Paizo and Pathfinder have all my respect and admiration for how they handle the game, the bussiness, the client support, etc.
Yet, I feel that Pathfinder as a game is still too "heavy" for my taste/time/memory, and I'd love to see the great talent of Paizo crew create something of a "old-school" Pathfinder. Something like no feats, not so many spells, streamlined skills, and such.
I saw there's a Beginner Box, but if I understand correctly, it only covers a few levels?
Do you think there will ever be an "easier" version of Pathfinder? Would you want to?
What is wrong with Beginner's Box?
Adding bigger numbers, more class abilities, more spells, etc, can only make the game more complicated,
so why not play at the low levels that BB restricts itself to?
can't a game be high-level, and not complicated?
we played a Savage Tide campaign using Rules Cyclopedia from level 1 to 36, and we had a GREAT time!
http://dndsavagetide.blogspot.be/
Sounds like you want to play a game where the Core Rulebook is the only allowable source fore players.This would eliminate more than 75% of feats, more than 65% of available equipment, more than 60% of spells, and more than 50% of classes, not to mention no archetypes. (Note, percentage reductions are a shot in the dark.)
Delazar, I think you may be looking for a different game system.
Fact is, Pathfinder is built upon 3.5. Some day, maybe, there will be a Paizo product that is radically different from the 3.5 system but I wouldn't count on it. On occasion Paizo staff have indicated that they are not anywhere near a Pathfinder 2.0 and I would figure that a simplified version of Pathfinder isn't even on their radar.
In short: the 3.5 system is about options, options, and more options. As long as Pathfinder is based on that system it will always be "heavy".
- Gauss
It can be done. First restrict the game to core Player's Handbook only. Next, drop all the feats that don't require fighter levels as prerequisite and instead make each automatically acquired by a fighter of the necessary level. This may still cause trouble for a low level fighter, so I'd give out a few of the other obvious feats (power attack, weapon focus).
I'd allow any other class to keep the 'bonus feat' lists. Like rangers with their combat styles or monks. Treat it as normal and allow the player to pick a new feat every other level but only from that list of bonus feats.
You may want to remove combat maneuvers. If not, at least restrict it to the simpler ones (trip, disarm, sunder). Also nix item creation feats.
Spells should be ok with only the PHB. The problem with messing around with actual spell casting classes is that the mechanics of spell finding and learning is core to their functionality. You could just ban Wizards and Sorcerers, but that does take some of the fun out of it.
The real hard part will be creating monsters or reverse engineering their stat blocks once you start removing feats.
Alternatively, you can look at E8. It is a mod to pathfinder where players stop gaining levels at 8th and instead gain additional feats at fixed xp points. Though admittedly this is meant to allow for long term low level games (where an orc warlord is still dangerous after a year of playing).
Mythic is coming out soon and looks to be the opposite. Allowing very high-power games at relatively low level.
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Sounds like you want to play a game where the Core Rulebook is the only allowable source fore players.This would eliminate more than 75% of feats, more than 65% of available equipment, more than 60% of spells, and more than 50% of classes, not to mention no archetypes. (Note, percentage reductions are a shot in the dark.)
Don't worry, 83.6% of all statistics seen on the internet are made-up anyway....
Even with just the Core Rulebook the game start to really slow down in combat after 10th level or so. Everytime my group hits level 12+ our 4 hour sessions are consumed with mostly one big fight or 2-3 smaller fights. There are ways to streamline combat to speed this up but it just gets slower with every level.
I would love to see a lot less math in the game (I get +2 from this spell, +3 from the bard, +1 from....and my target is stunned so....4 hits for....need to add in bane and....). This just gets tiring. It used to be Bless or Prayer for the most part and that was it. Now it's how many bonuses of different types can I stack to make my attack modifier 10 higher than normal.
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I believe Lisa Stevens was one of the people at WOTC responsible for analyzing the data from the collapsed TSR to try and determine why it went under. One of the conclusions was that TSR had too many product lines which fractured its customer base and thus cut into their slim profit margins. So I don't think they have any desire to fracture their customer base in two with one bunch supporting an "Advanced Pathfinder" and another supporting a "Basic Pathfinder". So I don't think there will ever be a basic pathfinder game.
As Mech E said, you could probably just strip down the Pathfinder game. If you don't want to use feats.....great, you don't have to use feats. If you don't want specialist wizards, well all you have to do is decide not to use them.
“The Most Important Rule
The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Mastershave a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.”
Page 9 Core Rule Book
Just remember this is your game and you can change it to fit your tastes. The game designers are expecting you to do that.
They are hoping you will have fun with the game, and make what changes you would like to make to the game.
This isn't quite an answer to your question, but, you might be interested in checking out Swords and Wizardry from Frog God Games. It's a clone of the original D&D rules. My understanding is that it is very rules light. The publisher has said that he plays it with his young children. He started them at 5 or 6 years old, if I remember correctly.
FGG also publishes a lot of their adventures in both S&W and Pathfinder rules, so you could pick up both copies a product and compare the two. They also published Tome of Horrors in S&W, so you'd have a TON of monsters to run players against if you write your own adventures.
Sure, I can make my own game out of it, but what I'm saying is, maybe I'm not the only one that thinks that Paizo is great, and would like a simpler game, and want a nice ready product to use, instead of cutting/pasting by themselves.
Maybe, since it would be "simpler" game, they wouldn't need to many brains working on it, and it could be done at reduced costs.
I think there's a market for this, and I think it would be great if Paizo could profit from it.
This isn't quite an answer to your question, but, you might be interested in checking out Swords and Wizardry from Frog God Games. It's a clone of the original D&D rules. My understanding is that it is very rules light. The publisher has said that he plays it with his young children. He started them at 5 or 6 years old, if I remember correctly.
FGG also publishes a lot of their adventures in both S&W and Pathfinder rules, so you could pick up both copies a product and compare the two. They also published Tome of Horrors in S&W, so you'd have a TON of monsters to run players against if you write your own adventures.
Yes, I got it. I actually have several retro-clones, and those have actually made me think "how would an old-school Pathfinder look like", and the answer was "AWESOME". So I hope it happens... :)
Sure, I can make my own game out of it, but what I'm saying is, maybe I'm not the only one that thinks that Paizo is great, and would like a simpler game, and want a nice ready product to use, instead of cutting/pasting by themselves.
Maybe, since it would be "simpler" game, they wouldn't need to many brains working on it, and it could be done at reduced costs.
I think there's a market for this, and I think it would be great if Paizo could profit from it.
The question is - why would you want a "simpler" version of Pathfinder from Paizo?
I can't argue with wanting a less option-filled version of the game. I love options, but even I sometimes feel overwhelmed. But there are already many non-d20 systems which are "lighter", and many variants on the d20 system which aren't as option-filled as Pathfinder is now. So there's no lack of choices if you feel that Pathfinder as-is has too much in it. So what would Paizo, specifically, bring to the table that none of the existing options do?
I don't know how big is the market for it, but I think that if Paizo would do such a game, it could get all the customers from the tens of retro-clones that are already out. I hear Castles & Crusades is doing pretty well.
Now imagine Paizo doing a high-quality product, full-color paper, WAR drawings, the works, with streamlined old-school rules.
It would "rule them all".
The question is - why would you want a "simpler" version of Pathfinder from Paizo?
I can't argue with wanting a less option-filled version of the game. I love options, but even I sometimes feel overwhelmed. But there are already many non-d20 systems which are "lighter", and many variants on the d20 system which aren't as option-filled as Pathfinder is now. So there's no lack of choices if you feel that Pathfinder as-is has too much in it. So what would Paizo, specifically, bring to the table that none of the existing options do?
For the reasons I stated in my first post: I love they way they handle their bussiness, I love how they handle their customers, and I think their team has GREAT designers.
And with Paizo, we could have professional support, great graphics, great quality! Several of the products already out are not exactly of the best quality. And really, I'm not talking only about the rules, I'm really talking about graphics, colors, the physical product.
<nostalgia on>
I remember whan I picked up a Planescape book back in the days, I had little lights in my eyes, and I felt a little warm and fuzzy inside, even before I cracked it open!
<nostalgia off>
I have the same feeling evey time I get one of the Pathfinder AP modules (the only thing I buy, to use wiht my ADnD 2e game), or when I take one of my Dungeon magazine from the shelf.
So, I guess to summarize it in one word, I want a Paizo product because I TRUST Paizo.
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Old school fans have little love for WAR since he reminds them of 3E and all the bad things that came with it. Black'n'white Erol Otus style is what floats their boats. So for starters, Paizo would have to develop new art direction, new writing style (one that's closer to OS "DM is a god" style) AND find a way to keep monthly Golarion setting output feasible for both product lines. That's quite a lot of work, and D&D Next, which by all indications will be an old school style game, is on horizon.
so wait, have you looked into Beginner Box, or not?
For the reasons I stated in my first post: I love they way they handle their bussiness, I love how they handle their customers, and I think their team has GREAT designers.And with Paizo, we could have professional support, great graphics, great quality! Several of the products already out are not exactly of the best quality. And really, I'm not talking only about the rules, I'm really talking about graphics, colors, the physical product.
So, I guess to summarize it in one word, I want a Paizo product because I TRUST Paizo.
I dont think we are going to see this in the forseable future. There were questions about extended support for just the begginner box ruleset, which is alot closer to pathfinder then you are suggesting, and the response has been pretty overwhelmingly 'not going to happen' from paizo staff. The same has been said of things like a 'scifi space opera' game system which is something that Lisa, the CEO would probably really like on a personal level to take a crack at.
Basically it has to do with paizo's business model. They dont release rulebooks and call it done. Their primary products in fact are not the rulebook line, but the adventure paths, setting books and supporting products.
So if they were to follow this model for a different game system they would have to essentially double the number of products they put out, to have campaign supplements, adventures, and things like the chase cards or condition cards for the simplified ruleset. This would pretty much double the staff required for paizo to put out these products in particular adventures and adventure paths would be an issue because those are already so time sensitive.
To top that off, not only are they nearly doubling costs, but this would split their fanbase. Some pathfinder fans would play one system and some would play the other. And while some completists would buy both, most would only buy one or the other. And while it might bring in SOME new buyers, it probably wont offset the reduced sales of both systems.
Basically, it would increase their costs dramatically, and reduce sales on existing products. As much as I wouldnt mind seeing a lighter version of pathfinder to take a look at, I dont want to paizo end up business wise the way tsr did and overreach and end up falling apart.
What Kolokotroni said, Paizo doesn't just something and then never support it or use it in their other products, so if they do what you are suggesting then they would have to release other books to go with it or at the very least use those rules for APs, modules etc.
I hope this never happens if you want a rules light game Pathfinder is not that game and its one of the reason I enjoy pathfinder all the rules and options
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What Kolokotroni said, Paizo doesn't just something and then never support it or use it in their other products...
Except for the Beginner Box.
:P
Honestly, I'm gonna have to agree with most of the people here. Pick an old-school system, and run with it. I'd suggest Swords & Wizardry, as it has quite a lot of adventure support from Frog God Games, as well as two huge monster books. And they seem to be moving towards color books...Razor Coast was in color, and Tome of Horrors 4 is also going to be in color. And one of the nice things about a simpler system is that converting stuff from other sources is a lot easier.
Paizo's Pathfinder just isn't what you're looking for, and I have a feeling that Pathfinder will evolve even further away from it in the future. To me, their strength really is their adventures and flavor material...I actually find their mechanics to be a bit meh.
I don't really understand why when I mention Beginner's Box, the answer is "can't a game be high-level, and not complicated?". Regardless of the answer to that (although clearly, in a 3.x d20 system, any further class levels are adding more things = some level of complexity, even Commoners gain iteratives and more Feats), that doesn't address why BB is not satisfactory. What is wrong with playing within the scope of BB? 6th level /IS/ high level within the BB system. What is desired that BB doesn't provide that isn't adding complexity? MOAR HPs? Bigger bonuses (but not iteratives themselves?)
It seems pretty straight forwards to take one of the 'old school' AD&D clones, splice in Pathfinder's skill system, CMB system, perhaps spells as well... That's very little modification, and seems to be what you want. I don't see any evidence Paizo is doing anything else on this front, so I'm not going to follow some rabbit-hole for no productive purpose. I tried to give a straight-forward answer to the stated question, but it doesn't seem like the OP is interested in that.
can't a game be high-level, and not complicated?
we played a Savage Tide campaign using Rules Cyclopedia from level 1 to 36, and we had a GREAT time!
http://dndsavagetide.blogspot.be/
If you used it for a 3.5 game, then you can do it for Pathfinder for your group. Most of us play PF because of all the options it has. If they tried to trim it down I would want no part of it, and it is very hard, if not impossible, to make the adventures and AP's in way that they support two rules sets.
PS:The adventures are where a large part of the money comes from so messing with that is not a good idea.
PS2: Maybe it is better if you just simplify the rules you don't like, or ask the posters about a better way to hand rule/rules concerning X.
6th level /IS/ high level within the BB system.
This here is your problem.
When people ask this, they aren't asking for high level for BB. They're asking for high level for normal PF - at the very minimum 10+, sometimes 15+, wherever they draw the threshold line at. The main thing is, what's high level for BB is low level (or mid-level) for normal PF. That's why BB isn't a satisfactory answer. If they wanted that, they'd be playing E6 or something similar.
I can't tell you what specifically - the extra feats, the better feats and spells, the higher numbers, the options normally unavailable to low-level parties, or one of countless other options - the OP is looking for or what specifically about low-level gaming is unsatisfactory to him/her, but suggesting a game where "high level" equals what most APs consider appropriate level for Chapter 2 of 6 is probably not going to satisfy someone who's looking for answers on how to simplify a game running through Chapters 5 and 6.
Paizo and Pathfinder have all my respect and admiration for how they handle the game, the bussiness, the client support, etc.
Yet, I feel that Pathfinder as a game is still too "heavy" for my taste/time/memory, and I'd love to see the great talent of Paizo crew create something of a "old-school" Pathfinder. Something like no feats, not so many spells, streamlined skills, and such.
I saw there's a Beginner Box, but if I understand correctly, it only covers a few levels?
Do you think there will ever be an "easier" version of Pathfinder? Would you want to?
You're right about the beginner box only covering the first five levels. It's very good though (I'm in a very similar position to you - I really like Paizo but dont find Pathfinder particularly well suited to the games I like playing. The beginner box is simple enough for me, and it helps that I dont really like high level play).
.Despite wanting it, I suspect you and I are in a minority - it seems to me that most fans of Paizo are also fans of pathfinder's complexity. As such, I dont think there will ever be an "easier" version of Pathfinder as such, although I think a "Pathfinder Expert Set" covering levels 6-10 designed to follow on from the Beginner Box is a niche some innovative 3PP might like to try and fill.
Maybe this is what you're looking for.
http://www.d20swsrd.com/
It looks a lot like 2nd Edition brought up to current days standards.
this is beautiful! thank you, sir!
I understand, accept, and find nothing wrong in the fact that the majority is in favour of a "full-options" Pathfinder, but it seems many are a bit missing the point.
I know there are retro-clones out there, because I already use them... :)
Once again, I would just like that Paizo did a simpler game, because I think they could do one much better than all the others out there.
About support, I don't know how difficult it would be to just add it to their ongoing lines, for example, APs. BITD, stats blocks where 2-3 lines (not paragraphs) of text. Heck, I remember when in some module the BBEG stats block was "F10, AL C, 60 hp", done...!
(That is actually what I already do... I play the AP, using simplified monster stats from ADnD, or CnC, or what have you. So once again , I already use retro-clones, old editions, etc.)
They could do the whole "rulebook" in a 64 pags booklet, then maybe a simplified monster splat, also just 64 pages (you could fit a lot with simplified stats).
Then put everything online, like the PRD. Hey, they already have me as a client, I'm just wondering if, instead of just "happy", they could make me "drooling"... :)
A "Basic" game is a bad business model for a publisher. Also, there's a gazillion retroclones out there, free or almost free.
Delazar, I'm totally with you on your desire for a streamlined Pathfinder. The Beginner Box is my preferred "edition" of PFRPG. It's just enough rules to let us enjoy awesome Paizo adventures without getting bogged down in rules minutiae.
Having said that, though, I think the last thing you want is for anyone to publish your basic PFRPG. All that will lead to is another slow rise in option bloat as the publisher rightfully tries to create a marketable product to earn money from.
Your best bet is to just grab your PFRPG core rulebook (or visit the online SRD) and cherry pick the feats/spells/class traits/rules you want to include as your PCs advance past 5th level. Fer instance, I went ahead and added some easy encumbrance rules (shamelessly swiped from ACKS).