I do mean open discussion, if you love it feel free to state why. That being said, I personally feel kinda meh about that paizo Assassin (and only slightly less so about the 3.5 version, though the magic felt stapled on). Number one on my list is removing the evil only BS. Assassin's don't always mean ruthlessly killing the family man for a pocket full of coins. My favorite example of non-evil Assassins is how the league of Assassins started out in the Wanted comic book universe. anything anyone else want to see differently?
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Well, to be honest, imo the assassin feels like a rogue archetype with a small extra something tacked on. Before it was magic and poison use, now it's weird abilities that hinder resurrection. Both seem somewhat extraneous.
The way archetypes now work, I'd prefer having a murder-based archetype and the assassin abilities as (high-end) rogue talents, to be honest. You don't have to be evil (though that's another can of worms). What about the Assassin PrC makes you want to keep it distinct?
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I'd dismantle it and turn it into rogue/ninja talents, too.
Have it start after 4 levels instead of 5. Compacted it down to 8 levels instead of 10 and change the alignment restriction to lawful and non-good. That fixes the BAB break problem and it makes sense to me that assassins could be LN or LE.
EDIT: There are two SA only levels. Push down abilities by a level or two to fit into them.
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I would make the death ability dex based instead of intelligence based.
Now in all honesty the Assassin class is one of those things I considered to be more of a GM's toy than a player's toy. Most NPC's stay dead anyway so that is not really useful to a player, but to the GM having a raise dead fail on a PC or an allied NPC would be something you can work at least some portion of a campaign around.
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It is done already. The ninja is basically the assassin as a full pledge class.
Actually in a game I DM one my player is a ninja, but didnt want the eastern flavor, so we call it assassin and switched the wakizashi proficiency for sawtooth sabre.
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While I do think a ninja makes a good mystical assassin, the desmonds and altairs however dont feel like a good fit. The beauty of this Prc is that essentially anyone can take it. Admittedly true death as an ability, is rather pointless outside of flavor, like the alignment thing. Any ideas on improvements to class mechanically?
I am in favor of dismantling the class and re-creating it as rogue talents, as others have suggested. Similarly, I'd do the same with the master spy. Both classes have abilities I feel are essential for a truly effective assassin. I mean, spies make the best assassins, in all honesty.
That said, if I were to keep the class, it'd probably look something like this (suffice to say it is more powerful, drawing upon the flavor the shadowdancer to create a more supernatural assassin):
Saves: Unchanged.
Class Skills: Unchanged.
Skills Ranks At Each Level: Unchanged.
Alignment: Unchanged.
Skills: Craft (Alchemy) 2, Disguise 2, Stealth 4
Special: Unchanged.
1 - Death Attack +1d6, Master Poisoner, Shadow Pool
2 - Improved Poisons +1, Swift Death (1/day)
3 - Death Attack +2d6
4 - Improved Poisons +2, Quiet Death
5 - Death Attack +3d6
6 - Improved Poisons +3, Swift Death (2/day)
7 - Death Attack +4d6
8 - Impending Death (1/day), Improved Poisons +4
9 - Death Attack +5d6
10 - Angel of Death, Improved Poisons +5, Swift Death (3/day)
All of the following are class features of the assassin prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Assassins are proficient with the crossbow (hand, light, or heavy), dagger (any type), dart, rapier, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Assassins are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
Death Attack (Ex and Su): An assassin gains death attack. This ability functions exactly like the rogue's sneak, except that if the assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice).
Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin or recognizes the assassin as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked).
If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier), it dies.
Anyone slain by an assassin's death attack becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Spellcasters attempting to bring a creature back from the dead using raise dead or similar magic must make a caster level check with a DC equal to 15 + the assassin's level or the spell fails and the material component is wasted. Casting remove curse the round before attempting to bring the creature back from the dead negates this chance. The DC of the remove curse is 10 + the assassin's level.
Alternatively, an assassin may choose to paralyze his victim, rendering it helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin.
If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.
If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes its save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.
Shadow Pool (Su): An assassin gains a pool of shadows which he can call upon to produce supernatural effects. The number of points in the assassin’s shadow pool is equal to 1/2 his assassin level + his Intelligence modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his shadow pool, the assassin gains darkvision out to 60 feet (if he already has darkvision he increases the range by 30 feet). Whenever an assassin slays a living creature with a number of HD equal to greater than his own, the assassin may gather a mote of shadow from the corpse (a full-round action), restoring 1 point to his shadow pool.
By spending 1 point from his shadow pool, as a standard action, an assassin can cast deeper darkness as a spell-like ability. His caster level when producing this effect is equal to his assassin level.
By spending 1 point from his shadow pool, as a move action, an assassin can travel through the Shadow Plane, leaping a distance of 30 feet. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. Travel through the Shadow Plane is imprecise; when the assassin arrives, he re-enters 1 square off target, as per the rules for thrown splash weapons (see page 202 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook). If this would place the assassin within an occupied square, he instead arrives in the nearest safe location. When he arrives, the assassin is cloaked in shadow and gains concealment as the blur spell for 1 round. At 3rd level and every other level thereafter, he may travel an additional 30 feet when using this ability by spending an additional point from his shadow pool, to a maximum of 150 feet at 9th level (by spending a total of 5 points).
By spending 1 point from his shadow pool, as a swift action, an assassin can summon a phantasmal weapon of his choice. He must have proficiency with the type of weapon he conjures. The weapon is created from the stuff of shadows and has a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls. This blade lasts for 1 minute. At 3rd level and every other level thereafter, he may spend an additional point from his shadow pool when creating this weapon to increase the enhancement bonus it receives by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 9th level (by spending a total of 5 points).
At 10th level, as long as he has at least 1 point in his shadow pool, the assassin gains the effects of Hide In Plain Sight, allowing him to seamlessly blend into the shadows.
Master Poisoner (Ex): An assassin is trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison himself when applying poison to a blade. In addition, he can use Craft (Alchemy) to change a poison's type. This requires 1 hour of work with an alchemist's lab and a Craft (Alchemy) skill check with a DC equal to the poison's DC. If successful, the poison's type changes to contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury (assassin's choice). If the check fails, the poison is ruined. The assassin also receives a bonus on Craft (Alchemy) skill checks when working with poison equal to his assassin level.
Improved Poisons (Ex): At 2nd level, an assassin adds a +1 bonus to the DC of any poisons he crafts. At 4th level and every even level thereafter, this bonus increases by +1 (to a maximum of +5 at 10th level).
Swift Death (Ex): At 2nd level, once per day, an assassin can make a death attack against a foe without studying the foe beforehand. He must still sneak attack his foe using a melee weapon that deals damage. At 6th level, and again at 10th, the assassin gains an additional daily use of this ability.
Quiet Death (Ex): At 4th level, whenever an assassin kills a creature using his death attack during a surprise round, he can also make a Stealth check, opposed by Perception checks of those in the vicinity to prevent them from identifying him as the assailant. If successful, those nearby might not even notice that the target is dead for a few moments, allowing the assassin to avoid detection.
Impending Death (Su): At 8th level, once per day, when an assassin succeeds a death attack and his victim fails the saving throw, he can choose to delay the onset of the death effect.
Thereafter, the assassin can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to his assassin level. To make such an attempt, the assassin merely wills the target to die (a free action). The victim receives an additional saving throw versus the death effect (same DC as before). If it fails, the target dies. However, if the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular death attack, though it is still susceptible to further death attacks.
An assassin can have no more than 1 of these effects in place at any given time. If he uses it again while another is still in effect, the previous is negated.
Angel of Death (Su): At 10th level, the assassin becomes a master of death. Whenever an assassin kills a creature using his death attack, he can cause the target's body to crumble to dust (assassin's choice). This prevents raise dead and resurrection (although true resurrection works as normal).
Shadow Clone
You can conjure shadows to mimic your actions.
Prerequisites: Assassin level 1.
Benefit: You can create 1d4 shadowy duplicates of yourself that conceal your true location. This ability functions as mirror image, using your assassin level as your caster level. Using this ability is a standard action that uses up 1 point from your shadow pool.
Shadow Conjuration
You can conjure quasi-real shadow creatures.
Prerequisites: Assassin level 3, Shadow Illusion.
Benefit: You can create creatures and effects out of raw shadow. This ability functions as shadow conjuration, using your assassin level as your caster level. Upon reaching 10th level, this ability functions as greater shadow conjuration. The DC for this ability is Intelligence-based. Using this ability is a standard action that uses up 2 points from your shadow pool.
Shadow Illusion
You can create shadowy illusions.
Prerequisites: Assassin level 1.
Benefit: You can conjure shadows to create visual illusions. This ability functions as silent image, using your assassin level as your caster level. The DC for this ability is Intelligence-based. Using this ability is a standard action that uses up 1 point from your shadow pool.
Shadow Split
You can conjure a shadow clone to distract your foes.
Prerequisites: Assassin level 3, Shadow Clone.
Benefit: You can create an illusory double of herself that moves away from you, allowing you to create a distraction. When you uses this ability, an illusory double appears and moves away from you, heading in one direction. The double climbs walls, jumps pits, or simply passes through obstacles, moving at twice your speed in the direction of your choice. Its course cannot be changed. The double persists for 1 round per level of the assassin. Those who interact with the double receive a Will saving throw to recognize that it is fake. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 your assassin level + your Intelligence modifier. Using this ability is a swift action that uses up 2 points from your shadow pool.
Shadow Evocation
You can conjure shadows to injure your foes.
Prerequisites: Assassin level 5, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Illusion.
Benefit: You can use raw shadow to damage your foes. This ability functions as shadow evocation, using your assassin level as your caster level. The DC for this ability is Intelligence-based. Using this ability is a standard action that uses up 3 points from your shadow pool.
Summon Shadow
You can conjure a shadow companion.
Prerequisites: Assassin level 3.
Benefit: Once per day, you can summon a shadow, an undead shade, with an alignment that matches your own. It cannot create spawn, but will serve you unquestionably. The summoned shadow receives a +4 bonus on Will saves made to halve the damage from positive channeled energy and the cannot be turned or commanded. This shadow has a number of hit points equal to half of your total. The shadow uses your base attack bonus and base save bonuses. Using this ability is a full-round action that uses up 2 points from your shadow pool. The shadow persists for 1 hour per assassin level and can be dismissed as a free action. If it is slain before this time elapses, you must succeed a DC 15 Will save or lose access to your shadow pool for 24 hours.
What I'd do is kill the Red Mantis Assassin PrC, reflavor some of its skills and then put the corpse over the normal Assassin to create a viable Assassin Prestige Class mechanically. That, and then remove the alignment restriction for fluff reasons. Of course I don't need to do any of that anymore, since we have the Ninja doing the whole Assassin thing better than the Assassin and Red Mantis Assassin combined.
As for the shadow/ki pool, imo it's something the rogue class itself needs. I think nicking the "inspiration" font of the Factotum from 3.5 Dungeonscape with some minor modifications would be quite fitting, don't you think? It strikes me as having the sort of "lucky AND good" effects I'm looking for in such classes.
I'm not familiar with the Factotum or Dungeonscape, but luck effects certainly seem fitting for a rogue. Not sure about assassins, specifically, but generally speaking assassins are roguish characters, so I suppose it fits.
Well, some of the effects could be represented as a flash of inspiration or genius. Spending a limited resource to, say, reroll a missed check or attack, ignore damage reduction, add to your SA dice (either dice or a fixed number) and boost other rogue talents can be a good way to improve the base class imo. Sort of like what the ninja got, but less oriental-only.
@ The Shaman: Sounds very rogue-y.
The only claim to leigitmacy the 3.5 assassin had was spellcasting, which a straight rogue couldn't get. Strip that away and the assassin "prestige class" is a dry husk of nothing.
Make the "class features" into rogue talents and be done with it (as pointed out above, this goes for Master Spy, too).
In general, if you can easily do something with an existing base class, it's sort of pointless to create a prestige class instead. Also, if meeting the prerequisites and taking a prestige class makes you a lot weaker, then something isn't right (you should be at the same power level -- not higher, as with the old Initiate of the Seven Veils -- and not lower, as with the current Assassin).
What miss from the Assassin are a little more options. There is a variant I remember from 3.5 I liked, which would turn people to stone with a successful death attack.
It would be great if you could add different conditions to your options with a death attack instead of only kill/paralyze. Like: Petrification, coma, permanent wounds, cutting of a limb (Regeneration spell has got to useful for something XD) or even a curse or spell blight.
What miss from the Assassin are a little more options.
this in particular hit a note with me, what if we take something from kirthfinder and give the assassin the ability to scale certain class abilities ala synergy? This way, while still a Prc, it will actually function similarly to a general archetype for any class. I will work something up, though expect spell-casting will return(in a +1 caster level form). I believe it should be a class ability called continued training. also here is a link to a thread that converted the assassin into a archetype, for those interested. link
so beginning thoughts on continued training...
Continued Training:An Assassin continues to develop their training from previous occupations to further the abilities. Pick one of the following classes that you have levels in, your assassin levels stack with the indicated class' levels to determine the effective level for the abilities listed. This however does not grant new abilities the class would normally get at those effective levels, for example higher level bloodline powers and bonus spells due to class features.
Archetypes that swap out these abilities, but not others not on the list, scale as well. An example is the Archeologist's Luck class feature.
Barbarian, Duration of rage, Trapsense, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and effective Barbarian level for the purposes of rage powers.
Bard Duration of Bardic performance, Bardic knowledge, effective spellcaster level and spells known/per day.
Cleric, Effective cleric level for current domain powers (does not grant ones you don't have), and effective spellcaster level and spells known/per day (this does not include bonus domain spells).
Druid, Duration of Wildshape(but not uses per day), Nature bond, and effective spellcaster level and spells known/per day
Fighter Bravery, armor training, and weapon training, and effective Fighter level for the purposes of feats.
Monk Unarmed Strike Damage, AC Bonus, Fast movement, and Ki pool.
Paladin Smite, Divine Bond, lay on hands, and effective spellcaster level and spells known/per day.
Ranger Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain, Hunter's bond, and effective spellcaster level and spells known/per day.
Rogue Sneak attack, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trapfinding, and Trapsense.
Sorcerer effective spellcaster level and spells known/per day (but not bloodline spells), effective sorcerer level for bloodline powers.
Wizard effective spellcaster level and spells known/per day (but not bonus school spells), effective wizard level for school powers.
Definitely a work in progress, will do the rest later, but for now thoughts? I do realize it makes a better rogue than a rogue, but to me that screams more of a rogue fix than anything.
bump for now
Continued training looks too good, especially for spellcasters. I could understand domain powers, arcane school and bloodline abilities, but spells per day / known is too much, I think. It might be more reasonable if it were +1 spell caster level per two levels, but even then it would seem to be too good.
I do mean open discussion, if you love it feel free to state why. That being said, I personally feel kinda meh about that paizo Assassin (and only slightly less so about the 3.5 version, though the magic felt stapled on). Number one on my list is removing the evil only BS. Assassin's don't always mean ruthlessly killing the family man for a pocket full of coins. My favorite example of non-evil Assassins is how the league of Assassins started out in the Wanted comic book universe. anything anyone else want to see differently?
For starters I'd take out death attack and put in the ninjas assassinate but I'd switch the stat it keys off of from CHA back to INT.
I'd do this on the grounds that assassinate is straight up better and if the assassin is to have any hope at all of competing then he at least needs a good save or die attack..
I'd also remove the evil only clause as well as the "kill someone just to become an assassin" clause.
Really though everyone else makes a good point, most of it can be stripped down into rogue talents. It wouldn't even be that many.
Death attack (or rather assassinate)
Poison Use
Poison Resistance
Hidden Weapon
Quiet Death
Hide in Plain Sight (why is this not already a rogue talent?)
Swift Death
Angel of Death
- Torger
Full BaB, weapon training, and fort/ will buffs. I do miss the limited spell progression from the old days.
There seems to be some good restructuring ideas for the assassin. For those interested in a rogue setup, i provided a link above. I think half caster progression is a better idea since that would restrict (for example) a level 10 sorcerer and 10 assassin to level 7 spells. It would also only grant the first 4 bloodline spells. I do feel full bab, while feeling thematic, would probably be to much of a good thing for this prc. then again maybe not, but I feel 3/4 bab is a nice rounding point to bring all the classes to be CLOSER to equal footing when taking this PRC. I will be looking at changing some of the base abilities of the class to make it actually feel like a decent choice. One thing I am considering is adding on to the true death a curse effect (per the spell) against someone who fails at the attempted raising. It turns them trying resurrect someone into a booby trap. Will round out Continued training later, with the updated spellcasting clause.
How about you get a thematic ability depending on the classes you had before this one?
Barbarian
Add Assassin levels to duration of rage
1/rage you may apply Sneak Attack damage to a single atk regardless if an enemy is flatfooted or not.
Bard
Add Assassin levels to duration of bardic performance
You may study a victim that is fascinated by your bardic performance for a death attack. Executing the death attack ends the fascination effect (if the victim survives).
(Can be thematically played for a Siren... first she sings luring you in and then you get the kiss of death)
Cleric
Add Assassin levels to Channel Energy progression. If you channel positive energy you learn to channel negative energy in addition to positive, however it only deals half damage (or heals half).
Druid
Add Assassin level to Wildshape progression or Nature bond progression
If you chose Wildshape every form you assume gains one poisonous attack (usually bite).
If you chose nature bond and have an animal companion, the animal gets a poisonous attack (usually bite).
If you chose nature bond and have chosen a domain, then you get the poison spell as spell-like ability with the DC depending on your HD rather than spell or caster level.
Fighter
Add Assassin levels to Bravery, armor training, and weapon training.
If you successfully conduct a combat maneuver and beat the CMD by 5 or more you automatically deal your sneak attack damage to the creature.
Monk
Add Assassin levels to Unarmed Strike Damage, AC Bonus, Fast movement (not the Ki pool because if you want that you'd take Ninja levels)
If you fight without weapons (your unarmed strike) your sneak attack dice are increased to d8.
Paladin
Add Assassin levels to Smite or Divine Bond
If chose Smite you may forgo the Cha bonus to hit and deal sneak attack damage on the first attack that hits each round (regardless of Dex).
If you have chosen Divine Bond for a weapon, you can poison this weapon as free action when you call the celestial spirit. You must provide one dose of poison for this (which is consumed) but your weapon stays poisoned as long as you keep weapon enhanced.
If you have chosen Divine Bond and a mount your mount becomes immune to poisons of any kind (meaning you can safely apply poison to its attacks if you wish).
Ranger
Add Assassin levels to Hunter's bond
If you have an animal companion, that animal gets a poisonous attack (like druid)
If you have a hunter's bond with your group you may give up sneak attack dice. Each dice you give up, allows all group members to use sneak attacks themselves (with damage equal to the dice you gave up). Allies that already have sneak attack gain a +1 insight bonus to attack and damage when successfully sneak attacking instead.
Rogue
Add Assassin levels to Sneak attack, Trapfinding, and Trapsense.
You become the master of using your environment to deal deadly damage. You may deal sneak attack damage with any weapon (improvised or not) and can use dangerous environment and other odd situations to do so as well (Sneak attack with a piece of bread, SA with a chandelier dropped on somebody,... The GM may reduce the SA dice to d4 in case of very soft or harmless objects (like the bread) and to d3 for downright silly stuff (farting in someone's face for non-lethal sneak attack).
Sorcerer
Add Assassin levels to your Sorcererlevels to determine bloodline powers and abilities (except spells).
Add all spells with poison in their name to your list of spells known.
The casterlevel and DC for all these spells are increased by 2.
Wizard
Add Assassin levels to your Wizardlevels to determine your school specialization powers.
The casterlevel and DC for all spells with poison in their name are increased by 2.
(The abilities need cool names and better worded descriptions. I only focused on the effects so far. ^^)
Not bad, Karuth. Looks cool and doesn't come off as too powerful. I particularly like the druid/ranger's poisonous animal companion, as well as the hunter's bond (companion) ability. Extending your sneak attack to your allies is clever--I like it! The rogue stuff is silly, though--totally immersion breaking, at least for me (assassins are supposed to be grim or reluctant figures, not hooligans, at least in my opinion).
Yeah rogue is hard to come up with unique stuff. Assassin is a rogue so much people suggest making the Assassin abilities rogue talents.
But as for immersion. I imagined the chandelier more like Phantom of the Opera where the Assassin makes a kill like that. Certainly not hooliganish ;3
that is awesome Kuruth, when I put a doc together that's definitely going in.
Use the Red Mantis Assassin prestige class. And definitely keep the evil-only alignment.
In general I find that how prestige class works is flawed by default.
Archetypes are a way better option overall.
Prestige classes try to be too flexible but at the same time never really are.
What would work better would be a system like the Paragon path of DnD 4 (I know DnD 4 sucks etc), but the paragon path concept is actually quite cool.
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Remove the Evil-Only requirement.
Give us a proficiency with silenced pistols.
Give us bonuses for wearing tuxedos.
Assassin just became fantastic.
I do mean open discussion, if you love it feel free to state why. That being said, I personally feel kinda meh about that paizo Assassin (and only slightly less so about the 3.5 version, though the magic felt stapled on). Number one on my list is removing the evil only BS. Assassin's don't always mean ruthlessly killing the family man for a pocket full of coins. My favorite example of non-evil Assassins is how the league of Assassins started out in the Wanted comic book universe. anything anyone else want to see differently?
I would change the alignment restriction to non-Chaotic. Assassins have rules, contracts and codes of conduct. Those without such things are merely murderers.
Furthermore, I agree with the idea of good assassins. After all in the immortal words of Chiun, the Master of Sinanju,
"Assassination is the highest order of public service."
Furthermore, I agree with the idea of good assassins. After all in the immortal words of Chiun, the Master of Sinanju, "Assassination is the highest order of public service."
Remember that this is the same guy who used to refer to Ivan the Terrible as "Ivan the Just"...
@ Vamptastic: Cue James Bond music.
You know what, I'm gonna play a Rogue who wears suits/tuxes and is proficient with firearms at some point. I don't care.
@Lazerx, by that logic do you only have chaotic evil/neutral barbarians? Restricting alignment just because most (notice not all) in literature are, is basically doing the same thing. First, if killing without remorse is evil, then so are most adventurers. Heck I don't see iconics like harsk losing sleep over it. Second saying all assassins have no remorse is like saying all monks never kill, that's up to player concept not class mechanics. Heck my favorite "iconic assassins" are the brothers from boondock saints. They say a prayer for the intended target's soul right before they kill them.
The assassin class as represented in the game isn't the assassin's creed sort. They aren't killing for some greater purpose. They kill because that's what brings home the bacon. Killing for them is a job. Hence, when taking a level in the class you are required to kill someone for no other reason than to gain entry into an assassin's guild. I've always assumed that the would-be-assassin just does the job, no questions asked. That's how he proves himself capable. He's got to compartmentalize his morality. It's okay to kill, because that's what he's supposed to do. Someone's gotta do it, right? That's evil.
Now, if you want to play a repentant assassin, that would probably mean beginning the campaign at a higher level to compensate for that fact (you would need to be an ex-assassin and thus have at least a couple levels in the class, requiring level 6 or 7 at the very least).
However, if you want to break this mold and create assassins that hunt sinners, or those that have divine or political motivations, perhaps the evil alignment could be dropped. Notice, though, that this is not the assumption. The assumed assassin, for which the class was designed, is a cold-hearted murderer.
Which is why this the "change the assassin thread". Dropping both evil and killing requirements already came up, and i tend to agree, what lazerx was saying was only evil people could be assassins.
Maybe im wrong for trying to build an assassin prc thats more open to more classes, but the thing is i don't care. There's probably justification to turn any prestige into an archetype, but that in turn limits what that prestige will be capable of. If you want to leave the assassinations to evil ninja/rogue, so be it, more power to you. You should play the way you want to. I know I plan to. My goal here isn't to justify the assassin prc as is, frankly its terrible. But say if i want to restart my old druid assassin from 3.5, and build it viably, some restructuring is necessary. Back in 3.5 we agreed to lift the evil restriction and instead specified that you must successfully carry out a hit assigned by the assassins guild under certain conditions. He also let me substitute my spell list for the assassins, the i used the assassins spell progression. This led to multiple assassins guilds springing up in our homebrew world, often in direct opposition of each other. When i finally retired him, he had started his own guild for nature casters geared towards "quietly" protecting natures interest.
I am glad people liked my ideas, even if they need some polishing :)
Any class can be an "assassin". The prestige class is more than that, though. Death attack is nice, but it's not the defining aspect of an assassin. A greatsword-wielding fighter decked out in full plate could still be an assassin (albeit, a not very subtle one, but an assassin nonetheless).
The prestige class, it seems to me, explores a very specific character type, namely that of the evil assassin (with an affiliation to a guild). This concept grew out of the old "assassin" of AD&D, me thinks, which was a rogue alternative.
So, there's a fair amount of tradition involved here, which is what I think LazarX has touched on.
That said, I think that creating a more inclusive assassin class would be fine. It might appease a variety of character concepts and builds, but it would, by necessity, lose a lot of flavor. If you provided different avenues to "insert flavor here" via class abilities in the form of continued training, then I think you could strike a balance in terms of mechanics/theme.
Just please don't disregard the origins of the class (I know tradition isn't always a good thing, but this is one bit I'm in favor of keeping; there should always be a place for, and some perks for, being a truly evil fellow).
Back in 3.5 we agreed to lift the evil restriction and instead specified that you must successfully carry out a hit assigned by the assassins guild under certain conditions.In other words as the PrC designates. "Killing someone for no other reason than to join the assasin guild." In my book that's an act of an evil character, no matter how you might want to whitewash it.
except the character was applying to league whose function was to eliminate extremely evil people in power. The target in question was a well known governor, whom the guild revealed to be a practicing cannibal, capturing and feeding off of the poor. Not exactly an evil act by "my" standards, but of course good and evil are always a matter of perspective.
In my homebrew game, we fixed the Assasin PrC based in two concepts:
1. The alignment requirement was changed to "any lawful".
2. The Assasin was a divine-related PrC.
In this game, the assasins were an elite, secret group devoted to the death and balance goddess (a la Pharasma). They killed, yes, and without hesitation, but it was more due religious zeal than the joy of killing or disrespect for other's life.
They must remain lawful, for the goddess demands absolute obedience from them, and to understand the importance of their duty as keepers of balance... even if they can't fathom the deep consequences of their acts.
In my homebrew game, we fixed the Assasin PrC based in two concepts:
1. The alignment requirement was changed to "any lawful".
2. The Assasin was a divine-related PrC.In this game, the assasins were an elite, secret group devoted to the death and balance goddess (a la Pharasma). They killed, yes, and without hesitation, but it was more due religious zeal than the joy of killing or disrespect for other's life.
They must remain lawful, for the goddess demands absolute obedience from them, and to understand the importance of their duty as keepers of balance... even if they can't fathom the deep consequences of their acts.
i am rather taken to that idea, though i would leave the motivation open a bit more, and just make it non chaotic. Because, seriously, a bard assassin just sounds awesome.
Versify his dmg base with a called favored enemy, bane weapon, and or weapon spec and greater.
Instead of death attack, up his crit threat range and crit multiplier. And let him apply SA on a confirmed crit.
Poison use should add bonuses to poison dcs and cap in immunity.
Utility spells like vanish, lead blades and such or give him a "ki pool" like the ninja with ninja tricks.
And get rid of evil only alignment.
This would be acceptable.
Versify his dmg base with a called favored enemy, bane weapon, and or weapon spec and greater.
Instead of death attack, up his crit threat range and crit multiplier. And let him apply SA on a confirmed crit.
Poison use should add bonuses to poison dcs and cap in immunity.
Utility spells like vanish, lead blades and such or give him a "ki pool" like the ninja with ninja tricks.
And get rid of evil only alignment.This would be acceptable.
I'll look into the total ramifications of these suggestions, though I doubt they'll be too much. Still on the fence about full BAB though. I don't want this to become an automatic choice for several classes, but I want it accurately turn ANY class into an assassin. In a game where stealth is a single skill, it doesn't seem implausible that someone from ANY background, could direct their skills to covertly taking out a specific target. I want to have decent support for both martial and magic, arcane and divine. It's going to be a hell of a project folks. Hopefully I am not biting more than I can chew.