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Hello!
I'm attempting to go down the rabbit hole that is The Grapple Rules. Tetori seems interesting, but it throws in Grab and the like, which makes things complicated.
I did some research beforehand, so I just wanted to confirm if the following are true:
http://www.dorkistan.com/grapple-grab-constrict-pathfinder-grapple-rules-ex plained/
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mgv4?New-grapple-flowcharts#43
And then confirm that I'm getting the steps right:
Alright, so, let's say it's a level 13 Tetori, since I think that's the most murky.
I have Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler, Pinning Knockout, and Grab that can be activated on creatures my size or lower for 1 ki, or one size larger for 2 ki. Let's say I also have Power Attack, and an Amulet of the Mighty Fist +1 Flaming, with a 16 STR.
So, If I wanted to grapple someone, I'd...
1.) I spend 1 ki point before I start any attacks, to make ALL of my attacks gain the ability to Grab creatures my size or smaller. Nevertheless, I decide to do a move and then an Attack Action with Unarmed Strike and Power Attack. Power Attack lowers my AB and CMB by -3. But, I add +4 to my CMB from Improved+Greater Grapple, and by virtue of simply possessing the "Grab" ability, I gain another +4 to my CMB.
2.) Round Passes, the creature tries to escape my sexy oiled wrestler body, and fails.
3.) New round starts. I decide I still want Power Attack activated, giving me -3 to my AB/CMB. I take a move action to maintain my grapple via Greater Grapple, and succeed. I don't need to spend anymore Ki points, as for the rest of the grapple, I'm treated as having Grab. Therefore, after my success, I deal automatic damage from Grab, which is equal to 2d6(Unarmed Base)+3(STR)+6(Power Attack)+1d6+1(Flaming +1)=3d6+10. After that, as part of my maintain, I decide to use the "Damage" action, and decide to do nonlethal damage. I deal the aforementioned damage again, and after getting my damage result, per Pinning Knockout, my non-lethal damage result is doubled.
4.) I use my second move action to make another Grapple Check as per Greater Grapple, and succeed. I get bonus damage from Grab again, and I decide to do the "Damage" action again with nonlethal damage once more. Effectively I've done the same as I did with the previous move action.
5.) I use my swift action to make yet another Grapple Check, as per Rapid Grapple, and repeat the process over again.
6.) In the second round, with the three grapple checks, I have now dealt 6d6+30 Bludge + 3d6 Fire Lethal Damage, and 12d6+60 Bludge + 6d6 Fire Non-Lethal Damage.
Please tell me what I did wrong. I phrased things in no uncertain terms so as to make it easier to pick on. Once there's enough input, I'll edit as necessary and post a new step-by-step for review incorporating corrections.
Thanks!
After you have the opponent grappled, grab is no longer in the equation.
When you maintain a grapple you have a number of things to choose to do. If you simply want to maintain (not pin) you can Damage, Move, or attempt to Tie Up.
You only get your "automatic" damage if you choose to damage. When you choose to damage (if you use unarmed strike) you don't actually hit them, you just do that damage. (until lvl 15 when you get constrict that is)
You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal."
You also cannot get double damage from Pinning Knockout unless you have them PINNED.
Your round after you achieved the grapple SHOULD go like this.
Use standard to maintain, if successful you PIN the target. Move action to damage(nonlethal), PK gives double damage. Swift action to maintain yet again to damage, PK gives double damage.
You would net a total of 2d6+10 nonlethal damage+1d6 fire energy damage each time you maintained, you would double the result of the nonlethal damage but not the fire.
EDIT: Also, don't forget about the nice +5 you get to maintain your grapple after the target fails to break the grapple on his turn.
@ Drakkiel Ah, excellent! Thank you very much. That makes more sense. Definitely forgot the PIN part, figures when I'm writing this stuff late! :D Also makes sense that one cannot make the fire non-lethal.
Though... I was under the impression that Grab gave extra damage, due to the flow chart, Blog and the following from Grab (emphasis bolded):
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
Does this not mean that Grab deals bonus damage?
Also, separate question: If I only made an attack action for the first attempt to initiate grapple, could I then use my move action to immediately maintain and pin?
Your "#2" assumption is also wrong.
That is what should theoretically happen, 'cuz who likes being grappled? You wanna escape right?
But in reality, whatever you're grappling is going to take advantage of the fact that it can still full-attack you while you cannot full-attack it.
Yay grappling. /golfclap
I believe that part of the description is for if the creature (you in this case) is using the "hold" option
Yes...but in that case you would be better off just standard grappling...using greater grapple to maintain and pin...and use your swift to maintain again to damage or just tie up
@Neo2151: Excellent point. I have considered this... And since the Tetori Monk unfortunately doesn't get Flurry of Blows, arguably the most desirable ability of Monks, I'm tempted to get in a level of fighter or something, and grab some heavy armor, forgoing bonus movement and WIS AC bonus. It's nice that the Tetori doesn't get any of the grappled penalties either. This would mitigate some of the full attacks wailing on me, with all the penalties they'd take.
I suppose I also get Stunning Pin as well. So that may be able to mitigate it some.
It's such a dumb problem too. Grappled/Pinned both say the target can't move. Well if you can't move, how are you getting full-attacks off?
I feel your pain, as a grappler is one of two character types I would really like to make work in PF.
@Drakkiel: Hmmmm, right. "Hold" is that thing where you only grapple them with your attacking limb from a Grab, right?
So then the Grab damage only applies to Hold then. Interesting. I appreciate the help! Thanks again!
@Neo2151: Yeah... but I'm in the Wounds and Vigor system in our game, so theoretically with this double non-lethal damage thing from Knockout Pin, I can do a lot of HP damage (Since non-lethal does vigor damage). Anyhoo, it's painful, hence I haven't built one until now, but I'd settle for an Official Paizo Grapple Flowchart, personally. I know no tabletop game company likes to admit a flowchart may be needed, but it'd be a great help.
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You can no longer attack when pinned. You may try to get out of the pin, take mental or verbal actions. That is all.
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
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I know, I don't think it can be said enough just how silly it is that these focused grapple builds can basically charge/grapple/pin tie up in one freaking round.
Unless it's just so large you can't, almost any focused grappler can handle cr appropriate and a few levels higher in this manner, and even if they fail one, they just keep trying.
I agree...I try not to overly optimize my characters so I have a challenge...I went grappling with my Druid...but he's far from optimized like a min maxed tetori
Thanks guys. Appreciate it.
@ Lantzkev/Drakkiel: Yeah, I had already mentioned how silly the whole pin thing was, and how easy it is to do to my GM. I'm sort of just evaluating all my options, to perhaps make things more interesting. You can't charge/grapple/pin/tie up in one round though, can you? Move is consumed by charge, attack initiates grapple, and then with rapid grappler you use the swift to pin them, so you'd need to tie up next round? Or does the character have some means of getting an extra move?
So while you grapple experts are here... Pin takes the whole body, so as your standard humanoid I can't grapple multiple characters/monsters without taking -20, right? The actions are there to maintain multiple grapples.
If u hit two adjacent enemies with say one hand each using the grab ability then yes you could have two grappled but a -20 is a huge penalty so don't expect to do it in a normal CR appropriate encounter
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@drakkiel It is only a -4 penalty.
"Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."
So you would grapple the first dumb dumb monster at full CMB and then if you managed to get a second grapple off, you would only take a -4 penalty on your subsequent concurrent grapples.
The -20 is only for creatures that do not want to incur the grappled condition on themselves.
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."
For class archetypes that ignore or reduce grappled condition penalties, it's not an issue if they have the condition--they can operate at near peak efficiency...even with a -4 CMB for only using one limb on both grapples.
For monsters with lots of limbs, grab and a high CMB, but no way to ameliorate grappled condition effects, they would want to take the -20 penalty to avoid getting the grappled condition.
Ah yes thank you Bruno...the -4 is what I meant but my mind was still on grab lol
Oh hey. Thanks guys! I really appreciate it. Grappling multiple people might be more interesting. One arm for each and locking the other one with my legs! ;)
I appreciate it guys, and Favorited this so I can refer to it for any future grapple shenanigans. Thanks again!
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Woo nice thread necromancy there, man. But to answer your question, no, grab does not deal bonus damage. You already got to inflict damage by hitting them prior to the grab being initiated. After that you fall into normal grappling rules. Constrict is a bit different, however. With that, you'll inflict damage to them no matter what you choose to do with your grapple. This does mean that you can elect to use one of your grapple checks to deal damage and have that be immediately followed by constrict damage. You could even use all three grapple checks in that round to cause damage, and all of them would would be followed by a tick of constrict damage; constrict has no text limiting it to one trigger per round.
As an example, say you decide to move them while they are pinned. Your constrict damage still goes off despite you using that particular grapple check to move. But grab? Grab is no longer even in the equation once you have them grappled.