Is Craft really that slow?

[Aelryinth]

You are correct in that it doesn't explicitly say you can raise the DC multiple times. Nor does it have the restriction that Fabricate does that you may only do it once. It just says you may voluntarily add +10 to the DC.

It's a grey area, and I'd personally let it slide because otherwise, what good is a +30 Craft Skill? There is no DC 40 armor.

==Aelryinth

[Jeraa]

3.0/3.5 did allow you to stack the +10 DC to craft faster, if you used the rules from the Epic Level Handbook. (Despite being in that book, there is nothing that actually requires to to be epic level to use epic level skill usages. Its just that the DCs are usually high enough you needed to be epic level to beat them.)

Quote:

It's a grey area, and I'd personally let it slide because otherwise, what good is a +30 Craft Skill? There is no DC 40 armor.

Just having a higher craft modifier means it takes less time to craft an item, as you make more progress per check.

Also, the DC to craft some magic items can be DC 40 or more, depending on if you meet the prerequisites or not, and are using accelerated crafting. Base DC 5 + 20 (caster level) + 5 (accelerated crafting) = DC 30, +5 for every missing prerequisite. (Granted, most crafters would probably use Spellcraft instead of an appropriate Craft or Profession skill.)

[JHFizban]

I think it is incorrect to say that Fabricate only allows a single Craft check. In my opinion, that is an overly-strict house rule interpretation out of concern for game economies. It's fine if you want to run it that way as the GM of your own game. I don't think it is necessary, because the GM controls the economy anyway, and can fairly rule that there isn't infinite demand for whatever good a player wants to make and sell. Or if there is infinite demand, then the local smiths shouldn't care, because then they can sell their own wares to that infinite pool of buyers, too, and nobody loses.

And even if you choose to disallow masterwork, what stops a player from making a ridiculously valuable piece of jewelry with a single check, anyway? Masterwork only applies to specific items, right? If the perceived problem is that a caster with the 5th-level Fabricate spell can crank out huge amounts of valuable products and "get rich quick"... if that's a problem for your game and you think it is breaking the economy, talk to the player and say hey, it's fine to use Fabricate now and then to make some cool stuff, but don't abuse it. Don't let these ideas of broken economies cloud the issue of what the spell can actually do and artificially limit it, and especially don't claim that this interpretation is the way the spell must work.

Instead, let's stick to what Fabricate actually says: that you must make an appropriate Craft check for items requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

So if I want to make an elaborate and beautiful necklace, what is ”an appropriate Craft check” for that? Craft: Jewelry, we'll say DC20. Ok, great!

If I want to make a set of chain mail armor, what is ”an appropriate Craft check” for that? DC16 Craft: Armor? Sounds right.

Now, what if I want to make Masterwork Chain Mail, what is ”an appropriate Craft check” for that? The answer: TWO Craft checks are appropriate for making that specific item.

And so, I believe it is incorrect to so completely latch on to the word ”an” in the spell text and then ignore the significance of the word ”appropriate” immediately following it. ”An appropriate Craft check” for a given item is sometimes more than one Craft check, and is ultimately determined by the GM... whether a single check or multiple checks are deemed appropriate for a given task.

Aside from all that, SKR pretty clearly demonstrated in the post linked to earlier in this thread that masterwork items are possible with Fabricate, so I'm not sure why it even has to be reasoned out any further, but there you have it.

Good gaming!

[EldonG]

JHFizban wrote:

I think it is incorrect to say that Fabricate only allows a single Craft check. In my opinion, that is an overly-strict house rule interpretation out of concern for game economies. It's fine if you want to run it that way as the GM of your own game. I don't think it is necessary, because the GM controls the economy anyway, and can fairly rule that there isn't infinite demand for whatever good a player wants to make and sell. Or if there is infinite demand, then the local smiths shouldn't care, because then they can sell their own wares to that infinite pool of buyers, too, and nobody loses.

And even if you choose to disallow masterwork, what stops a player from making a ridiculously valuable piece of jewelry with a single check, anyway? Masterwork only applies to specific items, right? If the perceived problem is that a caster with the 5th-level Fabricate spell can crank out huge amounts of valuable products and "get rich quick"... if that's a problem for your game and you think it is breaking the economy, talk to the player and say hey, it's fine to use Fabricate now and then to make some cool stuff, but don't abuse it. Don't let these ideas of broken economies cloud the issue of what the spell can actually do and artificially limit it, and especially don't claim that this interpretation is the way the spell must work.

Instead, let's stick to what Fabricate actually says: that you must make an appropriate Craft check for items requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

So if I want to make an elaborate and beautiful necklace, what is ”an appropriate Craft check” for that? Craft: Jewelry, we'll say DC20. Ok, great!

If I want to make a set of chain mail armor, what is ”an appropriate Craft check” for that? DC16 Craft: Armor? Sounds right.

Now, what if I want to make Masterwork Chain Mail, what is ”an appropriate Craft check” for that? The answer: TWO Craft checks are appropriate for making that specific item.

And so, I believe it is incorrect to so completely latch on to the word ”an” in...

...because 'reasonable' people have seen that it inhibits 'good gaming'.

Allow me to explain...

You gave the party a small mine...it produces adamantite...but not an amazing amount, and not quickly.

For some reason, the dwarf fighter with a lineage of armorers is thrilled...already, he's been utterly shown up by the wizard when he mined it in an afternoon...

But the dwarf is a craftsman. He's invested skill points and feats in it since day one, and he practices his craft regularly. With the adamantite, he's working on his masterpiece, a suit of armor that will ultimately take him through his entire career. He's been working on it for levels, while the others drink and party. It's taken YEARS. Finally, it's done. He unveils it proudly, an absolute masterpiece.

The wizard sneers drunkenly. He just hit 9th level. "So what?" he asks, and within seconds, the exact duplicate is standing next to the dwarf's labor of love.

[Tarantula]

EldonG wrote:

The wizard sneers drunkenly. He just hit 9th level. "So what?" he asks, and within seconds, the exact duplicate is standing next to the dwarf's labor of love.

To which the dwarf puts on the armor, and thanks the wizard for helping make him a spare in case anything happens to it. And they continue off adventuring together, eventually hitting level 20 and the wizard creates a demiplane full of adamantium armor for them to frolic in together.

[EldonG]

Tarantula wrote:

EldonG wrote:

The wizard sneers drunkenly. He just hit 9th level. "So what?" he asks, and within seconds, the exact duplicate is standing next to the dwarf's labor of love.

To which the dwarf puts on the armor, and thanks the wizard for helping make him a spare in case anything happens to it. And they continue off adventuring together, eventually hitting level 20 and the wizard creates a demiplane full of adamantium armor for them to frolic in together.

...which utterly discounts the dwarf, no matter how dedicated he is.

Players love it when you make them useless. They just eat it up when the character they've worked hard to build has crap shoved down their throats...especially if you sneer and laugh at their efforts when you do it.

[Avh]

I suppose the only rule on these messageboards have to be applied to your tables then.

I have never seen a player showing off to another player for his abilities.
So what if the wizard can do it ? He can also repair the adamantine armor in minutes (from 1st level if not completly destroyed, and from 5th level if he chooses the good spell otherwise), while it takes months for a great smith.

If your players use their abilities for the interest of the group instead of showing off, the group will not even notice the difference in power and abilities (well, they can notice, but probably won't care).

[EldonG]

Avh wrote:

I suppose the only rule on these messageboards have to be applied to your tables then.

I have never seen a player showing off to another player for his abilities.
So what if the wizard can do it ? He can also repair the adamantine armor in minutes (from 1st level if not completly destroyed, and from 5th level if he chooses the good spell otherwise), while it takes months for a great smith.

If your players use their abilities for the interest of the group instead of showing off, the group will not even notice the difference in power and abilities (well, they can notice, but probably won't care).

Ah, I see, for a dwarf to be a master smith...well, that's selfishly showing off? If it's at all a fantasy trope, it needs to be dumped, because wizards are doing it 'for the party', and all the dwarf is is a disposable meat shield.

'It's for the party.'

[JHFizban]

In the example about the dwarf fighter making his own armor but being quickly shown up by the wizard, there are a couple of problems there. First, you make a point of describing how the dwarf has invested skill points and feats into his craft and practiced it regularly. But in order to make the same high quality item, doesn't the wizard also need enough in Craft: Armor to pull off the same DC on the roll? So where did his years of practice go? Or are you just hand-waving it and assuming that the wizard allocates his skill points with no roleplaying basis for it and perhaps even hides it from everyone in order to be able to one day sneakily one-up the fighter later on? Does that really happen in your games?

No, if you're going to give the dwarf a rich background and RP flavor for his Craft skill, then it's only fair to assume that the wizard has the same rich background and RP flavor for his ranks in the same Craft skill. The wizard may have the advantage of a higher INT bonus contributing to his skill, and can pull off other tricks like Crafter's Fortune. But in a world where apparently there is easy access to adamantine, why doesn't the dwarf just get himself some Amazing Tools of Manufacture then? Or do you just nix those from your games too, because they disrupt the time-honored tradition of someone pouring their blood, sweat, and tears into a months-long crafting process, too?

And if you want to look at some more RP flavor, consider that the item created by Fabricate can be detected with a sufficiently high Knowledge: Arcana check, so if you've got someone who would prefer to buy a suit of armor that was crafted painstakingly over a long time of hard work, they have a way to make sure they are buying what they prefer, too.

It seems some have discarded the idea of examining how Fabricate is supposed to actually work, and instead it has changed to how some people like to have it work (aka, house rule) because they don't like that it has the potential to be used in a way that they don't like, whether it is because of some effect it has on the game's economy, or because this one time, Bob the Crafty Dwarf had his thunder stolen from him by Dave the Jerk. And if that happens all the time, then hey man, sorry you're apparently stuck with Dave in your gaming group. ;)

[Aelryinth]

No, the wizard doesn't need to put ANY points in craft armor.

he can put on a 4000 gp headband, insta-get the ranks, his high INt will get him to +15, and he can auto-make the checks by taking 10.

It really, really trivializes what Craft can do.

The craft (jewelry) is another great example of how this can be abused, because technically there's no such thing as masterwork jewelry, is there? Unless maybe it has to be mastercrafted to be a magic item.

It's also funny that a 2000 gp Amulet of Nat Armor is probably of lesser quality then a 2000 gp amulet, because the magical former's value is at least half from being magic.

But there's no rule for jewelry above a certain level requiring mastercraft now, is there? You do have to get the raw materials, which is funny...an incredible gold work of art doesn't have to be large to be a product of awesome skill. Think of somethign like the Faberge eggs...valued for the timeless skill that went into making them, moreso then irreplaceable gemstones of colossal value. Fabricate doesn't reflect artistry at all well.

Which would lead to house rules about mastercraft being required to add artitistic value to something beyond the cost of raw materials, I am certain. I mean, really, whats the cost of raw materials for a painting? How much can you command in the end? it's all labor...why should someone be able to Fabricate a timeless painting on demand?

IMC, Fabricate allows you to instantly duplicate the effects of one day of Crafting. That's it. Thus, you can make simple required things instantly, similar to Minor Creation/Major Creation. But for more complex things, it just speeds up the process.

Also, things made with Fabricate/Creation spells are all fundamentally identical, being based upon magical patterns that are clearly reflected in the items, and any journeyman or higher skilled person can identify them on sight, and will generally refuse to deal with someone using 'wizard crafting' on a social basis, and word soon gets around that some spellcaster is trying to take away the livelihood of common folk instead of sticking to making magical items and the like...

But that's all house rule stuff. What instead we've got is big grey areas.

==Aelryinth

[Ruggs]

One of the best reasons I've heard for the craft rules being as they are is that: "Pathfinder is an adventuring game, as was DnD before it."

Another reason is that there are numerous issues that Pathfinder inherited from the DnD economy. Ladders and poles, anyone?

Fixing the craft skill may well involve...addressing items on a larger scale, since if there was a useful, working mundane craft system, then PCs reasonably would expect to make money from it.

Right?

[Poldaran]

Aelryinth wrote:

No, the wizard doesn't need to put ANY points in craft armor.

he can put on a 4000 gp headband, insta-get the ranks, his high INt will get him to +15, and he can auto-make the checks by taking 10.

It really, really trivializes what Craft can do.

By the same token, anyone could put on such a headband and craft something that equals the works of the guy who put a ton of effort into learning it. It's not limited just to the fabricating wizard. Of course, the Int part is still valid, but that's more of an argument for linking crafts to something like Dex than against the wizard in particular.

[Aelryinth]

sure, but the master smith can put on a headband, too. Everybody is equal that way.

But the master smith with a trait, masterwork items, skilled apprentices, two feats to up his craft mod, and maybe a magic item or two simply CANNOT hope to craft anywhere near as fast as a wizard with this spell.

It's ridiculous.

==Aelryinth

[Forseti]

I can name a hundred more ridiculous things wizards can do with spells. I don't see any reason to make a big deal out of Fabricate. I'd consider myself a very lucky GM if Fabricate abuse would be the best thing my mid-level spellcasters could come up with.

[Doomed Hero]

How about we take this in the other direction?

Quarterstaves and slings have no cost. How many of them can I craft as a Free action every round?

[ProximaC]

None, obviously.

Since the DC to craft them is 10, and the time required is zero days (10 * 0 = 0), it's clearly no action, not a free action.

This is, of course, ridiculous, so I made a houserule. In my campaign, when making quarterstaves, you need an equivalent weight of wood to craft a staff.

So in my campaign, the number of quarterstaves you can make in one round depends on the weight of the trees within reach.

[Helic]

Whatever way you interpret it, Fabricate has IDENTICAL economy breaking power. Even if you can't make masterwork items, by far the vast majority of items in the world are NOT masterwork. And the cost of materials vs sale cost ratio remains the same. Even if you're selling RAW (1/2 market cost), you can surely sell many more 100gp chain mail suits than 825gp suits of masterwork full plate because people with 100gp to spend are a lot more common than people with 825gp to spend.

Either way, for every 1000gp you input, you make 500gp profit (1000gp raw materials make 3000gp worth of goods, which you sell for 1500gp). Eventually the laws of supply and demand will catch up with you, and you get to enjoy the consequences of your actions (angry guilds, unemployment, higher crime...which leads to angry nobles and hasty exits).

So there's no point in preventing Fabricate from making masterwork items, it changes literally nothing. Even if he can't make Masterwork with Fabricate, there's still Masterwork Transformation. Fabricate isn't even the problem, the Craft rules are the problem. Tying value of the item to the time it takes to craft it is bad game design; one extra column on the goods and services tables ("Time to Craft") would solve a host of strangeness.

[R_Chance]

Helic wrote:

Tying value of the item to the time it takes to craft it is bad game design; one extra column on the goods and services tables ("Time to Craft") would solve a host of strangeness.

Careful, that kind of rational thinking can get you in trouble. You're supposed to say "it's just a game" :) Of the various things they missed revisiting / fixing, crafting is, to me, the most obvious one they should have. Here's hoping Ultimate Campaign clears up a few issues. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Avh]

@Helic : Your post makes sense, especially this part :

Quote:

So there's no point in preventing Fabricate from making masterwork items, it changes literally nothing. Even if he can't make Masterwork with Fabricate, there's still Masterwork Transformation. Fabricate isn't even the problem, the Craft rules are the problem. Tying value of the item to the time it takes to craft it is bad game design; one extra column on the goods and services tables ("Time to Craft") would solve a host of strangeness.

[EldonG]

Helic wrote:

Whatever way you interpret it, Fabricate has IDENTICAL economy breaking power. Even if you can't make masterwork items, by far the vast majority of items in the world are NOT masterwork. And the cost of materials vs sale cost ratio remains the same. Even if you're selling RAW (1/2 market cost), you can surely sell many more 100gp chain mail suits than 825gp suits of masterwork full plate because people with 100gp to spend are a lot more common than people with 825gp to spend.

Either way, for every 1000gp you input, you make 500gp profit (1000gp raw materials make 3000gp worth of goods, which you sell for 1500gp). Eventually the laws of supply and demand will catch up with you, and you get to enjoy the consequences of your actions (angry guilds, unemployment, higher crime...which leads to angry nobles and hasty exits).

So there's no point in preventing Fabricate from making masterwork items, it changes literally nothing. Even if he can't make Masterwork with Fabricate, there's still Masterwork Transformation. Fabricate isn't even the problem, the Craft rules are the problem. Tying value of the item to the time it takes to craft it is bad game design; one extra column on the goods and services tables ("Time to Craft") would solve a host of strangeness.

You seem to have missed the entire point. There is almost no motivation for a wizard to create non-masterwork items, simply to sell.

By the time the wizard hits 9th, creating non-masterwork items doesn't make him filthy rich...9th level wealth by level makes him rich already. It's the special materials that makes for astounding wealth...those materials that assume masterwork. As long as that's an allowed thing, the wizard no longer has significant motivation for adventure...he can simply buy anything he wants.

There are problems with the craft rules, true...but this isn't about that. I have no problem with adamantite plate taking years to craft...I have a problem with it being created within moments...as you wait.

[Avh]

Quote:

There is almost no motivation for a wizard to create non-masterwork items, simply to sell.

Look at the sculptures : a wizard can make a dozen with each Fabricate, and sell them for many dozens of thousands of gold by each casting...

[EldonG]

Avh wrote:

Quote:

There is almost no motivation for a wizard to create non-masterwork items, simply to sell.

Look at the sculptures : a wizard can make a dozen with each Fabricate, and sell them for many dozens of thousands of gold by each casting...

Gold has the value of gold. Art has value based on the artistic expression of the piece. If the wizard makes a piece that's of particular value due to the expression of art, it's worth more than the gold itself...if not, *shrug*...it's not. Limited editions are always more valuable...the more limited, the more valuable. One of a kind beats two.

[Aelryinth]

A Fabricate spell also creates only one item, so you couldn't create multiple sculptures.

But the idea is to make valuable items out of standard goods. I admit I'm kind of wondering how full plate has 300 gp more of raw materials then plate mail, but still...

So, yes, Fabricate is broken on its face, but at least you can't make masterwork with it.

===Aelryinth

[Nosferatu]

Its time to build a hyper realistic economy into my game because of a Craft debate on the message boards.

*adds a maximum gold cap based on economic power of each and every town/thorp/city/polis from some 3.e supplement out there*

I'm done.

No seriously, are we really making the point that a mundane smith would be put out of business, because every wizard has nothing better to do than use fabricate, all day, and just make money? And that's a problem?

I think someone explored that concept, a while back. I think it was called Eberron.

A few points I'd like to make out.

1. Magic breaks mundane rules 100% of the time. That's why it's called magic. A wizard can instantly create flames that deal damage comparable to taking a dip in an active volcano, and beyond. How long until your mundane fire does the same thing?

2. Fabricate explicitly states: "The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used" and clearly states that "Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell". A form exists under which a header "magical items" includes the likes of certain, actually non-magical items. This, I think, should have a specific question asked, instead of to say that verbatim, Fabricate denies the creation of such things. Regardless, see point 4.

3. When fabricate says "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship." I instantly understand that as follows:

'You must make' (obligation)
'an appropriate' (matching)
'Craft check' (-)
to fabricate' (objective)
'requiring a high degree of craftmanship' (conditional quality)

Thus, if any craft check should be made, however many there are, at whatever period of the act of crafting, only those which satisfy the conditional quality (such as masterwork does), must be made.

Nowhere in Fabricate does the exception apply to regular masterwork items, only the question of special materials, of which products are listed as 'magical'. This isn't explicit, but I agree that this statement was appended specifically for the purpose of fabricating masterwork articles, be that even MW armours.

4. For what it's worth, I have this damning piece to add, when it comes to using special materials, such as Adamantine and Mithral, and it's about Darkwood:

Darkwood Buckler:

DARKWOOD BUCKLER
Aura no aura (nonmagical); CL —
Slot shield; Price 203 gp; Weight 2.5 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
This nonmagical light wooden shield is made out of darkwood. It has no enhancement bonus, but its construction material makes it lighter than a normal wooden shield. It has no armor check penalty.

Darkwood:

Darkwood: This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow or spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.

Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5.

I'm afraid, that without an absolute rules siding, the implicit understanding behind fabricate is: Masterworks? Normally, yes. Special Materials that are magically non-magical? No... Maybe... Judge?

[EldonG]

So, by RAW, every world should be Ebberon, then.

RAI?

Maybe not.

[JHFizban]

Aelryinth wrote:

But the master smith with a trait, masterwork items, skilled apprentices, two feats to up his craft mod, and maybe a magic item or two simply CANNOT hope to craft anywhere near as fast as a wizard with this spell.

It's ridiculous.

So? A guy who has practiced his whole life dual-wielding torches can't burn people as fast as a wizard using Fireball, either. Does that mean we need to house rule Fireball to be less effective? It's a case of mundane versus magic, and magic can do this bigger/better/faster than mundane can. Not liking how Craft/Fabricate works is good enough justification for your own house rule, but it doesn't change how it works.

Aelryinth wrote:

So, yes, Fabricate is broken on its face, but at least you can't make masterwork with it.

Except that you can. Fabricate can create masterwork items. See above for details, and be sure to point out your house rules in your posts so that those who are interested in how it works by standard rules don't get confused.

[EldonG]

JHFizban wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

But the master smith with a trait, masterwork items, skilled apprentices, two feats to up his craft mod, and maybe a magic item or two simply CANNOT hope to craft anywhere near as fast as a wizard with this spell.

It's ridiculous.

So? A guy who has practiced his whole life dual-wielding torches can't burn people as fast as a wizard using Fireball, either. Does that mean we need to house rule Fireball to be less effective? It's a case of mundane versus magic, and magic can do this bigger/better/faster than mundane can. Not liking how Craft/Fabricate works is good enough justification for your own house rule, but it doesn't change how it works.

Aelryinth wrote:

So, yes, Fabricate is broken on its face, but at least you can't make masterwork with it.

Except that you can. Fabricate can create masterwork items. See above for details, and be sure to point out your house rules in your posts so that those who are interested in how it works by standard rules don't get confused.

Have fun gaming in Ebberon.

[Avh]

JHFizban wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

But the master smith with a trait, masterwork items, skilled apprentices, two feats to up his craft mod, and maybe a magic item or two simply CANNOT hope to craft anywhere near as fast as a wizard with this spell.

It's ridiculous.

So? A guy who has practiced his whole life dual-wielding torches can't burn people as fast as a wizard using Fireball, either. Does that mean we need to house rule Fireball to be less effective? It's a case of mundane versus magic, and magic can do this bigger/better/faster than mundane can. Not liking how Craft/Fabricate works is good enough justification for your own house rule, but it doesn't change how it works.

Aelryinth wrote:

So, yes, Fabricate is broken on its face, but at least you can't make masterwork with it.

Except that you can. Fabricate can create masterwork items. See above for details, and be sure to point out your house rules in your posts so that those who are interested in how it works by standard rules don't get confused.

You're right.

[EldonG]

...and waiting for the reason that wizards don't absolutely control the economy of the world.

Too stupid?

[JHFizban]

Reasonable players and GMs? Perhaps even the kind who play the game as an adventure rather than an economic simulator?

[Aelryinth]

Nosferatu, I'm afraid that I don't see anything in your darkwood buckler example to back Fabricate being able to make masterwork?

Quality level can refer to using silk instead of hemp instead of vines for a rope. Or using bronze, brass, or raw iron instead of steel for armor.
There is no such thing as a masterwork raw material. There are only items that must be made masterwork, if they are made out of certain substances.

Holy water is a magical non-magical substance. Many alchemical items are magical non-magical substances. Why is Darkwood different from them? Technically speaking, something crafted with the Ironwood spell is a magical non-magical substance.

I honestly don't see any proof whatsoever that suddenly 'a' Crafting check has morphed into 'a Crafting check and a Masterwork check as desired' in Fabricate. If the spell doesn't give it to you, you literally don't get it.
There's no Masterwork Transformation-style language in the spell, either.

All I see with the Darkwood buckler is that it must also be made masterwork. Great! Fabricate can't make one of those, either.

==Aelryinth

[graystone]

EldonG wrote:

...and waiting for the reason that wizards don't absolutely control the economy of the world.

Too stupid?

Cause most wizards don't dream about growing up to be a merchant?

[Aelryinth]

They ain't merchants! They are manufacturers! Get specific!

==Aelryinth

[graystone]

Aelryinth wrote:

They ain't merchants! They are manufacturers! Get specific!

==Aelryinth

How do they destroy the economy if they don't SELL the items they make? Hence, merchants. If they don't then they have a nifty warehouse full of high priced paperweights...

[EldonG]

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

They ain't merchants! They are manufacturers! Get specific!

==Aelryinth

How do they destroy the economy if they don't SELL the items they make? Hence, merchants. If they don't then they have a nifty warehouse full of high priced paperweights...

'Hey, you...yes, you, the guy that talks so well. Everybody else is suffering...you can live well, just sell things for me.'

[EldonG]

Why is it, if magic is so much better at producing everything, that no wizards (LN...maybe LE and/or TN) have ever come together to create the monopoly to rule the economy? I refuse to accept 'they're selfless'...or 'they don't understand these things'...or 'wizards don't want gold'...

If you can't figure out that they simply hire people to handle the day-to-day, don't bother answering, as you obviously have no concept of how a monopolist works...or an economy...

[Aelryinth]

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

[graystone]

EldonG wrote:

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

They ain't merchants! They are manufacturers! Get specific!

==Aelryinth

How do they destroy the economy if they don't SELL the items they make? Hence, merchants. If they don't then they have a nifty warehouse full of high priced paperweights...

'Hey, you...yes, you, the guy that talks so well. Everybody else is suffering...you can live well, just sell things for me.'

So it's the guys that talks that destroys the economy... I hope he at least takes a big cut of that profit. ;)

[graystone]

Aelryinth wrote:

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

So... How much did you spend to get 50% again? Somehow that's seeming less and less like tons of profit and game wrecking economics.

[EldonG]

graystone wrote:

EldonG wrote:

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

They ain't merchants! They are manufacturers! Get specific!

==Aelryinth

How do they destroy the economy if they don't SELL the items they make? Hence, merchants. If they don't then they have a nifty warehouse full of high priced paperweights...

'Hey, you...yes, you, the guy that talks so well. Everybody else is suffering...you can live well, just sell things for me.'

So it's the guys that talks that destroys the economy... I hope he at least takes a big cut of that profit. ;)

Big cut? Take what I offer, or suffer.

[Aelryinth]

EldonG wrote:

Why is it, if magic is so much better at producing everything, that no wizards (LN...maybe LE and/or TN) have ever come together to create the monopoly to rule the economy? I refuse to accept 'they're selfless'...or 'they don't understand these things'...or 'wizards don't want gold'...

If you can't figure out that they simply hire people to handle the day-to-day, don't bother answering, as you obviously have no concept of how a monopolist works...or an economy...

I have a Master's Degree in Economics. I understand very, very well how Economics works.

The reason is willing suspension of disbelief. The problem is that anyone who does basic math can see what Fabricate can do, and that suspension is going to crumble to bits as they bring up exactly the points that you do.

It's very simple, why wouldn't wizards use Fabricate to do exactly what you are describing, and what we are doing?

1) Because Fabricate really doesn't work the way the spell describes.
2) Other wizards are complete idiots and never figured out how to make money outperforming craftsmen at their shticks.
3) Because the DM says so.
4) Because there is a hideous penalty levied on wizards who abuse the economy with Fabricate, only it's not in the spell description. Could range from chain assassination attempts from trade guilds to a divine hammer the size of a city block coming down on you from the God of Smiths. Who knows?
5) Because the player said he won't do that, and so all other wizards don't do that, and so it's unimportant.

Note that option 1 means changing the spell, and the rest mean losing the artificial sense of reality the game is meant to engender.

==Aelryinth

[EldonG]

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

So... How much did you spend to get 50% again? Somehow that's seeming less and less like tons of profit and game wrecking economics.

If I'm selling at 50%, I've undercut every artisan in town...by 50%. That's instant bankruptcy for them, as they have the same materials cost as I do. I produce it instantly...let's be more honest...I CAN sell at 100%, if they can...and if I undercut them, even a little...their whole staff suffers...

[R_Chance]

There's an argument going on here between the "it's just a game" crowd and the "it should make basic sense crowd". I'm with the sense bunch, but it's no real use pursuing the argument...

[Aelryinth]

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

So... How much did you spend to get 50% again? Somehow that's seeming less and less like tons of profit and game wrecking economics.

The general rule is spend 1/3, make 1/2.

So, your challenge is to find something valuable to make in an instant.

Full Plate is 1500 gp. Raw materials 500, sell at discounter for 750.

250 gp/spell. that's 7500 gp/month for 1 Fabricate a day, and 91,000 gp/year of clear profit for spending 1 level 5 spell.

Which is more then the WBL allowed to a PC, let alone an NPC.

Yeah, you could make more money per spell hiring out a teleport, but teleports mean you have to scare up business. Fabricate just means you have to sell to Sigurd's Armor Emporium down the road, who takes bulk orders from distant warlords for all these sets of uncannily matching armor.

===Aelryinth

[Nosferatu]

EldonG wrote:

So, by RAW, every world should be Ebberon, then.

RAI?

Maybe not.

No, for a number of reasons, and possibly for other reasons. That's up to the GM to decide. Nothing I see really stops a wizard from deciding that his/her raison d'etre is to build everything. That's how Baker pretty much designed the Artificer class.

I digress. I was saying that those reasons are up to the GMs when they make their world, and have no bearing on this debate. I merely used Eberron as an illustration of how badly the economy would go, if such a thing happened. In Eberron, while adamantine as a mineral ore may be in extremely short supply, all low-magic items are pervasive, while high magic items are rarer than normally so. Its a perfect example of the consequence of a fabricate-mad wizard, but not the only inevitable conclusion of his consequence: Dark Sun is another, on the opposite end of the spectrum.

On the other hand, as a player using the spell, we're not subject to experience the devaluation of an item, when a caster decides to gut a single economy with armours, and this can seem to be a problem. Mind, the system was designed to chronicle the story of epic adventurers, not the wizards who stay locked in their tower (although that's a stereotypically common NPC), but we do have PC downtimes to deal with. So...

Selling Treasure:

In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.

As a GM you/they/we are the arbiter of if and how item can be sold, at all, and can always stop this painful mistake by saying "The town needs not your armor wares, any longer. They will not buy them." or, "This city can no longer afford to buy your fabricated items, you've mined what geld." You can also argue that the great kingdoms' court wizards are being tasked with the very same job, which allows them to quickly produce as much armour as they need for their armies, but will neither buy yours, nor sell you theirs. You don't need to houserule this answer, and it's a viable solution for players who think this is a money-maker.

Does this mean that I'm admitting that Fabricate is capable of doing what you're accusing it of doing? Yes. Is it the problem that this thread is making it out to be? Only if your game is Markets and Merchants. Crafting and economy are things I like to add in some mechanical detail to my campaigns (simple things like "if <condition>, then multiply or divide article X by constant Y", with conditions like "Great War" multiplying the cost of many magical items, and even mundane weapons, but I do that as a houserule I'm comfortable with making, with tools I employ, similar to a DM screen. I still think there's something wrong about Crafting, and I want a solution to the buying/selling/crafting system that does allow more of a realistic market for the mundane crafter players, because plenty of people I rp with also think of their characters as sometimes being "part-time" adventurers, or even just regular people, who, caught in the unexpected plot train, into the adventure.

A disclaimer I shouldn't have to make: the standard mechanics of the system that are made available to the player are not a representation of the finer details of Golarion's business and trade economy. The only relevance should be what's relevant to the players, which is that the only reason the price of items made by players is 50% of what they buy it for is to clean up the 'carrot' of having item creation cost 50% of regular market price. Start here, and you understand the problem; all items really only cost 50% of what they're listed as; you're either being swindled for +100%, or that's one hefty sales tax. In comes Fabricate, and creates items for 50% of the sale price, and does it almost instantly.

If I must criticise anything, based on this thread, I think the problem is how the DCs work - I think the DC should be factoring in the base cost of the item (so the more expensive it is, the harder it is to make), that mastercraft should scale, based on this DC, instead of being a unique, secondary check against an arbitrary number, and the time it takes should be a factor of both the DC and by how much you beat it by (high DC = high base time, exceeding the DC => cutting down the time).

tl;dr What I'm saying is that Fabricate is fine, but crafting rules aren't.

[Aelryinth]

EldonG wrote:

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

So... How much did you spend to get 50% again? Somehow that's seeming less and less like tons of profit and game wrecking economics.

If I'm selling at 50%, I've undercut every artisan in town...by 50%. That's instant bankruptcy for them, as they have the same materials cost as I do. I produce it instantly...let's be more honest...I CAN sell at 100%, if they can...and if I undercut them, even a little...their whole staff suffers...

Actually, the artisans produce at the same cost and time you do...they simply do it a lot slower.

In the real world, you'd put them out of business simply because you can make things 30x faster then they can. They'd be forced into lower end business, and all pricey armor production would get taken over by wizards.

And sure, they wouldn't want you to do that. That's why they would probably take up a collection and have you murdered. That's how it was handled back in the old days. It was a bad idea to get on the wrong side of trade guilds.

==Aelryinth

[EldonG]

Aelryinth wrote:

EldonG wrote:

Why is it, if magic is so much better at producing everything, that no wizards (LN...maybe LE and/or TN) have ever come together to create the monopoly to rule the economy? I refuse to accept 'they're selfless'...or 'they don't understand these things'...or 'wizards don't want gold'...

If you can't figure out that they simply hire people to handle the day-to-day, don't bother answering, as you obviously have no concept of how a monopolist works...or an economy...

I have a Master's Degree in Economics. I understand very, very well how Economics works.

The reason is willing suspension of disbelief. The problem is that anyone who does basic math can see what Fabricate can do, and that suspension is going to crumble to bits as they bring up exactly the points that you do.

It's very simple, why wouldn't wizards use Fabricate to do exactly what you are describing, and what we are doing?

1) Because Fabricate really doesn't work the way the spell describes.
2) Other wizards are complete idiots and never figured out how to make money outperforming craftsmen at their shticks.
3) Because the DM says so.
4) Because there is a hideous penalty levied on wizards who abuse the economy with Fabricate, only it's not in the spell description. Could range from chain assassination attempts from trade guilds to a divine hammer the size of a city block coming down on you from the God of Smiths. Who knows?
5) Because the player said he won't do that, and so all other wizards don't do that, and so it's unimportant.

Note that option 1 means changing the spell, and the rest mean losing the artificial sense of reality the game is meant to engender.

==Aelryinth

It's simply stuns me that anybody thinks any of those (except for 1) is reasonable.

...unless we assume, as we have all along, that fabricate, by RAI, if not RAW, can't create MW items.

Wizards are still insanely powerful, even if we don't simply hand them the entire economy, lock, stock, and barrel.

[EldonG]

Aelryinth wrote:

EldonG wrote:

graystone wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

ANd hey, the rules say you can always find someone to buy at 50%. If someone wnats to buy from you at 100%, gravy!

==Aelryinth

So... How much did you spend to get 50% again? Somehow that's seeming less and less like tons of profit and game wrecking economics.

If I'm selling at 50%, I've undercut every artisan in town...by 50%. That's instant bankruptcy for them, as they have the same materials cost as I do. I produce it instantly...let's be more honest...I CAN sell at 100%, if they can...and if I undercut them, even a little...their whole staff suffers...

Actually, the artisans produce at the same cost and time you do...they simply do it a lot slower.

In the real world, you'd put them out of business simply because you can make things 30x faster then they can. They'd be forced into lower end business, and all pricey armor production would get taken over by wizards.

And sure, they wouldn't want you to do that. That's why they would probably take up a collection and have you murdered. That's how it was handled back in the old days. It was a bad idea to get on the wrong side of trade guilds.

==Aelryinth

Wizards are notoriously hard to murder...that's...expensive. ;)

[Aelryinth]

The ability to do days and days of highly skilled labor in an instant and turn it into pure monetary gain is what is broken with Fabricate. There is no cost to the spell other then raw material.

Are the crafting rules borked too? Yeah. But Fabricate is definitely not guilt-free here.

==Aelryinth

[EldonG]

Nosferatu wrote:

EldonG wrote:

So, by RAW, every world should be Ebberon, then.

RAI?

Maybe not.

No, for a number of reasons, and possibly for other reasons. That's up to the GM to decide. Nothing I see really stops a wizard from deciding that his/her raison d'etre is to build everything. That's how Baker pretty much designed the Artificer class.

I digress. I was saying that those reasons are up to the GMs when they make their world, and have no bearing on this debate. I merely used Eberron as an illustration of how badly the economy would go, if such a thing happened. In Eberron, while adamantine as a mineral ore may be in extremely short supply, all low-magic items are pervasive, while high magic items are rarer than normally so. Its a perfect example of the consequence of a fabricate-mad wizard, but not the only inevitable conclusion of his consequence: Dark Sun is another, on the opposite end of the spectrum.

On the other hand, as a player using the spell, we're not subject to experience the devaluation of an item, when a caster decides to gut a single economy with armours, and this can seem to be a problem. Mind, the system was designed to chronicle the story of epic adventurers, not the wizards who stay locked in their tower (although that's a stereotypically common NPC), but we do have PC downtimes to deal with. So...

** spoiler omitted **
As a GM you/they/we are the arbiter of if and how item can be sold, at all, and can always stop this painful mistake by saying "The town needs not your armor wares, any longer. They will not buy them." or, "This city can no longer afford to buy your fabricated items, you've mined what geld." You can also argue that the great kingdoms' court wizards are being tasked with the very same job, which allows them to quickly produce as much armour as they need for their...

I see, either refuse to think it through...or be incapable.

Good answer.