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This question is not mine, but one found unanswered on another forum. Was hoping James could answer it, but he said to instead put it here.
"A small Cavalier can take a wolf mount at level one. A wolf has 13 hp (2d8+4), AC 14, and a 1d6 bite attack.
If you're at 4th level, you can get a dog mount. A dog has 6 hp (1d8+2), AC 13, and a 1d4 bite attack.
....How does that make sense!? You get access to an (objectively) less powerful mount at a higher level?"
My guess? Is it because the dog starts out small sized, then is medium at 4th level? If so, you guys might want to spell this out to people a little better.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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This question is not mine, but one found unanswered on another forum. Was hoping James could answer it, but he said to instead put it here.
"A small Cavalier can take a wolf mount at level one. A wolf has 13 hp (2d8+4), AC 14, and a 1d6 bite attack.
If you're at 4th level, you can get a dog mount. A dog has 6 hp (1d8+2), AC 13, and a 1d4 bite attack.
....How does that make sense!? You get access to an (objectively) less powerful mount at a higher level?"
My guess? Is it because the dog starts out small sized, then is medium at 4th level? If so, you guys might want to spell this out to people a little better.
You're doing it wrong. Cavaliers don't just get the default wolf or dog from the Bestiary. A cavalier's mount progresses exactly like a Druid's animal companion, so at 4th level your mount has 4 hit dice no matter what type it is.
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My guess is that they aren't referring to the common dog, but the riding dog, which has significantly better stats than the former, and that has better base ability stats than a wolf (as well as having Acrobatics with a huge bonus to jumping).
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Mount (Ex): A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and
trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions
as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as
his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he
is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium
cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can
select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he
is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals
as suitable mounts.
I think you're missing the bolded part.
The mount functions the same as a Druid's animal companion. When you hit 4th level, it just expands the choices from 2 to 4.
At 4th level, a dog mount could have the following stats:
Dog Animal Companion
Effective Druid Level 4
N Medium Animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent
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DEFENSE
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 34 (4d8+16)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Speed 40 ft
Melee bite +7 (1d6+6)
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STATISTICS
--------------------------------------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 20 (24 vs. Trip)
Feats ???, ???, ???
Skills ???, ???, ???
SQ tricks (???, ???, ???)
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My guess is that they aren't referring to the common dog, but the riding dog, which has significantly better stats than the former, and that has better base ability stats than a wolf (as well as having Acrobatics with a huge bonus to jumping).
Unfortunately, no, they are referring to the common dog.
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@n00bxqb -- And at that level a wolf would be large size and still have better stats.
A Wolf animal companion CAN become large size at 7th level (not 4th). Since it stipulates "The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount," you'd have to keep the Wolf medium sized, I believe.
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@n00bxqb -- The question is, why would you take a common dog at druid 4 and not keep the wolf at druid 4?
The dog is better at level 4 ...
Dog Animal Companion
Effective Druid Level 4
N Medium Animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent
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DEFENSE
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 34 (4d8+16)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Speed 40 ft
Melee bite +7 (1d6+6)
--------------------------------------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------------------------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 20 (24 vs. Trip)
Feats ???, ???, ???
Skills ???, ???, ???
SQ tricks (???, ???, ???)
4th-level ability score increase: CON
Wolf Animal Companion
Effective Druid Level 4
N Medium Animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent
--------------------------------------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------------------------------------
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 30 (4d8+12)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +2
--------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------------------------------------
Speed 50 ft
Melee bite +5 (1d6+3 plus trip)
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STATISTICS
--------------------------------------------------
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +3; CMB +6; CMD 19 (23 vs. Trip)
Feats ???, ???, ???
Skills ???, ???, ???
SQ tricks (???, ???, ???)
4th level ability score increase: CON
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Math is off, supposed to be CMB +5; CMD 18 (22 vs. Trip) for the Wolf.
Question: I know a small character can ride a large creature, but at what point does size difference constitute whether the creature is suitable or not for riding? I can't seem to find anything in the CRB that says anything specific, just vague text.
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Don't think the animal every becomes less suitable to ride
As for the difference between a dog and a wolf, a Wolf would be better. It's supposed to be.
Think of the motif, a Druid(and all those animal trainer types after) tame wild animals to harness their power. As such, domesticated animals are inherently weaker, since their more wild counter parts are supposed to be bigger and stronger.
Still, from a gameplay standpoint, the dog is more valuable from level 4 to 7. At 7 and after though, the wolf is better. And since a Druid, pays no cost to switch, as was recently pointed out, you pick up the better animal for a time when you want.
Why have it be an option though if it will eventually be weaker though? Flavor, and not every game goes beyond 7th level, so there the pros of the Wolf aren't always gonna take effect.
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I suppose (didn't do the math) that between 4 and 7 the dog is better, then the wolf pulls ahead again when it upgrades to large.
As far as I know there are no limits as to when an animal becomes too big to ride. I mean people ride Elephants etc, and a halfling can ride a horse if he likes.
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You can't use fast mount or dismount on a mount more than one size category larger than yourself.
AFAIK that is the primary downside of your mount getting too big. Well that, and fitting inside dungeons.
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Its not about it being better.You can't have a small mount with a small character, your mount must be at least medium. Hence dogs at level 4,they can't be choosen as a mount before that.
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You can't use fast mount or dismount on a mount more than one size category larger than yourself.
AFAIK that is the primary downside of your mount getting too big. Well that, and fitting inside dungeons.
Ah good catch. Though IIRC, an exotic harness from UE might get around that. Too lazy to double check though.
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Its not about it being better.You can't have a small mount with a small character, your mount must be at least medium. Hence dogs at level 4,they can't be choosen as a mount before that.
That's fine, but unless you're planning on starting at 4th level, chances are you've got an actual bond with your wolf, and aren't going to just dismiss him for the dog for three levels, and then ask for him back at 7th.
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Hey guys.
I'm the one who posted the original question on D20psfrd's facebook group. I was just looking over the cavalier class in case I wanted to make an Order of the Paw halfling. So, when I looked up small mounts, I just saw the power discrepancy between the wolf and dog. I had no idea it was this complicated...
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The reason you can take a dog as a mount only at 4th level is not because it is an upgrade over a wolf or anything. It's because only at that level does a dog become the appropriate size to be used as a mount. If they started out medium sized, they would have been listed as level 1^mounts for small cavaliers.
The whole animal companion list is far from balanced, some are just downright better than others and don't have to compensate for it at all, so that is why you will see druid players, who don't choose their companion for style, take a big cat 90% of the time.
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Isn't there also the option to not upsize a wolf at 7th lvl? How would the dog and wolf compare if they both remain medium?
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Isn't there also the option to not upsize a wolf at 7th lvl? How would the dog and wolf compare if they both remain medium?
Yep, There is an option to keep the wolf at the same size, increasing DEX and CON by +2 instead. It still has some advantage over dogs though, since it has the trip ability on its bite.
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Your options at 7th level for the Wolf are either: Large size, +2 natural armor, +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con or Medium Size, +2 Dex & Con.
I think the basic level 7 option is heavily preferable unless you have a very specific concept. You gain +2 to Str and Dex anyway by level 7, making the overall Dex loss negligible.
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Your options at 7th level for the Wolf are either: Large size, +2 natural armor, +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con or Medium Size, +2 Dex & Con.
I think the basic level 7 option is heavily preferable unless you have a very specific concept. You gain +2 to Str and Dex anyway by level 7, making the overall Dex loss negligible.
...generally, the concept of a small sized cavalier is to have a mount that is just the right size to fit into the world of medium sized races. It means they can always stay mounted.
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...generally, the concept of a small sized cavalier is to have a mount that is just the right size to fit into the world of medium sized races. It means they can always stay mounted.
Until your mount poops in someone's house. Then they don't want your mount in their house anymore.
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Unless they are gully dwarves, then they want you over all the time.
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Until your mount poops in someone's house. Then they don't want your mount in their house anymore....generally, the concept of a small sized cavalier is to have a mount that is just the right size to fit into the world of medium sized races. It means they can always stay mounted.
Well...I suppose that might be a problem...but more of an RP thing. Heck, I'd encourage it to do so when we are raiding the citadel of the mega-lich or the temple of the mad half-fiend orcs.
Plus, I'd imagine that combat training would house training (unless paizo wants to release more tricks that makes us buy more of the things we were doing already using that rather scarce resource).
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My Gnome Paladin rides a "Fox" and I am using the Wolf stats; I value the free trip quite a lot.
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Welcome to the boards, but that post you responded to was super old. Many of those people aren't even around on the boards anymore.