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@Aelryinth
Is your problem with crafting 8 hours while adventuring or crafting at all while adventuring?
Based on available evidence I'd assess he doesn't like it at all, but won't simply say that. I'm actually fine with that as a house rule, but tell your players up front instead of inventing reasons they can't.
My new houserule as a GM is no crafting (except for wands, potions, and scrolls).
My new houserule as a GM is no crafting (except for wands, potions, and scrolls).
But can you craft them on the road? :-)
*ducks for cover*
My new houserule as a GM is no crafting (except for wands, potions, and scrolls).But can you craft them on the road? :-)
*ducks for cover*
I threw the coffee cup, but you seem to have caught it.
In reality, without the more expensive items to craft I'd be willing to handwave most of the time requirement for these less game breaking items. (I've concluded that the players I play with are a terrible lot of min maxers, mostly predicated by two players who min max so hard that if you don't, you're irrelevant.)
I've actually been working on a long list of house rules for the next campaign I run. I will be rather...harsh.
Pathfinder Home Brew Rules
1) The GM has the final word at all times. The rules are subject to change at will, and will be arbitrated by the DM in whatever manner is necessary to preserve balance and fun for everyone at the table, including all players and the GM.
2) Books you may use:
a. Core Rulebook
b. Advanced Players Guide
c. Advanced Race Guide – without Race Builder
d. Ultimate Magic
e. Ultimate Combat
f. Ultimate Equipment
Anything from any other source requires explicit approval.
3) No psionics.
4) No 1001 Spells either.
5) No non-Paizo material. No “Pathfinder Compatible” material either.
6) No templates.
7) Undead are always without question, evil.
8) No evil characters. Neutral characters who commit too much evil will become DM characters.
9) No magic item creation. Limited to items in the rulebooks. If there is a specific combination you may ask for the DM’s approval to commission such an item to be built. You may not create such items without explicit approval. Potions, scrolls, and wands are the only items that can be crafted. They are done so using normal rules. To make up for no item creation, owned items can be sold for full price, but remember to pay full price for whatever you purchase.
10)Guns in Golarion do not use touch AC. Burrowing bullet is modified to function like Staggering Critical, except it does not require a critical hit. A greater burrowing bullet has the duration increased to 1d4+2.
11) You may not use age rules to increase your stats. If you ask, you will not be allowed to play a class with spell casting abilities.
12)Everyone gets a stat array of 18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10 as base to be modified by race as normal. If this is unsuitable you may use 25 point and the point buy system in the CRB.
13) No Guided Weapon Enchant.
14)Perception, sense motive, bluff, diplomacy, disguise, intimidate checks will all be rolled by the DM. I will need copies of your character sheet. You can take 20 on a perception check per the rules for normal take 20, but each 5 ft square takes 2 minutes to search.
15) No metamagic rods.
16)No autosuccess or failure. A 20 is a roll of 30, a 1 is a roll of -10.
17) Monk and Rogue get full BAB progression. Monk still follows the Flurry of Blows BAB progression listed in the CRB.
My new houserule as a GM is no crafting (except for wands, potions, and scrolls).But can you craft them on the road? :-)
*ducks for cover*
I threw the coffee cup, but you seem to have caught it.
I'm an intelligent magic item. I have powerful abilities that can only be used for my special purpose of coffee preparation and preservation.
@Aelyrinth
Last time I checked, you're a party, and you cooperate with each other. That requires you to be a team, and a team generally works together. That means if someone was wanting to craft on the road, then the whole *@&*# team would have the rings. Your argument is basically just that you don't like crafting on the go, and you cherry pick your arguments.
I'm an intelligent magic item. I have powerful abilities that can only be used for my special purpose of coffee preparation and preservation.My new houserule as a GM is no crafting (except for wands, potions, and scrolls).But can you craft them on the road? :-)
*ducks for cover*
I threw the coffee cup, but you seem to have caught it.
I meant to say artifact, not magic item. Yup, I'm an artifact of cafinated deliciousness.
I meant to say artifact, not magic item. Yup, I'm an artifact of cafinated deliciousness.I'm an intelligent magic item. I have powerful abilities that can only be used for my special purpose of coffee preparation and preservation.My new houserule as a GM is no crafting (except for wands, potions, and scrolls).But can you craft them on the road? :-)
*ducks for cover*
I threw the coffee cup, but you seem to have caught it.
Do the bonuses you grant stack with Blessing of Donuts?
Do the bonuses you grant stack with Blessing of Donuts?
They should.
But his bonuses won't stack with the Grace of Beignets. For that, you need the Tiny Hot Chocolate Gollum. Just make sure you don't wear any finger jewelry when you use the THCG.
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Do the bonuses you grant stack with Blessing of Donuts?They should.
But his bonuses won't stack with the Grace of Beignets. For that, you need the Tiny Hot Chocolate Gollum. Just make sure you don't wear any finger jewelry when you use the THCG.
F that guy! (THCG) He's a poser. Barely enough caffeine to jumpstart a mouse.
@Aelryinth
Is your problem with crafting 8 hours while adventuring or crafting at all while adventuring?
the former. Getting around the rules that have already been put in place to allow you to craft on the trail because you want to have your cake and eat it too irks me, especially when there is NO RAW to allow it, only attempting to exploit a grey area and manipulate the rules.
Heck, it's what the title of the thread is about...bending the rules as far as possible.
==Aelryinth
@Aelyrinth
Last time I checked, you're a party, and you cooperate with each other. That requires you to be a team, and a team generally works together. That means if someone was wanting to craft on the road, then the whole *@&*# team would have the rings. Your argument is basically just that you don't like crafting on the go, and you cherry pick your arguments.
OMG, and now you get to mandate magic items for the entire party because you want to bend the rules!
Are the horse wearing the Rings, too? Is everyone else in the party now bowing and scraping to your crafter? Perhaps they have other things they'd like to do with their time? No? You get to dictate it all, because you're the crafter.
Wow, I had no idea crafters automatically became the party tyrants. I'll have to try that out. Take up crafting, and don't tolerate other play styles.
None of which gets around the fatigue rules, of course, or the fact a Rope Trick hides people, not crafting chambers, nor the security issues of being on the road. All I see is a determined effort to circumvent the rules that are already in place that allow crafting at half value while on the road.
==Aelryinth
@Aelyrinth
Last time I checked, you're a party, and you cooperate with each other. That requires you to be a team, and a team generally works together. That means if someone was wanting to craft on the road, then the whole *@&*# team would have the rings. Your argument is basically just that you don't like crafting on the go, and you cherry pick your arguments.OMG, and now you get to mandate magic items for the entire party because you want to bend the rules!
Are the horse wearing the Rings, too? Is everyone else in the party now bowing and scraping to your crafter? Perhaps they have other things they'd like to do with their time? No? You get to dictate it all, because you're the crafter.
Wow, I had no idea crafters automatically became the party tyrants. I'll have to try that out. Take up crafting, and don't tolerate other play styles.
None of which gets around the fatigue rules, of course, or the fact a Rope Trick hides people, not crafting chambers, nor the security issues of being on the road. All I see is a determined effort to circumvent the rules that are already in place that allow crafting at half value while on the road.
==Aelryinth
If you don't want players crafting on the road so be it. Just tell them that and move on.
However, several of those points you say can't be gotten around by the rules have had several examples of how they can. You've continued to ignore what people say about them. That doesn't change the fact that they're present. The rules aren't perfect. That's why the DM has to make some calls. If you're DM you're welcome to just say no. What I take offense at it is people having opinions and calling them fact (see bold). It's a pet peeve of mine.
Actually, several examples have said they get around the restrictions...except they all rely on very favorable player interpretations of the rules, which the DM has no duty to buy into.
I perfectly agree that the DM should tell them none of this 8 hours of crafting stuff on the road. However, all I'm seeing is a lot of player defense that they should automatically be allowed to do so, despite knowing it's a rules exploit and loophole at best, and pure biased interpretation of existing rules, and ignorance of other rules, at worst.
I mean, c'mon, now I'm seeing that if there's a crafter in the group, everyone should be using one of their two Ring slots for Sustenance! Eesh.
==Aelryinth
Actually, several examples have said they get around the restrictions...except they all rely on very favorable player interpretations of the rules, which the DM has no duty to buy into.
I perfectly agree that the DM should tell them none of this 8 hours of crafting stuff on the road. However, all I'm seeing is a lot of player defense that they should automatically be allowed to do so, despite knowing it's a rules exploit and loophole at best, and pure biased interpretation of existing rules, and ignorance of other rules, at worst.
I mean, c'mon, now I'm seeing that if there's a crafter in the group, everyone should be using one of their two Ring slots for Sustenance! Eesh.
==Aelryinth
Here's the difference.
The reason it allegedly can be done is because the rules don't expressly forbid it though what is listed in the rules is perfectly supportive of the actions required.
The reason it allegedly can't be done is because the DM (or you in this case) are inventing reasons that it can't be done.
Edit: and this thread is expressly about rules manipulation. Meaning if it's not expressly forbidden it's fair game.
Now as I say in the other recent crafting thread, my gm and I have agreed that although Arcane builder and +5dc does mean that I can get 1000gp of progress in 3 hours at night in the uninterrupted safety of my secure shelter, we also have an agreement that I cant do more than 1000gp of progress per day no matter what. 1000gp per day of progress is enough to make you tired, so if you're doing it slow over 8 hours or cranking up the redbull and doing it in 3 with arcane builder and +5dc, at the end of those 3 hours you're wiped for the day (at least wiped out at crafting and need to step outside, get some fresh air, clear your head, get some sunshine and kill some stuff for a change. Raw states that the cap is 8 hours as fast as you can muster. Our houserule is the 1000gp per day is the cap, no matter how fast you can muster it. For our table the 1000gp in 3 hours doesnt mean I can spend a whole 8 hours per day at that rate and crank out 2600gp worth of progress per day. It means I can get my 1000gp of progress done in 3 hours and thats it... Even if i get interrupted I can start the 3 hours over and still get in my 1000gp of crafting done, my 2 hours of sleep in and be fine for adventuring at the same time as everyone else.
The advantage from the dm side is that an 8000gp item still takes you 8 days to make, and he doesnt bother interrupting my crafting in my secure shelter at night because i'm only taking up 3 hours of the campaign day crafting, only making 1000gp of progress instead of the possible 2666.66 available to me by raw if I were to ensure a safe crafting environment and waste 8 hours of each game day crafting, which would allow me to crank out that same item in only 3 days. The policy at our table also keeps him from having to put up with me teleporting to an undisclosed location and turning the crafting dial up to 11 on him every single day, which was, in truth, the thing he was more concerned with, and was the thing I totally didnt want to bother with ever doing in the first place.
If 2600gp of progress per day or wasting 8 hours of a travel day crafting is Aelryinths big beef then its actually the same beef our gm has, and the house rules we use at our table might be a better comprimise.... Its not RAW, its totally a houserule, but comprimise is important... RAW totally allows me 8 full hours at any speed I can muster, so I could totally teleport to my shop each day and be golden for 2666gp of crafting progress per day, which for some reason creates in him a crafter hating fury that makes him want to ban it outright, which would make me ban him from the table. What made that silly is that his being an interrupting stalinist anticrafting bastridge is exactly what made me want to be exactly the kind of supercrafting bastridge he hates. It was time for some comprimise...
I just figured out the specific parts of crafting our gm didnt like (teleporting to my lab and getting full crafting rates) and (crafting for 8 hours even while on the trail) and instead I was able to convince him that it was never my intent. I was interested in getting in my fullrate uninterrupted 1000gp of crafting per day in the shortest time possible (3 hours) so that it wouldnt interfere with the rest of the travelling campaign day, and i'd fight tooth and nail to get in that 1000gp per day of progress no matter what. And he's happy to let me have full non travelling uninterrupted rate since i'm using my secure shelter between like 2 and 5 in the morning each night. He's still free to ambush us but even if he interrupts my crafting (no progress) the battle clears my head and I can start the 3 hours over and craft from 5-8am instead. He knows that I'll never try for the 2600gp per day of progress, and he knows that i'll do whatever it takes to get the 1000gp of progress in no matter what, ideally in 3 uninterrupted hours in my secure shelter. That comprimise has been working pretty well for us...
If that ain't good enough, well, then I'm glad I'm at my table instead.
Actually, several examples have said they get around the restrictions...except they all rely on very favorable player interpretations of the rules, which the DM has no duty to buy into.
I perfectly agree that the DM should tell them none of this 8 hours of crafting stuff on the road. However, all I'm seeing is a lot of player defense that they should automatically be allowed to do so, despite knowing it's a rules exploit and loophole at best, and pure biased interpretation of existing rules, and ignorance of other rules, at worst.
I mean, c'mon, now I'm seeing that if there's a crafter in the group, everyone should be using one of their two Ring slots for Sustenance! Eesh.
==Aelryinth
Do you believe that you're going to convince the people who don't have a problem with it to have a problem with it? Because I think it should be obvious by now that you're not.
You've said your piece, and belaboring the point is (in my opinion) making you look pretty darn argumentative and more than a bit petty. Your opinion as a DM goes at your table; beyond that, it's just that - your opinion, but now you seem to be (perhaps it's not your intent, but that's how your coming off) demanding that people take as fact your interpretation of rules that you admittedly state are vague and unclear.
@Aelryinth
Is your problem with crafting 8 hours while adventuring or crafting at all while adventuring?the former. Getting around the rules that have already been put in place to allow you to craft on the trail because you want to have your cake and eat it too irks me, especially when there is NO RAW to allow it, only attempting to exploit a grey area and manipulate the rules.
Heck, it's what the title of the thread is about...bending the rules as far as possible.
==Aelryinth
Actually there is a (small) RAW passage that allows it, i am away of my books right now but i seem to remember something about dedicating your time to crafting (while adventuring) and you could get the full amount of crafting for the amount of time you spend, it also says something about doing it in 4 hours blocks of time.
In addition getting around the rules and be rewarded for your knowledge about them is kinda the point of the 3E system and the systems based on it, at least in my opinion.
I don't want to get sucked back into the specific arguments and counterarguments of this thread again except to point out that the many assertions that the PC would be fatigued after "walking all day" are easily countered by traveling in a cart or wagon. I'd imagine that somebody would propose traveling in a wagon is "just as tiring as walking" because the ride might (just might) be bumpy. At that point you could get a wand of Floating Disk and have somebody haul you around on a Disk which "remains level" and provides a smooth enough ride that it can be used to transport liquids despite being only 1 inch deep (that's not a lot of sloshing around...)
I'm sure people would still have a problem with this, but after a while the attempt to argue away such tactics using logic gets a little ridiculous. It might be better to say, "You know, logically you are right, but I feel that leads to a game balance problem, so I can't allow it." If that doesn't suit your DMing style, ego, or whatever maybe you could send annoying ghosts to plague anybody who tries to craft too much.
leo1925 - I think part of the problem might be that people assume crafting while adventuring but dedicating no particular block of time to crafting (which nets 2 hours of progress) is the same as crafting in 4 hour blocks. I believe that these two options are different and that the 4 hour blocks don't necessarily need to be at half speed. There's rules evidence that any area suitable for a Wizard to prepare spells is also suitable for crafting, but the rules don't specify what level of suitability a "suitable" area has, so there's a grey area which some folks insist on calling black or white.
Hopefully future supplements will clarify this and or provide workarounds for PCs who want to get some value out of their crafting feats in fast paced campaigns. Recent material like the valet familiar makes me think that the designers are leaning towards supporting the crafters rather than oppressing them.
My position is that the people advocating they can get in their full 8 hours are claiming unequivocally that all the rules are on their side...and they are not.
The counter-argument then somehow becomes I'm claiming house rules, because the rules don't actually back the PC's and they are complaining they can't have their cake and eat it, too?
Hah. I don't think so. I don't care if people 'don't have a problem with it'. What I care about is those people attempting to defend their position as explictly allowed as RAW, when it's nothing of the sort. It's a rules loophole and grey area they are attempting to exploit and manipulate to their advantage, ignoring other rules.
For instance, there's no rules supporting the fact that summoning a Secure Shelter allows you to get the full crafting 100% per hour usage, which Vincent Takada is using. It's a grey area, he's interpreting it to his advantage, and his DM went along with it. But the rules for crafting on the road don't care if you have Secure Shelter up...there's a 50% penalty for doing so. He can get a 1000 gp of work done in 3 hours in perfect security and safety...on the road, even with all his feats, it should take him 6 hours.
He's also essentially putting in a full day of work after a full day of work, and should be rolling for fatigue and exhaustion every night he does this...sustenance doesn't take care of those rolls.
But his DM is fine with it, they compromised. That doesn't make it standard rules...and he's not defending it as such.
==Aelryinth
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Right. I only defend that its a good comprimise for gms and players to make because if my gm hadn't have gone along with it i'd just teleport to my private lab that has no doors in some remote mountain range and get my 3 hours of crafting done there.
I still wouldnt be trying to craft for 8 hours there because I agree with my gm that when your group is on the road, leaving them to go get xp for 8 hours while you craft is a bad idea.
Its not a loophole or RAI to teleport home and craft for 8 hours at accelerated rates each day. By RAW it's not an 'exploit'... By teleporting home I'm no longer 'adventuring or on the road' and am free to crank out a full 8 hours at an accelerated rate and get 2666gp of crafting per day.
My gm hopes like hell that I don't take advantage of that, so I agreed I'd get in my 1000gp at full accelerated craft rate for (in 3 hours) uninterrupted on the road in my hut and he agreed not to lynch the party 7 nights a week during the watch, because he knows if he started doing that i'd go back to teleporting the party home, craft 2600gp in 8 hours, get 2 cozy hours of sleep with my ring, and teleport the party back on the road in the morning.
The rules are totally on my side, but for convenience I made a deal with my gm where we dont play at the ends of the spectrum where I do 2600 or he tries somehow getting some uberpowerful npc going out of his way to 'find my secret lab' and unilaterally screw with my crafting 7 days out of 7.
We met in the middle even though neither of us had to. RAW fully supports 2666gp of progress per day in 8 hours, and there are more than enough ways to keep a gm from bothering you while you do it. RAW fully supports the GM being as much of a petty annoying bastridge about it as he possibly can.
My gm and I just promised not to be bastridges to each other because thats what friends do.
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Based on available evidence I'd assess he doesn't like it at all, but won't simply say that. I'm actually fine with that as a house rule, but tell your players up front instead of inventing reasons they can't.@Aelryinth
Is your problem with crafting 8 hours while adventuring or crafting at all while adventuring?
You can infer lots of best case scenarios where it kinda might work, but that requires inference of best case scenarion, doesn't it?
Why can't it be that allowing it is a house rule, since is doesn't actually say it is allowed. How about that?
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
The italic section and the bold section are two separate options for crafting. You can either work little bits throughout the day, spending a total of 4 hours time and getting 2 hours of work.
ORYou can dedicate time in 4 hour blocks while in a controlled environment with minimal distractions such as a lab or shrine.
I believe this is what Aelryinth is saying. The examples provided (lab or shrine) do not include rope trick and the like. Therefore, you must go to a lab or shrine in order to devote 4 hour full-time blocks to crafting.
Aelryinth, in your opinion, what spell effects could be considered a controlled environment with minimal distractions like a lab or shrine?
A few specific ones I'm curious on your opinion on. Web Shelter, Hide Campsite, Secure Shelter, Mage Mansion.
He's also essentially putting in a full day of work after a full day of work, and should be rolling for fatigue and exhaustion every night he does this...sustenance doesn't take care of those rolls.
I'm sorry, where are the rules that say you are fatigued for traveling 8 hours? Or for crafting for 8 hours? Or for doing both in the same day?
Could you not travel for 8 hours to a city, then craft for 8 hours in the local shrine/laboratory and get full production and full crafting done?
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@Aelyrinth
Last time I checked, you're a party, and you cooperate with each other. That requires you to be a team, and a team generally works together. That means if someone was wanting to craft on the road, then the whole *@&*# team would have the rings. Your argument is basically just that you don't like crafting on the go, and you cherry pick your arguments.
Or your argument is "I want to do this, and I think everyone should ignore anything that might make it not possible to make it possible"
And that is fine. But you can't argue for all of the things that would have to happen for this to logistically work, automatically happen, while meanwhile everything that might interfere...don't happen. You are, after all, arguing for a 16 hour work day, everyday. (8 hours of travel, 8 hours of crafting)
Ring of Sustenance
"This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself."
Means you get a good nights sleep in 2 rather than 8 hours. Working for 16 hours a day is still...you know...working 16 hours a day.
Would it be unreasonable to allow this? No. Would it be unreasonable to not allow this? No.
If continuing to walk even a short additional distance after 8 hours will make you fatigued, it isn't unreasonable to think doing another 8 hours of labor crafting would be similarly exausting.
This is what bugs me about these debates. People infer things into the rules and scream RAW if the inference helps them, but simlar counter inferences are shouted down as DM Fiat.
If you want to argue for logical conclusions, you have to argue for all sides. It wouldn't wrong to allow or disallow this. There is a case to be made either way.
Ya know.....
If you want to ban the crafting ideas on the road, you would have the right to do so.
But as a character, it might not be bad to spend a week or two working on his stuff finishing it up while a villager is complaining about timmie falling down the well....
Again Aelryinth, Here is the difference between what you're saying and what everyone else is saying.
The reason it (full 8 hrs crafting while traveling) allegedly can be done is because the rules don't expressly forbid it though what is listed in the rules is perfectly supportive of the actions required.
The reason it allegedly can't be done is because the DM (or you in this case) are inventing reasons that it can't be done. (AKA: space in the rope trick, non-existant exhaustion rules, etc)
Edit: and this thread is expressly about rules manipulation. Meaning if it's not expressly forbidden it's fair game.
Well, the fact that crafting is in the book means its allowed. You don't need a houserule to say its ok. You need a houserule to say that it isnt.
The fact that nowhere does it explicitly state that fast crafting takes your daily limit from 8 hours down to 4 means thats allowed and it would take a houserule to say it isnt. (see the post below for an outline of the only place I have found that even suggests that... As long as you take all the necessary precautions to ensure you can get it done uninterrupted, which for some gms is going to be a hell of a lot of work.8 full hours of fast crafting per day is totally legit and it does take a houserule or poor planning or a petty gm that ambushes you no matter how hard you plan your crafting environment to get rid of the possibility.
Theres nothing a gm can do to stop me from trying to craft to the nines each night, and theres nothing a player can do to stop a petty gm from ambushing you even if your crafting environment is on another plane of existance, with all the astral etherial plane travelling supernatural entities an agressive gm has at his disposal to lynch you with...
The gm always has at his disposal the means by which to ruin your crafting day, so the best way to ensure he's not a petty party pooper is to reach an agreement on just how much crafting he'd be ok with you getting away with each night without giving you a hard time. Theres a spectrum. It shouldn't be 2600 every night but thers also not a single reason it should be 0.
Treat each other with a little dignity.
He's also essentially putting in a full day of work after a full day of work, and should be rolling for fatigue and exhaustion every night he does this...sustenance doesn't take care of those rolls.I'm sorry, where are the rules that say you are fatigued for traveling 8 hours? Or for crafting for 8 hours? Or for doing both in the same day?
Could you not travel for 8 hours to a city, then craft for 8 hours in the local shrine/laboratory and get full production and full crafting done?
I believe the part of the PRD that gms are citing that says if you're on the road your daily cap changes to 4 hours instead of 8 is this...
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation.
Taken out of context if we put a period at the end of this sentence it would totally mean your crafting limit had changed due to being on the road... There isnt a period there though..The text goes on to explain its only worth 2 hours of work because its broken up throughout the day. This could be interpreted to establish the argument that after adventuring for a day, you'd be too tired to get in a full 8 hours, which is why I told my gm I only wanted to do 3 hours, which is less than the 8 and the 4... But the remaining text also could be interpreted to mean i can still get my full 1000gp per day crafting rate in those 3 hours as long as my crafting environment is stable, secure, large enough and uninterrupted, which is hard to do if your gm is a pain in the butt and impossible with others.
It just so happens that i prefer to do it at the full crafting rate from being uninterrupted, and will either secure shelter or teleport or do whatever is necessary to ensure I dont get bothered and with arcane builder and +5dc fast crafting I can get 1000gp of progress in during that uninterrupted 3 hours.
what makes it work at our table is I'm not violating possibly RAI entirely legit interpretation that travelling brings your cap down to 4 hours and i'm busting my ass not to be interrupted by every means at my disposal and those means will escalate to whatever level they need to in order to ensure that those 3 hours are at a full uninterrupted rate, which thankfully my gm has agreed he wont be as much of a petty punk about seeing as how i'm not trying to blow 8 hours of every single day on accelerated crafting and he doesnt want me to get into the habit of teleporting the party to our secure hideaway or hotel in town each night. He's as annoyed by the 'I will not be interrupted/I will interrupt you no matter what' showdown as I am.
He's also essentially putting in a full day of work after a full day of work, and should be rolling for fatigue and exhaustion every night he does this...sustenance doesn't take care of those rolls.I'm sorry, where are the rules that say you are fatigued for traveling 8 hours? Or for crafting for 8 hours? Or for doing both in the same day?
Could you not travel for 8 hours to a city, then craft for 8 hours in the local shrine/laboratory and get full production and full crafting done?
I believe the part of the PRD that gms are citing that says if you're on the road your daily cap changes to 4 hours instead of 8 is this...
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation.
Taken out of context if we put a period at the end of this sentence it would totally mean your crafting limit had changed due to being on the road... There isnt a period there though..The text goes on to explain is only worth 2 hours of work because its broken up throughout the day. This could be interpreted to establishe the argument that after adventuring for a day, you'd be too tired to get in a full 8 hours, which is why I told my gm I only wanted to do 3 hours, which is less than the 8 and the 4... But the remaining text also could be interpreted to mean i can still get my full crafting rate in those 4 hours as long as my crafting environment is stable, secure, large enough and uninterrupted, which is hard to do if your gm is a pain in the butt for some gms and impossible with others.
It just so happens that i prefer to do it at the full crafting rate from being uninterrupted, and will either secure shelter or teleport or do whatever is necessary to ensure I dont get bothered...
You have a point. By RAW of the above rule you cannot work for more than 4 hrs (for 2 effective hours) while adventuring no matter what.
Of course then "out adventuring" could be interpreted very strictly or very loosely.
A strict interpretation would be counting going to the market as "adventuring." A loose one would be adventuring is only days where you actually fight something.
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Right. Even when interrupted you could still pull off 2 hours of crafting per night no matter what. If you're uninterrupted and in an ideal crafting environment it might still be possible to get in those 4 hours at a full non travelling rate, depending on how stodgy your gm is about interrupting you.
My gm and I found a way for him to be less stodgy because I established with him that i'd never be trying to do more than 1000gp of progress per day, and that could be done as long as we agreed that a secure shelter was safe stable, and uninterrupted enough to get away with 3 hours of crafting at the full uninterrupted rate. If secure shelter wasnt good enough to make that happen I was going to start teleporting the party home instead each night, so the gm agreed 'no lets not start that crap' and thus we've found a happy medium.
Right. Even when interrupted you could still pull off 2 hours of crafting per night no matter what. If you're uninterrupted and in an ideal crafting environment it might still be possible to get in those 4 hours at a full non travelling rate, depending on how stodgy your gm is about interrupting you.
My gm and I found a way for him to be less stodgy because I established with him that i'd never be trying to do more than 1000gp of progress per day, and that could be done as long as we agreed that a secure shelter was safe stable, and uninterrupted enough to get away with 3 hours of crafting at the full uninterrupted rate. If secure shelter wasnt good enough to make that happen I was going to start teleporting the party home instead each night, so the gm agreed 'no lets not start that crap' and thus we've found a happy medium.
Cooperative gameplay? What a novel idea. ;-)
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Again Aelryinth, Here is the difference between what you're saying and what everyone else is saying.
The reason it (full 8 hrs crafting while traveling) allegedly can be done is because the rules don't expressly forbid it though what is listed in the rules is perfectly supportive of the actions required.
The reason it allegedly can't be done is because the DM (or you in this case) are inventing reasons that it can't be done. (AKA: space in the rope trick, non-existant exhaustion rules, etc)
Edit: and this thread is expressly about rules manipulation. Meaning if it's not expressly forbidden it's fair game.
The rules don't expressly forbid dead people taking actions.
Something not being expressly forbidden is not the same as something being permitted by RAW.
I need a macro for this.
I believe the part of the PRD that gms are citing that says if you're on the road your daily cap changes to 4 hours instead of 8 is this...
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation.
Taken out of context if we put a period at the end of this sentence it would totally mean your crafting limit had changed due to being on the road... There isnt a period there though..The text goes on to explain its only worth 2 hours of work because its broken up throughout the day. This could be interpreted to establish the argument that after adventuring for a day, you'd be too tired to get in a full 8 hours, which is why I told my gm I only wanted to do 3 hours, which is less than the 8 and the 4... But the remaining text also could be interpreted to mean i can still get my full 1000gp per day crafting rate in those 3 hours as long as my crafting environment is stable, secure, large enough and uninterrupted, which is hard to do if your gm is a pain in the butt and impossible with others.
It just so happens that i prefer to do it at the full crafting rate from being uninterrupted, and will either secure shelter or teleport or do whatever is necessary to ensure I dont get bothered...
You are ignoring the rest of the paragraph though.
"If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)"1)If out adventuring only get 4 hours in between meals/watches/etc at half-rate.
2)If dedicating time in 4 hour blocks you get full production, unless you are in a distracting or dangerous environment in which case it has halved.
With a ring of sustenance, instead of sleeping for 8 hours, you sleep for 2. This leaves you 6 hours leftover. You can dedicate 4 of those 6 hours to dedicated crafting. The question now, is are you in a "distracting or dangerous environment" or are you in a "controlled environment". That is why I asked specifically which spells people think constitute a "controlled environment" over a "distracting or dangerous environment".
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The rules don't expressly forbid dead people taking actions.
Something not being expressly forbidden is not the same as something being permitted by RAW.
I need a macro for this.
To be fair, most dead people also fall under dying/unconscious/helpless, where you are unable to take actions.
You are ignoring the rest of the paragraph though.
"If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or...
Actually I'm not ignoring it. I'm citing it. The paragraph says 4 hours due to travelling, and worth only 2 because its broken up from being in one continuous period during lunches. But could the 'only counted as two' be bypassed if I could establish that it wasnt broken up into little bits here and there throughout the day but instead was done all in one uninterrupted stretch during the night in my secure shelter and thus get the full rate for the 3 hours I invested? Sure it could. How do I convince my gm to let me do it instead of being a petty party pooper about it?
My agreement with my gm is that i'd always be doing it in 3 continuous uninterrupted hours so i could get the non 'done in bits and pieces throughout the day' rate, while still being limited to 4 hours total per day due to the fact that i'm tired from all this travelling. My gm agreed that since I will never have any days at all where I do 8 hours of accelerated crafting (the 2600 per day of progess which is the part that is totally supported by RAW but that he hates like the plague) and he will let my secure shelter be safe enough to get in 3 hours per night even on the road at the full rate without hassling me since I could just as easily teleport the party home each night which he would also hate like the plague.
The difference between me gettting 1000gp per day in 3 hours and getting 600 per day (at half rate due to travelling) in 4 hours is that I told my gm I will never interrupt his campaign by choosing to keep the whole party in town so that I can get in even a single full day of uninterrupted accelerated 2600 per day full crafting. He will not have to put up with the party 'taking a week off' during his campaign so that I can spend 17575 and a solid week cranking out a magic item that would normally cost us 37000gp, which by RAW I could totally do.
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To be fair, most dead people also fall under dying/unconscious/helpless, where you are unable to take actions.The rules don't expressly forbid dead people taking actions.
Something not being expressly forbidden is not the same as something being permitted by RAW.
I need a macro for this.
By strict RAW, it isn't forbidden. So always have your friend coup de grace you so that you can once again move.
OR you people can stop arguing that what is not forbidden must therefore be allowed, RAW.
Because it is a ridiculous argument.
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None of which gets around the fatigue rules, of course, or the fact a Rope Trick hides people, not crafting chambers, nor the security issues of being on the road. All I see is a determined effort to circumvent the rules that are already in place that allow crafting at half value while on the road.
==Aelryinth
Creating a crafting focused simulacrum circumvents all those issues without playing games with RAW.
To be fair, most dead people also fall under dying/unconscious/helpless, where you are unable to take actions.The rules don't expressly forbid dead people taking actions.
Something not being expressly forbidden is not the same as something being permitted by RAW.
I need a macro for this.
By strict RAW, it isn't forbidden. So always have your friend coup de grace you so that you can once again move.
OR you people can stop arguing that what is not forbidden must therefore be allowed, RAW.
Because it is a ridiculous argument.
Dying: A dying creature is unconscious and near death. Creatures that have negative hit points and have not stabilized are dying.
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic.
So, if you have Con 10, and take damage to the point of having less than -10 HP remaining, you are a few conditions. Dying, because you have negative hit points and have not stabilized. Unconscious because dying gives it to you (since you would otherwise lose it from having negative points more than your con score). Helpless from unconscious. And dead.
The important one is helpless, which treats you as having Dex 0. Going way back to Getting Started we get:
"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
So now we get you are not allowed to move. You could maybe argue this means only move actions, and that you could still take a single standard action each turn. I think most people would agree it is not speaking of move actions, but any movement of your body, which would prevent any actions from happening.
(Sidenote: This only works for HP damage resulting in death. Any other effect giving the dead condition, yes, you by RAW still can take actions)
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To be fair, most dead people also fall under dying/unconscious/helpless, where you are unable to take actions.The rules don't expressly forbid dead people taking actions.
Something not being expressly forbidden is not the same as something being permitted by RAW.
I need a macro for this.
By strict RAW, it isn't forbidden. So always have your friend coup de grace you so that you can once again move.
OR you people can stop arguing that what is not forbidden must therefore be allowed, RAW.
Because it is a ridiculous argument.
There is a difference between "What is not explicitly forbidden must be allowed," and "What is stated in the rules in a vague fashion can be interpreted to allow something that may be viewed as questionable by some to occur."
This is the latter, not the former, and pretending that it's the former is itself a ridiculous argument. The 4-hour cap on crafting while adventuring is not a 'hard' cap. There are numerous completely legal methods to get more benefit from crafting while adventuring, and then there are some methods that work with vagueries in the rules.
In the end, those vague areas are up to the DM. If it's not your table, then honestly feel free to argue against it until you're blue in the face.
I would question why it's so important to you, or anyone else in the thread, if a DM decides to allow such rules maneuvers as described here regarding crafting, or if the DM decides to let a dead player to take actions? It's a game, and unless you're involved, why do you care?
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I post because I care about my fellow crafting enthusiasts as well as my craft hating gms ^_^
Thats right. I post because I care about you all.
I love you guys.
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Just a note, I don't craft as a player usually. In fact, I don't think I've ever played a crafter character. So all of Aelyrinths vitirol directed personally at me as a 'cheeter' or 'cheesy player' is pretty darn misplaced. :) I run two games, and play a monk/cleric in the other game I'm involved in.
On a second note, I've had very few games where, after 5th level, the entire party doesn't have a RoS, primarily due to the 2 hours sleep thing, and it helping with watches at night to avoid being ambushed.
On a third note, yes, I've had plenty of players put rings on their ACs, their animals, their horses, whatever. Also had plenty use the golem rules to make golem horses that don't get tired and have better AC/HP/etc at 5+ level.
On a fourth note, if you really have trouble with someone travelling 8 hours, and then working 8 hours, the ring lets you sleep 2 hours for a full nights sleep. So, sleeping between actions means you're putting in a normal 8 hour work day to travel, sleeping 2, then putting in another 8 hour work day crafting, then doing it again. As long as you don't have to worry about the spells being cast, you're golden, with 4 hours left over for socializing. If you're the non-mage crafter, then you're golden. If you're a cleric/druid crafter, you're good to, you just have to pray at a certain time. Wizards, need to study spell book for an hour. Sorcerers & Oracles, no biggie. Just lose any slots you cast in the last 8 hours. Use items for crafting for spell prereqs, or just give up a slot a day to craft.
Again, not game breaking, and not against the rules. The only thing I've seen thrown up is non-rules fluff that people have sworn are required (resting horses, with the assumption they're using horses, which is not a good assumption, especially since they are assuming the animals aren't resting as part of the 8 hours travelling, nothing in the rules say a horse must rest after 4 hours travelling, or that said rest is not included in the travel time, which is much more likely, given the 8 hours of travel lists how far you get in that 8 hours, with no caveat about needing to rest every N minutes).
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/amazi ng-tools-of-manufacture
This is the only item I've ever found that improves the progress of your crafting and is a non 3rd party item (advanced race guide). It has some pretty hefty restrictions:
-costs 12,000 gold to buy
-each set only applies to one craft skill (not spellcraft, things like craft weapon, armor, carpentry, jewelry, etc.)
-gnomish specific item, so some GM's may be reluctant to let you make or have them unless you are a gnome
-you need to have at least 6 ranks in the tool's craft skill to activate the useful powers of this item, no one rank dipping.
-requires craft wondrous item AND master craftsman to make the tools for yourself
On the bright side, you can make any item that uses your craft check that costs less than 2000 GP in one hour. And once a day on items that cost more than 2000 GP, you can make 2000 GP of progress on the item in one hour.
These Amazing Tools are expensive, so it's great for parties where money is no object and time is the only limiting factor. It's the only way I know to make additional progress in a day while adventuring without making a spreadsheet of all my hours, access to rings of sustenance, and adjacency to demiplanes.
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To be fair, most dead people also fall under dying/unconscious/helpless, where you are unable to take actions.The rules don't expressly forbid dead people taking actions.
Something not being expressly forbidden is not the same as something being permitted by RAW.
I need a macro for this.
By strict RAW, it isn't forbidden. So always have your friend coup de grace you so that you can once again move.
OR you people can stop arguing that what is not forbidden must therefore be allowed, RAW.
Because it is a ridiculous argument.
Dead: The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic.
But it doesn't say dead can't move. And dead isn't helpless.
And that is why the argument of omission being permission is ridiculous.
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To be fair, most dead people also fall under dying/unconscious/helpless, where you are unable to take actions.The rules don't expressly forbid dead people taking actions.
Something not being expressly forbidden is not the same as something being permitted by RAW.
I need a macro for this.
By strict RAW, it isn't forbidden. So always have your friend coup de grace you so that you can once again move.
OR you people can stop arguing that what is not forbidden must therefore be allowed, RAW.
Because it is a ridiculous argument.
There is a difference between "What is not explicitly forbidden must be allowed," and "What is stated in the rules in a vague fashion can be interpreted to allow something that may be viewed as questionable by some to occur."
This is the latter, not the former, and pretending that it's the former is itself a ridiculous argument. The 4-hour cap on crafting while adventuring is not a 'hard' cap. There are numerous completely legal methods to get more benefit from crafting while adventuring, and then there are some methods that work with vagueries in the rules.
In the end, those vague areas are up to the DM. If it's not your table, then honestly feel free to argue against it until you're blue in the face.
I would question why it's so important to you, or anyone else in the thread, if a DM decides to allow such rules maneuvers as described here regarding crafting, or if the DM decides to let a dead player to take actions? It's a game, and unless you're involved, why do you care?
I said above I don't care if a GM allows it or doesn't allow it. My issue is people arguing it is RAW that they should allow it and a houserule if they don't.
And arguing that something is RAW because it isn't specifically forbidden is ridiculous.
My personal opinion is if the devs took the time to write out detailed time restrictions to crafting while adventuring, that probably supercedes "It isn't specifically forbidden so..."
YMMV.
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But it doesn't say dead can't move. And dead isn't helpless.
And that is why the argument of omission being permission is ridiculous.
Dead doesn't remove the dying condition. Dying gives you the unconscious condition. Unconscious gives you the helpless condition. And helpless says you are treated as 0 dex which means you can't move.
As far as "adventuring" goes, what is adventuring defined as?
The rules provide for 2 scenarios, crafting while adventuring, and getting things crafted by spending time during meals, watches and the like. And for time dedicated to crafting which must be done in 4 hour blocks. If that time is in a controlled environment, you get 4 hours of progress. If it is in a dangerous or distracting environment you get 2 hours of progress.
So, why can't you travel for 8 hours of the day.
Craft as you adventure (quickly at +5dc) 4 hours of the day, 2 hours (500gp) of progress.
Devote 4 hours to crafting (quickly at +5dc) getting either 2 or 4 (depending on dangerousness) hours of progress, netting another 500 or 1000 gold of progress?
Total time spent 16 hours, you have a ring of sustenance so that makes 18 hours, with the remaining 6 for rest/socialize/whatever.
There are rules for crafting for adventuring. There are rules for devoting time to crafting. They are not mutually exclusive.
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But it doesn't say dead can't move. And dead isn't helpless.
And that is why the argument of omission being permission is ridiculous.
Dead doesn't remove the dying condition. Dying gives you the unconscious condition. Unconscious gives you the helpless condition. And helpless says you are treated as 0 dex which means you can't move.
As far as "adventuring" goes, what is adventuring defined as?
The rules provide for 2 scenarios, crafting while adventuring, and getting things crafted by spending time during meals, watches and the like. And for time dedicated to crafting which must be done in 4 hour blocks. If that time is in a controlled environment, you get 4 hours of progress. If it is in a dangerous or distracting environment you get 2 hours of progress.
So, why can't you travel for 8 hours of the day.
Craft as you adventure (quickly at +5dc) 4 hours of the day, 2 hours (500gp) of progress.
Devote 4 hours to crafting (quickly at +5dc) getting either 2 or 4 (depending on dangerousness) hours of progress, netting another 500 or 1000 gold of progress?Total time spent 16 hours, you have a ring of sustenance so that makes 18 hours, with the remaining 6 for rest/socialize/whatever.
There are rules for crafting for adventuring. There are rules for devoting time to crafting. They are not mutually exclusive.
You can bypass the dying condition by simply going directly to dead. And once you are dead, nothing in the dead conditions says dying is a pre-requisite or continues. If that were the case, undead would maintain the dying condition and be unable to move. And clearly that is not the case. :)
So again, an argument for omission being permission makes no sense.
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The trouble with the whole 'taking actions while dead argument' is that its a fallacy of scope and several other fallacies. Apples to oranges... Heck its practically an entire cascading fallacy array. Like a fallacy feat with prerequisites in other fallacy feats.
It can be phrased in a way that it sounds like a logical rational argument, but truth is there is no parity between 'i'm having trouble taking actions because i'm dead' and 'I should be allowed to craft because the book doesnt say I cant'.
Its bullsh[redacted]t logic masquerading as real logic. And the conclusions you can reach with this crap can be both amazingly arbitrary and amazingly wrong.
The bottom line is most gms disallow crafting because they just 'no likey' and the whole table should be making that decision, not just one stick in the mud gm.
If your whole table thinks crafting should be handled with the same warped logic as that which one uses to deduce if dead men can't take actions there's nothing wrong with it... It simply implies to me that your table might consider letting dead people take actions because you clearly let odd logical leaps dictate the rules at your table. It doesnt just show me how you do things. It shows me how you think things should be done, and more importantly it shows how you think. If you seriously use this logic to support no crafting then your rules are founded on faulty logic at best and whim at worst. If you are using this logic even though you know its crap, well, thats even worse still because you're trying to support your argument by befuddling your opponents which is pretty dirty pool.
Either way what it really means is your table isnt the kind of table I could put up with for very long. But we already knew that. For me, life's too short to game at a table where such lengths are taken to keep someone from using a set of feats and spells and traits that all somehow made it into print. Its a game that the publishers intended to be played in a limitless number of ways. Player or GM, which limits you choose to put up with is totally up to you and hopefully those choices leave you with enough people to game with and still have a good time at the end of the day.
It's interesting that there don't seem to be any rules restricting crafting EXCEPT those that concern the rate at which you make magic items.
Likewise, there are no rules restricting how long each day it takes to Craft. Amazingly, according to the rules, if you just say you work on something for a week and don't actually alot any real time to it, you get the same results as if you say you work 16 hours!
I think we can all agree that working 1 hour and 16 hours and getting the same result is completely off base.
The forced march rules basically indicate what a working day is...8 hours, with the rest of the daylight time for travel taken up eating, setting up camp, and the like.
Every hour after the eight hours you're engaged in active travel (and Crafting is generally at least as exhaustive as walking, from a concentration/focus aspect if nothing else) you're going to be making increasingly heavy saves for Fortitude against Fatigue. Miss one, and the next one makes you exhausted.
One night of rest gets rid of fatigue, but it's going to take another night to get rid of exhaustion. And if you travel while fatigued, you're going to be immediately making those Fort rolls again.
Secondly, a Ring of Sustenance does not allow you to sleep twice in one day and recover twice as fast as normal people. It's not in the spell description, and is no more possible then sleeping 8 hours twice in one day...and getting all your spells back twice, yay! (which was an old 3E trick with the ring...sleep, get buff spells, cast all buff spells, sleep again, get load out for the adventuring day).
Thirdly, as noted before, Sustenance does NOT MAKE YOU IMMUNE TO FATIGUE. Travelling/adventuring all day and crafting all night is going to tire out anybody. If your DM is willing to let you work 16 hours a day and not get tired, you've an extremely generous DM. In the real world, that's called overtime, and is never as productive as real time, because people get tired.
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Of the solutions posted, I'd only give a Magnificent Mansion the 'peace of mind' nod, because it's fundamentally similar to a teleport evacuation...right down to enemies being able to reasonably predict where you're going to reappear at outside that invisible magical door floating there.
If you're sly enough to teleport home every night, people are not dumb enough to have not done the same thing before, and interested parties are not stupid enough to never have thought up ways to take real advantage of people who try to pull this. I think I'd only have to ambush the party once or twice when they pop into their little retreat OR teleport back to their point of furthest travel to drive the point home that teleportation isn't going to keep them safe, and indeed could get them all killed.
3.5 actually had a great spell that delayed teleport spells in the area of effect, letting you know where someone was going to appear and giving you 1-3 rounds to get ready before they popped in. Used in an ambush situation like above, it could be lethal...and that's exactly how it should be used. It was basically the anti- scry and die scenario. If your PC's think this is the 'perfect tactic', it is your job as the DM to point out that they are not being original, their enemies don't have to be stupid, and let them have it properly.
And MDT, I've got no 'vitriol' against you. You quoted me and what I said, made assertions that were highly accusatory, 'high handed DM' and all, and I pointed out that 'whiningly entitled PC' was an equally apt assertion, and that rules manipulation extended both ways. You got all huffy and attack-defensive because the rules really aren't all on your side, that's all.
===Aelryinth