Mapless Combat?


Advice

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

One of the conceits of Pathfinder, or any d20 RPG, is that combat is tactical and uses a battle map of some kind. In real-life that works out relatively well for me, but running play-by-post games, mapmaking and map use can be an extra level of attention that I just don't always have the time for. I'd been intrigued about the use of mapless/gridless combat on the boards, but things always seemed to break down due to the tactical nature of the Pathfinder system.

Behind the spoiler, I tried to come up with a quick and dirty mapless combat system that meshed with the Pathfinder rules, but when I got down to considering how to adjucate how area-of-effect spells worked the whole system just kind of fell apart. You can see how much I did, but when I got to figuring out how a lightning bolt or a fireball would work I just kind of threw my hands in the air and sighed.

Has anyone had any success in making a system like this for use with Pathfinder?

Mapless Combat Rules Sketch:

ZONES
A zone is a term meaning a variable-sized space, anything from a room or a region of an open field. The GM details the size of a zone and its boundaries at the beginning of combat.

Movement: Moving into and out of a zone requires a move action unless otherwise stated. Depending on the size of a zone and your character's speed, it may take one or more move actions to move through the zone, the GM will let you know this limitation. Difficult terrain can increase the number of actions it takes to move into or out of a zone.

Attacks of Opportunity: Moving out of or through (but not into) a zone with enemies that are aware of your presence provokes an attack of opportunity from all of the enemies in that zone. A successful Acrobatics check (with a DC equal to the highest CMD in the zone) allows you to not provoke an attack of opportunity. Creatures with flyby attack or spring attack may move through or out of a zone as part of a spring attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity.

Range: There are three range categories that a character can be in when not in melee in a zone; short range, medium range, and long range. Depending on the size of a zone there may be a maximum limit to the range you can be at in that zone (representing a small room or other confined space.) Spells function as normal within their appropriate ranges, a spell with short range cannot be used to target creatures if the caster is at medium range, for example.

Ranged weapons follow these basic rules for how far they can attack:
Thrown Weapons: Short
Shortbows, Light Crossbows, One-handed Firearms: Medium
Longbows, Heavy Crossbows, Two-Handed Firearms: Long

For every range category further you are than is permissable for the weapon, you suffer a -4 penalty on attack rolls. Spells cannot reach targets outside of their permissable range categories. Feats or abilities that extend the range of ranged weapons extend their range catrgory by one.

Engaging a Ranged creatures in melee: A creature at short range can be reached with a move action. This draws them into melee combat and they are considered to be in melee within the zone. A character at medium range can be reached by a double-move or a charge attack (when permissable). Creatures at long range require a full-round action and another move action on the next round of combat to reach. As long range is the maximum distance one can maintain in combat, a character at long range must leave the zone to get further distance.

ZONE COMBAT

Initiating Combat: Combat in a zone begins as normal, when one or both parties are aware of one another. Typically all creatures involved in combat begin in the same zone. The GM will inform you of the distance to engage in melee within the zone (short, medium or long) if you do not begin in melee range.

Typically, characters cannot attack into another zone. In instances where this is possible the GM will adjucate distance and ranged penalties as necessary.

Area Attacks: Targeting a creature with an attack that has a wide area, such as a cone or blast, is a risky maneuver. If the spell has a range of short, long or medium it may be cast at that range.

Determine the area of effect (such as a burst). If the target creature has the engaged condition, all creatures in the zone that have the engaged condition are considered to be targeted by the effect. Creatures at a range are unaffected.

If the spell's point of emanation is the caster, such as with burning hands or [i[lightning bolt[/i] all creatures between the range of the point of emanation and the target range are affected. For example, the wizard Skoll is at Medium range and casts lightning bolt on a creature with the Engaged status. All creatures with the engaged status and all creatures in Short and Medium range are targeted by the spell effect. If he had instead cast the spell at a creature in Short range, all creatures in Medium and Short range would be targeted.

NEW CONDITIONS

Engaged: You are engaged in melee combat with an enemy or enemies, anyone attempting to target you with a ranged attack suffers a -4 penalty to their attack roll unless they have the Precise Shot feat.

Flanked: If you are engaged in melee with a number of opponents equal to twice the number of allies you have in your zone, you are considered to be flanked. All opponents in that zone who attack you in melee gain a +2 bonus to their attack rolls. Alternately, if you have the Engaged status and you have at least one ally with the Engaged status in the same zone as you, you may spend a swift action on your turn to give an opponent the Flanked condition for one round.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

Giving this one, hopeful bump.


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Why do you need so many rules for this? I've always run my games mapless. I hate battlemaps--they slow everything down and create a barrier for immersion.

It's easy and it doesn't need special rules. You just use the actual measurements they have in the game. A fireball hits a 20' radius. No special rules necessary.

What's the issue you're having running this mapless?

Scarab Sages

In a PbP I'm a PC in now, we just describe our intended actions and the GM has the ability to say yay or nay to it based on his interpretation of the tactical situation. We are all good at describing our moves and actions in general so we have little trouble keeping up with it.
When it comes to charge lanes, flanking, ranges, etc. we just use our best guesses. Typically it is just assumed that the charge lane is open and that the Sneak Attackers can get a flank in with a good Acrobatics check. As long as it is described well and the cinematics are good, we done really care about the details.
This is a very enjoyable way to play it for me, but it requires a certain flexibility from the players and a general focus on RP as opposed to tactical specifics.

Silver Crusade

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Battle maps aren't necessary. At worst draw and upload a crude map of where everyone starts off and just go from there. As long as your description works then you can get away without the map.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

mplindustries wrote:

Why do you need so many rules for this? I've always run my games mapless. I hate battlemaps--they slow everything down and create a barrier for immersion.

It's easy and it doesn't need special rules. You just use the actual measurements they have in the game. A fireball hits a 20' radius. No special rules necessary.

What's the issue you're having running this mapless?

It's not an issue so much as retaining some element of the tactical aspect of the game (flanking, area of effect, etc.) That is hard to do when you get outside of small encounters or party sizes. While you can simply say "x number of characters" are hit by an area attack, it can lead to areas of confusion where one player read the description of a room and where he might be out of danger, and the GM intended it differently.

While, ultimately, what the GM says goes having some sense of arbitration would make things clearer in my opinion. Being able to define, "I was in the back row" and have a concise definition of what that is makes a difference to some people.

Removing maps also tips the balance on some aspects of the game such as speed and feats/abilities that focus on mobility, positioning and other tactical concepts. While I could run a game that eliminates or mitigates those aspects, I was instead hoping to find some sort of middle-ground between a combat map and completely free-form.

I'm surprised no 3rd-party has come up with something like this (though the difficulty in doing so and play-testing could be why...)

Scarab Sages

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Lack of maps either greatly diminishes or renders useless most AoE spells.

What typically happens is: either the spells are ruled to affect only a single opponent, or they are ruled to affect PCs. Without a map, there is no way a caster can position themselves to achieve the desired result.

Shadow Lodge

I've been debating this too. I see some value in having a representation of the physical space of a combat without getting quite so bogged down in the artificial - I'm on this specific five ft square.

I'm considering trying to implement something like the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying - zone approach.

I'll have a series of index cards - each representing I think 15 by 15 ft. The cards wont represent visually the setting I'll simply lay them down and note what is in each zone that may be relevant to the combat - table, chairs, river etc.

Characters and NPCs will be placed in zones but within the zone what square they are on wont matter.

If range is ambiguous - i.e. a difference of 10ft would impact whether a character can charge or have range and thus where a character is within a zone is relevant, I will have the attacking character make a relevant skill role to judge.

For instance - you want to shoot a ranged weapon person may or may not be in range - perception check to correctly judge it.

You want to charge - person may or may not be in range, either a perception check to judge or a con check to go the extra distance.

What I like about this is it brings back the possibility of failing to charge or firing short.

Finally it makes combat feel more dynamic and fluid, plus offers the opportunity to really sell what you are doing.

Any thoughts, comments would be much appreciated.


What I'd love to see is some sort of proper map tool designed specifically for play-by-post games. I can't believe there isn't a good one already.


Chris P. Bacon wrote:
What I'd love to see is some sort of proper map tool designed specifically for play-by-post games. I can't believe there isn't a good one already.

they are working on it, paizo game space is currently in closed beta

this will work for PbP and so much else


Chris - Roll20.net has a very simple map setup system. If all you need is a graphical representation then you can sketch up a map much like you'd do on a regular battlemat - it'll take you less than 30 seconds.

However, you'd either have to take screenshots and post them in the PbP or ask each player to make a (free) account and log in to move their tokens.

Shadow Lodge

Actually as I consider this more - would 15 by 15 be the appropriate size for a zone?

Sovereign Court

I'd suggest perhaps telling your players to describe their actions more tactically if that is the case your having.

"I move to flank" "I back away just in case someone starts lobbing fireballs" And so on...


Thing that do not work or work right in mapless combat land.
Sneak Attack, Area effects, Combat reflexs, Combat patrol, Cleave, great cleave, Whirl wind Attack and AoO in general


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Tom S 820 wrote:

Thing that do not work or work right in mapless combat land.

Sneak Attack, Area effects, Combat reflexs, Combat patrol, Cleave, great cleave, Whirl wind Attack and AoO in general

I've never had too much trouble with any of those things. Been playing without dolls since 1980 or so, and don't plan on buying any anytime soon.


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Why are people saying "AoE is rendered useless" and "This/that doesn't work in mapless combat"? There is nothing in any combat section that says a battlemap must be used or <X> spell or <Y> ability is non-functional. You guys just aren't thinking outside the box.

Mapped combat is unnecessary if you're descriptive enough in your actions. I allow my players to use or not use a battle map, majority decision. Some people just really like it.

The DM is key to mapless combat. He has to be descriptive, and the players have to ask the right questions. For instance:

"Can I shoot him with my bow from behind this overturned carriage?"

"No, the corner of the apothecary building is in the way. If you can get to the fence I described earlier, you may have a better angle."

"Can I drop a fireball on his location?"

"Yes, and remember, you have the spellshaping feat, so if you want to, you can bend it around the corner in case he has buddies back there"

"Don't do that, the rogue was sneaking around the building to sap him!"

There's plenty of mechanics in that simple call and response. You just need to be able to project and have good imaginative spatial awareness.


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I find that the main barrier to mapless combat is the level of two-way trust required. The DM needs to have a very accurate mental picture, must give clear descriptions, and can't forget parts that are relevant.

  • Players have to be able to trust the DM not to screw them over when they throw fireballs trying to catch "as many bad guys as I can," or forgetting to give the PCs their AoOs when bad guys move through threatened areas.
  • The DM has to be willing to relinquish a little bit of narrative control. Instead of requiring that a doll be moved "X" spaces, you have to allow the player to say stuff like, "OK, you said he was 20 ft. away; I'm going to move to within 5 ft. of him, but not in Fred's line of fire, and to one side so Barto can get a flank going!" And then Barto's player can say, "I follow him, except to go to the other side to get that flank." And if it can work, you need to let it work.

    I also use this rule for terrain features: if it's likely to be there, consider it there when you're planning and describing your actions (If in an inn, the PC can say, "I move to the staircase to the second floor!" even if you don't have a map showing one). But if it's less likely to be there, or has to be in a very specific place ("I cut the rope to the chandelier that's right over his head!"), that requires a hero point.


  • Barry Armstrong wrote:

    The DM is key to mapless combat. He has to be descriptive, and the players have to ask the right questions. For instance:

    "Can I shoot him with my bow from behind this overturned carriage?"

    "No, the corner of the apothecary building is in the way. If you can get to the fence I described earlier, you may have a better angle."

    "Can I drop a fireball on his location?"

    "Yes, and remember, you have the spellshaping feat, so if you want to, you can bend it around the corner in case he has buddies back there"

    "Don't do that, the rogue was sneaking around the building to sap him!"

    There's plenty of mechanics in that simple call and response. You just need to be able to project and have good imaginative spatial awareness.

    This works at the table but slows down the game far too much in PbP. Asking clarifying questions and getting back answers to make sure everyone's on the same page takes hours or days rather than seconds to minutes to get through one person's turn in combat.

    Personally, I have poor spatial reasoning and have a very hard time translating a description of a scene into a useable mental map.


    Interesting. Dotted for later reading.


    I use "Combat by Description" along with some additional rules to provide the abstraction necessary to make the combat move quickly and objectively.

    For example, when it comes to flanking, an enemy has the 'flanked' condition once he is attacked by melee weapons by two people. For AoE spells, a d6 is rolled with modifiers from a simple table (such as +2 for spells over 10' in radius) for each potential target. All results 6+ are considered in the AoE.

    You can see my systems in action on my Pbp games. http://paizo.com/people/JCServant/campaigns . I've been using it for over half a year now (with some tweaking along the way), and most of the players like it enough to stick around.

    Sczarni

    I mostly run mapless combat, except for climactic set-piece battles. I find it far too hard to run with maps for my six-person group (mostly we just don't own a big enough table!), and my other group is done over Ventrilo. I don't have many problems with it.

    It depends a lot on the nature of your group. I find it's best with players who are either: A. so inexperienced that they don't worry too much about the details of combat; or B. extremely experienced and able to easily visualize complex tactical situations.

    I actually really like non-map combat, since it takes the emphasis off numerical tactics and puts it more onto imagination. I can have a player say, "I climb up the outside of the hut and swing in through the window." I have him make a Climb check and an Acrobatics check, I judge whether I think his rolls were good enough, and say, "Ok!" No mucking about with tables or counting off squares.


    Joana wrote:

    This works at the table but slows down the game far too much in PbP. Asking clarifying questions and getting back answers to make sure everyone's on the same page takes hours or days rather than seconds to minutes to get through one person's turn in combat.

    Personally, I have poor spatial reasoning and have a very hard time translating a description of a scene into a useable mental map.

    I don't see it slowing down the game any more than playing PbP already does, honestly. My in-person campaign actually takes more time to resolve the same amount of actions than my PbP group does, due to the continuous nature of posting things by mail or forum.

    I do understand that not everyone has the mental capacity to translate the loose semantics into hard mechanics. But that's what a DM is for.

    Grand Lodge

    A five found combat at the table takes, on average, about an hour or two. In my Pbp it takes about two days with three posting times enforced for each day. (If a player does not post by a posting time, their turn is essentially delayed...we don't hold up the 'table' for one missed post).


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    Trinite wrote:
    I have him make a Climb check and an Acrobatics check, I judge whether I think his rolls were good enough, and say, "Ok!"

    This would bug the hell out of me as a player, because then your entire game is "mother-may-I" and there's no point in me allocating skill ranks, etc. Especially because tasks are inexplicably harder (higher effectice DC) when done by people who are better at them -- if you're going to judge a roll of 18 as "good enough," what difference is there between someone with 10 ranks, Skill Focus, and a high attribute modifier, vs. someone with no ranks, a poor attribute modifier, and a bunch of armor check penalties?

    Abandoning the map doesn't mean you have to abandon any semblance of game rules -- for skills or anything else.


    GM-JCServant wrote:
    A five found combat at the table takes, on average, about an hour or two.

    Wow. A 5-round combat at my table takes closer to 20 minutes, for which I am grateful. A single 2-hour combat would absolutely bore me to tears.

    Grand Lodge

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    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Instead of requiring that a doll be moved "X" spaces...

    *ahem* Action figure. :P


    show me on the doll where BBEG touch-attacked you

    Grand Lodge

    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    GM-JCServant wrote:
    A five found combat at the table takes, on average, about an hour or two.
    Wow. A 5-round combat at my table takes closer to 20 minutes, for which I am grateful. A single 2-hour combat would absolutely bore me to tears.

    I almost always have seven players, and my campaign is currently level 9....so, yeah, they take a while.

    In PFS, I generally run things a little faster, and the combats tend to have fewer mobs overall (Usually it's one to two monsters...occasionally 6-7...but never 14+ like what you see in my home games sometimes)... so those are usually knocked out in 40+ minutes at that level.

    Yeah, lower level combat can go faster. But, I think you'll find that typically, few combats get knocked out in 20 minutes in organized play settings, especially at higher levels.


    I run map-free situations in my current Pathfinder game and have never had an issue. Sure, there is a bit of "mother-may-I," but that is part of the DM's responsibilities anyway. It seriously speeds up gameplay and as long as the DM is impartial and balanced, there shouldn't be any issues.

    Even tactical combat is possible where the PC describes her intent and the DM determines whether or not it is possible in a given situation. Again, fair and balanced play is essential, but if that is even remotely achieved, the increased speed-of-play is incredible.

    Plus, it makes people use their imagination more, which is rarely a bad thing.

    Either way...just my 2 cp


    Going on 5 years now of not using maps for more than a basic idea of the what the characters are seeing, and never using miniatures at all.

    Mostly the problems I have are people that come from grid-based games that find it hard to transition. Outside of that I find it adds to the immersion.

    For those that wonder about AoE and backstab mechanics: my players simply ask questions if they're wondering, or state they are looking for opportunities.

    No map, no figurines = much easier to get the role in the play.


    GM-JCServant wrote:
    But, I think you'll find that typically, few combats get knocked out in 20 minutes in organized play settings, especially at higher levels.

    Can't speak for organized play, but high-level fights run like Rocket Tag in my experience; they usually last 1 round, once the fight actually starts (although there might be a lot of divination and jockeying for advantage before they meet, if it's a BBEG).

    I wouldn't wish to have 7 players at a time, though -- if I did, I'd split them into 2 different games.


    I run several play by posts, I usually post in the ooc thread asking the players if they are ok without a map or if anyone thinks a map would help.

    Usually maps end up needed in major events and no map for minor scrapes.......


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    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Instead of requiring that a doll be moved "X" spaces...
    *ahem* Action figure. :P

    One of each in either hand although usually my action figure is in my right hand....


    Lamontius wrote:
    Chris P. Bacon wrote:
    What I'd love to see is some sort of proper map tool designed specifically for play-by-post games. I can't believe there isn't a good one already.

    they are working on it, paizo game space is currently in closed beta

    this will work for PbP and so much else

    Ooo, thanks for pointing that out! I'll have to look into it, but in the meantime I'm totally setting my hopes to "high".

    Kudaku wrote:

    Chris - Roll20.net has a very simple map setup system. If all you need is a graphical representation then you can sketch up a map much like you'd do on a regular battlemat - it'll take you less than 30 seconds.

    However, you'd either have to take screenshots and post them in the PbP or ask each player to make a (free) account and log in to move their tokens.

    Yeah, this is where things start to get too cumbersome to be practical. I have players who aren't that technically adept, or who tend to forget logins/passwords, and it just becomes a mess. Also, when they've moved a token it isn't always clear how they've moved, where they've stepped, etc. And the screenshot/upload/link process gets tiring - but that's just me being lazy. ^__^

    Still looking for something more fluid. Fingers crossed.


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Tom S 820 wrote:

    Thing that do not work or work right in mapless combat land.

    Sneak Attack, Area effects, Combat reflexs, Combat patrol, Cleave, great cleave, Whirl wind Attack and AoO in general
    I've never had too much trouble with any of those things. Been playing without dolls since 1980 or so, and don't plan on buying any anytime soon.

    I played D&D first in 1979 and we aruged allways on how close we where.

    That ended when when we found games with maps and figs like Star Frontier, Marvel super heroes, and battel tech.

    Because players and GM both get in their head us vs them idea. It levels out the field to what it is. If you got mapless there need to high level of trust in your players and GM to make it work out fair.

    It to easy to cheat say you get extra attack AoO are the monster can cleave in to both of you. Or that you can not monster dose not get one or that room that you can cleave both orge and the ork.

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