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Looks nice on paper, kinda like the 3.5 spiked chain. d10 damage is fine, a 20/x2 crit is OK I suppose. The real draw is the fact that it can be used with or without reach. I had visions of taking this and working up to Whirlwind Attack to smack everyone within 10'.
Problem is, it's a move action to adjust the length. That's not a big deal at low levels before you get iterative attacks, but I'd guess that at higher levels it becomes annoying. In other words, no smacking everyone within range unless they're all exactly 10' or exactly 5' from you.
So, does this weapon really offer anything another polearm with reach doesn't? I mean, if a foe moves adjacent to you and you're wielding a glaive, you can always (usually) just take a 5' step and continue attacking at reach. You can even do that and go ahead and full attack if you get iteratives. Taking a move action to adjust the chain length of the dorn dergar would be a waste - you may as well 5' step just like the glaive wielder, and then what's the difference?
The Darting Viper feat allows you to change reach as a Swift action with the Dergar if you're using it 2-handed or as a move if you're using it one-handed through the DD Master feat.
Thanks! I missed those feats, since I don't have DoG.
CountMRVHS wrote: Looks nice on paper, kinda like the 3.5 spiked chain. d10 damage is fine, a 20/x2 crit is OK I suppose. The real draw is the fact that it can be used with or without reach. I had visions of taking this and working up to Whirlwind Attack to smack everyone within 10'.
Problem is, it's a move action to adjust the length. That's not a big deal at low levels before you get iterative attacks, but I'd guess that at higher levels it becomes annoying. In other words, no smacking everyone within range unless they're all exactly 10' or exactly 5' from you.
So, does this weapon really offer anything another polearm with reach doesn't? I mean, if a foe moves adjacent to you and you're wielding a glaive, you can always (usually) just take a 5' step and continue attacking at reach. You can even do that and go ahead and full attack if you get iteratives. Taking a move action to adjust the chain length of the dorn dergar would be a waste - you may as well 5' step just like the glaive wielder, and then what's the difference?
What I like about it is this - its a two-handed weapon that can be used with reach or not, allowing you to put your feats (like weapon focus) into a single weapon type. The usefulness of that comes when in one encounter you're fighting a horde of bubears at 5' and in the next you're fighting a stone giant with a reach of 10'. Imagine a Barbarian trying to use Come and Get Me, for instance, and the necessity there for having a weapon which reaches whatever distance your foes are most likely to attack you from.
Yeah, I'm really liking it.
The Dorn Dergar Master feat is intriguing too, as I'm planning (or trying to plan) a sort of all-over-the-place Dwarven fighter. I want him to be able to TWF with a heavy pick and a dwarven maulaxe, but also be able to get some reach in, and maybe some combat maneuver stuff.
So if I'm getting TWF anyway, I could be swinging the dorn dergar in one hand and keep the maulaxe in the other, and one of my weapons works at reach, while the other can hit adjacent foes. Crazy!
Meanwhile, until then, I could get Power Attack and put together some interesting Cleave combos, potentially - especially when/if I get Cleaving Finish.
I think Whirlwind Attack is just too much to fit in, though. Cleaving Finish, Cleave, and Darting Viper will hopefully give me the cinematic coolness and effectiveness I'm looking for.
Something a little like this...
1 TWF, Power Attack
2 Cleave
3 Cleaving Finish
4 Weapon Focus (dorn dergar)
5 Darting Viper
6 Imp. TWF
7 Imp. Overrun/Bull Rush/Sunder (can't decide yet)
8 Weapon Spec. (dorn dergar)
9 ? Combat Reflexes?
10 ?
11 Cleave Through
12 Gr. TWF
etc. Still working it all out, obviously.
Pretty neat weapon - I have a brand-new character who'll have one, but would have been using it exclusively if Dorn-Dergar Master didn't require TWF.
Hmm, on closer inspection, Cleave Through might be pretty limited - you can take a 5' step after an initial attack hits, and attack another foe with your Cleave if they're now in range - but they have to 'meet all the other prerequisites' - which I'm assuming means the second foe would have to be adjacent to the first?
If I just take Lunge instead, that would probably be an easier way to get me more distance.
CountMRVHS wrote: Yeah, I'm really liking it.
The Dorn Dergar Master feat is intriguing too, as I'm planning (or trying to plan) a sort of all-over-the-place Dwarven fighter. I want him to be able to TWF with a heavy pick and a dwarven maulaxe, but also be able to get some reach in, and maybe some combat maneuver stuff.
So if I'm getting TWF anyway, I could be swinging the dorn dergar in one hand and keep the maulaxe in the other, and one of my weapons works at reach, while the other can hit adjacent foes. Crazy!
Meanwhile, until then, I could get Power Attack and put together some interesting Cleave combos, potentially - especially when/if I get Cleaving Finish.
I think Whirlwind Attack is just too much to fit in, though. Cleaving Finish, Cleave, and Darting Viper will hopefully give me the cinematic coolness and effectiveness I'm looking for.
This would be my recommendation if you really want to get some good use out of the Dorn Dergar, though obviously if you prefer to chase the two-weapon fighting feat its all moot.
Dwarven Two-Handed Warrior (Dorn Dergar)
Feats:
1st - Dodge
1st - Power Attack
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
5th - Whirlwind Attack
6th - Lunge
7th - Combat Reflexes
8th - Weapon Focus: Dorn Dergar
9th - Greater Weapon Focus: Dorn Dergar
10th - Weapon Specialization: Dorn Dergar
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Dorn Dergar
13th - Vital Strike
14th - Improved Vital Strike
15th - Greater Vital Strike
Forget about shifting the length from a move action to a swift action - when you have to use a move action, make a standard attack action, the rest of the time attack with reach and take advantage of Combat Reflexes.
Whirlwind Attack is great. Whirlwind Attack with reach is even better. Lunging Whirlwind Attack with reach is better still and Dazing Lunging Whirlwind Attack is the flat out bomb. Also, remember that you can take a 5' step during your Whirlwind Attack... opens up some serious possibilities.
That looks pretty solid. I may downplay the TWF aspect to some extent to work in some of that. Maybe just TWF and Improved TWF will be enough - starting with at 16 Dex, Greater TWF seems really out of reach.
Of course, this build you've posted could be used with any reach weapon - the dorn dergar doesn't bring anything special to the table that, say, a glaive doesn't. That's why I'm tempted to go with some of the options that allow me to make use of its special qualities. Of course, taking those feats would mean delaying Whirlwind Attack, if I go that route.
The primary benefit of Whirlwind Attack, I assume, is the fact that it allows you to apply conditions (like dazed) to many more targets than normal. In terms of sheer hit points, it's probably best to focus on making *one* bad guy completely dead, rather than spreading out damage to lots of them (right?). Of course, its other benefit is unarguable coolness. :)
The whole point of the cleave/reach chain is that dwarves get access to Goblin Cleaver and Orc Hewer, which removes the requirements of being adjacent for valid cleave targets. Also, if you look at Surprise Follow Thru from the APG, although it is listed in the h-orc section, it does not actually require you to be a half orc. It is there because one of the archetypes for h-orc rogue gets it as a rogue talent.
Dwarven THF 7/rogue thug 5 with a Dorn Duergar:
20 pt. buy : Str 17 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 5.
Increase Str with levels for the better stats for creation.
1F: PA/cleave
2F: Goblin Cleaver
3R: Orc Hewer (d6 sneak)
4F: (dbl Str damage on first swing)
5F: Cleaving Finish, Surprise Follow Thru (sneak on all cleave targets)
6R: rog tal(Befuddling Strike, -2 attacks makes up for cleave AC loss)
7R: Great Cleave (2d6 sneak, can lose 1d6 sneak to make target sickened)
8F:
9F: Imp Cleaving Finish, Imp Surprise Follow Thru
10R: Rogue Talent (wpn focus)
11F: wpn spec
12R: 3d6 sneak
Feel free to sub in dazing assault and darting viper for the 2nd rogue talent and the weapon spec, that 2pts of damage is worth less than dazing in my opinion.
Although, reading Dazing Assault. At the first level you can take it, it has a save of Fort 21 (BAB 11). CR 11 creatures have between a +14/+16, so 25-35% chance to fail after you have taken a -5 on the attack, (leaving you with approx 10 + magic bonuses trying to target AC's in the 25-28 range for CR 11 creatures). so... a 50% miss chance assuming you have 5-7 points of additional bonuses above and beyond your 18 base str. then you have a ~30% chance for them to fail the save.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, to most people, the Dorn Dergar looks useless or a waste. The damage isn't there, the critical multiplier isn't there, the range isn't there.
I say that it's quite possibly one of the most underappreciated weapons in the game.
You combine that with the right dwarven feats, and anyone within reach is fair game. It's feat intensive, but it means that you can essentially run headlong into a swarm and hit everything in the group.
Why?
Dwarven feats and weapon abilities. The Dorn Dergar, with the right feats, can be used one handed and can also switch between reach and close. This means you can go Two Weapon Warrior, wield two Dorn Dergars, and with Spring Attack, Cleave Through, Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, and Giant Killer, not to mention cleave and great cleave, you are now a mean murderous machine. Add to that the weapon abilities Impact and Advancing, and now you can take several five foot steps during your turn (Put advancing on both Dorn Dergars and then it's a five foot step for each weapon). Plus, include in that the fact that both weapons can be reach or close during a round of combat, and man oh man you just are now able to hit anyone and everyone within fifteen feet.
You wanna be a real jerk? Combine that with Whirlwind.
There you go.
Oh, and surprisingly that's not a bad weapon or setup for a mobile fighter either. Go human with that wierd blood trait so he can take dwarf feats, or just go straight up dwarf.
I give the weapon WITH the appropriate feats, Dwarf Race- 9/10
Weapon by itself, on a martial class, 4/10
CountMRVHS wrote: That looks pretty solid. I may downplay the TWF aspect to some extent to work in some of that. Maybe just TWF and Improved TWF will be enough - starting with at 16 Dex, Greater TWF seems really out of reach.
Of course, this build you've posted could be used with any reach weapon - the dorn dergar doesn't bring anything special to the table that, say, a glaive doesn't. That's why I'm tempted to go with some of the options that allow me to make use of its special qualities. Of course, taking those feats would mean delaying Whirlwind Attack, if I go that route.
The primary benefit of Whirlwind Attack, I assume, is the fact that it allows you to apply conditions (like dazed) to many more targets than normal. In terms of sheer hit points, it's probably best to focus on making *one* bad guy completely dead, rather than spreading out damage to lots of them (right?). Of course, its other benefit is unarguable coolness. :)
Just a few points:
The primary benefit of Whirlwind Attack in the middle to later levels is having the option of applying those conditions to many more targets than normal - you are still perfectly capable of focusing all of your attacks on a single target just like everyone else when the situation calls for it. On the flip side, you have gain the ability to make full BAB attacks against 2, 3 or a dozen foes at 5th level, before anyone else even gets their second iterative attack. That is simply huge.
Yes, this is a build you could use with any reach weapon - in fact its derivative of my weaponmaster build using a bardiche to tremendous effect. The added benefit of the dorn dergar is that you can use it with reach or not depending on the situation which, at the end of the day, is the weapon's only real advantage.
Major_Blackhart wrote: The Dorn Dergar, with the right feats, can be used one handed and can also switch between reach and close. This means you can go Two Weapon Warrior, wield two Dorn Dergars, and with Spring Attack, Cleave Through, Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, and Giant Killer, not to mention cleave and great cleave, you are now a mean murderous machine. Add to that the weapon abilities Impact and Advancing, and now you can take several five foot steps during your turn (Put advancing on both Dorn Dergars and then it's a five foot step for each weapon). Plus, include in that the fact that both weapons can be reach or close during a round of combat, and man oh man you just are now able to hit anyone and everyone within fifteen feet.
You wanna be a real jerk? Combine that with Whirlwind.
There you go.
Oh, and surprisingly that's not a bad weapon or setup for a mobile fighter either. Go human with that wierd blood trait so he can take dwarf feats, or just go straight up dwarf.
I thought about that, but I don't know how the cleaving would work when wielding a dorn dergar in each hand - cleave is a standard action, so you wouldn't be able to use both (except maybe with the lvl 9 ability of a 2-weapon warrior), and the penalties for using both would only go down to -2/-2 at lvl 11 2-weapon warrior. Maybe I'm missing something there, though. It is definitely cool to picture flailing away with two of the things! But if I'm going to TWF with the dorn dergar, my thinking is it would be better to use one in the main hand (at reach) and keep a light off-hand weapon so you threaten every square within 10' - assuming you could position yourself to where that would be an advantage.
Probably the way to really optimize the DD is to use it 2-handed, though, since if you're grabbing Power Attack anyway you would get more mileage out of that feat.
I'm just not 100% sure that's how I want to do it.
I'm really torn between the Cleave route and the Whirlwind Attack route. Some help deciding would be great! Here's the problem(s):
-Both routes would require roughly the same feat investment (if I'm grabbing Dwarf-specific Cleave feats up to Orc Hewer at least)
-I don't want to necessarily be married to the dorn dergar - my original vision for this character was a dwarf wielding a heavy pick in one hand and a dwarven maulaxe in the other, so I'd like to take TWF at level 1 and use the dorn dergar to give me options rather than as the be-all, end-all of the build.
Pros for Cleave:
-Cleave requires Power Attack, which sets me up easily to take a combat maneuver feat like Improved Sunder/Overrun/Bull Rush. That gives me some more tactical options.
-Cleaving is a standard action (unlike Whirlwind's full-attack action), which allows me a move to get into position and still whale on multiple foes.
-Fewer 'wasted' feats climbing this tree (unlike Whirlwind's Combat Expertise, Mobility).
-Each feat taken allows me to do something cool (whereas most of the feats leading up to Whirlwind are passive)
Pros for Whirlwind:
-Potentially easier to use than the Cleave options, since each successive attack doesn't require that the last attack was successful.
-Dodge is a nice passive bonus to AC, which will be low since I'm not using a shield.
-Spring Attack could come in handy, though as a Dwarf it will be arguably less useful than for those with 30' speed.
In theory I could fit in both feat trees, but it's doubtful this guy will get much higher than 10th level, so I want to make sure any cool tricks come online fairly early.
tl;dr - which is better to work toward, dwarf-feat-style cleaving or Whirlwind Attack?
note that con for cleave is also the target has to be next to each other they can't not have be space inbetween them. lunging whirl wind lets you attack all targets with in 15 ft of you. if you are enlarge even more. your more like to have more targets spread out all over the place in your long reach as compared to 3 or more sitting in this pattern xxx if the pattern is like this x_x you can't cleave.
Right, but those dwarf-only cleave feats let you bypass that restriction - Goblin Cleaver lets you cleave Small-sized foes even if they're not adjacent to each other; Orc Hewer lets you do the same vs Medium or smaller foes, etc.
Unfortunately, the ebst I can say in this situation is that its up to your GM's playstyle.
Both feats are very good trees, but in the end it all depends on what you want to be able to do.
My main issue with the whole thing is that cleave, even with greater cleave, etc, just isn't very good. It's decent at low levels, but as you continue to level up it becomes less and less valuable.
Sure, you can eventually by being a dwarf and by taking cleave, great cleave, goblin cleaver, orc hewer, power attack (required) and darting viper (6/10 total feats you can obtain) you can hit everyone in a wide area around you. Up to 20ft if you use a ring of enlarge person. Now lets assume you're surronded by 4 (level appropriate) enemies in the 20 ft radius. Lets assume you don't mess up your first attack, which will keep you from making any additional attacks, and in fact you make all your attacks. You deal maybe 20 damage on average to each enemy at level 12. It's not insignificant, but it's not as good as deal 40 or 60 damage to one opponent. Generally speaking, its a better to focus fire one enemy than spread out damage. If you're GM likes to employ a single BBEG, you're feats aren't useful. Cleave is useful when there lots of enemies who are lower level than you, but once you get away from that its stops being particularly useful and starts being more of a gimmick.
CountMRVHS wrote: Right, but those dwarf-only cleave feats let you bypass that restriction - Goblin Cleaver lets you cleave Small-sized foes even if they're not adjacent to each other; Orc Hewer lets you do the same vs Medium or smaller foes, etc. Too feat heavy for my taste with not much benfit to get the same effect with whirlwind with move.
I think you get more use out of whirlwind line and do moblity fighter archtype. The moblity fighter not going to tie you down to the one weapon your going get to move and full attack and also move and whirlwind. bonus to hit and damage every time you move at least 5ft. bonus to hit and damage to all weapons no just set groups. Dodge add to ac moblity add 4 more on top of tha when you just want to rush past people. combat expertise added also. You are now open up you up to combat menuver feats to trip or bullrush ect. if you want. Spring attack no aoo agansit you from reach. Wirlwind + Combat relfexs + greater trip + reach weapon = walking talking AOE. you put people on the ground and get extra attack on them all at highest attack bonus. add Power attack and Furious focus take no pentaly on the whirlwind and get extra damage on your AOO, you still take pentaly on your AOO. Add Cornugon Smash also to whirlwind and you can do damage and cause all to be shaken also. I go straight fighter also I would even not dip in to rogue. the only reason to really dip there are skill points and evasion.
either even if you go cleaving route look at Furious focus chain and Cornugon Smash. to add little something extra on your kills and hits.
I'm looking at the Dorn-Dergar for a Stonelord Paladin. They can't move once the Defensive Stance is up, which means 1) you want Reach to hit people and 2) you can't 5ft step away if they get adjacent to you.
I was going to go with a Dwarven Longhammer or Longaxe and just use a Boulder Helmet on anyone who gets next to me, but that means I may end up not fighting with a secondary weapon a lot of the time.
I figure I can load everything onto the Dorn-Dergar, and then maybe later consider getting the Transformative weapon property to give it more favorable stats when I know I won't need to change reach.
Dorn-Dergar would be better for you. It is still useable close up. it a move action to adjust grip two handed, swift action with darting viper feat. use use your move action to adjust grip with out actual moving so keep your Stance up. you have a small feat chain to use it one hand if you want.
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Huh, if this is legal I may get to have some cake & eat it too (in that I really want to play around with TWF at least for a few levels):
1 Combat Expertise, TWF
2 Dodge
3 Mobility
4 - at level 4, retrain TWF to Spring Attack, then take Whirlwind Attack as the lvl 4 feat
The FAQ on the SRD suggests this can work. Whirlwind Attack at level 4, woohoo!
I've been convinced to go the Whirlwind route. Part of it is the difficulty of pulling off consistent Cleaves; part of it is that the Cleave feats all basically do similar kinds of things; part of it is simply that I've never played a character who had Whirlwind Attack.
That plan also leaves me some room to get some other tricks in, like...
5 Darting Viper
6 add back TWF if I miss it
7 Combat Reflexes or Lunge
8 Power Attack (to lead toward Dazing Assault perhaps)
That is legal according the FAQ http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o4s
Also note that dodge, moblity and Combat expertise when in use also apply to your CMD, so you will be a lot hard to trip or disarm or even be stopped from standstill feat. If you decived to run past everyone strait to the BBEG. when those feat are in use. That what I like about whirlwind versality and you have the ablity to do more tricks. The fighter in my group end up retraining Cleave for lunge at level 8 because it was just not as effective as he thought it would be. get a lot more use out of lunge with his scythe. if he had a reach weapon it would be even more effective. The dwarf barb in my group does two-weapon fighting with dwarven dorn dergar and shield for bashing.
Nice!
Now, Lunge - it says that feat increases the *reach* of your melee attacks. Say you're attacking with a longsword. You use Lunge. Does this mean that while you're using Lunge, you can't attack foes who are adjacent to you? In other words, does Lunge just turn your weapon into a reach weapon? Or does Lunge allow you to attack adjacent foes *as well as* foes 5' beyond your current reach?
I'm guessing it's the former, which decreases the utility of Lunge somewhat. The plan with the dorn dergar would be to take Whirlwind Attack and then Darting Viper so you could hit *everyone*, 5' and 10' away. If I use Lunge with a dorn dergar used at reach, if I had Darting Viper, I'm guessing I'd be only able to hit foes 10' and 15' away, NOT 5' and 10' and 15' away.
CountMRVHS wrote: Huh, if this is legal I may get to have some cake & eat it too (in that I really want to play around with TWF at least for a few levels):
1 Combat Expertise, TWF
2 Dodge
3 Mobility
4 - at level 4, retrain TWF to Spring Attack, then take Whirlwind Attack as the lvl 4 feat
The FAQ on the SRD suggests this can work. Whirlwind Attack at level 4, woohoo!
This is the beginning of how my Weapon Master is built except that he takes Cleave in place of TWF. Whirlwind Attack at 4th level is insane.
Lunging Whirlwind Attack at 6th is even better, and if you're going to be using a reach weapon don't forget Combat Reflexes at 5th...
CountMRVHS wrote: Nice!
Now, Lunge - it says that feat increases the *reach* of your melee attacks. Say you're attacking with a longsword. You use Lunge. Does this mean that while you're using Lunge, you can't attack foes who are adjacent to you? In other words, does Lunge just turn your weapon into a reach weapon? Or does Lunge allow you to attack adjacent foes *as well as* foes 5' beyond your current reach?
I'm guessing it's the former, which decreases the utility of Lunge somewhat. The plan with the dorn dergar would be to take Whirlwind Attack and then Darting Viper so you could hit *everyone*, 5' and 10' away. If I use Lunge with a dorn dergar used at reach, if I had Darting Viper, I'm guessing I'd be only able to hit foes 10' and 15' away, NOT 5' and 10' and 15' away.
Lunge allows you to attack foes further away in addition to foes closer to you.
Also, remember that you can take a 5' step during a full attack action, meaning during the Whirlwind Attack, increasing your attack area and bringing formerly adjacent foes into range. You don't need Darting Viper for that. In fact, I'm not sure you'd ever need it.
redward wrote: I'm looking at the Dorn-Dergar for a Stonelord Paladin. They can't move once the Defensive Stance is up, which means 1) you want Reach to hit people and 2) you can't 5ft step away if they get adjacent to you. I was thinking of the same concept, but as a heads up don't forget that Stonelords still get exactly one Mercy for their Lay on Hands and there is one that removes Fatigue; Defensive Stance suddenly got much more usable :D
Wiggz wrote:
Lunge allows you to attack foes further away in addition to foes closer to you.
Also, remember that you can take a 5' step during a full attack action, meaning during the Whirlwind Attack, increasing your attack area and bringing formerly adjacent foes into range. You don't need Darting Viper for that. In fact, I'm not sure you'd ever need it.
Huh. That's a really good point! And it makes room for more stuff, which is excellent. But also it means that one of the functions of the dorn dergar (that you can use it adjacent and/or at reach) is of less utility than I thought.
That still leaves open one of the other useful parts of the DD, though - that if you grab Dorn Dergar Master, you can wield a reach weapon in one hand, something you can't do with any other weapon that I know of except the whip. But I'm not sure how great that is.
Say I've got Whirlwind Attack and Dorn Dergar Master (plus TWF) in there somewhere. I'm wielding a DD in my main hand and a light weapon in the off hand. Without moving at all, I threaten enemies adjacent to me and 10' away (or out to 15' with Lunge). If I Whirlwind, I'm just using one weapon (I think...?), so the ability to threaten all those squares is kind of moot. If I'm full-attacking, I guess it's cool to be able to attack someone in my face with a light pick and someone over THERE with a big ol' chain. But I could probably also just move 5' while wielding the DD in TWO hands and get the same thing, *and* deal more damage with each hit, *and* apply Power Attack's bonus while avoiding the TWF penalty.
If changing the reach of the Dorn Dergar isn't useful, and wielding it in one hand isn't that useful, then I'm a little sad, since I may as well be wielding some other reach weapon in 2 hands - possibly one with a better crit range, multiplier, or damage dice.
So I'm hoping there *is* some great utility to the dorn dergar that I can make use of!
CountMRVHS wrote:
If changing the reach of the Dorn Dergar isn't useful, and wielding it in one hand isn't that useful, then I'm a little sad, since I may as well be wielding some other reach weapon in 2 hands - possibly one with a better crit range, multiplier, or damage dice.
So I'm hoping there *is* some great utility to the dorn dergar that I can make use of! Here's the thing - I think the Dorn Dergar's ability to switch back and forth between reach and not is extremely useful in a number of different situations... but I think its ability to change on the fly (via swift action) is a bit of fool's gold.
I mentioned before a Dwarven Barbarian I made once who used Dazing Assault and Come and Get Me to great effect, and having a Dorn Dergar allowed him to use it as a reach weapon when facing reach foes and as a standard weapon when facing smaller opponents. That let him put all of his feats (like weapon focus) into a single weapon which was also nice.
Truth be told, the primary reason I would choose the dorn dergar is for flavor reasons, for concept reasons... its not a bad weapon at all, and its unique, but mechanically its fairly average. The point is so what? If you like it, if it fits your concept then absolutely take it - just don't get so enamored of it that you gimp your character chasing additional feats which really don't do much for you.
Ah jeez, this whole time I was under the impression whirlwind attack was a special full round action, not a full-attack. This changes certain tactics I've been using quite a bit.
it is a special full round action, that lets you make a single attack at all targets with in reach. You can replace any single attack with trip. If you do a trip or another combat maneuver with it a GM may lock in to doing it to every target. greater trip allows you to take an AOO when you successfully trip some one. AAO happen out side normal flow of time so should be able to get them while whirlwind but some DM disagree. There has been some debate on this and varies to DM to DM. Even if they don't let you get the AOO for the trip from greater trip, you will get them for when the creatures try to stand back up. either way it is still a strong tactic.
You can apply combat expertise to whirlwind also but you take the -x to the roll raise your ac. You can apply power attack to it also. but user suffer -x as normal to attack roll. Furious focus negates the - on power attack from the first attack, but considering whirlwind is just one attack there should be no - to any of the attack roll with it. if DM argues other wise, the feat is still useable on the first attack roll. So it is not a waste. it still useful. Cornugon Smash lets you demoralize every target struck with power attack as a free action. So if you do damage you cause fear also. every thing here works with it in some way or another.
Dorn Dergar a good weapon for this damage tactic because you can do this with change the reach as swift action with darting viper. lunge, increase your range to 15ft. add power attack, more then likely hit every target once then, try to demoralize them all as a free action.(that helps everyone in your party, because now the creatures have -2 to everything.)take a 5ft step during or after to reposition your self for the creatures to come in on you in the on their turn and uses or not use your swift action to adjust the reach. if you don't you more than like going to get some AAO on targets. your next turn targets or more then likely going to be on you or with in 10ft of you or they ran far from you. if they are with in 5 and 10ft, use swift action to take in slack, rinse and repeat or adjust reach and full attack on target, or trip what ever.
it is open to what ever you want and it is always useful. when you can't trip you can do damage. If you want to be mobile and get to close to BBEG to start pushing him to the ropes you can do that by charging use combat expertise and fighting defensively. to give you ac a huge boots to AC vrs all the AOO you trigger. lets say your level 8 fighter thats is +1 from dodge, +2 from combat expertise, +4 from mobility, and +2 or 3 from fighting defensively if you have 3 ranks in acrobatics. your looking at +10 bonus to CMD, AC, touch ac at vs AAO and +6 vs all other attacks at level 8. So you could easily run strait in to middle of a bunch of creatures end up not getting hit and go balls to the walls offense on your 2nd round.
These are very powerful tactics and work well together especial if optimized, but if DM shoot some of this some stuff down mention. There are still effective option and can still be used and not wasted. There are some builds out there that can just fall apart if dm saying no that does not work like that and agreeing with other side of a debatable topic.
chaoseffect wrote: redward wrote: I'm looking at the Dorn-Dergar for a Stonelord Paladin. They can't move once the Defensive Stance is up, which means 1) you want Reach to hit people and 2) you can't 5ft step away if they get adjacent to you. I was thinking of the same concept, but as a heads up don't forget that Stonelords still get exactly one Mercy for their Lay on Hands and there is one that removes Fatigue; Defensive Stance suddenly got much more usable :D Oh yes, and at level 6, I will be taking that. But without any magic upgrades, I'll only have 5 uses per day by level 11, so I don't want to have to rely on that.
I'll have to leave a dot here.
As far as Defensive Stance and mobility, if you have a Bard in your party, or you can get a custom item, you can utilize the Bard spell Invigorate. While the spell is active you take no penalties from fatigued or exhausted conditions. The way I interpret that interaction with Defensive Stance, is that since you aren't fatigued, you can reenter the stance immeadiately, similar to Rage Cycling.
Do you think it'd be worth carrying a buckler with a dorn dergar? That way you could choose between wielding it one handed with the buckler AC bonus or two handed for the bonus damage from power attack?
Rashagar wrote: Do you think it'd be worth carrying a buckler with a dorn dergar? That way you could choose between wielding it one handed with the buckler AC bonus or two handed for the bonus damage from power attack? I probably wouldn't because of the additional -1 to attack (on top of Power Attack). Maybe look into a Ring of Force Shield?
Can be activated or deactivated as a free action, so with Darting Viper you can attack Two-handed for damage, then swift action to change to 1H, free action to put up the shield. Now you have the AC and can still make AoOs when your turn is over.
CountMRVHS wrote: So, does this weapon really offer anything another polearm with reach doesn't? The ability to switch back and forth between reach and non-reach seems only slightly advantageous, in a few situations. To me, that's not the selling point of the Dorn-Dergar.
TWF makes the Dorn-Dergar a decent choice (for dwarves), since you can wield it in one hand with the proper feat. It's good, but is it the best? Well, that's pretty subjective and situational.
Here's a situation where the Dorn-Dergar out-shines everything else (in my opinion):
The Giant Killer in RotR
-Dwarf, has bonuses against giants
-Takes Ranger for FE:Giants
-Dual-wields Dorn-Dergars with appropriate feats (though it's -2 to TWF since not light)
-Dorn-Dergars have reach, useful against giants
-casts Lead Blades, big damage
-Gets the Twin Thunders feat line
-Becomes a Skyseeker!
Just my opinion, but in a campaign with a lot of giants like RotR, this guy is much scarier (and more flavorful) than the Dwarven fighter with a glaive.
So, if your question is about why a character may choose this weapon, hopefully I've provided a convincing common example from a popular AP. Should you choose this weapon for your specific plans in a general campaign? Well, I think that the posters in this thread have done a great job of analyzing the pros/cons of Dorn-Dergars in general situations, so hopefully you can make a very informed decision.
That would definitely be a good combo for the Dorn Dergar.
Khazrandir wrote: CountMRVHS wrote: So, does this weapon really offer anything another polearm with reach doesn't? The ability to switch back and forth between reach and non-reach seems only slightly advantageous, in a few situations. To me, that's not the selling point of the Dorn-Dergar.
TWF makes the Dorn-Dergar a decent choice (for dwarves), since you can wield it in one hand with the proper feat. It's good, but is it the best? Well, that's pretty subjective and situational.
Here's a situation where the Dorn-Dergar out-shines everything else (in my opinion):
The Giant Killer in RotR
-Dwarf, has bonuses against giants
-Takes Ranger for FE:Giants
-Dual-wields Dorn-Dergars with appropriate feats (though it's -2 to TWF since not light)
-Dorn-Dergars have reach, useful against giants
-casts Lead Blades, big damage
-Gets the Twin Thunders feat line
-Becomes a Skyseeker!
Just my opinion, but in a campaign with a lot of giants like RotR, this guy is much scarier (and more flavorful) than the Dwarven fighter with a glaive.
So, if your question is about why a character may choose this weapon, hopefully I've provided a convincing common example from a popular AP. Should you choose this weapon for your specific plans in a general campaign? Well, I think that the posters in this thread have done a great job of analyzing the pros/cons of Dorn-Dergars in general situations, so hopefully you can make a very informed decision. I think if you're going that route, the two-handed weapon combat style is a better choice, since ancestral weapon only affects 1 weapon at a time, and TWF with 2 dorn dergars means you're taking a -4 penalty to each attack.
A Two-Weapon Warrior (fighter) archetype would bring those penalties down to the -2/-2 range, but of course would mean losing all the ranger stuff. Even without 2WW, though, those -4s might not be a big deal, given all the bonuses for favored enemies - plus there's an alternate race trait for Dwarves that gives them +1 to attack vs humanoids of the giant subtype instead of vs goblinoids.
Lots of good points here from everybody, thanks!
Huh, can't see how to edit my post, so sorry for the double.
I'm curious if combat maneuvers can be performed at reach with a weapon. Improved Trip is low-hanging fruit for my build, and I'm wondering if I can use the dorn dergar to trip someone from 10' away. If I CAN, that would sort of make Improved Trip partly moot, since I presume I wouldn't be provoking an AoO anyway unless the target of the maneuver has reach himself.
CountMRVHS wrote: Huh, can't see how to edit my post, so sorry for the double.
I'm curious if combat maneuvers can be performed at reach with a weapon. Improved Trip is low-hanging fruit for my build, and I'm wondering if I can use the dorn dergar to trip someone from 10' away. If I CAN, that would sort of make Improved Trip partly moot, since I presume I wouldn't be provoking an AoO anyway unless the target of the maneuver has reach himself.
Afaik, if you're using the weapon for it, you base it on the weapon's attack reach. So, not only are you "able" to use your reach weapon to trip at 10', you are "unable" to trip at 5' with a reach weapon (unless it's a Whip) and you'd have to do a normal, "non-weapon" trip (gaining no bonuses from weapon focus and the like) or use a backup non-reaching weapon (Unarmed Strike, shorten your Derger, alternate weapon, etc).
Kazaan wrote: CountMRVHS wrote: Huh, can't see how to edit my post, so sorry for the double.
I'm curious if combat maneuvers can be performed at reach with a weapon. Improved Trip is low-hanging fruit for my build, and I'm wondering if I can use the dorn dergar to trip someone from 10' away. If I CAN, that would sort of make Improved Trip partly moot, since I presume I wouldn't be provoking an AoO anyway unless the target of the maneuver has reach himself.
Afaik, if you're using the weapon for it, you base it on the weapon's attack reach. So, not only are you "able" to use your reach weapon to trip at 10', you are "unable" to trip at 5' with a reach weapon (unless it's a Whip) and you'd have to do a normal, "non-weapon" trip (gaining no bonuses from weapon focus and the like) or use a backup non-reaching weapon (Unarmed Strike, shorten your Derger, alternate weapon, etc). That is correct. There are still some compelling reasons to go for Improved Trip, though: the +2 bonus, creatures with Reach (who still threaten you and can take AoOs), and access to Greater Trip (where you provoke AoOs).
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuver-Bonus
explains all bonus from weapon focus, weapon training and magic enchantment are applied to the roll in addition to penalty from power attack and other things. but you must be doing it with said weapon. so you have to say your doing it with the weapon, other wise it default to non weapon maneuver with range of 5ft.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Trip
They editors note. "No. When making a trip combat maneuver, you don't have to use a weapon with the trip special feature--you can use any weapon. For example, you can trip with a longsword or an unarmed strike, even though those weapons don't have the trip special feature. Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone."
yes you won't draw AAO from reach when you trip unless they have strike back feat. So you don't need improved trip. but the +2 to the roll helps as targets cmd are often at lot higher then an ac. And when they are within 5ft of you can still trip, after shorting weapons reach, This also open the door for greater trip which greats another +2 and grants you AAO to the person you just tripped. Also for each leg over 2 a creature has add they get a +2 to their CMD. SO the feat helps a good bit.
trip is very powerful, if you can pull it off, attack creature goes prone taking -4 to attacks and AC, and ranged weapons can not be used expect cross bow. They do get +4 to AC vs ranged attacks. it draws and AAO to when they get up or if they try to crawl away. So with greater trip you end up getting two or 3 AAO against the same target, and you stop there movement and leave them stuck with standard actions from that position. Give it a try without improved trip for a while and see if the extra +2 and greater trip would be worth it.
Awesome! Thanks for explaining all that to me, folks. I didn't picture this guy as a tripper when I started considering the weapon, but it would seem foolish not to add that in to his options if it doesn't take away too much from other things.
I've been playing a Hobgoblin Knifemaster Rogue and I use the Dorn Dergar as a secondary weapon that I've mostly been using to trip foes with to knock them prone and then stab with a dagger. It's a pretty fun weapon if you get creative with it.
Goblin Cleaver gets hugely fun if you are Huge, such as a Huge Earth Elemental. Just sayin.
Stitcher wrote: I've been playing a Hobgoblin Knifemaster Rogue and I use the Dorn Dergar as a secondary weapon that I've mostly been using to trip foes with to knock them prone and then stab with a dagger. It's a pretty fun weapon if you get creative with it. Try a necromancer build, you've got the knack for it!
I thought it might be a good weapon for a dwarven Goliath druid in the Giant Slayer campaign. Dumped two levels into fighter to save me the exotic weapon feat and further grant me two bonus combat feats. I started using that weapon at lvl 2.
1st Big Game Hunter
2nd Power Attack (Fighter)
3rd Cleave, Goblin Cleaver (Fighter)
5th Orc Hewer
7th Combat Reflexes
9th Stand Still
11th Great Cleave
13th Steel Soul
15th Giant Killer
With large size (huge at lvl 16) it seems to work pretty well. Also got the Destruction domain to add some rage.
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