The important question is - do you have someone in your party who can cast enlarge person on you (or can you get intelligent item which would do that or supply of postions)? Extended reach from Large size combined with big number of opponents makes for a great Whirlwind Attacks.
I highly recommend a cloak of the hedge wizard and several potions of enlarge person.
The only problems with whirlwind attack is that to get full use out of it, you need to put yourself in harm's way (surrounded by multiple foes), so be sure to have a stellar AC. What's more, it is a full round action, which means said bad guys will usually get to attack you first.
That being said, I really love it and have used it to great success.
for my fighter .
lvl 7, almost 8.
have most of the trip "tree" (improve, greater ,felling smash) + expertise + power attack + furious focus + combat reflexes.at level 8 i'll be able to have dodge-mobility-spring attack .
level 9 Whirlwind Attack.a few Q's:
1. spring attack was nerfed heavily sadly, now it's a full round action so - no felling smash or vital strikes. also, you cant you cant use it all the time, if opponent is upon you...2. Whirlwind Attack - seem great, but even with "lunge" (at level 10) how many time you really use it ?
is it worth the 4 feats?
I don't know if its worth it for your Fighter, not at this point.
I've used it to great effectiveness on a couple of Fighter builds, but one of the benefits of it is a well-designed Fighter can get the entire Whirlwind Attack chain by 4th level - meaning that with a reach weapon you can make an attack against everyone within 10' (more, actually) 2 levels before anyone else gets their first iterative attack. Combat Reflexes at 5th and Lunge at 6th and you're a walking Fireball every round. Dazing Assault at 11th level and it can get even more ridiculous.
I'm not a big fan of building melee types around combat manuevers, in part because they tend to be less and less effective as you level up (fewer enemies vulnerable to it, CMD's get ridiculously high), but I can't imagine that I would ever try to chase combat manuevers AND WWA... even with all those bonus feats you're just spreading yourself too thin.
One little point about WWA - a lot of people aren't aware that they can take a 5' step during a full attack action, which makes WWA with a reach weapon even more effective.
Why not just use great cleave...?
Why not just use great cleave...?
Because targets need to be adjacent to one another AND its reliant upon successfully hitting every step of the way. Those are some pretty big limitations.
If you were getting it at level 4 or 5 AND could find regular tactical use besides that action to Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack, I guess yes.
But at the level you're getting it, you should be getting 3 attacks a round on a regular basis (I guess you're getting Haste, right?).
How often will this feat give you more than 3 attacks/round?
And how many time this case will pop up with creatures that your sorcerer can't handle with a well placed Fireball?
How many times your magician will ruin that opportunity to be surrounded because, well, it's his job after all to divide and conquer?
To sum it up, I wouldn't take it.
Personnaly if I'd want to punish many opponents/round, I'd rather go with some way to improve my reach (probably Enlarge person then lunge to threaten adjacent squares as well), and take the Cleave tree (Cleave/Greater Cleave/Cleaving Finish/Improved Cleaving Finish), as well as Combat Reflexes/Stand Still/Combat Patrol
nut for cleave tree to work they can be no space inbetween targets they have to basicly be lined up for you and use spend 4 feats to emulate wirlwind and your can't not miss. roll a 1 in that at all and your attacks are done. it is way to situational and you end up -4 to AC.
Bolded section is a houserule, so not truly relevant to the discussion.
|
nut for cleave tree to work they can be no space inbetween targets they have to basicly be lined up for you and use spend 4 feats to emulate wirlwind and your can't not miss. roll a 1 in that at all and your attacks are done. it is way to situational and you end up -4 to AC.Bolded section is a houserule, so not truly relevant to the discussion.
Cleave ends if you miss. That's not a house rule.
|
It's generally worth it for a trip build. While it's true you'll have less guys @ high level, you'll often have "more than one" you can hit. I play a trip-polearm fighter in PFS, and he regularly gets some pretty fierce whirlwinds. To make it even better I splashed as an Inquisitor of Gozreh, letting me swift-action Enlarge person 5 times / day, giving me an effective "whirlwind" reach of 25 feat (after lunge).
It lets you effectively crowd-control a huge group, and doesn't cost you against single enemies. There's no other feat (or feat line) for a polearm tripper that really gives you that level of versitility for polearm players.
Cleave ends if you miss. That's not a house rule.nut for cleave tree to work they can be no space inbetween targets they have to basicly be lined up for you and use spend 4 feats to emulate wirlwind and your can't not miss. roll a 1 in that at all and your attacks are done. it is way to situational and you end up -4 to AC.Bolded section is a houserule, so not truly relevant to the discussion.
My mistake, I misread that and thought he was saying you miss on everything with a Whirlwind attack if any of them are a 1. Reading over again I see he meant Cleave. Apologies.
|
I personally dont think Whirlwind is right for ur character because u dont have the build to effectively use it. Getting the Trip feats and furious focus is spreading what feats u have very thin as stated above. But also were Whirlwind truly shines is when u have a reach weapon and/or ability to increase ur size. Best thing for that is a whip build with a wand of enlarge person or a friendly wizard willing to cast enlarge on u. That would give the whip character a 25ft reach dealing a 1d6 plus what ever is on the whip. Admittedly that not much damage but it gives the fighter the ability to do static damage to every thing around it while picking off multiple weak targets that survived the 2handed attack of the barb in the party if u have 1.
|
if i had to choose between going with cleaving finish or whirl wind attack i would chose greater cleaving finish. it is the same number of feats for a similar effect.
power attack, cleave, cleaving finish, great cleave, greater cleaving finish is actually easier on your fighter in terms of feats because you dont need to waste one on spring attack or mobility.
and whats best is if you like going for big hits with a reach weapon you can clear the board using combat reflexes in conjunction with greater cleaving finish+spiked armor (or IUS) can net you 20 hits in a round... that is from personal experience.
so basically forget dodge-> mobility-> spring attack -> whirlwind and go for cleave->cleaving finish->great cleave->greater cleaving finish
I highly recommend a cloak of the hedge wizard and several potions of enlarge person.
The only problems with whirlwind attack is that to get full use out of it, you need to put yourself in harm's way (surrounded by multiple foes), so be sure to have a stellar AC. What's more, it is a full round action, which means said bad guys will usually get to attack you first.
That being said, I really love it and have used it to great success.
Wow I missed that...a full round action and not a full attack. Granted I've nevver used it. So how does that work with initiative?
So how does that work with initiative?
Bad guys win initiative: They surround you in flanking positions and each get an attack. PROVIDED you survive, you may use whirlwind attack.
You get initiative: You run into a mob of enemies, possibly provoking, and attack one. Then on your NEXT turn after they have surround you in flanking positions and each gets an attack, you can make a single attack against all those within reach IF you are still alive.
Notes: It's generally better to delay and let multiple enemies come to you and then bop all of them with it. If they don't conveniently get into position for you, you can still take your turn to do something useful later in the initiative round.
I happen to have an amazing trip/reach build that trips everyone within his reach. Tripping his foes also gives him bonus attacks against each one (which I sometimes use to disarm them just for kicks). It's an awesome mass debuff in the right situation.
|
|
You don't need a weapon for what it's worth; even untrained in armed attack you can trip short-range, no armor spikes necessary. You just don't get your magic weapon-weapon training bonuses.
Reach + weapon will prevent the "if you survive" scenarios above; you should be tripping opponents as they close.
If you are a tripper, and especially a reach tripper, whirlwind is amazing even if you didn't really plan for it at the beginning.
|
The best whirlwind attacker build I've ever heard of is a whip user. That's a base 15' reach, more with lunge. The plan is to get the most out of the build, so they went greater trip to provoke an AOO when they trip (10' threatening reach with whip mastery chain) which would still give them the attack off whirlwind with combat reflexes.
The next part is for high level play and fixed the problem of positioning. The build then included a 3 level dip into horizon walker. Then take the dimensional agility chain to dimensional dervish. You can now teleport where you want and then whirlwind attack, doing the trip AOO strategy.
One thing I'm curious about though is the interaction between Dimensional Dervish and Whirlwind attack. Dervish allows you to teleport in between attacks in your full-round action. Can you theoretically whirlwind multiple times, teleporting between different patches of enemies?
This is a very feat intensive build by the way.
Attacks of opportunity are not extra attacks for taking a full-attack action. They are neither bonus or extra attacks but free attacks.
"Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work."
So how does that work with initiative?Bad guys win initiative: They surround you in flanking positions and each get an attack. PROVIDED you survive, you may use whirlwind attack.
You get initiative: You run into a mob of enemies, possibly provoking, and attack one. Then on your NEXT turn after they have surround you in flanking positions and each gets an attack, you can make a single attack against all those within reach IF you are still alive.
Notes: It's generally better to delay and let multiple enemies come to you and then bop all of them with it. If they don't conveniently get into position for you, you can still take your turn to do something useful later in the initiative round.
I happen to have an amazing trip/reach build that trips everyone within his reach. Tripping his foes also gives him bonus attacks against each one (which I sometimes use to disarm them just for kicks). It's an awesome mass debuff in the right situation.
may i get a linki-link for your happy trigger tripper?
If you're getting the spring attack tree anywho it might be worth it. On its own its.. meh. I've had it as a player and for a character, and even TRYING to surround him with mooks so he could use the feat, other players would pick things off on his turn to reduce its usability.
Nothing quite like being in a 5-foot wide hallway at the back of the PC line and being able to spring through everyone in front of you to trip and disarm the enemy before springing back to the safety of the rear.
Nonetheless, the Combat Reflexes feat calls them "Additional Attacks." Now if someone wants to argue there is a difference between additional attacks and extra attacks, I suppose they can, but it seems clear to me that the additional attacks from Combat Reflexes are specifically disallowed when using Whirlwind Attack.
I believe the intent is to prevent the use of any extra-attacks granted from things like two-weapon fighting, flurry, bab iteratives and the like, all of which require a full-round attack action to be used, and would stack with whirlwind attack without the forbidding language.
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
Whirlwind attack is specifically referring to these additional attacks you normally get to make when taking a full-attack action. Not AoO which are not "additional attacks" but are instead free attacks.
Additionally, your quote of combat reflexes refers to them as "additional attacks of opportunity", not merely "additional attacks". We all know an AoO is different from just an "attack".
Attacks are attacks, and Combat Reflexes clearly gives you more of them under certain circumstances, which I believe Whirlwind denies you.
Anyways, despite multiple requests in other threads, the issue has never been FAQ'd.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
I read the second paragraph as When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat (by making a full-attack action), you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities (that you would normally get by taking a full-attack action).
I understand you disagree with that reading. Honestly, for the pre-reqs, I'm inclined to give a more liberal read to whirlwind, as it really just sucks.
What if you have a 15 reach. Can you remove a hand off the haft of the weapon as a free action. And punch the rest in 5 feet with a spiked gauntlet? Can I use power attack with whirlwind and dazing assault ?
|
|
What if you have a 15 reach. Can you remove a hand off the haft of the weapon as a free action. And punch the rest in 5 feet with a spiked gauntlet? Can I use power attack with whirlwind and dazing assault ?
Yes yes and yes. Another fun one is using a reach weapon and pushing assault. Now you attack everyone around you with your reach weapon AND they're all thrown back. Whirlwind attack always reminds me of anime...
In our games, we still grant AoO's even while using whirlwind attacks. Game designers have specifically stated this is RAI.
|
|
...
Two thoughts occur to me, both involving mounted combat:1) Good stuff...
2) I'm not sure dismounting is even necessary. When mounted, you occupy all 4 squares of the mount, which would make your whirlwind arc even more impressive...
I'm pretty sure you would have to dismount. When your mount takes a single move, you're only allowed to take a single melee attack (although you are allowed to take a full-ranged attack). The dismount ability is what gives the ability to full attack. Cool stuff.
Couldn't he immediately follow the fast dismount with a fast mount and then take his full-attack action (assuming the fast-mount was successful)?
If it did not succeed he would spend a move getting back on, and then only be able to take a standard attack.