trying to make a pouncing character throw out as many natural attacks as possible. I've played around with many builds from Aasimar Antipaladin/Ranger or Barbarian or straight up Aasimar Barbarian. Many interesting builds were made and discarded, then the Viking Archetype for Fighter came on the seen. At first I thought it was the poor man's Barbarian then I found it was more than that, much more. A fighter that can take Rage Powers as bonus feats? Nice!
It's a 20 level build because that's how I roll.
Human Viking Fighter (Haste, Rage, and Giant Form II)
Stats: 25 point buy
Base: Str 18 +4, Dex 16 +3, Con 16 +3, Int 7 -2, Wis 13 +1, Cha 7 -2
Rage and Magic: Str 46 +18, Dex 20 +5, Con 32 +11, Int 13 +1, Wis 19 +4, Cha 13 +1
Skills: Acrobatics +28, Intimidate +27, Perception +27, Use Magic Device +27
Level-Feat and Ability Score Choices
1-Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Power Attack
2-Two-Weapon Fighting
3-Dragon Style
4-Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), +1 Str
5-Martial Versatility
6-Lesser Beast Totem
7-Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8-Greater Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), +1 Str
9-Stunning Fist
10-Beast Totem
11-Dragon Ferocity
12-Greater Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), +1 Str
13-Raging Brutality
14-Greater Beast Totem
15-Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
16-Feral Combat Training, +1 Str
17-Martial Mastery (natural weapons group)
18-Double Slice
19-Improved Critical
20-Reckless Abandon, +1 Str
Magic Items:
Helm of the Mammoth Lord: Gore Attack (1d6+Str)
Headband of Mental Superiority +6
Tentacle Cloak: 2 Tentacle Attacks (1d6+1/2 Str)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5
Monk's Robed: Unarmed Strike (1d8) (+1 AC)
+5 Giant-Hide Armor (Storm Giant): Giant Form II, 2x Slam Attacks (2d6+Str), Immune Electricity
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Ring of the Rat: Bite Attack (1d4 + Str)
Ring of Force Shield: +2 Shield
Boots of Speed: (+1 bonus on attack rolls and +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex)
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone: (+1 insight bonus to AC)
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone: (+1 competence bonus to attack, saves, skill and ability checks)
Flawed Scarlet and Green Cabochon Ioun Stone: Fatigued to Sickened, Exhausted to Nauseated
Candle of Invocation (+2 morale bonus to attack, saves, and skill checks)
Tome of Gainful Exercise +5 (Strength)
AC: 49, touch 13, flat-footed 24 (+9 armor, +6 shield, +4 dex, +11 natural armor, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +1 AC bonus, -2 rage, -2 size)
HP 344
Fort +26, Ref +15, Will +13
Melee: Primary Unarmed Strikes +44/+44/+39/+34/+29 (first attack 3d6+73 19-20/x2 and 3d6+59 19-20/x2 for the rest), Off-Hand Unarmed Strikes +44/+39/+34 (3d6+53 19-20/x2), Gore +39 (2d6+44 19-20/x2), 2 Tentacles +39 (2d6+44 19-20/x2), Bite +39 (1d8+44 19-20/2x), 2 Claws +39 (3d6+44 19-20/x3), 2 Slams +39 (2d6+44 19-20/x2)
Average Damage: 964.5
Damage Breakdown:
First Unarmed Strike: +73 (+36 Str, +16 Con, +4 Feat, +5 Weapon, +12 Power Attack)
Primary Unarmed Strikes: +59 (+27 Str, +11 Con, +4 Feat, +5 Weapon, +12 Power Attack)
Off-Hand Unarmed Strikes: +53 (+27 Str, +11 Con, +4 Feat, +5 Weapon, +6 Power Attack)
Natural Attacks: +44 (+18 Str, +11 Con, +4 Feat, +5 Weapon, +6 Power Attack)
To clarify things here is that I'm using magic items and the Beast Totem rage power chain to grant myself different forms of natural attacks. I'm taking feats to increase the effectiveness of unarmed strikes such as Weapon Focus and Dragon Style. Finally I took Martial Versatility, Martial Mastery, and Feral Combat Training to allow for Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Dragon Style, and Dragon Ferocity to be applied to both unarmed strikes and natural weapons. And to top it all off I get to charge and full attack.
What I would like to know is that 1) Did I do the math right? 2)Would gloves of dueling work with this? 3)Is there better magic item and/or feat choices I can make to increase the damage?
You definitely can't use claws and slam attack. You might be able to get away with unarmed strikes as they don't necessarily use your "arms". Also when using natural attacks and you can't get iterative attacks with others if I recall correctly.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but how are you getting +36 or +27 damage from strength alone when you're buffed strength is a 46 and gives you a modifier of 18?
Dragon Style feats I think
Str x 1.5 ...so, +18 str mod= 27. (18/2= 9; 9+ 18= 27) as for the +36! Possibly from double slice? Though I doubt the math and how some of the abilities/feat don't work as what the OP is saying.
However, I do not see where people are getting the idea you can't slam and use claws.
Dragon Style + Ferocity allows for double Str on a single hit.
That's where the +36 comes from.
this build relies excessively on highly specialized magical equipment, and is relying on the fact he is 20th level and has both the resources, and the cash to do all of this.
if the build were say required to survive through 5th, 10th or 15th level, it would likely crumble.
too many specialized magic items that grant highly niche properties, mostly natural attacks
plus it involves using the same limb over and over for a bunch of natural attacks unless you have toe claws and do the unarmed strikes with your hips.
but this build, makes the amulet of mighty fists, actually worthwhile, but no sane DM would allow this guy in a serious campaign on the following grounds
1. few DMs exceed 13-15, let alone, OMGWTFBBQ 16+ making 20th level abilities irrelevant
2. no player would want to play with this character that slows down combat with it's 15+ pouncing attacks. that is more attacks than a freaking 2WF build, over twice the standard number
3. no player would enjoy watching your Viking one round the boss before they got to do a thing worthy of note.
4. no sane player would willingly build a one trick pony whose sole trick could be dismantled by means of being captured and stripped naked.
5. so what if you could do over 960 damage if your attacks hit, few foes even have 960 HP, let alone 700-800. even with DR, your attacks literally shred your foes so badly they don't even have a corpse to call their own.
6. some DMs might make it harder on the party because of your Viking, such as Myself, Weekly William, Kyrt, or Ashiel. this can come by bringing the DPR of your Viking as a penalty like Weekly William would try.
Weekly William's Overkill Rule
if in one Round, one character deals over twice an individual foe's Max HP in damage but enough to leave them dead. your perform an overkill. an overkilled corpse cannot be raised or ressurected without a wish or miracle spell to restore the body, any loot on on an overkilled corpse's body is completely worthless and useless, being torn into such tiny shreds, that even a make whole spell cannot repair it. in games where XP is used, an Overkilled foe offers an additional XP share to the person responsible, this additional share is applied after dividing among the party and equal to the creature's undivided XP total. so a party of 4 PCs, one of which overkilled a CR 1 foe worth 400 XP, get 100XP apiece, but the guy who performed the overkill, gets another 400XP due to the favor of fate.
Dragon Style + Ferocity allows for double Str on a single hit.
That's where the +36 comes from.
Ahh, see I'm not familiar with all the Style feats. Those do make for an awesome combination when you have a character (like a barbarian or viking fighter) who can really pump up their strength.
I think my biggest criticism of this build as a whole (without going through and checking all the math and other things that concern me) is that this can only be accomplished through the use of Raging Brutality, which adds a significant amount to his damage. Near 200 points of the possible damage is from raging brutality. At level 20 he should have approximately 40 rounds worth of rage, maybe 50 at most. Using raging Brutality you must spend 3 extra rounds of rage to accomplish this. That's 4 rounds of rage total to use raging brutality for one round. You can literally only use this combination for 10 to 12 rounds per day.
If I was your DM, I'd make sure you ran out.
I see complaints about the claws and slams. This is not surprising I understand the arguments against it and it IS admittedly really cheesey but it's not against the rules. Ex. I can easily see a barbarian giant make a claw attack and then reverse his swing to get a slam attack afterwards.
If anyone is wondering about Double Slice, it is because only the monk's off-hand unarmed strikes use the full strength bonus. It's a shame it only applies to off-hand attacks and not secondary.
You can make unarmed strikes, even if you don't have arms.
I hate it when "fist only" guy comes around, a decides to fist his players with houserules, and then calls it RAW.
AMEN!
I must be missing something about the Viking....
So what is the appeal? What am I missing?
Your fighter level your barbarian level minus 3 so you count as a 17th level barbarian when you rage. You only get the +4 bonus to str and con and you can only select rage powers starting at 6th level on. So in that regards it's a bit better then multiclassing. I've done the same build with a Barbarian and he at best does 10 more points of damage (much more against spellcasters) but has a lower chance to hit with all of his attacks. Not much mind you. The thing is with viking though is that I have a bit more flexibility to mess around with combat styles than Barbarian thus I can put out more damage with a bit of tweaking.
Like casting Enlarge Person on a Huge Eidolon and switching out Improved Critical, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, and Reckless Abandon with Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge. Then I would ride the Gargantuan Eidolon and do even more damage. At that point any DM would leap up from his seat and beat me unconscious with the rulebook.
this build relies excessively on highly specialized magical equipment, and is relying on the fact he is 20th level and has both the resources, and the cash to do all of this.
if the build were say required to survive through 5th, 10th or 15th level, it would likely crumble.
too many specialized magic items that grant highly niche properties, mostly natural attacks
plus it involves using the same limb over and over for a bunch of natural attacks unless you have toe claws and do the unarmed strikes with your hips.
but this build, makes the amulet of mighty fists, actually worthwhile, but no sane DM would allow this guy in a serious campaign on the following grounds...
Yeah I know, I built it as a thought experiment. It's a highly specialized one trick pony. There are similar builds I can make that are more well rounded but I just wanted to see what I can do as far as damage goes. Now I must say, making 16 attack rolls and calculating the damage would slow the game to the crawl sapping the fun out of the room. Rule legal but not fun legal.
When I first saw this thread I could have sworn it read "Prancing Viking!". Which means it's probably time for me to call it a night.
P.S. Fun character concept, but a bit of a late bloomer?
Dragon Style + Ferocity allows for double Str on a single hit.
That's where the +36 comes from.
1.5x Str, actually, IIRC.
I like the damage.
Some Achilles' heels in this build though. Saves are pretty awful.
I tend to place a high premium on resiliency when evaluating builds - AM definitely has you beat there.
1.5x Str, actually, IIRC.Dragon Style + Ferocity allows for double Str on a single hit.
That's where the +36 comes from.
1.5 Str to the first hit from Style, +1/2 Str to ALL hits from Ferocity, adding up to an effective 2x Str on the first hit and 1.5 on all others.
However, I do not see where people are getting the idea you can't slam and use claws.Lack of monsters which use both, extrapolation of rules for combining natural and manufactured weapons, extrapolation of eidolon rules, a history of forum consensus predating PF and common sense.
People can extrapolate all they want. There are plenty of rulings and the like that negate and vice-versa, one another, even with people extrapolating otherwise. Until an official ruling, or piece of actual paizo text says otherwise, slam and claws can work.
cant slam and claw with the same limb, and the same goes for bite/gore i think (i think i remember JJ noting it in his stance on unarmed attacks and claw attacks). still, having 12-ish attack per round with pounce is nuts anyway.
A Tengu Ninja can have 5 unarmed/natural attacks (6 with Ki Pool) at level 2 with SA damage attached. At 3rd level, they get Weapon Finesse to round out the fact that they're probably running a high Dex build, or skip it and get Power Attack or something. If you dip Fighter, which is not a bad idea, you get get some of that sooner, along with a few other perks.
If you instead do Tengu Unarmed Fighter 1 / Master of Many Styles 1, you get the Dragon Style and Ferocity feats by level 2, Unarmed Strike, TWF, and one other feat of your choice. You have 5 attacks and SIGNIFICANT damage from STR. You lose a racial +2 to Str to gain your 3 natural weapons, but you have those from level 1. You don't actually need the Unarmed and TWF feats right away if you don't want them.
cant slam and claw with the same limb, and the same goes for bite/gore i think (i think i remember JJ noting it in his stance on unarmed attacks and claw attacks). still, having 12-ish attack per round with pounce is nuts anyway.
Bite and gore work perfectly fine together. From Bestiary One there's the gargoyle and the half-fiend minotaur as good examples. Slam and claw attacks not working together from what I can I see fall into the realm of personal opinion. Slam attacks are not necessarily slams made with the arms, they easily could be made with legs. Heck they don't have to made with limbs at all, it could easily be crude body or shoulder slam. Some monsters get only one slam attack even when they have two arms. Take for example the Vampire templete. It adds a singular slam attack in addition to natural attacks made by the creature. There's nothing about choosing between natural attacks. Basically I have the same opinion as Grizzly the Archer.
Cool,
So, I can go sword and board, and equip both a cestus and a sword on my charcter's right arm, and attack with both of them each round. Just like clawing and slamming with the same arm. It's exactly the same, literally. I slash with the sword (claw attack) and then hit with the cestus on the back swing (slam attack). No rule against it, per the poster's here.
4. no sane player would willingly build a one trick pony whose sole trick could be dismantled by means of being captured and stripped naked.
You mean like any sort of primary caster who depends on a spell component pouch, spell book, or anyone who uses a weapon to do damage? Or hell, pretty much any class besides a Sorcerer or Oracle?
That aside, this seems to be more a thought experiment then an actual build someone would want to play. I wouldn't worry about the logistics of it too much.
@BBT and painful bugger: my mistake then.
slams are going to be a primary or secondary attack and use 'limbs' if limbs exist.
Saying you can use a slam with your foot is like freely saying you get an extra attack for no investment if you put a toe spike on your boot.
You may be able to 'switch' between claw and slam, but there's absolutely no way they STACK.
==Aelryinth
Can't you just have a slam, like from an elemental, do a body slam?
It's still considered a primary or secondary attack, and if there's a limb present, will use it.
You don't get a free attack just because you can use a different mode, without sticking a feat or SOMETHING into the mix.
==Aelryinth